Shag should do a tomorrowland make-over

I had a vivid dream once, that it was announced that Shag would be redoing Disney's tomorrowland completely....

I woke up so happy, and then realized it was just a damn dream, and that we would be stuck with the jules vern crap for EVER!!!
If any of you personally know Shag, please tell him to make this a priority! Bid Disney!!

I believe Shag is the only one that can turn that land back into the space-pop paradise it once was!!!!

Yup, the future sure ain't what it used to be.

Shag would be cool as the designer.

Who else would be good?

[ Edited by: Geeky Tiki on 2004-08-26 20:23 ]

That would be a dream come true, but I heard that Shag and Disney had a parting of the ways after the release of the first two lines of merchandise from his Enchanted Tiki Room 40th Anniversary collection. Apparently that's why the other two lines never came out.

[ Edited by: Tiki-Kate on 2004-08-26 19:23 ]

Someone's gotta! The Submarine Ride, the People Mover, Circle Vision, Carousel of Progress, all unused. They're supposed to be adding a new Buzz Lightyear ride (based on the one in Tokyo?), but 1/3 of Tomorrowland is unused! Hell, Jimmy Buffet could do better!

On 2004-08-26 19:14, Geeky Tiki wrote:

Who else would be good?

Syd Mead!

Actually, as much of a Disneyhead as I am, forget Tomorrowland, I'm waiting for ShagVille to open. After all, you can't drink in Disneyland.

-Z

About 3 hours ago I had a reply to this message all written and ready to send when my monitor started buzzing and crackling very loudly, then sparks shot out of one of the side vents for a good 5 seconds. It was like someone had put a sparkler in my monitor. The picture went to static, then died.

In almost 20 years of using computers I have never heard of or seen this happen. We were all stunned and the whole office started to stink with that toxic burnt circuit-board smell. So it seems that Hollywood has it right: When a computer or piece of electronic equipment dies, it really does buzz and crackle and spark - just like Star Trek!

Anyway, my monitor has been replaced and I'm back from seeing "Hero" (awesome!). I think Syd Mead would be a good choice, but he has done some attractions in Japan which I don't think would be very well understood here (too modern). Robert McCall has some reassuringly positive visions of the future that are slightly old-school and magically modern (floating cities, etc.)

Personally I've always been intrigued by Lebbeus Woods' stuff, but it would never work at D-land. Perhaps an attraction all its own, like the old Japanese Village. That would be surreal.

Tiki-bot

[ Edited by: tiki-bot on 2004-08-27 17:14 ]

Sorry, Disneyland purist here.

No Shag. No retro.

I'm against the retro-future idea for T-land.

When Walt created Disneyland, Tomorrowland wasn't "retro". It was the future. No tongue-in-cheek homage to futures past.

It was gleaming white and beautiful.

They took a wrong turn recently, and went with a jules verne look. Bad move. They realized the mistake and repainted Space Mountain white! The color it should be.

Tomorrowland needs work, sure. They're shy a few rides.

But not tongue-in-cheek or retro. Tomorrowland is supposed to be an honest look at the future, to show children a glimpse of what their lives will be. How can you take a child to Disneyland and try and explain how the Tomorrowland they see is based on futures we used to believe in and hope for, but now have given up on?

Shag is great, I love him. But Encounter is one thing, and Tomorrowland is something else.

i'm too much of a Shag fan most days, but i strongly agree with BB - i want to see THE future, not the future as of 1953.

Rem Koolhaas is the first name i thought of, even though i guess he's seen as a bit of a mainstream/sell-out designer.

i liked some of the ideas that were brought up during his guest editorship of Wired last year

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/11.06/

You want to see THE future? I don't want to see THE future as per the way things are going. I'm not gonna take this into some crazy political discussion but I'd rather see the future as per 1953. At least there was excitement and hope about the future back then.

What are we excited about now? The newest development in cell phone technology? Which next young talentless tramp is gonna be all over Mtv? Gas prices, over population, polution.... Dismal. Sorry about that.

I think a Shag tomorrowland could be pretty cool. I also know that Disneyland has a certain look that is carried through the whole park and a section of 'Shag' would stand out like a sore thumb. Cool idea though.

Enough of my jabbering.

or a dystopialand based on 'omega man' and 'soylent green'

totally sorry for saying that...

Allright Tiki Mick,

This time you're really out of the band!

On 2004-08-30 08:50, Luckydesigns wrote:
You want to see THE future? I don't want to see THE future as per the way things are going......At least there was excitement and hope about the future back then.

What are we excited about now? The newest development in cell phone technology? Which next young talentless tramp is gonna be all over Mtv? Gas prices, over population, polution.... Dismal. Sorry about that.

