Tropical Gardens with Hardy Plants

I read on Ona Tiki's Tiki House Remodel thread that someone wished they could grow tropical plants in their zone. Well....

Just so happens there is a book that tells you what plants (with a tropical look) will grow in your area.

It's Tropical Garden Style with Hardy Plants by Alan Hemsley. It's a tad expensive but worth every dime.

This book goes through the plants (trees, climbers, lily-like, palms, ferns, etc) and tells you exactly what you need to know for growing them in your area. For example:

Brahea (blue fan palm) will tollerate up to a 0 to 4c temperature needs full sun and is evergreen. It has arching long leaves. Remarkable blueish tint. Takes quite a long time to mature. Drought tollerant. Not good in pots.

Thanks for the heads up. It's HERE on Amazon. Used for $16.50. Just what I need to plan a tropical garden here in Tennessee. And then some place to sell me the plants...

Hey Thanks! I have been day dreaming about a new garden that I'd like to install, and had wanted to go as tropical as possible for my frosty zone 5.
Thanks for letting us know that there might be hope for us too!

Aloha, as far as going for a tropical look, Home Depot (outside garden area) is actually a good place to take a look at what can make it in your particular area and they do have a one year plant guarantee. Just keep in mind when buying plants from nurseries they have been grown under optimal conditions and generally under shade cloth so once you put them out they tend to get thrashed.
But if you follow the link below, Stokes tropicals, they ship every place and they have all sorts of amazing Tropical stuff. The reason I bring them up is in their “Bananas you can grow” book they claim Musa basjoo (a variety of banana) can tolerate temperatures below -20’ (-29’C) with mulch and protection. They claim some varieties can grow and fruit in zone 7 with no protection, others are small enough to keep in containers and you can move them in for the winter.
The website has tons of info, pictures and a USDA zone map if you don’t know where your paradise falls.

Bosko

http://www.stokestropicals.com/

[ Edited by: TIKIBOSKO on 2005-02-17 12:58 ]

I used to get the Stokes Tropicals catalog. Last one I got in 2001 was $7.95 and they (used to) refund that with your first order. Fun catalog to look thru, about 135 pages, and they carry specialty plant foods specific for your bananas, Heliconias, Gingers, etc.

On 2005-02-17 12:57, TIKIBOSKO wrote:
Just keep in mind when buying plants from nurseries they have been grown under optimal conditions and generally under shade cloth so once you put them out they tend to get thrashed.

A most important lesson.

For color, buy orchids (phelenthropis (sp?) or cynbidiums) shoud be available year round, and add them to the garden as annuals.

I also recommend the foiliage (non-fruiting) green bananas. They grow very quickly, and are hardy and do not require as much sun. With large, beautiful canopies, they resemble coconut trees.

Split Leaf Pheledendrom and Bird of Paradise are also hardy.

The red bananas are more finicky and need sun.

I have not had good luck with Hibiscus, not enough direct sun, and the winter has ended by coconut palm hopes.

There is no such thing as a House Plant. There are plants that do OK inside, but plants have been around longer then Houses. It's an evolutionary thing.

[ Edited by: Chip and Andy 2009-02-23 10:32 ]

As far as I know there is only one coconut palm in Calif. that has grown outside to full maturity. It's in Newport Beach at the Crab Cooker. I had no success even growing one inside, so I gave up. Next try, move to Hawaii.

Don't forget Bromiliads. They are in lots of sizes and are very tropical looking. I buy them at WalMart for $4 or $9 depending on the size. Very hardy and do well inside. Best of all, when they're done blooming they generally gift you with one or more new plants!

Best thing I have found is to locate a local nursery, know what you're asking for by it's botanical name (take a picture if you can) and ask the nursery people if they can order it for you. Once they know what your plan is and that you've done a little homework they will help you set up and keep your tropical garden alive.

I live in the Pacific Northwest and my local nursery directed me to a topical nursery in Tacoma. They've got all sorts of stuff growing outside so I know it's hardy!

Up here I'm in a zone 9 micro-climate, but it still gets a little chilly in the winter. Usually no colder than -10C(14F).

In my backyard I grow:

Purple Taro in the pond - but my dog just pulled it out and ate the tuber!(Poi Dog?)

