The Tikipedia

i see someone already owns tikipedia.com, tikipedia.org and tikipedia.net. i went ahead and bought thetikipedia.com and i already own tikiwonderhour.com (nod to combustible edison). after the thread i started here http://www.tikicentral.com/viewtopic.php?topic=46740&forum=1&35 i thought it would be great if there was a wiki for all things tiki! surely im not the first person to have thought of this but so far one does not exist. i dont have the knowledge in building a wiki for tiki but someone here might? we could either use thetikipedia.com or tikiwonderhour.com. of course thetikipedia.com makes more sense.

thoughts?

Awesome idea! I'd be happy to help in any way I can.

do you know how to build a wiki site?

something else that really gave me the idea is, all the different tiki idol styles. i thought, man it would be cool if there was a database that showed you the tikis, their origins and what they mean.

I'm sending you a PM...

tikipedia.com appears to be dead. i found this in the archives and it looks like it didnt really change much over the years. jason britton if youre reading this, send me a message!

[ Edited by: nomeus 2014-01-14 21:59 ]

On 2014-01-14 18:03, TikiTacky wrote:
I'm sending you a PM...

...and this is how magic happens :tiki:

I'm excited!

this might take a while....have to figure out how to get people to contribute and write articles. if anyone here has ever submitted content to wikipedia, please contact me.

lets keep this thread going for all things tikipedia related

OK, I'm actually comfortable enough now to say this is going to be a thing. :)

We're actually surprisingly far along. Nomeus first posited the idea three days go (!), and we've already got a working website that is starting to fill up with articles and stubs. Of course the last 10% of a project always takes up 90% of the time, but I think we can pretty much guarantee that this thing will be going live relatively soon. And, I've got to say, I think it's going to be pretty awesome. Assuming, of course, we can get people to contribute. :)

[ Edited by: TikiTacky 2014-01-17 10:44 ]

heres a sample of an article i just wrote

That's a good start! I have writing experience, I would love to help out if I can.

The FBI detonated the bomb?

Thanks! Tikitacky has done a tremendous amount of work in a short amount of time. Please send me a pm if you want to contribute to the site.

On 2014-01-19 22:51, Fez Moai wrote:
The FBI detonated the bomb?

According to the article at fbi.gov

Whelp, aside from some housekeeping and tweaking, we feel like we've got things far enough along to go ahead and get people to start playing with it. I'm sure we'll have changes to make, but we need input from actual users first. :wink:

We've added some articles and stubs on all kinds of topics so that people can see how the site is organized well enough to hopefully be able to figure out where (and how!) to create new topics. If something doesn't make sense or you want a new feature, let us know and we'll see what we can do.

With help from the tiki community I think The Tikipedia can play a valuable role that is not currently being filled. Thanks to Nomeus for coming up with the idea!

Please post your comments and thoughts in this thread. We need your input!

Http://www.thetikipedia.com

T-shirts based on vintage tiki matchbooks: TikiTees

[ Edited by: TikiTacky 2014-01-25 16:01 ]

Here here!

How am I to interpret this? Are you making a statement that Tiki has devolved and is dead, and our idea is doomed? Is this a contribution? Is it a pickup line?

can we use the graphic on tikipedia?

Yes and no…it is basically correct, but since Kevin & Jody drew it up from my original design…

..which I hand-drew and embellished with cut & paste dingbats for my 1992 Book of Tiki proposal, my research has crystallized the time line to be more specific:

I have always felt that when looking at 20th Century style periods in fashion and design, the typical decade label ("the 20s","the 50s", etc) does not seem quite accurate. I find styles and fashions to be more alike from 1935 - 1945, or from 1945 - 1955 than from 1940 - 1950.

This concept applies well to Polynesian pop and Tiki, as Don's opened in 1934, WWII ended in 1945, and the real first use of the Tiki as a Polynesian restaurant figurehead did not happen before 1955, and reached its peak around 1965.

