That's just wrong! The un-Tiki thread:

[ Edited by: Tangaroa 2008-07-11 05:37 ]

On 2006-08-08 15:02, TIKI DAVID wrote:
... hey is that place in the keys?

The picture in question is from a house on one of Fort Lauderdale's many canals. Most of the canals connect in some fashion or another to the Intra-Coastal Waterway that then connects to the Ocean. A connection that Realtors charge a premium for...

I am not positive since Humuhumu posted the picture. That picture, or its twin, is on the Safari Thatch website and they do most of their photo staging at the owners house.

If you look closely, there is already a tiki torch next to the fence. It looks a little low to be useable.....

On 2006-08-08 14:46, MachTiki wrote:
Soccer... what is your hangup with getting Tang's take on what is and isn't tiki (And enough with the "thanks in advance for the lesson")? You're just calling everyone out, but that's it. There is "eye of the beholder", but then there's CRAP. Is it that hard for you to grasp or are you just stirring things up?

Mach...I'll answer you in a PM in an effort to not bore, incite, or derail this thread further!

On 2006-08-08 14:57, Chip and Andy wrote:
I am interested in hearing from others on this same question. For the bar that Humuhumu pointed out (first picture above, not the one from Sven), what is the minimum addition(s) that would make it cross over from back yard bar to Tiki bar?

Hopefully later today I'll have a moment to answer this, it's a great question. When I do, I'll post my response in another thread, which already has some great answers to that same question:

Must haves for tiki hut / tiki bar

".......what is the minimum addition(s) that would make it cross over from back yard bar to Tiki bar?"

My mother bought me a T-shirt with this print. She knows I'm into tiki but doesn't understand how horrible this is. I wore it a few times while mowing the lawn but it made me feel even more dirty.

Here's a tough one for all of you. It has Tiki in the title it is full of tikis and Hawaiian references. But in my opinion some how it still misses the mark. How can this be? What is it that make it fail as a Tiki song and video? Maybe the reference to beer, pretzels and Fresno? Is it just me? Or do I "GET TIKI" Here is the link you decide.

We love Tiki

No malice or offence is meant to Dua Tale who posted this song or to the musicians who performed it. Actually the song got stuck in my head a few times but it just doesn't work as a Tiki Tune. Why!?

[ Edited by: Tangaroa 2008-07-11 05:39 ]

Yup, still not tiki!

On 2006-08-08 15:55, Kenike wrote:

I know those guys. They partied with us at the Hotel Valley Ho. I think they live somewhere in Phoenix

[ Edited by: Tangaroa 2008-07-11 05:39 ]

Quote Tangaroa:

See - this is what I'm talking about - why would you put that up in your hotel room? It's un-tiki to the nth degree.

Because I'm a Kindergarten Teacher :) I try to make EVERYTHING Fun for everyone.
Besides The Soccer Tiki wouldn't fit in my suitcase :)

[ Edited by: WooHooWahine 2006-08-08 16:38 ]

Yikes! Those party tikis are just plain awful -- cringing isn't my idea of fun.

So we have established a pretty good idea of non tiki. Great.
What do we do about it now?

As in the case of the a few products pointed out, some vendors may suddenly find out that their wares are NOT TIKI. What then? Will folks with virtual pitch forks approach them and point out the lack of tikiness in the product? Is restraint possible to tell them in a nice fashion that they have missed the mark?

[ Edited by: Tangaroa 2008-07-11 05:40 ]

On 2006-08-08 09:26, The Granite Tiki wrote:

Key Rings

Sweet! I found some of these at Ron Jon at the Block. They weren't keychains though. They were full sized stuffed animal type things. About 12 inches tall. My dogs enjoy chewing the fluff out of them. While maybe not "tiki" they're still great chew toys, and way more easy to part with than a Coco Joes.

And I like this:

Now don't jump all over me! I understand that it's not polynesian pop, but I can still like it. While it may not exactly fit in at my home bar, I'd rather see that in a tiki bar than a big screen TV, or a Budweiser Neon sign. It'd be more fun if it was a neon Mai Tai maybe, but alas! The neon tiki torches outside the Puka Bar are the coolest, though. If you've never seen it, you gotta see it.

