What is up at Tiki-Ti?

We just have too tolerate the hipsters. Nothing beats the TIKI-TI.

ANYONE who supports a vintage Tiki bar is A-OK in my book. Also if it wasn't for the Hipsters' disposable income, we wouldn't have the craft cocktail movement.

Well the Red Head Saloon in Chicago used to be cool and fun.
THEN the high dollar hipster types found it and now you can't get a table there
because they are reserved for some big shot, it's not fun because of the
new vibe the high dollar types bring in.
The people who went there for years and made it cool are now second class citizens,
while the new high dollar type hipsters are who the bar caters to.

What comes next is even the high dollar type hipsters don't like the vibe they
brought in, cuz hipsters and the bar have run away the people who made it a cool fun place.
Then it all comes down because nobody goes there.

You ever wonder why the coolest hippest new bars have such a short life span, high dollar type hipsters
can't even stand to be around that crowd.
There's always a bigger more important person than the VIPs of the club and people get tired of
being second class citizens and don't come in.
Then the VIPs don't have any little people to look down on from the VIP spot and they move on.

But then I like a low key talking at the bar type joint and those may
not make as much money as bar owners today want.

Tiki ti is cool' great vibe, I don't think they would let it happen to Tiki Ti.

PS I know the Redhead Saloon is a cheesy Tourist Trap.
It used to be better, But then I often like cheesy Tourist Traps.

On 2015-05-09 16:45, JOHN-O wrote:
ANYONE who supports a vintage Tiki bar is A-OK in my book. Also if it wasn't for the Hipsters' disposable income, we wouldn't have the craft cocktail movement.

Except the latest Hipster cocktail fad is bringing back all the 1970s cocktails (Fuzzy Navel, Sex on the Beach, Mud Slides, Long Island Ice Tea etc.)
and that pretty much killed classic & old style Tiki cocktails, Hipsters are Cocktail locusts, I say!

They pretty much take over & consume everything & with their extremely short attention spans
move on to the next untouched crop to devour & decimate.

God I hate em! :D

I feel like DTB has more weekend hipsters than anywhere, but I'd put up with a thousand hipsters to have one drink at Tiki Ti. I agree that anyone who supports tiki bars has an automatic +1 to start with.

Remember when hipsters only drank PBR tall boys? Doesn't seem that long ago.

On 2015-05-09 18:29, lunavideogames wrote:
I feel like DTB has more weekend hipsters than anywhere, but I'd put up with a thousand hipsters to have one drink at Tiki Ti. I agree that anyone who supports tiki bars has an automatic +1 to start with.

Remember when hipsters only drank PBR tall boys? Doesn't seem that long ago.

I know, seems to be a few more in the Dagger Bar every month
now, but still drinking the PBRs in the bag that Dons serves
but the staff really prefers when the Tiki crowd shows up, still.

I am sure it is because we dress up & drink the higher priced cocktails & tip better!
but like John says, the more people there, better to keep the lights on.

"but like John says, the more people there, better to keep the lights on."

Not true all of the time, McDonald's near my Restaurant had a line of people waiting to get
everyday and buy coffee, But they were homeless and would hang out in McDonald's all day
on that one cup and take baths in the restrooms of McDonald's, this drove the other customers away.
That McDonald's closed.

If hipsters hang out run off the regulars then get bored of said place and leave, well the old
regulars have found a new spot and you are not their spot any more.
This happened here at Ciao's.
Ciao's is now closed.

So it's a delicate balance and the smart old time restaurant owners tailor the crowd to
keep the place going in a path that will keep them busy for the long haul.

[ Edited by: tikiskip 2015-05-10 05:55 ]

Not sure how the hipsters dress in your bars. But if they are doing the whole flannel shirt thing, then I think they're sadly not comprehending the tiki vibe and cluelessly portraying the scruffy lumberjack vibe.

The good news is, like others have pointed out here, that they have been on a quest for better cocktails. If only the bartenders could help resist the douchbaggery that are the old cheesy 70's and 80's cocktails and help them stick with more classic stuff. I can't help but wonder if the hipster thing has peaked and is starting to devolve now. With their short attention spans, isn't it time for them to begin moving on to their next fad? Let's hope there will be some cocktail-centricity in whatever they do next unless, of course, they continue to do the crappy "lets add 20 different bitters to our new drinks" clowning around. Yes, sadly, hipsters may have been the ones to have "discovered" bitters and taken them to extremes - it's only a matter of time before we see "cotton candy bitters" or something equally funny arrive on their scene.

