Any Deists here? (Religion thread -- READ AT OWN RISK)

If you're curious about deism or already know you're a deist, I'd like to invite you to join in The Deus Project and meet other people who share your worldview.
http://deism.org/forum/

[Edited by Hanford to put the Warning in the Subject]

[ Edited by: hanford_lemoore on 2002-10-04 20:37 ]

Are Latitudinarians invited?

According to this they're just another anecdotal Christian group... http://www.xrefer.com/entry/362660

The Deus Project is for people who have already broken free of seductress Faith and her orgasmically easy answers or are about to; that makes things a lot more productive and fun (no pointless debates on reason v. faith). Deists believe faith is one of the major negative forces in the world and is an easy cop out from the very purpose of life (to come to terms with relativism derive motivation from it). To be uncertain is to be human.

There is a growing modern deist movement that has really gotten a boost thanks to faith-based war and terrorism. I receive heartfelt testimonies and questions by email everyday from people ranging from catholic schoolchildren to former baptist ministers.

[ Edited by: kahukini on 2002-10-02 17:20 ]

All religion, no matter what unique sounding name you want to apply to it, is nothing more than an Amway sales job.

The pitch goes soemthing like this: "OK all you gotta do is join, then you get 2 people to join, then they get 2 people to join" ad nausium.

When will people learn that there is no human that is a medium between the here and now and whatever happens when we cease to exist here and now.

When man touches anything it becomes corrupted.

What you will experience when you're gone is the same thing you experience before you got here.

And now for the good news ...

A thing of tiki is a joy forever

[ Edited by: Tiki_Bong on 2002-10-02 18:02 ]

sounds like you're a deist and don't even know it. we kinda hate religion too.
check out The Age of Reason by Thomas Paine.

Kahukini,

Or is it that I just don't need a special name for it.

Me like words. I use them all the time, and they help me understand the world. In fact, I'm reading a book right now that makes extensive use of the little buggers. Last time I read one of those scratch and sniff books I couldn't follow the story.

Anytime you put more than 2 people in a room and tell them to think alike, it becomes a following and why is one following better than another. How many drug addict buddies of mine turn to GOD instead of drugs. Well, yes it is better than drugs but it is still a crutch and if you need a crutch, that is great too, and call it whatever you want.
But don't drag other brainless folks into your "you have the right to think whatever you want, as long as you think like me Bullshit"
The only true church is the church of you.
You are responible for what you do, not a group.
So whatever your opinion, work on it within you.
Make you a better place.
The minute you have to push your opinion on someone, now they become you.
Just be the best you, you can be and everything else just works out.
See that, even I want you to think one way or another. It creeps in all over.
I,m going back to my church and work on that!
Just be me
Just be me
Just be me
Another 5000 of those and I'll be OK

Easy? Hah! If you think being a devotee of religion and that faith is easy, you probably are among those whose religious education ended around age 13 and therefore think religion is facile. You would say people like Kant are dumbasses who are lead around by the nose by bigger dumbasses? That's a self-gratifyingly simple appraisal of religion.

Faith? Like faith in gravity? Faith in human decency? Or faith that what you believe is right? Even Athiests have the faith that there is no God or god and work every manifestation to fit their faith. Show me anyone who does not have a lot of faith, outside psychotic paranoids off meds.

[ Edited by: Swanky on 2002-10-03 07:46 ]

Would you include yourself as not being that medium?

Swanky,

Yes, I would include myself as not being that medium (isn't that what I wrote?).

I understand and believe in your right to believe in whatever you want. After all, you do live in the 'Bible Belt' (you don't have a choice, do you?).

Have you ever been to Jim Baker's little Christian theme park down there? Or visited the motel where Jimmy Swagart boinked his hookers? They obviously believed in something eh?