[ Edited by: Tangaroa 2008-07-11 05:40 ]

Of course, people like what they like and will buy what they want.
But TC has a specific vision of Mid Century in mind that I wish to ascribe to.

And now it's charter.
Overdue but still welcome.

Put all the junk in your tiki bar you can stuff in there.
Just don't get overly huffy if someone doesn't like it and points out its lack of TC-ish-ness.

I actually have a large wooden Bali mask pool side at The Lagoon Lounge.
Unpainted.

I like it, but I'm not going to defend it when someone points out that it's not Polynesian and lacks the PolyPop bent.
Nor will I declare it "Tiki" no matter who says it isn't.

It's just a cool piece (no doubt about that) that happens to be at home within the Lagoon Lounge, which is a stellar home Tiki Lounge.

My Kauai Coffee Bag hanging from the ceiling?
Now THAT I'll fight about. :wink:

[ Edited by: Tangaroa 2008-07-11 05:40 ]

That's truly f*cking terrifying.

GROG's turn.

I was excited when I first saw this thread, because I figured it would have alot of funny images of garish items that are being passed as "tiki". such as this:

And looking back, it started out that way in the first 2 pages of the thread. Sven also hoped it would educate the masses as to why these items aren't tiki as far as TC is concerned. Then it kind of splintered into "what's wrong with TC","let's bash Sven!"," who are we to judge?","why Pockeytiki is gone'","yes, tiki is a well-defined art form", and etc, with some nice on-topic pic posts of TIKI OFFENSES thrown in as well. So, I propose that we have another thread, an educational thread, like "Tiki 101" to define what is "tiki" as far as Tiki Central is concerned. We can start with examples of all the different tikis, Moais, Maori, Marquesians, Hawaiian, etc., and why they are acceptable as poly-pop . We should have a direct link to THIS thread to show what is NOT acceptable. We should have examples of real tiki bars, and links to ones already pictured on TC, as well a link to Critiki. We should have links to previous SAVAGE RENEWALS, and the next round of Savage Renewal would go in that thread or be linked to it. That would be the thread where people could ask questions of bigbro, BK, and others who are passionate and adept in the history and heart of what is tiki/polypop. It would be the YIN to the Yang of THIS thread. It would be all of what IS tiki/poly-pop and this would be what isn't. Of course that thread would have a much more serious tone to it since this thread would have examples such as this:

Another Bamboo Ben masterpiece! (sorry Ben, I couldn't help myself----love ya---Arrrr!!!!)

Seems to me tiki pretty much started out as decoration and became an art form/, but now has "Bufetted" into a bit of a fad as far as the general public is concerned. There are alot of people who have come here that had interests that may not have been directly tiki related, such as people into all things "retro", or into "exotica" or "Hawaiiana", or what have you, but are not poly-pop tiki "purists". With theTiki 101thread we can educate the masses as to what is considered true tiki/Poly-pop, and in this thread, what is not.

GROG get off soap box now. Basement Kahuna, GROG bet your soap box has alot of nice carvings on it. :)

[ Edited by: GROG 2006-08-08 21:19 ]

On 2006-08-08 16:00, Chongolio wrote:
Here's a tough one for all of you. It has Tiki in the title it is full of tikis and Hawaiian references. But in my opinion some how it still misses the mark. How can this be? What is it that make it fail as a Tiki song and video? Maybe the reference to beer, pretzels and Fresno? Is it just me? Or do I "GET TIKI" Here is the link you decide.

We love Tiki

No malice or offence is meant to Dua Tale who posted this song or to the musicians who performed it. Actually the song got stuck in my head a few times but it just doesn't work as a Tiki Tune. Why!?

If one didn't know better, you'd think this was from a kid's show such as "The Wiggles." But it's not. This is from a weekly public access show filmed a mere few blocks from my house, hosted by Merrell "Wipe Out" Fankhauser called "The Tiki Lounge."

Here's his most un-tiki web site http://www.merrellfankhauser.com/

From his website, on "We Love Tikis"

Merrell’s new surf song, “We Love Tikis” is named an instant “Surf and Tiki Culture Hit” by DJs and fans around the world.