Windmill Palm(they grow great up here)

Hardy ginger in yellow and white

Bamboo "green buddha"(many of them do well in colder climates)

Canna Lilies - all types

I keep my Monstera inside, cuz I'm too chicken to risk it outdoors.

I've got a hankering for one of those "Musa Basjoo" Bananas, it may be an addition this year!

If you've seen Puamana & Selector Lopaka's backyard Bali Hai, you know how great tropicals can look in the North!

(edited to fix the link)

[ Edited by: Tikiwahine on 2005-02-18 11:09 ]

I live in SoCal and have had good success with some tropical plants I put in about this time last year: several colors of Hibiscus, Plumeria, Red Banana, a Dwarf Banana (forgot the type), King Palm, etc. The main planting location is in the part of the yard that has full sun from late morning to near sunset. Also, there is a block wall alongside that helps protect everything from the cold winter wind. Only thing missing are some tikis.

On 2005-02-17 18:00, christiki295 wrote:

For color, buy orchids (phelenthropis (sp?) or cynbidiums) shoud be available year round, and add them to the garden as annuals.

Phalenopsis (moth) orchids will die if you keep them outdoors in most places. They require specific levels of light, humidity and temperature. I should know -- I've killed enough of 'em!

Cymbidiums generally are OK outdoors; be sure to follow the directions that come with the plants.

Ive been into palms and cycads for about 7 years now.

Ive planted well over 50 trees in my yard.

For southern cal near the coast nothing looks more tropical than a howea forsterina aka "kentia" palm tree. the cousin Howea belmoreana is great too. Tad smaller and slower.

They grow to perfection here and resemble mini coconut tree. Near the coast they take full sun inland they may fry a bit in the hot sun. They can be found at Home Depot in the indoor section. These are shade grown so it might be best to plant in part shade or move pot into sun slowly. Plants in pots generally dont like full sun so be careful.

There are many other palms that that are great but less commonly found. Try http://www.junglemusic.com in leucadia.

[i]

If you've seen Puamana & Selector Lopaka's backyard Bali Hai, you know how great tropicals can look in the North!

I'm swooning! You can't see it...but I am!

---

(edited to fix the link)

[ Edited by: Tikiwahine on 2005-02-18 11:09 ]

On 2005-02-18 11:08, Tikiwahine wrote:
Up here I'm in a zone 9 micro-climate, but it still gets a little chilly in the winter. Usually no colder than -10C(14F).

In my backyard I grow:

Windmill Palm(they grow great up here)

Bamboo "green buddha"(many of them do well in colder climates)

Canna Lilies - all types

I've got a hankering for one of those "Musa Basjoo" Bananas, it may be an addition this year!

---

(edited to fix the link)

[ Edited by: Tikiwahine on 2005-02-18 11:09 ]

Ms Wahine - I too have the Windmill palm and it is pretty hardy (I had to wrap the base when it got too cold). I also have several of the Canna Lille, they are fairly hardy and like the Banana if the trunk isn't wrapped, will get knocked to the ground and come back. My Musa's where ravaged two winters ago and came back with a vengence last year! From what I have read - most Bamboo is rather hearty. I have Black Bamboo and it is non the worse for wear after quite a few frosts this last year. Fatsia's are fairly hearty at least to Z8. very tropical in appearence.

I just picked up a book this last weekend at the Garden show here in town called "Big Leaves for Exotic Effect" by Stephen Giffith (2003). He is from the UK and most of the book is about hearty exotics. Check it out if you get a chance! Hope to see you all at the NW Tiki Crawl in June!!

Hey Maori Man!
I've had my little windmill palm for two years, and will be transplanting it to the middle of the front yard soon! It'll be the center of attention out there.

I'm happy to hear your bananas came back, I've always been a little wary of them. Now that I know they'd do ok, I'm on the trail of a good specimen.

I'm a big fan of black bamboo and have had a co-worker offer me some of hers.(yay!)

I've always loved fatsias, I totally forgot about them. My Dad has a huge one beside his front porch, they sure look prehistoric!

Gunnera "manicata" is another great plant that does well in the northwest. HUGE leaves, dangerous looking, very striking. Here's a picture of one:

I will DEFINITELY check out that book! It sounds like it's just what I need to continue the tropical transformation that I have only just begun! Muhahaha!

Thanks, and we'll see you in June!