Ah, yes, the time-honored religious debate. Personally, I feel like baxdog, at least the part about the Church of Me being the only church. But you know what? It's MY OPINION. And being an opinion, it's no more right than anyone else's, and I think it's fantastic that other people find value in organized religion; I can see where for many people it brings meaning to their lives.

The only thing I don't groove on is people trying to get me to see their faith the way they do. Isn't gonna happen. So, you can be a Christian, or a Deist, or an Atheist, but please don't tell me that I'm one of those things. Because I'm not. I'm just me. I don't have an empty chasm in my life that's aching to be filled with your faith or non-faith or kinda-faith.

Like most bars or clubs, certain rules should apply here:
NO religion or politics should be discussed!
It's totally pointless.
Everyone has a different take.
Let's just leave it at that.

bigbadtikidaddy wrote:
Like most bars or clubs, certain rules should apply here:
NO religion or politics should be discussed!

Amen to that. (Whoops!)

Trader Woody

Bigbadtikidaddy is completely correct. I don't know how I let myself get knotted up in this thread.

Politics and religion (is there a difference?) drives wedges between people and that's not good.

I can honestly say I don't think there's one TC'er I don't have some sort of appreciation for (even mAd tiKi).

Love and Live Aloha!

AUGHHH Tiki_Bong I didn't know anyone cared! It's nice to know there are some people who can comprehend others views.
MaD-TiKi :evil:

Mad-Tiki,
I not only care, but I actually enjoy your posts! It cracks me up to see everyone get all bent out of shape when you post.

People, its his schtick!! Understand? He'll NEVER post a positive message!

The reason I started the deus project is to combine those bugaboos, religion and politics. I'm of the opinion that if we don't get our asses in gear we liberals will inevitably loose to conservatives because they are more inclined to reproduce, and they are more organized and fervent thanks to religion. Well, liberals have a religion too - it's militant relativism - I don't know and you don't either. If the masses of people require religious traditions and institutions for personal comfort and social reasons, then so be it - I for one am going to try to beat them at their own game, tax-exempt and all.

TikiBong: >>I don't know how I let myself get knotted up in this thread.

tikidaddy, you can enjoy your freedoms now oblivious to the threats facing them, and perhaps that's more fun in the short term, but I'm going to keep one eye open whilst I sip my martini - history is made by those who show up, and right now the ones who practice by showing up to church every sunday are getting better at it by the day.

http://www.pullmyfinger.com/sounds/Track01.wav

http://magicmartini.com/spankass.wav

Nuthin happens when I pull my finger.
Whats it all about.
My knuckle is getting sore.
I better go pull something else.
Where is your finger?
CAN SOMEONE PLEASE GIVE ME THE FINGER?

Speaking of pulling fingers you can create a great thoughtful card for all your friends here at http://www.createafart.com/index.asp

A serious discussion about religion soon descends into puerile fart jokes........

Superb! That's what I love about Tiki Central!!!

Less hand-wringing, more lime-squeezing!

Trader Woody

[ Edited by: Trader Woody on 2002-10-04 05:05 ]

Excellent!!!

This is what we have needed for a long time-- sound effects! On the program that I use for music which loads wav. files both of these played one after the other. It sure tickled my grand-daughter when she walked in this morning.

Spank my ass and call me Charlie

Trustar

i added a warning to the subject line so the more sensitive types can ignore it.

~Hanford

Good God! :roll:

[ Edited by: DawnTiki on 2002-10-04 20:47 ]

We were going to have "Sunday Service" at the store (Bamboo Ben 712 Yorktown Ave. H.B.)and I even became the Rev. Bamboo Ben (some silly website that ordains you online) but the state wouldn't grant me a liquor license!!

LIQUOR up front
Tiki in your ear
Isn't Sunday service what happens before the kids get up!

Have no brakes
Cannot stop
Mahalo to you
Baxdog

[ Edited by: thebaxdog on 2002-10-06 12:27 ]

HE turned the water into wine

Who? Mad Tiki??

Faith? Like faith in gravity?