So I would amend my chart to that time-line if I could. I have a higher res version of it if you can doctor it that way. Also, if it goes up on the web I would want my "by Sven A. Kirsten" credit under the title in the graphic.

Me posting the chart was just to provide a basic guideline, and to caution you to be more specific, especially in the labeling of what is "Tiki":
The sentence "...Tiki culture originated in Polynesian-themed restaurants in the U.S. such as Don the Beachcomber and Trader Vic's…" is not all wrong, but could be misleading. A better way to put it would be " The foundations of Tiki culture were laid in such Polynesian-themed.." or "…the roots of Tiki culture lay in…" to make clear that early Don's and Vic's were not Tiki. Don really never was: He or the franchise never used logo Tikis or even Tiki mugs, they stayed true to their beachcomber style.

I am not a stickler for this in the general Tiki world where now EVERYTHING is "Tiki". The spreading of it is partially my fault, but also very much due to the fact that Tiki is such a buzzword: Once used, it sticks, and comes of the tongue very easily. So you won't see me running around at Oasis correcting some Rockabilly chicks, but here, at a site like this, the science should remain correct.

[ Edited by: bigbrotiki 2014-01-26 12:48 ]

thank you sven. our generalized definition of tiki was more or less a temporary placeholder until we could tweak it all, which we will be doing for sure. the site is meant to be dynamic and changing and we are always open to the changes.

Thanks very much for your input, and I strongly agree with you. The good news is that anyone has the ability to add or modify the site, and everyone can see the revisions and revise them, revert them, or simply start a discussion about them. I have the homepage locked down (for obvious reasons), but I'd be happy to modify your graphic and post it with credit and copyright. I'll send you a PM with my email address.

One more thing: Currently I am getting all these notices about this really nice page about the ruins of the Coco Palms (nomeus posted it here on TC recently):
http://www.messynessychic.com/2014/01/23/elvis-presleys-abandoned-tiki-paradise/

Of course the big headline is: Elvis Presley’s Abandoned Tiki Paradise

Well, show me a Tiki at the Coco Palms, anywhere. There never were any, not in carved form in the decor, not in the brochures, menus, matchbooks, or anywhere on the large grounds. So WHY would this be called a Tiki Paradise !?

The Coco Palms is truly the perfect proof of my claim that Tiki was a mainland U.S.A. phenomenon: The place just SCREAMS for Tikis, its period and architecture, the large tropical grounds…but for the same reasons Tiki style did not really take off in Hawaii in general, this place remained Tiki-less: Grace Guslander was well aware that part of her Hotel stood on hallowed grounds of the ancient Hawaiian religion and she was sensitive to that. Too close to the source, one could not go as wild as the mainland architects and designers did.

The Coco Palms was a classic, amazing mid-century Polynesian Pop place, and it is now a dream place for the urban archeologist (I bet nomeus would do a great job shooting it), but it is not, and never was, a TIKI paradise.

Ah thanks Sven! As soon as I saw it I thought it would be great to see but it's a little far!

Aloha,

You keep beating that drum, Sven...

On 2014-01-27 07:17, bigbrotiki wrote:

Well, show me a Tiki at the Coco Palms, anywhere.

Primo Kimo wrote...

These are the only tiki images i could find on the (Coco Palm's) grounds. Not the most snuggly tikis, but I think they count.

interesting design and style

*i found a tiki god at the palms!

[ Edited by: nomeus 2014-01-27 08:58 ]

On 2014-01-27 08:27, Phillip Roberts wrote:

Primo Kimo wrote...
These are the only tiki images i could find on the (Coco Palm's) grounds. Not the most snuggly tikis, but I think they count.

No they don't. There is a nice German saying in academia that translates to English as "The Exception proves the Rule". This applies to all sciences. Even in my claim that in mainland Polynesian pop, the Tiki did not appear before around 1955, there are exceptions like the Kalua Room in Seattle:

They used a very cool, cartoony Tiki as the sign, on the menu and on the matchbooks as early as 1953. This just means that they were ahead of their time, and does not negate the fact that the real, wide-spread appearance of Tikis as symbols for Polynesia which constitutes Tiki style happened a couple of years later.