What the...? How did this get turned into a thread about hipsters?!

tikiskip wrote:

But please note,
This is how the old time places you know and love go down.
It's a quick "hey we will be back in a few" never to be seen again.

Every now and then you get the blow out Kahiki last day, or the Bahooka party month, but not often.

So if you love an old place, go to that place often because "here today gone tomorrow" think Madonna Inn,
Or Battista's Hole In The Wall type places.

This post is SPOT ON!!!

You're right, Thor. I couldn't believe how many "local" tikiphiles lamented the loss of Bahooka. because "they never had a chance to go!" I live 3000 miles away & I've been to all of them multiple times. Get off your arses, people & support the places we love!

On 2015-05-10 10:26, Big Kahuna wrote:
You're right, Thor. I couldn't believe how many "local" tikiphiles lamented the loss of Bahooka. because "they never had a chance to go!" I live 3000 miles away & I've been to all of them multiple times. Get off your arses, people & support the places we love!

I concur!

I love old places like Tiki ti!
The owners are in the place working, so they know what's going on and care deeply
about the place and the customers.
Plus they know most of the customers so the place becomes one big family, and most of the
customers know each other so they too are friends now.

It's not as easy to go into a place where you know the owners and most of the regulars and be
a raging prick because you care what these people think of you and you like them too.

This is the hipster link, (I say hipster but mean here today gone tomorrow customer) they DON"T
care what you think, and don't want to get to know the regulars that they feel better than.
So the good one big happy family vibe is gone.

THIS is why I go to old places where the owner is in house and has been for years.
These are much more fun to go to and when they are gone that's it, not many places like
that left.

Here's my story - I roll with a group of folks who, well, aren't your standard tiki fans. But I would make a weekly meet up over at Tunga Hut back when they had buck PBR a half decade or so back. It eventually got bumped up to $2 per can. While I wasn't expecting these, for the most part, poor or financially strapped folks to get a tiki drink, I would encourage hanging out at the spot and they became weekly regulars.

Now that they have the cash flow in better jobs after all these years, they're more than happy to wax nostalgia over tiki bars and get into scene.

So stop with the stupid hipster hate, folks. Hipster isn't even a proper way to describe these, or any folks. It's usually the catch all to describe someone who simply is not like yourself. And in a subculture like Tiki, we really shouldn't be hating on others.

As for Tiki Ti and the news, man a lot of news sites just jumped on whatever the FB feed was and rolled with it without doing proper journalism, which was the biggest tragedy of it all.

And yeah, we may be a little shell shocked by how Bahooka's closed, but this clearly wasn't that sort of situation.

I'm a fan of Tiki Ti, I've introduced many many many folks to drunken stumbling nights there. Had tiki crawls, had benders to celebrate. Yeah, had it all. But typically I always just did it early in the evening to avoid the crowds - which most of you would just lump into "hipsters".

I'm glad they're not going away, but you have to admit, or at least I will as a 35 year old, old fart, that even going to places like Tiki Oasis or Tiki Caliente - the average tiki enthusiast makes me feel young.

So how about we curb the hate for new blood, cause Uh-oha knows that we're going to need a next generation of tiki lovers to keep the craft going in a few years.

"(I say hipster but mean here today gone tomorrow customer)"

But then at the Redhead some of the hipsters I was talking about were US senators,
so guess I shoulda said jerks.

For me it would translate to loud obnoxious drunks.
But then I may have fell into that category many years ago.
My brand of tiki is low key lounge, classy cool.

At 35 you are one of the young tiki peeps around here I would guess.

when you get to 50 you kind of rowdy down I guess.

Saw a Starbucks coconut coffee mug the other day, the end is nigh.

[ Edited by: tikiskip 2015-05-11 04:05 ]

On 2015-05-11 03:53, tikiskip wrote:
Saw a Starbucks coconut coffee mug the other day, the end is nigh.

Skip - I see that two ways - good news that tiki is getting further into the mainstream consciousness, and bad from the standpoint that tiki is being kitsched-out in the mainstream consciousness. But then I immediately think of how the whole mid-century tiki think was kitsched out in and of itself, so we may be in the sweet spot of where we want to be.