Ummm Gravity is a scientific principle, feel free to disbelieve it the next time you step off of a tall building.

Even Athiests have the faith that there is no God or god and work every manifestation to fit their faith.

Apparently you have little understanding of atheism.

TJTA

[ Edited by: Thomas Jefferson Tiki Apartments on 2002-10-07 00:05 ]

"Fix Reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every
opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if
there be one, he must more approve the homage of reason than of blindfolded
fear. ... Do not be frightened from this inquiry by any fear of its
consequences. If it end in a belief that there is no God, you will find
incitements to virtue in the comfort and pleasantness you feel in its
exercise and in the love of others which it will procure for you"
(Jefferson's Works, Vol. ii., p. 217).

"All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish
appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave
mankind and monopolize power and profit." -Thomas Paine

"I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world,
and do not find in our particular superstition [Christianity] one redeeming
feature. They are all alike, founded upon fables and mythologies" Thomas
Jefferson (Letter to Dr. Woods).

Damned Deists! They make to much sense.
TJTA

[ Edited by: Thomas Jefferson Tiki Apartments on 2002-10-07 00:12 ]

Some Irreverent Questions Concerning God

I. Is God an Atheist?

Before the Christian dismisses atheism as irrational or condemns the
atheist as immoral, he should consider the disturbing possibility that
the God of Christianity is himself an atheist. And if this is true, it
means that the Christian worships, obeys, and has devoted his life to
an atheistic being who does not believe in any power superior to
himself, never prays, is utterly without faith, and who does not
acknowledge any authority, either cognitive or moral, external to
himself.

If theism is loosely defined as belief in a higher power, a mysterious
being whose essential nature cannot be understood (whether in whole or
in part) by the believer, then God is an atheist. He does not believe
in a power higher than himself, nor can there be anything which he
fails to understand, for nothing can be unknown or unknowable to an
omniscient being.

If theism is defined as the belief in a supernatural being, then God
is an atheist. His own powers, though supernatural from a human point
of view, are comprehensible to himself. Everything is "natural" from
God's perspective.

If theism involves a relationship of subordination and dependence
between a theist and her object of veneration, then God is an atheist.
He is a self-sufficient Being who disbelieves in any power greater
than himself. He worships nothing, never prays, never seeks
forgiveness, and never acknowledges his own errors.

If theism is the belief in a creator, or first cause, who is
ultimately responsible for one's own existence, then God is an
atheist. He believes himself to have existed eternally--though, as
Kant suggested, even God must occasionally wonder where he came from.

If theism involves the belief in an external moral authority, a being
whose moral law is obligatory for his creatures, then God is an
atheist. He does not believe in a higher law, nor does he think
himself capable of doing wrong. He does not regard himself bound to
respect the rights of any other being. God is morally autonomous, a
law unto himself.

God is therefore an atheist. Moreover, he is a positive atheist of the
most dogmatic variety, for he claims to know with absolute certainty
that there exists no being superior to himself. He is never troubled
by doubt, never re-examines any of his beliefs, and never feels
obliged to justify them.

This raises some further questions: Why, if God is himself an atheist,
should we suppose that that he disapproves of atheism among his
creatures? Is not a benevolent father pleased when his children grow
up to be like him? And how can the Christian condemn atheism per se
without also condemning their atheistic God? Is not the atheist who
strives to be like God more admirable than the Christian who merely
believes in him?

II. Is Satan a Christian?

Satan is not an atheist--that much is clear--for he believes in the
God of Christianity. We thus have the intriguing spectacle of a battle
between two titans, with God the Atheist on the side of good, and
Satan the Theist on the side of evil. And if the Bible is to be
believed, the Atheist will ultimately triumph over the Theist.

Is Satan the Theist also a Christian? Apparently so, because a
Christian is defined in terms of his beliefs, not his actions. Satan
clearly believes in the central tenets of Christianity. He believes,
for example, that Jesus, the Son of God, was sacrificed to redeem the
sins of mankind--for if Satan does not believe this, why did he tempt
Jesus in an effort to sabotage his divine mission? He also believes in
the resurrection of Jesus, in the power of God to work miracles, and
in the existence of a heaven and a hell he calls home.

Satan, a major player in many biblical events, does not have the least
doubt about the veracity of God's word. Indeed, it is impossible to
name one belief of the best Christian that Satan does not share. We
may therefore conclude that Satan is a Christian, despite his
rebellious spirit and competitive zeal. No one is perfect, after all.

(excerpt from a speech by George H. Smith)

Aloha TJTA,
Do you ever leave the house?

Its an APARTMENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sheesh!

Nice syntactical and etymological argument, but it proves little or nothing beyond having sat through Freshamn logic class.

The Ontological argument or whatever form you want to put on it, does not get at the essence of what is going on.

It all ends up sounding like "What is 2 + 2?" "Purple." And "Purple" is the correct answer!

I respect Thomas Jeffersons writings. I also have a great respect for Book Q and other efforts along that line.

Being an Athiest is as much a "faith" as following a religion because you have chosen to follow a certain precept regardless of evidence. If god appeared, an Athiest would say something silly like "that's not god, just something we don't have the science to understand yet." That's a faith that goes beyond reason.

What is really to the point is metaphysics. God, religion, etc. are a metaphysics. And just as you can't use Newton's Laws to illucidate Quantum Mechanics, there is a metaphysics which is over-arching. And logic is like using a slingshot to knock the sun out of the sky.

This metaphysics is as rational as physics, but it requires better tools than the feeble logic and linguistics that are so often being applied. Just as there is a point where light is a wave and a particle, and it is non-sensical to refer to it in such-and-such way, there is a point where words and grammar are not useful to Understand what is going on.

LETS GET DRUNK!

Can I get an Amen?!?! :drink:

On 2002-10-07 08:47, Swanky wrote:

Being an Athiest is as much a "faith" as following a religion because you have chosen to follow a certain precept regardless of evidence. If god appeared, an Athiest would say something silly like "that's not god, just something we don't have the science to understand yet." That's a faith that goes beyond reason.

Should you be able to present a falsifiable theory for god, offer it up.

Simply saying that one has seen no evidence ( get yer science dictionary out ) is not the same as saying one has a "faith that there is no god. Gimme a beaker full of god to study, and I'll pass it on to the proper labs.

Also saying that an atheist presented with a suddenly appearing god would say something "silly", speaks volumes as to your understanding of atheists.

You really should try to understand the concepts you rail against, it would prevent you from making horrid mistakes in your lines of reasoning.
TJTA

Also, presuming we're talking judeo christian god, could you narrow it down to which of the 30,000 sects of christianity's god we're arguing about?

And why does that one take precendence over any of the others?

"Most people are atheists to the majority of the gods that have ever existed, some of us go one god further."
Unknown.

Why are you folks discussing something that will never be solved between yall. LETS GET DRUNK-ER!

Also swanky, should you really feel that you've got atheists figured out, I suggest alt.atheism on usenet, Isuggest it might open your eyes, and alter your misconceptions about atheists and what you think they think.

Believe me, it's actually very easy to have no religious feelings at all. You just get up and go about your day.

I'm all for religious freedom, but even more for freedom FROM religion. Please don't knock on my door to give me badly printed magazines or give me garish books at the airport! Put something readable in hotel bedrooms! Please don't waste my valuable Tiki time on Tiki Central!!!

Trader Woody

Now to bring this back around to topic, I have been looking into Huna lately and find that various rituals used in Huna have made their way into the Western tradition. Huna seems to have made it's way to the present in good form, as opposed to many other native religions. I am far from trying to invest my Mai Tiki Guardian tiki with some sort of Huna Guardian power or spirit, but it's nice to know there are good resources.