To think the man went from writing "Wipe Out," one of the all time classic surf songs, to this....

The other problem is the people. You can have a great tiki environnement, or a great new tiki bar, but if the customer don't understand it, it gets bad.
When I was in Mexico city, I really wanted to go to that new tiki bar, especially as it was partly made by my friend Jorge Alderete. The place could have been great, but as the people there didn't know and care about what is tiki, all they wanted was house music (I started dj exotica, it didn't work), and so it is now becoming a usual trendy bar.
Same goes with tiki bob cantina, they use the word tiki, but they don't know what really is a tiki bar, and don't care, they make what the customers wants.

NOT TIKI:

"Tiki Tiki: Shinjuku. Yes, it's a real live tiki lounge in Tokyo! Party down with giant tropical drinks, entertaining pan-Asian food and amusingly over-the-top decor...."

Nice try, (not bad on the TiPSY scale) but the tiki decor all looks like it's made of plastic, and the TV monitors mounted inside the tikis mouths create a very non-tiki effect.

"Ah, good taste! What a dreadful thing! Taste is the enemy of creativeness."
-Pablo Picasso

[ Edited by: Aaron's Akua 2006-08-09 09:47 ]

Are these tiki? Please comment.

Why is all this non-tiki criticism aimed at present day creations? Why are the legends (Don the Beachcomber, Trader Vic, Steve Crane, etc.) never criticized for being non-tiki?

Why are the examples below considered tiki? Because they are old? Because they appear in the Book of Tiki? Because of the name on them?

On 2006-08-09 10:38, TikiPhil wrote:
Why are the legends (Don the Beachcomber, Trader Vic, Steve Crane, etc.) never criticized for being non-tiki?

This question has been raised and answered by bigbrotiki on the forums in the past, but the short answer is: If it is related to the PolyPop history of tiki, then it's considered tiki. All your images fit that description.

Man. this thread is draining me like a battery.
I'm kinda startin to burn out on Tiki.
(Na, that won't happin)

On 2006-08-09 10:38, TikiPhil wrote:
Why is all this non-tiki criticism aimed at present day creations? Why are the legends (Don the Beachcomber, Trader Vic, Steve Crane, etc.) never criticized for being non-tiki?

Why are the examples below considered tiki? Because they are old? Because they appear in the Book of Tiki? Because of the name on them?

Because those guys created and defined tiki. If you wanna get right down to it, Donn Beach invented Tiki. Trader Vic copied him and built upon it, as did others.

Well you drew me out again...because I have something to say about each of these previous THREE POSTS:

1.) Aaron's Akua: It is not that the Japanese Tiki Tiki Restaurants are UnTiki, it is the GARISH PAINTJOB that was wrongly applied to their Tikis later. The Tiki Tikis were outfitted by Oceanic Arts, which basically is a seal of quality...BUT relatively late in the game, around 1980 I think. This is when the whole misguided policy of painting usually dark brown primitive art in folkish "Fiesta Style" colors started.

Clownish paint has been pointed out here before as a definite sign of TIKI DEVOLUTION. Even Oceanic Arts has been affected by it, and still does it if customers ask for it (see "Night of the Tiki").
And the "party" advertising of these places seems to stem from economic necessity. Not an excuse, just a fact.

2.) Zulu Magoo, nice try: Using badly done VINTAGE Tikis to raise the question "Why would they be different from badly done Tikis of today?" They are not, really, maybe that's why I didn't use any of these in my book, which, because of my pre-selection, reflects a "perfect" Tiki world that did not exist even back then.
(Exclude number 3, the Mortlock mask, which to me always was a fine example of primitive/modern art)

3.) Tiki Phil: Please review the "Evolution of Polynesian Pop" chart in the Book of Tiki. It clearly divides the founding period of Don The Beachcomber and Trader Vic's into NON-Tiki until the mid-century, out of which emerged the TIKI PERIOD, with Steven Crane building on both, and being among the first to widely use the Tiki image in his logo and decor.
Then, in the Tiki period, the Poly Pop founders (Don a little, and Vic a lot) began to use Tikis more (see Trader Vic menu evolution in the BOT).