I think you hit the nail on the head here, LD. There was certainly more hope about the future in the mid 20th century, but people were far more ignorant of the technologies behind all the advances. Everything had a magical, modern sheen to it and everything seemd possible (or probable): Space travel, supersonic flight, moon-houses and flying cars. People are much more knowledgeable (or inundated) with technology and where it's headed because it's advertised incessantly. And like you say, a more realistic Tomorrowland would have to include the "Global Warming Theater","Third World Oil Usage" bumper cars, and "Combating the Technological Terrorist" Pavillion. These aren't exactly subjects the general population wants to see explored.

Another problem is that modern technological advances are essentially invisible. More computing power, smaller processors, wireless everything - it seems the goal nowadays is to get everything out of sight. This trend doesn't make for very exciting amusement park attractions.

So what's left? Blind optimism in the face of stark reality, all for the the sake of style? If anyone can do THAT, it's Disney.

On 2004-08-27 16:32, Tiki-bot wrote:
About 3 hours ago I had a reply to this message all written and ready to send when my monitor started buzzing and crackling very loudly, then sparks shot out of one of the side vents for a good 5 seconds. It was like someone had put a sparkler in my monitor. The picture went to static, then died.

In almost 20 years of using computers I have never heard of or seen this happen. We were all stunned and the whole office started to stink with that toxic burnt circuit-board smell.
[ Edited by: tiki-bot on 2004-08-27 17:14 ]

Tiki-bot: one of my co-workers had this exact thing happen to him a couple weeks ago. Right after he turned on his computer, he noticed a burning smell, and there were actual flames coming from the top of his monitor! He was smart enough to unplug the computer immediately.
Needless to say, the computer/monitor upgrade in our office that had been mentioned for about a year now, finally happened after that!

As for the comment above about not drinking in Disneyland: you can drink beer and wine just across the way in the CA Adventure, and just outside the gates in Downtown Disney - I highly recommend the outside UVA bar which has a decent selection of rums and attentive bartenders. I wouldn't recommend getting soused before Space Mountain, but it does help to be less bothered by the crowds when you just sort of float along in a stupor.

I don't want to see THE future as per the way things are going......At least there was excitement and hope about the future back then.

I don't know, guys - personally I still choose optimism, even if it might be called blind. I can't stand dystopian future themes. No offense if other people like to focus on the negative, but personally I don't see the attraction.

Remember that in the 50s and 60s, the Cold War presented the prospect of total mutually assured destruction, something that people often overlook when looking back today and seeing the technology-driven optimism of the mid-century. Also remember that theme parks are about escapism! At least that's why I like them, and why I like tiki too for that matter. Nobody in the 50s was interested in visiting nuclear-winter-land, even though that was one of the stark realities of the day. I do agree though that people have probably gotten more sophisticated and skeptical about the future that is marketed to them, and that there actually may be a larger proportion of the population that somehow enjoys visions of a dark future. But I'm not in that group.

If you really look around, many of the mid-century futurist concepts have come to life! Picture phones, image walls (ie, flat panel TVs), instant worldwide communications, centralized and distributed in-home controls, GPS, and on and on. Even 25 years ago a lot of this would've been pure fantasy.

Regarding Shag and Tomorrowland, actually I wouldn't use the term retro for Shag. I think his style is more about a specific esthetic than about a specific time. My opinion is that he could develop some fantastic designs for Tomorrowland, not necessarily sticking to the style of his paintings, but just based on his esthetic and also his extensive "graphic vocabulary". But still, I'm not sure that he'd be the right person.

Someone like Frank Gehry could do a neat job. He seems like one of the best known modern architects with the ability to offer a modern, non-retro vision of the optimistic future. In fact, look at the convention center that Disney already had him design. But still, everything by Gehry looks just like Gehry, so there would probably be too much individual identity, as opposed to a broader future theme.

-Randy

On 2004-08-30 13:18, dangergirl299 wrote:
As for the comment above about not drinking in Disneyland: you can drink beer and wine just across the way in the CA Adventure, and just outside the gates in Downtown Disney

You can drink at Club 33 in New Orleans Square -- if you can get in.

On 2004-08-30 14:10, cynfulcynner wrote:

On 2004-08-30 13:18, dangergirl299 wrote:
As for the comment above about not drinking in Disneyland: you can drink beer and wine just across the way in the CA Adventure, and just outside the gates in Downtown Disney

You can drink at Club 33 in New Orleans Square -- if you can get in.

Yeah yeah yeah. I know all that, but wouldn't it be fun to have some Stoli on Space MT., rum in Pirates, a bloody mary in the Haunted Mansion or a mai tai in the TikiRoom?