I took some photos this past Friday of plastic tiki "mugs" and coconuts being sold at Wal-Mart. I will post them later when I get some more time.

On 2015-05-11 03:34, tikijackskeleton wrote:
Now that they have the cash flow in better jobs after all these years, they're more than happy to wax nostalgia over tiki bars and get into scene.

So stop with the stupid hipster hate, folks. Hipster isn't even a proper way to describe these, or any folks. It's usually the catch all to describe someone who simply is not like yourself. And in a subculture like Tiki, we really shouldn't be hating on others.

So how about we curb the hate for new blood, cause Uh-oha knows that we're going to need a next generation of tiki lovers to keep the craft going in a few years.

tikijackskellington - I think you made many good points. For the record, I don't hate hipsters. But they're fun to poke fun at because they are so in-your-face trying to look and act a certain way and they're easy to spot. It's like the emo and old punk groups - they really stood out. And many tiki folks either are, or have become, fairly keen observers. And hipsters (or whatever we call them) seem to be getting caught up in that. I have never met an a-hole hipster, they're all trying to do the same thing I am at a tiki venue -- have some good drinks and have some good times with friends. They don't seem to look down on me, and I don't look down on them, although I do see common traits with beards, suspenders, certain hats, etc. But some of them hang with phenomenally good-looking women, and that brings up the quality of my surroundings, and they're generally friendly. I do admit to having a sense of humor, and hopefully I don't offend anybody. But I never ever feel "hate" towards anyone, and I hope you can see where I'm coming from. Just trying to have some good-natured fun.

On another note, hipsters and others are important fuel for the economic machine that helps keep tiki places open and profitable. I'd be pretty stoopid if I didn't acknowledge that. So hang in there with us, tolerate the finger-poking and rib-tickling you'll occasionally see here, and let's continue to have a good time and welcome one and all into our tiki places. Reality is such that there will always be a few who don't fit in, or who behave badly at times, or who don't handle their alcohol well. That's part of the bar scene, and I overlook it no matter how bad it may seem at times. Those things are rare.

Cheerio!

On 2015-05-11 06:07, AceExplorer wrote:

On another note, hipsters and others are important fuel for the economic machine that helps keep tiki places open and profitable. I'd be pretty stoopid if I didn't acknowledge that. So hang in there with us, tolerate the finger-poking and rib-tickling you'll occasionally see here, and let's continue to have a good time and welcome one and all into our tiki places. Reality is such that there will always be a few who don't fit in, or who behave badly at times, or who don't handle their alcohol well. That's part of the bar scene, and I overlook it no matter how bad it may seem at times. Those things are rare.

Yes, it's important to remember that the so-called "hipsters" as we're using the term in this thread, are the people who keep these places open. Imagine trying to keep a tiki bar afloat just on the patronage of tikiphiles alone. It's likely impossible. There just aren't enough of us, and most of us can't afford to go to a bar every night they're open (although some have tried). In San Francisco, Smuggler's Cove is filled with non-tikiphiles just about every Friday and Saturday night, which means the rest of us just know to go earlier in the week. The good news is that some of those people actually end up getting turned on to tiki in the process. The well-run bars will do a good job of getting the truly unruly patrons out of the bar pretty quickly, and those that stick around eventually figure out the vibe of the place and become part of what keeps the doors open.

JenTiki, you reminded me of the Mai-Kai and other "legacy" surviving tiki places around the US where so many "non-tiki" people came to enjoy the environment, the food, the drinks, the entertainment. Without the support of "non-tiki" folks many more of those places would have closed decades earlier. It's amazing because there wasn't an organized body of tikiphiles to tap into back in the dark years.

I'm glad to see the meaning in my earlier message "got through." Thanks for the feedback.

Well the places I was talking about were not even tiki sooo other than Tiki Ti, (Redhead and Ciaos).

I know you need more than just tiki nutz to keep a tiki joint like Tiki Ti and Mai Kai going.

Think more along these lines...
http://www.latimes.com/opinion/readersreact/la-le-1113-thursday-housing-20141113-story.html

It's a trap!

I'm equally confused how this turned into a hipster hate thread. A few years ago, when I was new to the tiki scene, and wanting to learn more, I found Tiki Central. If I had seen a thread like this at the time I would never have returned. Just remember when you post things like this that you could be potentially scaring away new Tiki peeps.

Don't take any of it too seriously and then turn it all around and turn it into "hate" which it's not - they're just a very easy subject of jokes of the day.

In a few years you'll look back at these photos and, possibly, laugh at how they all dressed, groomed, drank, and acted the same. Rarely do we get to see a group of people who are so "cool" act so collectively and completely uncool.

I think that last photo, with the "hipster trap," says it all.

Hipsters, fuck em!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-a_4SM_eoE

I too think tiki needs new blood.
But if you go to the Mai Kai reviews online you will see some
people who say this place is a dirty Tourist Trap, these people do not
appreciate the old joints like we do.

I took some friends to Windward here in town and they laughed at it
and still make fun of it today, it's a theme restaurant from the 70s.
I want to get new blood for the Windward to help it stay alive, but this was
not a good fit.

John O met us at Windward and I think he liked it, he even paid, thanks John O!
TC peeps are a rare breed that like the old and dusty / rusty joints.

But not to put it on only hipsters but, just that group of people that
want to Starbuckify everything, new fake plastic wood all over.
Starbucks by the way puts their shops near old coffee shops and diners
like mine to get the business from these places and this many times
drives them out.

This thread took this turn after the TMZ comment and I said something about hipsters
and it went on from there.

I think it was me who took it down this path, Sorry.

Funny stuff there IdoVoodoo!

And Skip. I hope I helped the derail too. :wink:

It's been a while!!!

Bamboo Ben
Custom Tropical Decor
I build Tiki Rooms for you! Just ask around :wink:
https://www.facebook.com/bamboo.ben

[ Edited by: Grog 2015-05-11 17:16 ]

[ Edited by: RevBambooBen 2015-05-11 17:16 ]

I too will own my remarks
and I stand by them, you back peddling flibbertigibbets!

Not a bad derail I think.

Miss the old "two thumbs up, right up your a$$" Tiki Central of old. (best TC quote ever!)
But this whole "TC is mean" is propaganda put out by others that want to divide and conquer.

Have we reached an era where people can't have a different view and still get along?

If you like Jimmy Buffet come on here and say FU I like Buffet!
Would respect that.

NOW that thread would get some HITS.

I concur, light maker!
I missed the old days also, at least people weren't so thinned skinned back then
and this thread was ripe for a derail, I would welcome the counter point argument
from some Hipsters, here I will start: "Just what do you Hipsters stand for?"

I have asked this question a few times & never received a response.

Ok, then here's my opinion. I do think there are some mean aspects to some threads on TC. And collectively, you seem to use the word 'hipster' as a dumping ground for all the things that you dislike about youth of today. Am I a hipster? At age 47, I doubt it. But I can certainly have some sympathy, and even appreciation, for a different point of view.

Come at me bro.

I work in graphic design: I know a hipster when I see one because I work with them. Silverlake and Los Feliz is chock full of them, and much of them hit up Tiki Ti as that "cool Hawaiian bar."

I did say hipster but really I do try to go by the person that I meet.
Myself I don't often use the word hipster.
But some bars, restaurants and groups do have a running theme, and
if that theme is one that's not my style I do try to steer clear, think frat like.

This is the very reason I like old joints as they most of the time
are filled with like minded people.

I for one do not wish to come at you.

I'm super out of practice. Facebook has shrunken my head!! Yes. TC ten years ago went off!

Didn't I just see you, Ben?
and no Hipsters were at Don's tonight, soooo....

For the record, When I refer to Hipsters, I am referring to a uniform look/style
which is a disparate mismatch of era's & conflicting styles, none propagated
in the form of any originality, whatsoever.

They have no belief system, reason, motivation or statement in what they do
they just do, usually in the form of rampant texting, because they don't seem to be able to have a normal conversation
and resort to Wikipedia for any tidbit of knowledge instead of learning a thing or two for themselves.

They are super consumers, roughly 25 to 40 whom conform to to each other
in a singular way, they are the endless lines at the Apple Store when a new iPhone is released
and will pay $500.00 or more for denim designer jeans, when Levis 501's can be had for around $45.00
The bands that they like have ridiculous names and truly suck, ironically.

But don't get me started. :D

what are those- jean shorts? capris? I assume that's a soccer scarf.

here i was all this time thinking that tikiphiles were a subcategory of hipster....

On 2015-05-12 00:36, Atomic Tiki Punk wrote:
The bands that they like have ridiculous names and truly suck, ironically.

bands with ridiculous names that ironically suck-- isnt that what punk rock was all about?

PBR is Hipster?
Lots o PBR drinkers here, Not me, I hate real beer, so I drink Bud.

Wonder if there is a Hipster Central and they all tiki about what douches Tiki people are.
"so like they all wear flower shirts and drink rum"

On 2015-05-12 07:20, tikiskip wrote:
PBR is Hipster?
Lots o PBR drinkers here, Not me, I hate real beer, so I drink Bud.

Wonder if there is a Hipster Central and they all tiki about what douches Tiki people are.
"so like they all wear flower shirts and drink rum"

That's funny. I did a search for Hipster Central also the other day but got bored after one page.

Is the Tiki Ti open yet? I was just talking to Mike senior at the last International Tiki Marketplace about beer
at the Tiki Ti! Only Heineken. Blahhhhh!!! Someone ( Ballast Point? ) needs to make a worthy IPA with a high abv for
the Tiki Ti called Tiki Ti IPA. p.s. #TikiTi ( is hashtagging hipster?)

Skip, yes there is, try going here:

http://www.hipstercentral.com/

Hipsters are alternatively drinking PBR or the craftiest of craft beers aren't they?

Hipsters are drinking craft cocktails too right?

Ain't nothing wrong with that.

The beards are okay if their bushy enough without being crazy. I like the clean cut style with the cut part lines. I hate the knit cap.

If I owned a bar, I'd want them in there.

But like skip, I like the old places. One of my favs in town has a median age of probably 65. I get to be the youngest person in the bar regularly.

I have about 6 friends that are bartenders in Craft or Tiki bars. They aren't big fans of Hipsters. Their complaints are that they are cheap, don't tip well if at all, and hang way too long. Could be a regional thing though.

"One of my favs in town has a median age of probably 65. I get to be the youngest person in the bar regularly."

That sounds like the place we go to all the time Swanky.

"they are cheap, don't tip well if at all, and hang way too long. Could be a regional thing though."

That also went on at Tropical Bistro here in Columbus, Don't know if they would fall
into the hipster category.
But they do displace other customers that would be spending money, look for another place to go out due to this as well.

And this goes back to what I was saying about them changing the vibe of your restaurant/bar.

Both coming from Chicago (Land of 1000 Hipsters) and
working in the (indie) music industry the last 10 years,
I feel like I should chime in...

I think the blanket term "Hipster" is to the current 20-something-to-30-something generation what terms
like "Alternative""Indie," "Gen-X" and "Slacker" were
to the current 40-something-to-50-something generation.

They are, generally speaking, people who listen to non-mainstream music and fall into that non-fashion-
trend-that-becomes-fashion-trend-that-becomes-marketing-
gimmick pit, whether on purpose or not.

There are many varieties of actual hipsters... from the "Old Timey Mustache Guy" to the "Lumberjack" to the "Fixed Gear Bike Messenger"... (we used to have a chart...), but in order to really be a hipster, my feeling is that you really have to be trying to prove something, typically how "weird" and "unique" you are through your fashion, lifestyle and music choices. You are trying to convince people that you are unlike anyone else (and, ironically, ultimately end up being like most others you associate with.)

Y'know all that awful modern advertising like the Skittles and Old Spice commercials where a bunch of non-sensical bullshit happens and you're supposed to find it hilarious... kind of a short encapsulation of "internet culture?" That's targeting hipsters (or "Millenials" which is becoming an interchangeable term.)

With true "hipsters," to me, there's a sense of trying way too hard and a level of affectation and pretension... here, I'm thinking the dudes with complicated haircuts and waxed mustaches and tattoos that make reference to some painstakingly obscure, rightfully forgotten pop-culture cul-de-sac from the 80's or 90's, and who will argue with you all night, tooth-and-nail, as to why said painstakingly obscure, rightfully forgotten pop-culture cul-de-sac is worth your attention (when, really, it's just the obscure reference he's chosen to cling to as proof that he is "authentically interesting and weird" because no one else remembered it first.)

A lot of people nowadays might look like hipsters at first blush to other generations, but in fact they're just people in their 20's and 30's who aren't yuppies or are into some kind of sub-culture (err...like this one!) or are not otherwise easily categorized. They are just "young people."

I'm 33... I would imagine at first glance some of the older folks amongst us would look at my friends and I and think us "hipsters," possibly, but in actuality we are decidedly not. We are just dudes and girls who used to go to punk rock shows, listen to a wide assortment of music (and none of us really listen to the same music) go to our jobs every day and are too old to give a shit about trying to prove anything or really care about what anyone thinks about us.

My wife and I started getting into Tiki 10 or more years back as part of the "Punk Rock Retirement Plan" (which may include forays into the rockabilly scene, country music, Tiki, etc etc, or all of the above) and neither of us could be classified as a hipster, by a long shot... neither one of us has ironic haircuts or tattoos (I don't even have hair) or is trying to prove anything.

We like to go to old places with an older crowd ourselves... Wisconsin supper clubs, old lovably crappy dive bars, old Chinese joints... it doesn't matter so long as it's got plenty of character. It feels comfortable. And as I see most of those places close in Chicago and get replaced with new flashier "hipster" bars, it saddens me. We go to as many old places as we can find when we're out of town, too, because god dammit if there isn't a point where all feels right with the world when yer perched on a stool in an interesting environment surrounded by people ready to tell you why where you are matters (and unlike obscure pop culture references, it actually DOES matter... it's a community...it's history...)

So, all that being said, with the craft cocktail scene, there's a lot of great stuff going on, but there's also a definite need to leak off some of the pretentiousness-gas, because while I like a nicely made drink, I don't personally care (nor can I tell) if the 1/8 ounce of honey in my cocktail is organic and made by rare Himalayan Mountain Bees who only produce during the peak of the summer solstice in one small village, or if it came out of a plastic bottle shaped like a bear somebody bought at Jewel. "Craft" doesn't have to be crazy and over-the-top, it just has to be not "crap."

It's good the younger folks are paying attention to what had once been relegated to being "old" and living on borrowed time - the less bars with flav-o-rite martinis of the month and "Red Headed Slut" shooters the better... that's what Buffalo Wild Wings and TGI Fridays is for. The fact that younger generations are giving that the finger is encouraging.

But there ain't nothin' wrong (or pretentious, or ironic if you're not a moron) about an old neighborhood bar, a PBR tall boy and a shot of Jim Beam. That's where you'll find the best stories...

And to keep this thing on the rails, Tiki Ti is a national treasure... only had the pleasure of visiting a few times (all in the same trip to LA) but that is the standard-bar-none for what makes a "great old place." Thank God they're comin' back... you can't make 'em like that anymore.

--Pete

Awesome Pete!
I think that covers it.

"but in order to really be a hipster, my feeling is that you really have to be trying to prove something, typically how "weird" and "unique" you are through your fashion, lifestyle and music choices. You are trying to convince people that you are unlike anyone else (and, ironically, ultimately end up being like most others you associate with."

This is the guy that went to Tropical Bistro, nailed it.
But I don't think anyone would peg him as hipster.

"But there ain't nothin' wrong (or pretentious, or ironic if you're not a moron) about an old neighborhood bar, a PBR tall boy and a shot of Jim Beam. That's where you'll find the best stories..."

True.

Pete, well said, and you made me laugh!

Ironically, in the past year, I have bought and enjoyed both PBRs, and Jim Beam Rye - the latter for making Sazeracs which (in my circle of friends) taste better than the Sazeracs made with Bullitt Rye, in case anybody else cares...

In some ways I may be more "hipster" than the hipsters themselves. For example, let me tell you about Nikola Tesla sometime, and how he was awarded the patents for the invention of radio when they were stripped from Guglielmo Marconi by the US Supreme Court. I could regale you for hours, twirling my (non-existent) handlebar mustache the whole time.

The next time I see hipsters in my fave bar, I'll raise a glass to 'em -- even if they're too cool to acknowledge in return due to my relative un-coolness.

On 2015-05-13 09:37, Tiki Toli wrote:
I have about 6 friends that are bartenders in Craft or Tiki bars. They aren't big fans of Hipsters. Their complaints are that they are cheap, don't tip well if at all, and hang way too long. Could be a regional thing though.

That is a common complaint of servers when talking about an olds (the elderly) too.