We Like Both Kinds of Music

This wiki article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiki_culture#Music) sez:

"There were two primary strains of this kind of exotica: Jungle and Tiki."

Huh?

How is it that I've been an exotica fan since the late '80s and I never heard of this distinction? Can't tell much of a difference myself. Is this what you-all think, or is this more wiki nonsense? Here's the whole quote:

"Soon came integration of the idea into music by artists like Les Baxter, Arthur Lyman, and Martin Denny, who blended the Tiki idea through jazz augmented with Polynesian, Asian, and Latin instruments and "tropical" themes creating the Exotica genre. This music blended the elements of Afro-Cuban rhythms, unusual instrumentations, environmental sounds, and lush romantic themes from Hollywood movies, topped off with evocative titles like "Jaguar God", into a cultural hybrid native to nowhere.

There were two primary strains of this kind of exotica: Jungle and Tiki. Jungle exotica was a Hollywood creation, with its roots in Tarzan movies and further back, to William Henry Hudson's novel Green Mansions. Les Baxter was the king of jungle exotica, and spawned a host of imitators while opening the doors for a few more genuine articles such as Chaino, Thurston Knudson, and Guy Warren.

Tiki exotica was introduced with Martin Denny's Waikiki nightclub jungle noises cover of Baxter's Quiet Village. Tiki rode a wave of popularity in the late 1950s and early 1960s marked by the entrance of Hawaii as the 50th state in 1959 and the introduction of Tiki hut bars and restaurants around the continental United States."

The great thing about exotica is that you really can't totally define it. Nobody will ever really get any definition totally right as it has so much flexibility built into it, and every listener has their own bias. That's partly why I enjoy it as a framework to compose within!

best,

My take: It's an artificial yet technically correct distinction in that wiki article, which is agreed on by many here.

I don't agree, of course.

The idea is that Martin Denny and Arthur Lyman were based in Hawaii and did polynesian themed albums mainly, but removed the ukelele and steel guitar from their sound and added exotic percussion instead.

Whereas the music of Les Baxter and Chaino and others was not specifically polynesian themed, but more a world theme...including Africa and Latin.

For me, all mid century exotica has the same intent and sentiment. I count albums such as Stan kenton's "Cuban Fire" to be exotica, for example.

In those days, they didn't have labels for this and that like we do now. All of this music (and the restaurants and drinks and cuisine) were designed for the urban savage and they didn't say "TIKI" was a style or distict from any other exotic concept the way this forum does.

I don't remember the name of it, but there is a restaurant someone posted here from maybe new mexico or colorado that was mexican themed, and was very well done with rocks and mountains and waterfalls, much like the famed "TIKIS" in Monterrey park. Nothing to do with tiki, but built with the same intent and attitude and designed for the same urban savage that went to a tiki bar or restaurant.

Edit: here it is:

http://www.tikicentral.com/viewtopic.php?topic=40915&forum=6&hilite=casa bonita

My point is most of the distictions between what is tiki and what is not tiki are based on someone's opinion or interpretation. Back in the day, there were no distictions really. It was all mid-centurty culture and I doubt the word "Poly Pop" ever came up. Likewise, "exotica" did not have any other labels such as "tiki" or "Jungle".

[ Edited by: Lucas Vigor 2013-09-12 08:11 ]

Let's not forget that the Exotica Revival predated the Tiki Revival by a decade. When the term Exotica was first coined, there was no such genre as Tiki yet. Even though its name was based on the Martin Denny albums, the 90s Exotica revival cast a much wider net stylistically, represented by such magazines as "Ungawa":
http://www.vampalicious.co.uk/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=301

As I wrote in Tiki Magazine, there is a similar concept inherent in each genre:

"Looking back at the evolution of the Tiki revival from its beginnings in the artistic underground to its return into popular culture, the movement can be divided in three phases, of with each was a different form of the same basic principle: The multi-layered exotic experience.
1980s - 1990s EXOTICA: The multi-layered SOUND experience
mid-1990s - 2000s The TIKI LOUNGE: The multi-layered VISUAL experience
mid 2000s - 2010s The Tiki COCKTAIL: The multi-layered TASTE experience"

Happily, nowadays we can enjoy all three in unison, as it should be :)

[ Edited by: bigbrotiki 2013-09-15 08:02 ]

Well, I mean, if Wikipedia says so, it must be true, right?

I've never heard it explained that way, but it does make SOME sense. There's always been some "exotica" music that I've felt comfortable mixing with my Hawaiian LPs and some "exotica" that just seems too far afield to mix in. And I've also often felt many "Latin" recordings done by American/European orchetras & groups can slip into the "exotica" realm. Anything where they are somewhat "overemphasising" certain elements like percussion or unusual instruments & chord progression..but not really representations of the true local music culture.