For every finding I publish people will always find exceptions, but if my theories are backed up by 95% historic facts, the 5% that show something different are just that, exceptions. How can anyone in all earnest claim that the Coco Palms, with its time-frame and all its opportunities to use Tikis but NOT doing so, is Tiki Style because of one or two Tiki likenesses found on the grounds.

I am not beating any drum, it is just cold hard research and historic statistics. It has been a widely postulated fact that Don The Beachcomber had to import his Polynesian Pop concepts to Waikiki to give the tourists what they were expecting. So did the others, Trader Vic and Steve Crane. These were all MAINLAND chains.

Exceptions to the rule: The Waikikian, Spencecliff, and Edward Brownlee. But for every Brownlee and every Waikikian, I give you 10 , 20 or more examples of mainland Tiki style. The carvings, the mugs, it all reached a completely new level on the mainland - a level that sufficed to make it into a genre of its own.

All this local pride about Hawaii and the East Coast is silly, the facts are simply that Polynesian Pop AND Tiki were born in California, proliferated here and then spread to the rest of the States. And no, the Mai Tai was not invented in Hawaii, but in San Francisco :)

Serious question: There seems to be a lot of debate as to whether something is "tiki" or not, yet tiki seems to be a generic term at this point for anything Polynesian themed. What is the distinction between saying something is tiki and saying it's Poly-Pop, aside from the fact that they may have used tiki imagery? It seems like splitting hairs, but maybe I'm missing something.

On 2014-01-27 10:53, TikiTacky wrote:
Serious question: There seems to be a lot of debate as to whether something is "tiki" or not, yet tiki seems to be a generic term at this point for anything Polynesian themed. What is the distinction between saying something is tiki and saying it's Poly-Pop, aside from the fact that they may have used tiki imagery? It seems like splitting hairs, but maybe I'm missing something.

You are aiming to write the TIKIPEDIA, and you think it's splitting hairs to differentiate between Polynesian Pop and Pre-Tiki, and the Tiki period !? I thought the aim was to DEFINE Tiki style.

Well, you might as well ride the wave, make the site a party and cocktail site along with many of those documentaries. Fact is before the Book of Tiki came out, many of these places and things were called "Hawaiian" and "Polynesian" and "Tropical". And you know what? They still are - UNLESS they employed the Tiki image in their architecture, design and graphics.

I know people don't like to think, differentiate, or get their bubbles burst. So just continue along the happy path of throwing it all together - it's just supposed to be fun, after all, right ?

Sorry, but I am really tired to explain it, can't somebody else do it, PLEASE !? I have done it way too many times, in fact I just did it in my two lasts posts above, if that does not do it, together with my chart, I dunno…

…the boulder just rolled down again.

[ Edited by: bigbrotiki 2014-01-27 11:22 ]

I happen to agree with Sven on all of this. If it is "tiki" and it is found in Hawaii, it was probably imported there from the mainland....

Hawaii has a lot of Polynesian artifacts....but they are more religious, and historical....too authentic to be "tiki" (tiki as a poly pop phenomena)

I am really into research about the northwestern Hawaiian islands...the OTHER Hawaii..

and to use Nihoa as an example...there were many stone idols found there...but it is not "tiki".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihoa

and from necker island:

The real Polynesia is very far removed from "Tiki" as can be. Tiki, as we know it, is almost a cartoon, Hollywood version of Polynesian culture.....now, that does not stop me from thinking the coco palms was one of the coolest hotels in Hawaii! (Maybe the Hanalei plantation was better) or even stopping me from loving Turtle Bay! Tiki is very narrowly defined by Sven in his book...too narrow for some people...but I totally buy into his explanation. I do think, however, the two sides can mix...my own band is living proof of that...we are both tiki and Hawaiian.....to cite one example....but I would say Martin Denny is more tiki then us! :)

[ Edited by: lucas vigor 2014-01-27 11:21 ]

What Sven seems to be saying is that in order for Tikipedia to become credible and to remain credible it must take those hard questions and must get the answers right.