-Z

Monsanto's "House of the Future" at Disneyland, 1957.
Read this short exert. Amazingly, everything the house predicted, came true.
http://www.yesterland.com/futurehouse.html

On 2004-08-30 15:27, Unga Bunga wrote:
Monsanto's "House of the Future" at Disneyland, 1957.
Read this short exert. Amazingly, everything the house predicted, came true.
http://www.yesterland.com/futurehouse.html

I want to live in a house that wrecking balls bounce off of! Like a Nerf house!

That's now the site where you can get your pic taken with Ariel.

Nice link, Unga. But the fact that their "predictions" came true isn't so astounding when you consider it was the very industries that built those attractions whose technologies were being promoted. They essentially used the attractions to "sell" them to the public, and they seemed to be mostly successful at it.

I don't have any problem with this except that it imposes limits on imagination. Corprations are only interested in promoting what they can sell now or the very near future, and are fairly myopic when it comes to exploring the many other opportunities that might exist for those products. I don't recall any of those exhibits saying we would use lasers to read compact disks, though the lasers' first patent was submitted in 1959.

I agree with ARJ that the future image should be of a positive one. Many people can appreciate dystopian imagery when it's used for effect in a movie or book, but would generally feel it is not appropriate for a theme park, at least not Disneyland.

It would be very difficult to come up with an entirely new futuristic archetype since product cycles are a tiny fraction of what they once were. Almost any design would tend to look dated almost instantly. I think it is possible, but it would take an awful lot of skill and careful thought. Personaly, I would find that a fascinating job, though I am not known to possess either of those traits.

The present has always sucked, it's just the past thirty years or so that the tide changed and the majority started believing that the future would suck too.

I think it started happening when Blade runner came out....that movie all to accurately predicted a dark and dirty future..gone was the optimism shown by Disney!

Unfortunatly, Disney was wrong and Ridley Scott was right!

On 2004-08-30 14:09, aquarj wrote:

I don't want to see THE future as per the way things are going......At least there was excitement and hope about the future back then.

I don't know, guys - personally I still choose optimism, even if it might be called blind. I can't stand dystopian future themes. No offense if other people like to focus on the negative, but personally I don't see the attraction.

Remember that in the 50s and 60s, the Cold War presented the prospect of total mutually assured destruction, something that people often overlook when looking back today and seeing the technology-driven optimism of the mid-century. Also remember that theme parks are about escapism! At least that's why I like them, and why I like tiki too for that matter. Nobody in the 50s was interested in visiting nuclear-winter-land, even though that was one of the stark realities of the day. I do agree though that people have probably gotten more sophisticated and skeptical about the future that is marketed to them, and that there actually may be a larger proportion of the population that somehow enjoys visions of a dark future. But I'm not in that group.

If you really look around, many of the mid-century futurist concepts have come to life! Picture phones, image walls (ie, flat panel TVs), instant worldwide communications, centralized and distributed in-home controls, GPS, and on and on. Even 25 years ago a lot of this would've been pure fantasy.

Regarding Shag and Tomorrowland, actually I wouldn't use the term retro for Shag. I think his style is more about a specific esthetic than about a specific time. My opinion is that he could develop some fantastic designs for Tomorrowland, not necessarily sticking to the style of his paintings, but just based on his esthetic and also his extensive "graphic vocabulary". But still, I'm not sure that he'd be the right person.

Someone like Frank Gehry could do a neat job. He seems like one of the best known modern architects with the ability to offer a modern, non-retro vision of the optimistic future. In fact, look at the convention center that Disney already had him design. But still, everything by Gehry looks just like Gehry, so there would probably be too much individual identity, as opposed to a broader future theme.

-Randy

I gotta agree here, the future holds alot of promise. We already have:

Robot Vacumns, like Roomba from iRobot;

Flying Cars, like the M400 from Moller;

Mega-Float Floating islands, like this test airstrip in Tokyo Bay.

Imagine future developments like space environments that are Fuller spheres made made up of inflated polygonal plastic bubbles with carbon nanotube spars & wires in tension for structural integrity, built like russian nesting dolls with micro-G water filled algae & krill farms on the outside to create air & protein, and to absorb radiation & micrometeorites before they can reach the inner spheres' living quarters.

Or a sea going, floating city with a population of several million, that's built out of thousands of individual interlinked floating blocks, powered by nothing more than the temprature differential between the surface & the water 100 feet below the water, and that can travel around the ocean like a giant Portugese Man-O-War.

Or using a series of hollowed out asteroids set in eccentric, cometary orbits outside of the plane of the ecliptic to run as "shuttles" between the Earth & Mars, the asteroid belt & the outer solar system's Gas Giants (Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus & Neptune) to transfer goods & people "up" to the outer solar system and send goods & raw materials back "down" here.