Of course, as has been said, it's interesting but kind of "water under the bridge" since none of these terms were used at the time anyway. I guess people living in the Rennaisance didn't walk around saying "I'm living in the Rennaisance Period..." :)

Have to say, when I saw the title of this thread, and even after reading the first post, I just kept thinking about this movie scene; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSZfUnCK5qk

I remember a well known musician in the Tiki community once commented to me that he really didn't consider the music of Les Baxter as "Exotica". Baxter's orchestral styled arrangements (some of it literal movie soundtracks, i.e. "Sacred Idol") was in a different vein that of the smaller combo (quartet?) music of Martin Denny, Arthur Lyman, and Gene Rains.

So maybe we can say that "Exotica" is small combo music meant to be played live in a nightclub setting and "Jungle" is orchestral studio music.

I actually like that description better then the wikipedia article.

Of course, as has been said, it's interesting but kind of "water under the bridge" since none of these terms were used at the time anyway.

I don't think anyone was using the word "tiki" to apply to music back then, but "exotica" was certainly used. For example, the liner notes to the Chico Hamilton LP "Gongs East" refer to the title track as "exotica." Similarly, Columbia inner sleeves from the early 1960s list an "exotica" category, although many of the things they list are not what we would classify as "exotica" today. So, the term was being used in a generic way even back then.

I think we can all agree that ground zero for "Exotica" as a music style
was Mid Century Hollywood, Calif.

Here's that amazing period article which The Jab discovered that documented Exotica from the perspective of the time rather than the Lounge Revival...

http://www.tikicentral.com/viewtopic.php?topic=35199&forum=11

Yup, that article was really a fantastic find: Not only did it show that there were people during that time (even if only a few) that thought about "Exotica" as a genre by listing all the now accepted key players of the style (Marty, Arty, and Les). It also mentions a slew of singular classics like "White Goddess" and "Exotic Island" (which are considered "discoveries" by the Exotica revivalists), PLUS it casts a similarly wide net as the modern Exotica revival does, by not only including orchestral stylings like Henry Mancini and Andre Kostelanetz, but also Hawaiiana, Latin, and the Space Age sounds of Russ Garcia.

If I would not have seen this article with my own eyes, I would have believed it to be some clever retro-engineered fake, it so perfectly captures what was thought to be an 80s/90s hipster discovery.

Now John-O, you find something like that that will describe a pop culture genre called "Tiki" in it's own heyday so completely, and I will never again claim to have defined it! :D

On 2013-09-16 16:45, Atomic Tiki Punk wrote:
I think we can all agree that ground zero for "Exotica" as a music style
was Mid Century Hollywood, Calif.

While it may have crystalized with Les Baxter - in mid-Century Hollywood - there are certainly earlier examples in classical, jazz, film and pop music.

[ Edited by: OnyaBirri 2013-09-17 05:10 ]

Totally agree w/ OnyaBirri. Check out some Ottorino Respighi and his tone poems. Big inspiration for me as a composer. if we ignore the design of the album cover and just listen to the music, I think the "beginning" is definitely another gray area of exotica and up to the listener to decide for themselves!

mr. ho

Yes.

And check out these two seldom-recorded Villa-Lobos chamber works from the mid-1920s. The price is right:

http://www.amazon.com/Nonetto-Heitor-Villa-Lobos/dp/B001CC7DPA/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1379420337&sr=8-2&keywords=villa+nonetto

They are sonic and textural templates for both Tamboo and the Sacred Idol.

"Lotus Land" dates from 1905. Here it is as played by composer Cyril Scott. Nearly every "exotica" version of this tune stays very close to the original:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7dAhrr7Vlk

And there are so many film scores from the first half of the century - Miklos Rozsa's "Thief of Baghdad" and "The Jungle Book," Max Steiner's "King Kong," the list goes on...

On 2013-09-17 05:08, Mr. Ho wrote:
Totally agree w/ OnyaBirri. Check out some Ottorino Respighi and his tone poems. Big inspiration for me as a composer. if we ignore the design of the album cover and just listen to the music, I think the "beginning" is definitely another gray area of exotica and up to the listener to decide for themselves!

mr. ho

There was a great locked thread where we discussed the classical to exotica influence:

http://www.tikicentral.com/viewtopic.php?topic=36033&forum=11&vpost=521760&hilite=debussy

On 2013-09-16 21:26, bigbrotiki wrote:
PLUS it casts a similarly wide net as the modern Exotica revival does, by not only including orchestral stylings like Henry Mancini and Andre Kostelanetz, but also Hawaiiana, Latin, and the Space Age sounds of Russ Garcia.