Sorry for butting in. It is a daunting task to write such a body of knowledge in Tikipedia. We are fortunate to have Sven and others looking over all of our shoulders here on TC.

On 2014-01-27 11:16, lucas vigor wrote:
I happen to agree with Sven on all of this. If it is "tiki" and it is found in Hawaii, it was probably imported there from the mainland....

Hawaii has a lot of Polynesian artifacts....but they are more religious, and historical....too authentic to be "tiki" (tiki as a poly pop phenomena)

Thanks Lucas, but Hawaii also had a thriving tourist souvenir culture, like Coco Joe's and Hip and other manufacturers who made cartoony Tikis. But tourist culture is not unique per se, many places made mementos from tropical paradise, like Cuba, Jamaica, you name it. But nowhere did a tropical pop culture thrive AWAY from the source as it did in American Tiki style.

There were Tikis carved in Hawaii for commercial places like hotels also. But the majority of them were closer to authentic reproductions, and did not get as creative as their mainland versions. Closeness to the source demanded more respect to the originals.

Oh, and about "narrowly defined" in my book :) : But what a horn of plenty, what a well of creativity was mid-century Tiki ! I am just fighting to protect the specialness of that, by making clear what it is and what it is not.

[ Edited by: bigbrotiki 2014-01-27 11:35 ]

On 2014-01-27 11:09, bigbrotiki wrote:

On 2014-01-27 10:53, TikiTacky wrote:
Serious question: There seems to be a lot of debate as to whether something is "tiki" or not, yet tiki seems to be a generic term at this point for anything Polynesian themed. What is the distinction between saying something is tiki and saying it's Poly-Pop, aside from the fact that they may have used tiki imagery? It seems like splitting hairs, but maybe I'm missing something.

You are aiming to write the TIKIPEDIA, and you think it's splitting hairs to differentiate between Polynesian Pop and Pre-Tiki, and the Tiki period !? I thought the aim was to DEFINE Tiki style.

Well, you might as well ride the wave, make the site a party and cocktail site along with many of those documentaries. Fact is before the Book of Tiki came out, many of these places and things were called "Hawaiian" and "Polynesian" and "Tropical". And you know what? They still are - UNLESS they employed the Tiki image in their architecture, design and graphics.

I know people don't like to think, differentiate, or get their bubbles burst. So just continue along the happy path of throwing it all together - it's just supposed to be fun, after all, right ?

Sorry, but I am really tired to explain it, can't somebody else do it, PLEASE !? I have done it way too many times, in fact I just did it in my two lasts posts above, if that does not do it, together with my chart, I dunno...

First of all, I never claimed to be an authority on this. I'm not "writing" the Tikipedia—I set it up and am running it along with Nomeus. We're encouraging people who are knowledgeable about various subjects to contribute. A wiki is by its very nature collaborative, and no single person is in charge (well, I suppose I could delete everyone's posts, but that's counterproductive).

The aim is to be a source for knowledge about everything that makes up what we call "tiki." That includes people, places, things, and concepts. And yes, there will be disagreement about some of the concepts. For an academic, you should know as well as anyone that disagreement is a core part of any academic field. Some things are clearly defined, some are still in discussion.

You complain that no one seems to "get" what tiki is. That is either because it isn't as easily defined as you claim, or you haven't been able to explain it well. I asked whether the only thing that defines tiki is the actual use of a tiki, and the answer seems to be yes ("UNLESS they employed the Tiki image in their architecture, design and graphics.") But what I'm not understanding is why that matters. If people had called it a coconut movement, would we be arguing about who first used coconuts? What about tapa cloth? Should they be called tapa bars? And you say the use of a tiki image defines what is tiki, but then note places that used the image that aren't tiki. Clearly you see a distinction that we don't, and obviously I'm struggling to understand what that is.