Your question seem to come from a purely mug-centric approach, and I am happy to point to numerous discussions here on TC where I voiced my opinion that any mug that does not actually depict a Tiki should not be called a Tiki mug- but they are, so hey.
But just because Don and Vic used non-Tiki mugs does not mean they are not an important part of TIKI, and their mugs are not part of Tiki style.

It's difficult, I know.

[ Edited by: bigbrotiki 2006-08-09 12:36 ]

A picture with UN-TIKI pasted underneath says it all.
(PLUS some explanatory writings which are neccessary sometimes)

Folks?

This is actually very very important. As a "noob" myself, Seeing an image posted with "Oh the humanity!" does not help me understand why it doesn't fit the genre.

So I'd encourage that expanations are not sometimes necessary, but always necessary.

Thanks!

[ Edited by: filslash 2008-09-16 14:15 ]

On 2006-08-08 13:37, bigbrotiki wrote:
And Tiki is part of Polynesian Pop, but not all Polynesian Pop is Tiki. Simple.
I should know, I coined the term Polyn...arggh, wait...nooo....hmpfgh...

Well, its NOT simple. sorry.

And unfortunately, just because you coined the term doesn't mean you get to own the definition forever :wink:

Please read the appropriate levity into that. :)

On 2006-08-08 12:48, tikigreg wrote:
This not Tiki either, grasshopper!

Ok, I'll buy this not being tiki...but can it be Poly-Pop depending on how/where its used?
For example as a container for a Happy Buddha?

On 2006-08-08 17:34, Tangaroa wrote:

No! They are not "sweet"!!!! The are ugly as hell, neon atrocities! And they don't represent Polynesia (Pop or otherwise) in any way.

Whoa whoa whoa! Hold on just one second before you jump down my throat! I didn't post to start an argument or get in a fight. I thought we were all just posting to have a conversation about un-tiki garishness, etc. I think you misunderstood my initial comment. I found things, very similar to the keyrings, which I said. I also said that my dogs use them as chew toys. You read that part, right? I found it ironic that someone else on TC ran across these same things. I never thought anyone would find these in a million years. I was hoping someone would get some enjoyment out of knowing my dogs have completely destroyed them.

On 2006-08-08 17:34, Tangaroa wrote:

If I have the choice between that neon sign and a Budweiser neon sign - I'd really rather see nothing at all.

I just knew you were going to say that.....
Let me be very clear about something, Tangaroa-- I absolutely agree with you that neither the neon sign nor a Budweiser sign is very "tiki" as defined by whether it's Polynesian Pop. It's definitely not representative of '60s style. I still think a neon sign can be more "tiki" than a Budweiser sign.
Here's my example:
The neon sign in the purple orchid. It's not terribly far removed from the one Tangaroa posted. However, I think that in the environment at the PO, it fits just fine.
The photo is from Rupe33's post on the PO. I hope Rupe33 doesn't mind me stealing. Humuhumu posted a pic on critiki of the sign in its actual place, but the detail wasn't as clear.

For the sake of comparison, here's the un-tiki neon sign:

No one in the past has made a comment about how hideous the PO sign is, or how it isn't "tiki". In fact, any comments about it usually state how cool everyone thinks it is. Now since it's not "tiki" by a poly-pop definition, why is this okay? Why isn't everyone up in arms over it? Because it's part of the modern expression of "tiki", right? The "celebrating classic and modern polynesian pop" says that we celebrate the modern expression of tiki. So if the PO neon is a modern expression, what about the un-tiki neon sign. Why is that one so wrong? Where, in fact, did it go wrong?
Is it the extra detail in the PO neon? I'd say the extra detail makes the PO neon sign cooler, but not necessarily more "tiki". So why is it more "tiki"? What makes it so much better?
Or maybe I've got it wrong-- the PO neon isn't tiki! Should it be taken down? Is all neon automatically "un-tiki"?
I'm NOT trying to start an argument. I'm not even trying to say that we shouldn't have the byline for tiki central. I think it's a fine idea.
I do know that this sort of neon light tiki vs non-tiki "contradiction" is the exception rather than the rule, so don't think I'm being intentionally inflammatory, either. I am trying to have some civilized dialogue about an issue that seems to be provoking quite a bit of heated response.