Just found the book at lunchtime, a garden shop close to where I work happened to have a copy at 20% off! You know what I'll be reading this afternoon!

Dove into it last night - very insightful and a lot of good info! I recommend it to anyone who is thinking of planting "exotic" looking foliage in a sub-tropic climate!

For those of us in the Northwest, here's a place to check out, Raintree Nursery in Morton, WA (off of I-5, not far from Centralia/Chehalis).
http://www.raintreenursery.com/
I first ran across them when searching around to see if it's possible to grow lemon and lime trees around here (the answer is yes). Haven't made a purchase yet, but I'm keeping it on my "to do eventually" list.

I haven't made the trip but I hear Hasagawa Nursery in Woodland Wa. (just South of Longview) is pretty good. Hey Rumballs - you might want to check out the Home and Garden Show going on at the Expo Center this coming weekend (shit I sound like a commercial). I went the to the Yard and Garden show this last weekend and saw a couple of Cirtrus trees there for sale (not to mention the 3 1/2' Ku Tiki I purchased nicely carved out of a Coconut tree - Heavy as HELL!!)!

Thanks for the tip on the other place!

[ Edited by: Maori_man on 2005-02-22 17:14 ]

[i]On 2005-02-19 04:31, gonzo wrote:
For southern cal near the coast nothing looks more tropical than a howea forsterina aka "kentia" palm tree. the cousin Howea belmoreana is great too. Tad smaller and slower.

Aloha, Gonzo,

How tall does the Kentia grow?

Does it get taller than this? http://www.seedworld.com.au/images/kentia.jpg

It's tough in the northeast to find tropical looking plants that will grow here, but every year they are coming out with so many new varieties of plants from gene splicing,hopefully in a few years they can come up with zone5/6 palm trees

Anybody have experience with tropical gardening in zone 7?

I'm interested in cultivating some oranamental banana trees, of which there are a couple varieties that are hardy in this zone. I'd really like to cultivate some edible fruit-bearing bananas, but don't think it's possible in zone 7. I know I should post this to a local gardening forum, but figured somebody here might have experience with exotics in Zone 7. Anybody?

Banana "Musa Basjoo" is hardy down to zone 6a, and Windmill palm down to zone 7a. Several varieties of Taro(Colocasia) are hardy down to 7b, and lots of bamboos will do well.

I'm sure there are many other plants that will work in your area! Good luck and have fun!

As a member of MSN's Subtropical Gardening forum and Garden Web's Tropicalesque Garden forum, this is subject that comes up all the time. In areas farther north than zone 8, there is not much that you can call "tropical" that will live in the ground year round, but people have been digging up the roots of cannas, callas, dahlias, four o'clocks, gladiolias, caladiums and tuberous begonias and storing them for the winter since Victorian times.Other tropicals can be kept in pots and stored dormant in a basement or warm garage.(anywhere dark and dry that they won't freeze)If you want to create a truly hardy tropical looking landscape look to two places, Japanese gardens and the northern woods. Under high branched broadleafed trees try bamboo, large leafed rhododendron, small dogwoods, azaleas and vibernum to make a great backdrop. (dogwoods, azaleas and rhododenrons will be finished blooming before the tropicals come out) Add smaller broadleafed, ferny or grass like flowering or foliage plants like hardy cyclamen,European ginger, bergenia, lirope, mondo grass, japanese anemone, hostas, coral bells, bleeding hearts, cordalys, spiderwort, leopard plant, hardy orchids and other woodland plants for a lush look. Any fern will add to the lushness of the landscape, but leave some spaces empty for true tropicals. In full sun try ginko trees (these ancient survivors lived with the dinosuars and still look good in a tropical setting)or sumac. There are hardy perenial hibiscus that will come back year after year and don't forget the hardy shrub hibiscus...Rose of Sharon, some varieties have flowers that are hard to tell apart from the tropical ones. Even hollyhocks (a hibiscus relative)can look good. Also in full sun try castor oil beans, there are many colored and varigated ones and they grow huge in one summer. Other large growing, hot colored annuals (most of our annual garden plants are actually originally from the tropics as opposed to most periennials)can be used too, just avoid single daisy types and others that have a strong association with cottage gardens. The more unusual looking the better. Lilies are treasured all over the world including the tropics. In this case the bigger the better. Even roses can add to the look if the foliage is lush and the flowers are in hot pinks, oranges and reds like 'Tropicana'.
Then when the weather is warm enough, plant your stored tropical bulbs and sink your stored potted tropicals in the spaces you have left for them in your design. Inexpensive houseplants like areca palms can be used as annuals and tossed at the end of the summer if needed. Palms, and bananas scream "tropical" so be sure to add at least one or two. Most palms can be over wintered as housplants and bananas can be stored dormant.
In the fall when the tropicals and annuals are gone you will still have a largely evergreen landscape to enjoy all winter and a colorful spring.

forgot, elephant ears, alocasia, colocasia or taros, no matter what you call them, they add a tropical touch right away. Most can be dug and stored or kept dormant in a pot over winter. If bananas are too hard for you to store, there is a huge canna called Canna musifolia (banana leafed canna) that can be dug up and stored like any other canna, but these babies can grow to 15 feet in one summer. oh and never forget impatiens and coleas, my two favorite shade plants. Look for less common colors and larger size varieties to avoid looking like every other shade garden.
Most tropical plants grow big and fast . There are ornimental and varigated varieties of sweet potato, corn, millet, rhubarb and other food plants that can give the scale needed to look "tropical" in a few weeks.

A great resource for all things palm is "jurassic palms"
http://www.jurassicpalms.com/species.html

They have access to palms that will tolerate sub zero. (Algierian Palm?) The website has handy photos and specs about what will live where.

I'm a big advocate of Tasmainan and Australian Tree Ferns, as well as the anciant Aurancanias. (Monkeypuzzle, Bunyabunya and Norfolk Pine) These bad boys will give a prehistoric/Dr Suess look whereever they are planted.

Kumquats can give a cool effect too, with the glossy leaf, and strange fruit. The Dwarf variety can live in pots, and be brought in if it's really cold.

Certain types of Yucca/Palm type of plants require little care and can grow in very cold weather. (Scotland)

Go visit a Botanical Garden near where you live, and chat up the workers...Tell them you NEED plants to drink under and you need their help.

For those of you in the NW, you also have this resource for bamboo. http://www.bamboogardenswa.com/

Now, I live in Maine, and while I finally have a yard I can grow stuff in, (I have been a renter until now) I have poor drainage and it hasn't stopped raining in ages! My back yard looks like a pond.

But when things dry out, I will be keeping my eyes on this thread.

--SBiM

this subjuect seems to come up every so often here, so here's a link to a response (by me Laney)a couple years ago with some great links to palm and cycad galleries too!

http://www.tikicentral.com/viewtopic.php?topic=3358&forum=1&vpost=30798

Geez, looking at those old pictures of my yard is funny....it is quite over grown now, all the rains have made my giant birds go crazy and fill that back corner, two tall ones have grown out across the pool and I'll have to carefully remove them, yipes

[ Edited by: eel on 2005-05-23 09:34 ]

I'm in zone 5 and have had some success with many different tropicals. I'm currently giving my first Dwarf Cavendish Banana a go in a container. Yesterday was the first full day in the sun and I think it went into a little shock as it has been in a greenhouse and then my house for the last few weeks. But now with a little more water it seems to have bounced back.

For the upper midwest, I agree with keeping the more fragile in containers and bringing them out during the warmer months. Bringing them back in for the winter is less hassle that way too. Over the last 5 years I have kept Bird of Paradise, Cane Palms, Yucca, Sago Palms and Pygmy Date palms year round. Never much success with Fan palms and Majesty Palms... they seem to be a bit more touchy. Failed miserably at keeping plumeria going. Have had success with Hibiscus outdoors during summer, then they tend to go dormant indoors for me in the fall and winter. Last year in spring it came back to life though.
On the way home from Hukilau I picked up a coconut palm but that didn't last long... I either overwatered it or it got too dry.

I have found that a tough part of keeping some tropicals going in the Midwest over the winter is the lack of humidity in the air... during the winter heating the air gets very dry. I tend to mist my plants at least daily, have a table fountain going or use a humidifier on for a while nearby. Oh yea... and there is the little problem with the 2 days of sun we get during the winter. I hang a grow tube over the sun starved plants and have that on for a few hours on gloomy days.

I thought I'd share some of my garden pictures with you all. I live just outside of Chicago in Zone 5. Most of my plants will have to winter indoors, but I think it will just add more of a tropical look to my tiki decor.
I did have to throw in some regular old annuals for color, and I cheated a bit by adding a very colorful and tropic looking Swiss Chard.
For the tropicals I have palms, Bird of Paradise, Calla lilies, several Taro, Philodendrons (sp?) extra hardy large elephant ears etc.
Watering has been difficult as we are in a drought right now with a watering ban. a good organic soil base, mulching and hand watering is so far keeping everything going.
Anyone familar with Lake Sufers work will notice a couple of his fine tikis in the mix as well as some coconut heads and NG artifacts.I also bought a nice rock formation trickle fountain from Home depot.
Tomorrow when the Garden club stops by I'll wear one of my tiki shirts so I match my mannequins in the front window and crank up Denny Martin :)

AWESOME exotica!! You garden is perfect! And lookit all the tikis! sweeeet.

Is everything in pots? Or will you dig up and store tubers in the fall?

I planted an elephant ear tuber this January and it's just starting to put up 4 big shoots, I hope it's leaves arrive before the first frost!

Great idea with the swiss chard, and I must get me a bird of paradise at some point. Sooo pretty.

That's a garden to be proud of.

-Tw

A month or so old on this photo... things are blooming again so I'll get a new picture this week...

Having great success with the Banana... the hot and humid summer here in WI this year allows it to grow a new leaf every week... Bird of Paradise is growing like mad... it has been growing in a pot for 3 years now. Multiple Canna plants going too with new blooms every 2 weeks... just added Hibiscus and Ficus... and the Cycad I picked up in Florida last fall is growing like mad... just grew 3 feet in a week!

They'll winter indoors... but that's a ways off yet...

exotica59.... that's a nice looking tiki! :wink:

Thanks again... hope you're enjoying it!

[ Edited by: Lake Surfer 2005-07-17 22:08 ]

This post inspired me to do a little shopping on Amazon -- in the mail yesterday: Tropical Plants for Home and Garden by William Warren, Paradise Found by Norman Winter, and Landscaping with Tropical Plants by Sunset Mag. I stayed up late flipping through these and dreaming of my garden...
The Warren book is gorgeous with lots of great photos but no info on the plants or design ideas (other than the included pictures) -- beautiful coffee table book though. The Sunset book is helpful with good photos -- chapters include tropicals for every clime, designing with tropical flair, getting started, summer maintenance and winter care, and an A-Z sampler of plants. But my fave book of the three is Paradise Found. LOTS of plants listed with pictures of each, info on growing zones, how and where to plant, growing tips, recommended varieties and landscape applications. Also chapters on container gardening, cold protection, soil prep, and peppers (with some recipes even!).
So now that we've ripped out the rock gardens and started building retaining walls and patios, I'm trying to figure out what to plant where. I've already got 8 hibiscus in pots that survived last winter, plus a bird of paradise and some other assorted plants that are waiting for a home.
I'm in Castro Valley -- I think Sunset zone 14 and USDA zone 9 or 10? We have a small squarish yard in front and a rectangle in the back (18 X 60). I keep looking at everyone else's photos for ideas...

We're working on our (very!) squarish, flat backyard lot and are taking a lesson from Mr. Walt Disney(when he was first designing Disneyland): we can't afford mature specimens of plants and we want to add demension to the (previously stated) flat lot, so we're building birms (berms? burms? little hills....)around the edges of the property! That way our smaller plants look taller.

...

Drat! I'haven't got pictures ready, yet. Give me a moment - I'll be right back....

Our basement leaks and so there are large sections that are near worthless. I have my Corvair down there which I am selling and it opens up a lot of space, but all wet space. Then I realized this would be usable space ... for plants! I am going to put in grow lights and put all my tropicals down there in the winter! My Hibscus are huge and my Gardinia's are good. In summer, they will be in the yard, in winter, after you see my tiki bar, you can come downstairs and tour the tropical gardens! It should work out well.

Damn this tiki. I get crazier and crazier. BTW, I started out selling the Corvair so I could buy a tiki mug...

Swanky:

I just planted a couple of tropicals that are supposed to survive in our climate:

A banana tree that is hardy, oddly enough called hardy banana, that acts like a perennial. It is supposed to grow about eight feet tall from spring to June.

The other is pineapple lily. Again, it acts like a perennial in our area.

TNTiki

This is some bamboo in my parent's backyard. They planted the original clums 25 years ago, what you see is half of the grove.

These four clums were 4" at the beginning of June, by the end of the month they had grown to this height! This is the first time they've shot up so far from the main clump.

We're going to transplant these stalks to my backyard in either the fall or the spring.

Giganticus Elephantitus of the Earloabeist !!!

aka Haole version of Taro.

Hello!
New here. My main hobby is gardening and I am just starting to add some Tiki. Thought I'd share some pics. I am in zone 9b so I am able to grow a wide range of plants.

And the almost finsihed Tiki Hut for the kids

[ Edited by: batty 2005-08-12 12:39 ]

Worlds Largest Plumeria

Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!

Ernie rocks! Arrrrrr! Now I got to finger out Holdens. Arrrrrrrrrrrr!!

ps Arrrr{

[ Edited by: RevBambooBen 2005-08-14 19:31 ]

On 2005-02-17 19:18, Jungle Trader wrote:
As far as I know there is only one coconut palm in Calif. that has grown outside to full maturity. It's in Newport Beach at the Crab Cooker. I had no success even growing one inside, so I gave up. Next try, move to Hawaii.

Funny thing about coconut palms. I live in a relatively shady apartment complex, and bring in my plumerias for the winter (the warm weather keeps them from dropping leaves and going dormant). Anyway, I got two coconut palms about a year or year and a half ago, one I kept, the other went to my Mum. My Mum's died in about two months when the Santa Ana winds picked up. Just thrashed it. They've got a house, and it was out in the backyard, fairly exposed.
Mine's alive and well, and has spit out two new fronds this year! I'm hoping to have the only other mature coconut palm in So Cal. I just have to wait, what, 16 more years?
I keep it outside, it gets some direct sunlight, but only for about an hour or two each day. The rest of the time it gets a lot of indirect light filtered through from the trees around my balcony.
I water it about twice a week, maybe a little more frequently during the hot summer months, but I also mist the fronds a lot, and use miracle gro.
I'm curious to know what kind of conditions your tree was kept under. I know you said inside, but I'd like to know things like what temperature it is inside your place. How often did you water? Did you ever fertilize? There doesn't seem to be loads of information on how to grow coconut palms, and on top of it, I have to do all my gardening in containers, so it's a bit trickier; therefore I'm trying to collect as much information as I can, even from unsuccessful attempts. Hopefully I'll have a house by the time it outgrows the pot! :)

Here in Holland we like to grow 'tropical' plants too. :wink:
I'll see if i can post some nice pictures here...

On 2005-09-02 01:55, Tiki Rotterdam wrote:
Here in Holland we like to grow 'tropical' plants too. :wink:
I'll see if i can post some nice pictures here...

Cool!!!! Let's see 'em!

I've got a 5' banana(musa basjoo) I'm going to be planting this weekend.(anniversary gift - parents rock!)

Just for the heck of it I'm going to take before and after shots. Hope it doesn't rain! I've got a baby musa and a baby windmill palm to put in there too. Yahoooooo!!

I’d like to quickly chime in on the growing coconuts in So Cal question. There is a mature (but not fruiting) palm on 101, all the palm guys I’ve spoken with attribute it’s survival on the “perfect microclimate”. The way it was described to me was; it is up against a wall were it gets radiant heat and its roots are going under a sidewalk/road (a lot more heat).
The problem with growing coconut palms here is our long winters, it stays cold for almost half a year, which slowly kills the plant and they need continuous heat. Some plants are able shut down and start growing again next spring but not this one, I have seen many people try and the plant always dies. They are truly a tropical plant, if you really have to have a coconut looking plant there are several species of palm which are related to coconuts and can make it in our area.

My very best Alohas

Bosko

It would be cool to have a removable greenhouse made from corrugated clear plastic. You could assemble it in the winter and remove it for the summer. Kind of a lot of work, but the palm might do well and eventually bear fruit!

A local fellow has been growing cactus up here using a similar method. In the winter our persistent rains penetrate the plants. The water freezes and kills the new growing tips. By making a little awning out of the same plastic you can keep them dry and alive. I may try this.

P.S. our palms rarely get taller than 25 feet, so I'm probably thinking on a much smaller scale.

[ Edited by: Tikiwahine 2005-09-02 11:26 ]