It seems to me you have defined very well when tikis started to be used as a visual element, but not why they were so important to the concept, other than being an easily identifiable Polynesian element? There are plenty of elements that make up a tiki bar. What if the bar was decked out in 50s diner theme with vinyl booths, checkered tiled floors, a jukebox, and a tiki. Is it a tiki bar? If a restaurant has palm trees, waterfalls, paintings of hula dancers, waitresses in grass skirts, but no tikis on display is it not a tiki bar?

I'm not trying to be difficult, Sven, but I'm trying to figure out what it is that makes the tiki so centrally important to the tiki concept that we can say Don the Beachcomber had every single element of "tiki style," including a tiki on display, but for some reason it's not tiki. Are you saying that we simply don't call it tiki because tikis weren't popular yet? It seems somewhat arbitrary.

Help me, and everyone else, understand. Clarity is needed, exasperation isn't. If I can get a clear understanding of this I'll be happy to put it on Tikipedia and let other people add to it, disagree with it, or whatever.

EDIT: Added emphasis so people understand how a wiki is supposed to work.

T-shirts based on vintage tiki matchbooks: TikiTees

[ Edited by: TikiTacky 2014-01-27 11:50 ]

Let's see: All the elements of Polynesian pop were there BEFORE Tiki style. They were the stage that the Tiki appeared on. Without the Tiki they would have been BORING, because they had been going on for generations. In Tiki style, all those concepts were pushed to the peak. Tiki style is the culmination of Polynesian Pop. Mid-century modern, non-bamboo places that used Tikis are called Tiki Modern. If Don's used a Tiki, it was an EXCEPTION to its otherwise Beachcomber look. I never said the Kalua Room was not "Tiki" it was Tiki ahead of its time. IF IT SAYS TIKI ON IT, IT SHOULD HAVE TIKI IN IT!

Here's a prize-question: If the Thornton brothers were so inspired by Don The Beachcomber in Chicago that they hired away all its staff and used all its concepts to open their place, WHAT made the Mai Kai "Tiki" as opposed to Don The Beachcomber? Can be answered in one sentence.

On 2014-01-27 11:55, bigbrotiki wrote:
Let's see: All the elements of Polynesian pop were there BEFORE Tiki style. They were the stage that the Tiki appeared on. Without the Tiki they would have been BORING, because they had been going on for generations. In Tiki style, all those concepts were pushed to the peak. Tiki style is the culmination of Polynesian Pop. Mid-century modern, non-bamboo places that used Tikis are called Tiki Modern. If Don's used a Tiki, it was an EXCEPTION to its otherwise Beachcomber look. I never said the Kalua Room was not "Tiki" it was Tiki ahead of its time. IF IT SAYS TIKI ON IT, IT SHOULD HAVE TIKI IN IT!

OK, I think I understand how you're defining it. But you still haven't made clear why the tiki itself was such important an element that it defined the Tiki Era? Couldn't it just as easily have been called the Bamboo Era? Am I understanding correctly that you are claiming that the sole addition of a tiki made poly-pop "unboring" and redefined an entire style?

On 2014-01-27 12:03, bigbrotiki wrote:
Here's a prize-question: If the Thornton brothers were so inspired by Don The Beachcomber in Chicago that they hired away all its staff and used all its concepts to open their place, WHAT made the Mai Kai "Tiki" as opposed to Don The Beachcomber? Can be answered in one sentence.

If I'm understanding you correctly, the answer is "The incorporation of tikis as a design element." Am I getting it?

the way I see it, it is kind of like with the rockabilly scene....

if you are a male rockabilly performer, the pompadour and sideburns are a key part of it....you could be like me, fully able to play the slap bass in a rockabilly style...but without that one element of the rockabilly appearance....I could never be considered a rockabilly bassist!

for rockabilly, soon as you see a guy with a pompadour.....you think "rockabilly"

so with tiki, as soon as you see a tiki statue....you think "tiki". It's one of those key elements that defines something. A lot of lay people think "bamboo" is tiki, in an of itself....but bamboo can be used in Caribbean bar.....

Aloha shirts: Buffett wears them.....need I say more?

:)

This is a very important discussion, and I agree that it needs to be clearly understood. I'm not trying to persuade or dissuade anyone of anything, I am asking questions solely to make sure I understand how concepts are being defined, so that I can then explain them well to others. I appreciate everyone's thoughts and input on this, especially Sven, who I know feels like he has explained it until he's blue in the face. :wink:

I would encourage people to read this thread if they haven't yet. Unfortunately it spiraled out of control and had to be locked, but I think there's a lot of thoughtful discussion contained in it...

http://www.tikicentral.com/viewtopic.php?topic=31087&forum=1

Also I hate to say this, but have any of you read the "Book of Tiki" or "Tiki Modern" ?? (Sorry, it doesn't seem that way). If not, that should be the first prerequisite before starting a Wiki page on Tiki. :)

It seems you do not own any of my books :( You are making me work overtime here.

Tiki became not just a "design element" but a FIGUREHEAD, COMPANY LOGO, TRADEMARK:

By the late 50s/ early 60s it even popped up in Pre-Tiki concepts like "Beachcomber","Trader" or "Bali Hai" which had not used it before:

My god! 15 pages on that thread...and we are no closer to an answer!

No matter what, let's not let the discussion dissuade tiki tacky and nomeus from doing this project! we need a tikipedia!

You ask 100 people on this forum, and you will get 100 different answers! better not ask me, because I still don't consider surf, low brow or rockabilly to be tiki....and all three are very much considered to be tiki by most here!

I doubt we will ever agree.....!!

Book of tiki is a good start, however...it was the first time I ever saw tiki codified.....

On 2014-01-27 12:57, JOHN-O wrote:
I would encourage people to read this thread if they haven't yet. Unfortunately it spiraled out of control and had to be locked, but I think there's a lot of thoughtful discussion contained in it...

http://www.tikicentral.com/viewtopic.php?topic=31087&forum=1

Also I hate to say this, but have any of you read the "Book of Tiki" or "Tiki Modern" ?? (Sorry, it doesn't seem that way). If not, that should be the first prerequisite before starting a Wiki page on Tiki. :)

Thank you for linking to this! The thread is a perfect example of why something like the Tikipedia is needed. The information in that thread is very important, but spread over fifteen pages and ultimately became so unwieldy that it had to be locked. Do stilling it down to the key points and putting them in one spot will save myself and lots of other people (including poor Sven) a lot of heartache.

this is a great thread and sven, i know youre a busy guy so im doubly grateful for you taking the time to chime in!

to echo what tikitacky said, the wiki is great in the sense that it's dynamic. it can be edited and i hope it will be edited by those who are well versed in the subject matter.

let the thread continue!

Well, but the administrators should not be far behind the "well versed". Or have at least have the basic understanding of the concept. To acquire this, this very site recommends:

"The Tiki that Tiki Central focuses on is a mid-century American invention that is Polynesia-inspired. We’re here to discuss classic Tiki, what made it great, how to celebrate it and preserve it today, and how to create and influence new Tiki that isn’t generic, watered down, or misguided. The definitive guide is The Book Of Tiki, and we highly recommend that everyone on Tiki Central get the book and read up."

On 2014-01-27 11:55, bigbrotiki wrote:

IF IT SAYS TIKI ON IT, IT SHOULD HAVE TIKI IN IT!

Words to live by! (Should be the slogan on an officially sanctioned TC shirt) Now if we could only get all the owners of the Florida "Tiki bars" to grasp that simple concept we'd be getting somewhere.