I love this thread, it's like the Council of Nicaea. :)

So is this tiki, or just what the second generation of tiki aficionados decided was fun- monkeys and fezzes?

Note image was taken from Crazy Al's post in the Marketplace selling this mug on E-bay.

On 2006-08-09 12:06, TofuJoe wrote:

On 2006-08-08 12:48, tikigreg wrote:
This not Tiki either, grasshopper!

Ok, I'll buy this not being tiki...but can it be Poly-Pop depending on how/where its used?
For example as a container for a Happy Buddha?

Short Answer: No.

Long Answer: Yes, if you don't care about mixing your genres, since this isn't even Poly-Pop.

On 2006-08-09 12:14, TikiJosh wrote:

... Now since it's not "tiki" by a poly-pop definition, why is this okay? Why isn't everyone up in arms over it? Because it's part of the modern expression of "tiki", right? The "celebrating classic and modern polynesian pop" says that we celebrate the modern expression of tiki. So if the PO neon is a modern expression, what about the un-tiki neon sign. Why is that one so wrong? Where, in fact, did it go wrong?

...I'm NOT trying to start an argument. I'm not even trying to say that we shouldn't have the byline for tiki central. I think it's a fine idea.

I agree. With the question, that is.... The outer edges of the debate are easy to argue, Tiki Barber is not Tiki except to his mother. For the sake of those just getting here, and for the sake of conversation, where is the middle of this argument. Where does Tropical become Tiki? Where does craft end and Poly-Pop begin? Where does a thing, or collection of things, reach that point where it becomes Tiki?

I don't expect this thread, or any post in this thread, to define the answer of "What is..." but instead to keep the conversation going. The very definition of Tiki and Poly-Pop is what created the questions that lead to the discussions that lead to a greater understanding and or appreciation of Tiki as a movement and lifestyle and not just simply as a couple of words.

Wow..since I usually just prowl around in the tiki music forum, today is the first time I'm seeing this thread. I've read all 13 pages of it.
Despite what anyone says, defining "tiki" or "Polynesian pop" will, I imagine, be ongoing as definition always change over time, as well as concepts. I do know when something strikes me as "wrong" although I may not be able to define why exactly.
I don't care if something is old or new, but somehow COLORS bother me. That's why I dislike all those party items we see everywhere. I'm sorry, PURPLE just doesn't seem a very "tiki-like" color. I think of warm earth tones, orange, maybe a bit of yellow. Only a few flowers should be purple.
I don't consider tiki as a style to HAVE to be Polynesian in origin as for me it has always seemed a blending or confusion of Asian, Pacific, African, West Indies culture, art, & music...intentionaly vague sometimes. I mean, as someone pointed out earlier, how the heck are monkeys in fezzes Polynesian? I have no problems with a few pirates or parrots thrown in. After all, I live in Waikiki and everyday of the week I can walk outside and see people having their pictures taken by the beach with live parrots on their arms & shoulders. And I'm all for incorporating Indonesian & Philippine carvings and artwork. Lots of what is sold in Waikiki at the souvenir stalls is carved in Asia, and I think would look fine in a tiki environment.
However, any mention of beer, rock bands, and motorcycles seem to kill the tiki vibe for me.
I've never actually thought of spray-painting or reworking some of those cheap party tiki masks, etc., but that's not a bad idea for those on a budget. And I have seen some cheap tiki candles, etc that seem to be in a more appropriate color scheme that would do quite well.
It's been a very intersting series of posts to read, and I think TC is right to take an "educational" stance on defining things. Just know that in the 1950s & 60s when this stuff was going on , no one had a style book in front of them. They used their own sense of judgement.

this forum topic is SUCKING THE FUN out of life...anything that increases AWARENESS that tiki evens EXISTS outside of trekkie-style adulation should maybe be embraced...the TRUE BELIEVERS will always know good from bad but PUHLEEEZ it is becoming pedantic & PISSY....Tiki Say RELAX.