I would argue this point. Nothing casts as wide a net as today's exotica revival does. Today's "exotica" revival includes punk, garage rock, new wave, surf and country....(or at least there are many bands where those styles are the main influence, and not really exotica...except in the use of "tiki" imagery) yet manages to exclude hawaiiana completely. The irony of disregarding some of this source material is frustrating to me.

As I always say, tiki people say they like exotica....but some times I doubt how much....if you have to water down and dillute something to make it more easily digested......

Some times I compare it to the 90's swing revival....as seen in the movie "swingers".....to me, those bands (like Big bad Voodoo Daddy) were only copying the kitsche excess of the big band era (the wild gene krupa/buddy rich style drumming, zoot suits, etc) hyping the crime jazz aspects while ignoring a lot about what made the original big band music great.....

my two cents, of course.

Well, that's what I'm talking about - the wide net of the term exotica. That's why I don't really understand the need for the 'jungle' and the 'tiki' distinction. It's all exotica to me. Just as I don't get the dif between all of those alleged sub-genres of metal, or techno. Like when I was a kid, it was all New Wave. What the hell's the dif between "chillwave,' 'dark wave,' 'minimal synth' etc? (Don't answer that, I'm being rhetorical!)

(Oh, and much thanks for that article, and the Stan Kenton tip)

Oh, one more thing....Sven pointed out mancini..

If you are into tiki and want to check out Mancini, the soundtrack to the movie Hatari is amazing!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKJzMzf7TVE

On 2013-09-17 10:51, MrFab wrote:
Well, that's what I'm talking about - the wide net of the term exotica. That's why I don't really understand the need for the 'jungle' and the 'tiki' distinction. It's all exotica to me. Just as I don't get the dif between all of those alleged sub-genres of metal, or techno. Like when I was a kid, it was all New Wave. What the hell's the dif between "chillwave,' 'dark wave,' 'minimal synth' etc? (Don't answer that, I'm being rhetorical!)

(Oh, and much thanks for that article, and the Stan Kenton tip)

I also find the Sub Genre & Sub,Sub Genre labels baffling, how many kinds of "Metal" are they?

Slow Metal,Speed Metal,Thrash Metal,Progressive Metal,Black Metal,Death Metal,Grindcore,Doom Metal,Folk Metal
Melodic Death Metal,Nu Metal,Metalcore,Gothic Metal,Post-Metal,Stoner Metal,Hardcore,Mathcore,Ambient Black Metal
Deathcore,Groove Metal,Brutal Death Metal,Industrial Metal,Alternative Metal,Post-Hardcore,Power Metal
Sludge Metal,Thrash Metal,Symphonic Metal,Technical Death Metal,Modern Melodic Death Metal & Heavy Metal!

I saw all these labels in a local record store
WTF! & I hate METAL, but that's just me, I even saw "Folk Punk" what an oxymoron! (now I am angry!)
one cancels the other out! this cannot exist, I need my meds!

Damn you Lucas! I blame you for this! you damn dirty Ape! No Hope! there is no hope...... :)

Edited for excessive ranting and also to remove some drool.

[ Edited by: Atomic Tiki Punk 2013-09-17 14:51 ]

I am a sociopath, what do you expect! :)

WTF! & I hate METAL, but that's just me...

No, it's not just you. It's been a colossal joke since "Spinal Tap" was filmed.

Agreed. That movie was the final nail in the coffin for me, as regards listening to rock music.

The whole "I would like to perform an acoustic set of my solo songs with the London symphony orchestra" was enough to kill it for me.

:-/
Haters

So Jeff from that list, what kinds of Metal do you like?

I know you are not asking me.....but let me put my answer out there:

In the late 70's early 80s, while I was more into prog rock, new wave and punk then anything else...I had a soft spot in my heart for AC/DC and Priest....

The 80's glam rock/hair farmer/ LA Scene put me off completely. Never understood it, or why anyone else would like it!

Since then, the style has fractured into too many sub-styles to even keep track of. The ultra modern prog and math metal...is ruined by the addition of "cookie monster" style vocals....even though the music itself might be thematically interesting.

On another forum I used to be a member of, a forum for bassists...many of us would argue with the young metal heads who were always touting modern metal...I tried to keep an open mind and listen to the links they posted....

Only a few bands struck me as being listenable......most were in a style called "Djent"....which features ultra low-tuned instruments and a peculiar staccato delivery......I found a few bands I actually liked, one being "Animals as leaders"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_-0AS1G25I

I like a few of their songs because they remind me of RUSH. The guitarist is probably one of the best out there, and they are 100% intrumental....this is music I sometimes play in my car when I am off to the gym...to get me amped up and ready to lift.

But to get back on subject, I agree there are too many distinctions in music....

I don't separate Tiki or exotica out from other styles from that era as much as some do. To me, it's all "mid century easy listening music derived from Jazz".

[ Edited by: lucas vigor 2013-09-18 12:53 ]