Or starships traveling to our nearest exrasolar neighbors powered by hexagonal solar sails miles on a side but only 2 atoms thick and driven forward by nothing more than the weight of the photons in a ray of sunshine; sails raised, reefed & repaired by an army of tiny insect-like robots, and pulling a payload of 500 people & everything they need to build their own space environments around another star, & build more starships to go even further out...

This is the way it should be...

Unfortunatly, Disney was wrong and Ridley Scott was right!

i don't agree. i've walked through some very "Blade Runner-ish" cities - Tokyo, Riyadh, Osaka, Shanghai, Abu Dhabi, Hong Kong - and haven't seen anything "cyberpunk." I usually see happy people wandering around, drinking Cokes, and eating hamburgers (even the women in Riyadh who are stuck wearing their "garb").

Ridley Scott has 15 years to prove himself right - i bet there won't even be those cool umbrellas with lights by then (unfortunately).

Katsuhiro Otomo has already been corrected - where's Neo-Tokyo?

William Gibson is even upbeat nowadays - where'd the beast-USSR go?

You would think all the anti-depressants Americans are taking would lighten them up a little...

Actually, when I think of what the future will look like, I can't get "Brazil" out of my head. It really seems the most prescient of "future movies". It's an almost unbearably morbid scene, but when the terrorist attack happens in the restaurant and they put up a divider and emplore patrons to keep eating, I get the sickly feeling that this is about 30 seconds into our own future. Or the present if you live in Isreal.

I love the view of the future in that film. It's not the one I want to live, but is certainly the one that seems most likely at this point.

Oh man, that picture of tommorrowland terrace is so freaking cool! Thanks for sharing!!!!!

I remember some of the names of the house band that played there...friendship train, sunshine balloon,...(or was it the other way around?)

anyway, I remember being about 10 and just totally rocking out to the band..while my brother and sister went on the scary rides like space mountain, I was totally into the band.I remember thinking "that bass drum is so well miked"!! As I recall, it was Disco/top forty that they played..right on!!

On 2004-09-03 02:26, Tiki-bot wrote:
Actually, when I think of what the future will look like, I can't get "Brazil" out of my head.

After working at a job that required me to do business with various San Francisco city agencies, I can tell you that the future depicted in "Brazil" is already here, but no one speaks your language.

I remember some of the names of the house band that played there...friendship train, sunshine balloon,...(or was it the other way around?)

What about Polo?

On 2004-08-30 14:09, aquarj wrote:

If you really look around, many of the mid-century futurist concepts have come to life! Picture phones, image walls (ie, flat panel TVs), instant worldwide communications, centralized and distributed in-home controls, GPS, and on and on. Even 25 years ago a lot of this would've been pure fantasy.

As much as I appreciate Shag, I find that I must agree that Tommorrowland should be an optimistic view of the potential future. And aquarj tells us why right above. People, particularly children saw all these cool futuristic ideas at Disney, Star Trek and such, and over 20, 30, 50 years, went out and made them happen.. We still need that.

The dystopias that became fashionable in the 70's and on also serve as a needed warning so that people may choose to prevent them from occuring. But, since D-Land bills itself as "The Happiest Place On Earth" (tm), they should stick to selling the optimistic view. I don't need Disney to make me maudlin about the unfulfilled promise of atomic flying cars and moon cities.

\

[ Edited by: Philot on 2004-09-05 23:47 ]

Funny you should mention Lebbeus Woods -- I think his work did influence WDW's Tomorrowland makeover to a certain degree. There is a series of overhangs on top of the revamped Mission to Mars/Alien Encounter/Stitch's Escape building that are eerily similar to one of his painting in a book I have.

I don't know if we'll ever see a 'real' Tomorrowland again. The creative juices don't seem to be flowing in Glendale anymore, at least as far as Tomorrowlands go. I had an interview there about a decade ago in a misguided attempt to become an Imagineer -- my portfolio project was a revamp of WDW's Tomorrowland that took place in the future, would have been relatively cheap to build, and would have been pretty darn cool if I say to myself.

Note to future designers: Tomorrowland doesn't have to be on Earth.

On 2004-09-06 21:33, Hot Lava wrote:
There is a series of overhangs on top of the revamped Mission to Mars/Alien Encounter/Stitch's Escape building that are eerily similar to one of his painting in a book I have.

Which LW book and page #? I'd like to check it out.

ALso, it seems as though Disney is more interested these days in co-branding their attractions (Stitch's Escape) than in presenting an objective (or at least corporate-sponsored) look at the future.

I have to take back what I said about the architecture being inspired by the Woods book. After finally finding the book and looking through it, there is no lift.

Damn, but I made a poor conspiracy theorist.