[ Edited by: Tangaroa 2008-07-11 05:41 ]

On 2006-08-09 11:46, bigbrotiki wrote:

2.) Zulu Magoo, nice try: Using badly done VINTAGE Tikis to raise the question "Why would they be different from badly done Tikis of today?" They are not, really, maybe that's why I didn't use any of these in my book, which, because of my pre-selection, reflects a "perfect" Tiki world that did not exist even back then.
(Exclude number 3, the Mortlock mask, which to me always was a fine example of primitive/modern art)

I knew I wouldn't be able to slip these buy bigbro. I intentionally took these images out of their original context for comparison with the intent to show the full image in a later post. Here are the full images for comparison.

The Orange County Fair in Costa Mesa, CA.

The Polynesian in Ocean Shores, WA

Tiki Gardens, Indian Rocks Beach, FL

Twin Tiki Inn, Eddyville, KY

wow, "we loves tikis" is so horrible i'm fascinated by it!

Man, this thread is cracking me up.

I think most of us here know tiki from shinola. And I gotta agree with some of the other posters....overanalyzing something is one way to suck all the fun out of it.

I know Neon isn't tiki. And yet I have (had) a neon clock in my bar....

I like it. I like neon....gives a 50's retro feel to something if its done properly. But neon is a no-no in a tiki bar.

Did this make the bar less tiki? Did it make me less into Tiki and poly pop?

How does that clock rate? Or the Resin tiki sculpture I found (with the boots inside it) to put in my yard?

This thread reminds me alot of the chatter on the local sports stations: Alot of die hard Red Sox fans are pissed that all these young college/high school girls are coming to the games, wearing pink hats.

Yup, you heard right. Pink Hats are pissing everyone off.

Why? Because they're not RED SOX enough...the sox dont wear pink!! Add to this, that the "Pink Hats" tend to talk through the games, not pay attention, not know what is going on, talk on the cellphones the whole time, and be a general annoyance to anyone who IS a fan and is unlucky enough to be seated anywhere near them.

Are they any less fans of the red sox? maybe.

Should someone take the time to actually teach them whats going on in the game...the infield fly rule, ground rules double, etc.

Do you see where I'm going here? So what if someone has a garishly painted tiki (disney did it)?. Any fascination with the art/scene/style/drinks is good. Encourage their growth, and maybe soon THEY'LL be writing books about tiki and its influence in the 24th (and a half) century.

Embrace the pink hats!! At least it means there are a bunch of Hot Wahines at the games now!

We're at a point where almost any tiki is good tiki. Sure there are exceptions, but I find it nice to see tiki in places other than my basement, no matter how horrible I might think they are. At least it means there's some interest out there.

Just my 2cents.

[ Edited by: Bargoyle 2006-08-09 14:40 ]

On 2006-08-09 14:13, ZuluMagoo wrote:

I knew I wouldn't be able to slip these buy bigbro. I intentionally took these images out of their original context for comparison with the intent to show the full image in a later post. Here are the full images for comparison.

The Orange County Fair in Costa Mesa, CA.

It's interesting that this one is the only example that isn't a restaurant logo or mascot, as it stood out against the others in your original post to me as an example of a design by someone who doesn't "get" tiki and probably hadn't done their homework. It's wrong on so many levels (baboon/moai hybrid, huge African style hoop earrings) that, to me at least, it's "un-tiki". As is this:

[ Edited by: Paipo 2006-08-09 15:08 ]

On 2006-08-08 12:32, WooHooWahine wrote:
TIKI is in the EYE of the Beholder!!!!

Using this logic:

Toothpaste is in the eye of the beholder. You can brush your choppers with roofing cement if you like. It is up to you, and all perfectly fine.

Golf carts are in the eye of the beholder. You can drive a dump truck or a speedboat on the course if it suits you. Do whatever you like... run with it.

BK is right, it is not open to so much interpretation as you may be inclined to profess.

And yes, Sven's book is a good way to tell if it is or is not tiki. I would not disagree with that.

Ahu

:music: :music: And that's what I like about the South!! :music: :music: