Tiki and christians

How do some of you christians cope with the pagan idolatry side of tiki?. A bud came by the other day and when setting his eyes on the altar in the livingroom he cringed, lost color and shook his head!.

[ Edited by: twowheelin'tiki on 2004-09-30 22:33 ]

On 2004-09-30 22:33, twowheelin'tiki wrote:
How do some of you christians cope with the pagan idolatry side of tiki?.

They pray for your soul. I should know my Aunt is a devout Christian, God Bless her but she sees things in a very different light from others.

TWT,
How’s it goin man?
Missed ya at the Super Bikes this year.
Anyway, this topic burns my fingers even if I think about touchin it.
A can of worms, I don't think any of us wants to open up. (Too close to politics.)
Just another one of Ungas' stupid opinions. :D

It is not an "us vs them" question, I honestly want to know if anyone has had this happen to them and how the christians among us feel about it. I work with 4 born again guys in my shop, and they also get the willies when I get a tiki statue or some related items.I just remind them that to me it is art and represents a distant paradise.This CAN NOT be a hot topic cuz anyone that is here reading this (christian or not) is one of us already, so they could not be offended!.

There is a bit of difficulty in my office with the born-agains who have lots of iconpography around, tolerating my kooky eccentricity. (which includes tiki)

I bought a carved wooden satin and he holds a bag that sez "Lover Boy"...he sits on my Dell for luck, and to hold my pen.

It's been discussed in administrative meetings more than once. I'm not particularly attached to him...but I act like I am, and won't budge when people say he looks at them, or gives them the creeps.

The thing I find most ironic is the word "Tolerance" so often used in these discussions.

"That thing is evil"

Judge not and ye shall not be judged, Satin sez.

The tikis don't raise an eyebrow anymore, unless they have a penis.

[ Edited by: Gigantalope on 2004-10-01 08:27 ]

Christianity was responsible for trying to wipe out tiki in the first place so just think of it them trying to be consistant

On 2004-10-01 07:52, twowheelin'tiki wrote: I work with 4 born again guys in my shop, and they also get the willies when I get a tiki statue or some related items.

Just pretend to get the willies when you see their little Mary statues, crosses, and stuff like that.

I noticed from the back of my 'Festival Polynesia!' album that The Polynesian Cultural Center in Hawaii is actually run by 'The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints'. Perhaps if you point this out to them, it'll relieve any friction...

Trader Woody

Wait a second...

I always thought my Mr. Bali Hai mug was supposed to be an image of God.

You're telling me IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE A HEADHUNTER...?!

:)

me and the wahinie were both raised in catholic families, and only her grandma has said anything about it, she walked into our tiki room, and said' "is this some cult thing?"...and we busted out laughin.....in her grandma's defense, she is a sweet elderly woman

My guess is that few of us have tikis in their home because of the religous significance of the carvings. I hear few posts about any of us making offerings or sacrifices, except in a joking fashion.

I would argue that most of us are into tiki because of the pop culture/ retro urban archaeology aspect of it. In that sense, we may be more culturally conservative - because we are trying to conserve part of our pop-cultural heritage, a way of looking at life that existed more strongly 40 years ago. It is an appreciation for the era when Hawaii was being welcome into the U.S. as the 50th state, when Martin Denny instead of Britney Spears was on the top of the charts. Very few religous conservatives would argue that this is bad.

This attitude transfers to the resurgence of burlesque. It is a throwback to the more seductive style of striptease popular in the 50's, and a turning away from the more hard-core porn available today. Yet, even with its more innoncent teasing, there are many who will condemn the modern burlesque movement, just because nudity is involved.

My guess is that these people would be less worried about us, if they knew we were more into the scene because of the 'tiki design and drinking' side of it, rather than the 'false worship' side of things. They may still not approve of our drinking, but that sin is probably more acceptable to them, or at least more understandable, than worshipping false idols.

So, my suggestion is to highlight to those co-workers the retro nature of the tiki scene, and de-emphasise the pagan worhip side of it.

Vern

Or, better yet, stop sacrificing your co-workers...

While in college lived in the guest cottage of a large estate and had a small ceramic tiki hanging on the wall outside my door. One day I came home and found it broken in pieces on the ground. It was securely attached to the wall, so it was highly suspicious, especially since the owners never came near my front door. The landlady was a hard-core Christian and had asked me about the idol before and had a sort of sour look on her face whenever she spoke of it. She admitted she had accidentally knocked it off the wall and was sorry, but I always thought she knocked it off on purpose. Funny how some people take things so seriously, but I guess that's the nature of religion. I have far more issue with people who think tiki has to do with keg parties and Jimmy Buffet. That, more than anything, is why I gave up trying to explain tiki to people.

Just remember-people are people and even though they some may people belong to a particular group--like Christians, Tiki Central folk, Steelers Fans, etc. they don't ALL act or THINK the same. There is variety in every group/race/whatever I can think of. Generalizing (unless it is acknowledged as such) can be a dangerous habit to get in to. I know some devout Christians who are Tiki Central members and a good friend of mine would probably shock you all if you ever talked to this person about how deeply he/she beleives in Christ. Sometimes the few can really spoil it for the whole. Example; not all Christians have picketed at or bombed Abortion clinics or shot at their Doctors, but it is more "fun" for the media to sensationalize when it does happen and those folks who call themselves Christians then taint the public image of other Christians. All Christians are not over the top "bible bashers" waiting to point out every "sin" or evil deed that others do or are about to do. The ones that shake their heads at your office are, at least least, just people who don't understand what you like. For the most part, I beleive in whatever power you give "idols". If you want it to be your GOd, then for you if may very well be. Antique idols that have some history, like something that was used for sacrifices could possibly have some evil Ju-ju in it so one would have to work hard to "purify" it if you don't want "evil" in your house. My point may not be coming off that well-I hope you all can figure out what I am saying.
I do agree that some might ind this a volatile topic, but I thank you for bringing it up.-- Mr Smiley

On 2004-10-01 10:24, Stainless Steel Tiki wrote:
Or, better yet, stop sacrificing your co-workers...

Or, maybe you need to start.....j/k

On 2004-10-01 07:52, twowheelin'tiki wrote:
It is not an "us vs them" question, I honestly want to know if anyone has had this happen to them and how the christians among us feel about it.

Otay. I get ya now.

This is an interesting topic, but how has it escaped your notice that religious subject matters are not topics for discussion at TC?

One of my aunts is a nun over in Toronto...she's a little different though. As soon as she's away from the convent she wants a martini!

Here is a little ditty that deals these ideas:

"Missionary's Downfall"
The Planet Smashers

Everybody on your knees
"It's God" say the "Polynesse" [Sic]
They worship me mistakenly
I say "Tiki, who was he?"
Trader Vic at Hinky Dink's
He liked sex and he liked to drink
Built a temple to have fun
Huri Popo everyone

Aku-Aku, Mai-tai
Tonight's the night it'll be just fine
Gombay Smash or Kapu-Kai
Can't be bothered by the 9 to 5
Gotta get down at the coconut lounge tonight

Island people are a generous bunch
Offering drinks and buffet lunch
No missionary could ever see
Their downfall in Tahiti
Could this be paradise?
Hula skirts are really nice
Sweet and fruity drinks with ice
If I die this would suffice

Aku-Aku, Mai-tai
Tonight's the night it'll be just fine
Gombay Smash or Kapu-Kai
Can't be bothered by the 9 to 5
Come on I wuna lei ya at the coconut lounge tonight
Aku-Aku, Mai-tai
Tonight's the night it'll be just fine
Gotta get down at the coconut lounge tonight
Aku-Aku, Mai-tai
Tonight's the night it'll be just fine
Gombay Smash or Kapu-Kai
Can't be bothered by the 9 to 5
Gotta get down at the coconut lounge tonight

I purposefully avoid "genuine" artifacts, and have only poly pop items in my home. I think the real deal pieces are beautiful, historical, and meaningful - but quite possibly meaningful in a way that I don't want to promote. I'll let somebody else have those. (I don't think anyone ever worshipped my El Bastardo mug.)

A friend of mine, when her father died, chose to sell off the pieces of his vast pre-Colombian collection that were involved in sacrifice, especially that of children. She kept her favorite pieces, all of which were without religious significance. She also happens to have been a missionary in the Phillipines for decades (and did not go around burning idols, etc., I might add). I bought some of the non-religious items myself.

That's my way of dealing with my beliefs and my hobby. I am NOT trying to stir up trouble, and I am answering what I feel to be an honest question.

i agree with mrsmley on this. i have grown up in the church my whole life and i have no problem with tikis. i think it's how you look at it. i look at them as something cool looking and how talented someone has to be to create them. i have 2 that i've bought and 2 i've carved myself plus about 12 mugs or so. i don't worship them, i just like they way they look. we have a luau every summer at our church to bring in the new sixth graders into the youth group. we get a lot of decorations from oceanic arts(it's right down the street). we have a samoan church come and do some songs and dances and everyone has a great time. the youth pastor is a friend of mine and he bought tiki for their house at the long beach tiki festival. his wife wants me to carve a tiki during the luau next summer. so i think it just depends on how people look at it. i haven't heard anything negative about it said at my church. i think it's fun to collect and a great form of art to create something so cool out of a piece of wood, but i don't worship it. maybe i'm just not as uptight about it as some others might be.

[ Edited by: tiki5-0 on 2004-10-01 16:01 ]

I Love Tiki's!!! They never dissappoint me. They make me happy!!! THANK GOD FOR TIKI'S And THE PEOPLE THAT LOVE TIKI'S TOO!

I was being waaayy to general in this Post So I took my comments out.

I am not trying to offend anyone. And I'll try not to be as closed minded as my comments were!!!
Sorry,
Spermy

[ Edited by: The Sperm Whale on 2004-10-02 13:22 ]

I believe that the key is knowing your own intentions and if you fail to please your guests...well thats too bad. We have a mix of figurines and depictions throughout our home and yard. Religious as well as Tiki.We are Christians and we enjoy polynesian
decor. I see no conflict. There is a small shelf in our home which has a few comical Red devils grouped together. However,
there are also numerous paint by number Jesus paintings on our walls and some people view that as a tacky way of portraying the Lord.
I disagree.
The thing is we don't worship tikis. We decorate with them. We have numerous Christian figurines but they are not displayed with the tiki items on the same shelf. You have to use a little bit of tact when displaying things. I do understand though how someone might be confused if you display a large tiki next to a crucifix for example. For my own satisfaction, I am currently working on changing our yard around to respectfully display Christian and Tiki yard ornamants in harmony. It just takes a bit of thought to find the proper placement for everything. In summation I think I would have to say that if a person really knows you, they will know where your devotions lie. Amen.

8 foot has got it down to a "T". Well done. Oh, Floritina, this was/is not a topic about religion, but how the christians feel about tiki idols.Great posts!!, where is that cool guy with the slide gee-tar?(BONG), he should have some cool ideas on this.

I have been a Christian for many years and very active in my Church, (Calvary Chapel) as is my whole family. I have tons of TiKi stuff, nobody has ever said a word or even lifted an eyebrow. I have never hid any TiKi stuff when fellow Christians come over, however I do hide the beer and wine when my brother-in-law comes over, as he is a recovering alcoholic. I don’t think anyone regards a TiKi as a deity anymore, its part of a sub-culture just like my retro stuff, nor do I worship my lava lamp. Someone asked in a thread “what is TiKi”, and no one even alluded to gods. I get a kick out of one answer who said Christians don’t want me to have fun, you don’t know the right Christians then, we have a ball. (At the risk of having another thread locked on me…I am ashamed) Jesus said the two most important commandments are, Thou shall love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second like unto it is this, Thou shall love thy neighbor as thyself. That is the basis for Christianity, Love, not commendation. Thanks for asking the question.

I don't have any "Christian" friends. The only church going Christians I know are my wifes Father and his second wife. From what I can tell they have no problem with the tikis, as they've bought me several. My support of Unions definately bugs them. And the 10 volume set of Aleister Crowely's Equinox might bother them a bit.
But they know one thing, I will not be someone other than myself. So they don't bother to try to make me be somethig I am not, and I return the favor.
Tiki Gardener

PS If your a christian, and you enjoy my posts, then I guess you are at least an acqaintance, and perhaps should you stop by my bar when I finally build it, you will be a friend. I do want to make clear that by saying I don't have any christian friends, that I mean the immediate circle of people I regularly interact with on a face to face basis. I dabbled with xtianity when I was younger, but it didn't do anything for me.
And if it does something for you, I have absolutley no probelm with that.

I must now go light some Jah-sticks at my shrine to Syd Barret.

[ Edited by: tikigardener on 2004-10-01 20:45 ]

Something I still don't get, is it still seen as wrong to actually worship Tiki (in any form) especially if it's a part of your culture?

Here's what's funny to me when my family, a rather actively church-going bunch visit me from the mainland ( I live in Hawaii now). The tikis don't bother them in the least..I gather they think of them as "decorative Polynesian items", yet they take great offense at some kitschy paintings I had of topless "Polynesian" women.
It seemed odd to me, being an openly gay man, why those paintings offended them so much when they were obviously not ther for my sensual arrousal. And yet, they took no offense at the tikis which, in reality, DO represent an alternative world view of the faith I was brought up in. I wouldn't say I "worship" tikis, but they do embody the idea of an attraction to that which is "different" and somehat "earth-bound" or "earth-based."
Anyway,,it just strikes me as kinda funny.

*On 2004-10-02 01:51, cheekytiki wrote:*Something I still don't get, is it still seen as wrong to actually worship Tiki (in any form) especially if it's a part of your culture?
Hey, Cheekytiki-

Well, for one, I'm not sure that (m)any cultures today actually do worship their carved tiki statues. I think the closest they might come is having a statue representing a god whom they worship. The representation case has been the norm throughout history. (E.g., the golden calf that caused all the trouble with the Old Testament Isrealites was not being worshipped per se; it was the throne on which Baal sat.) I could be WAY off there about tiki though, admittedly knowing close-to-nothing about modern tribal worship in Polynesia.

Secondly, and importantly, I suspect that's where it branches into "discussing religion" (taboo on TC) versus "How do Christians who are into tiki feel about it? and "What do I say to my Christians friends/family who are shocked by my collection?" (which apparently are ok, as this thread has not yet been locked).

In other words, discussing here what or whom you choose to worship and why, I think, is going to get us into taboo territory. I'd be glad to make this an email discussion with you though, as I suspect many who have contributed here might as well.

Cheers!
alice b

maybe the paintings bugged them cuz they could not see the whole package!

On 2004-10-01 15:52, Formikahini wrote:
(I don't think anyone ever worshipped my El Bastardo mug.)

Never underestimate the enthusiasm of a Munktiki collector.

The only note of disapproval I've ever heard at all was from a flea market dealer who told me he didn't "hold with that kind of stuff." One dealer in thousands I've encountered, and in the Bible belt at that...not bad.

A few weeks ago in Golden City, MO, I saw a flyer for a summer church camp that portrayed a smiling thatch-like creature which looked very tiki-like. I thought about posting that at the time, but decided to let the historical irony alone.

The Christians that I personally know don't seem to have a problem with tiki.

One of my best friends is a seminary student in a large hispanic Catholic family; they have a table in their living room with all sorts of religious statues (to which I enjoy adding from my travels, even though I am not a believer) and they have no problem with me having a house full of tiki.

Some members of my girlfriend's family who are very conservative Christians tagged along when we visited Hale Tiki. They got into the spirit (even wearing aloha shirts), had a blast and added tiki mugs to their Christian and patriotic decor.

I think most of the people around me, Protestant, Catholic, Wiccan, etc. saw tiki as poly-pop without knowing the term existed; some told me stories of souvenir shops or tiki bars they saw in past decades when they learned of my hobby. I suppose they get that my interest is a historical and pop-culture reverence, but not a worship. If I had any real artifacts, I think they'd look at them as just that - artifacts - and not recommedations to worship a deity.

The only voice of concern from someone in my sphere of influence was from my brother's girlfriend who asked me if I was bothered by tiki imagery not being accurate to Polynesian history.

Maybe I'm just lucky and surrounded by moderates, but the diversity of beliefs in the people around me, their ability to play nice together and their more than occasional sense of humor about their own beliefs really enhances my life.

I got this last spring in the mail from a local church and filed it away for future use, I like the way they conveniently ignore the tiki in the imagery.

Do you think they paid House Industries for the fonts?

yeah, i saw those lava island flyers at my local grocery this past summer.

where jesus' love flows?

that's just horrible!

Like HOT LAVA!

Now I have that South Park song stuck in my head...

I'm a Christian who prays and reads the Bible daily. I appreciate tiki art for it's artistic value and it's place in American pop culture. I get great enjoyment out of collecting and creating tiki art - others may collect or draw Mickey Mouse or anything else. There may be some Christians who find it offensive, just as some may even find earrings offensive. They are following their convictions, and that's not wrong either in my opinion (as long as they are not hurting others). As for me, I've always felt that what really matters is what's in one's heart - regardless of whether they wear earrings or collect tiki.

http://www.samgambino.com

[ Edited by: Sam Gambino on 2004-10-03 06:58 ]

The floor is made of LAVA!

Great thread and nice to read such a mature discussion about this. Marian and I are Catholic Christians.
We don't worship our tikis or mugs, just as we don't worship the Crucifix or the Virgin Mary (although some protestants seem to think Catholics do this.)
A big part of tiki and TC is aloha, which is love, and that is very Christian.
The one thing that does bother me from time to time -- and also bothers at least one of my non-Christian friends that is into tiki -- is the sometimes obsessive materialistic part of collecting tiki. Like any hobby or interest, tiki needs to be kept in perspective and not pursued to the point of harming other parts of your life like family relationships, finances or health. This can easily happen, however.
I think that is why Jesus counseled against building up treasures on earth to the point of neglecting people. Our friend Bong makes this same point when he says his family comes before tiki.
A positive thing about collecting tiki, however, is it is one of the ways we form a bond on this board and go on to build caring realtionships about each other. In fact, I have to say some of the biggest-hearted people I have ever met are my fellow TCers, no matter what their faith is.
Overall, this Christian is keeping his mugs and menus and trying to keep balance in the rest of his life.
Peace & Aloha,
KG

Well said KG. Moderation in everything, introspection keeps a man balanced. My TC ohana is a lot like the family I had in church.
Jackalope pointed out the patience and tolerance exhibited by Christians towards Tiki/Polynesian culture. It wasn't always that way. The book "Hawaii" by James Michener illustrates this well. Learn from the past and teach your children love. The world changes not by one generation but with patience over many generations.

:music: Somewhere over the rainbow.....
blue birds fly :music:

On 2004-10-02 23:58, Tikiwahine wrote:
The floor is made of LAVA!

YAY!! It has been a long time since I played that game! (It used to piss off my parents, throwing the couch cushions on the floor and standing on the coffee table!) tee hee!!

Next Hukilau--we must have a giant "hot Lava" pit!!!

fred schneider: "i'm going to go jump in a crater"
women: "see you later..."

re: the whole "worshipping" thing, i have always been amused by the notion that if one displays the image of something one is automatically worshipping it. but then, this is my western perspective because that is precisely why islamic art has typically been abstract and geometrical {when not being infulenced by western artistic ideas} [art history specialists can probably kick my ass now].

but back to my 'amused' part, if someone presents the notion that you are worshipping your ceramic/wood image of a proto-human, counter with asking if they are worshipping the photos of their kids or the painting of the countryside hanging on their wall ~ or better yet the cast concrete squirrel in their yard :)

[ Edited by: Johnny Dollar on 2004-10-04 14:04 ]

[but back to my 'amused' part, if someone presents the notion that you are worshipping your ceramic/wood image of a proto-human, counter with asking if they are worshipping the photos of their kids or the painting of the countryside hanging on their wall ~ or better yet the cast concrete squirrel in their yard :)

HEY, I am a tunic wearin' member of the CCSC! (the cast concrete squirrel cult!) :)

On 2004-10-02 22:26, Sam Gambino wrote:
I'm a Christian who prays and reads the Bible daily. I appreciate tiki art for it's artistic value and it's place in American pop culture. I get great enjoyment out of collecting and creating tiki art - others may collect or draw Mickey Mouse or anything else. There may be some Christians who find it offensive, just as some may even find earrings offensive. They are following their convictions, and that's not wrong either in my opinion (as long as they are not hurting others). As for me, I've always felt that what really matters is what's in one's heart - regardless of whether they wear earrings or collect tiki.

---

http://www.samgambino.com

[ Edited by: Sam Gambino on 2004-10-03 06:58 ]

I couldn't have said it better.

I'm not a Christian in the orginized church going kind of way but more just a believer in Christ. In a lot of Christian eyes this would be wrong but the ideals of Christ are the key. As Sam said your heart will tell you what is right and what is wrong and to me this is what really matters.

Christian fanaticism is the problem. As goes for any religion or anything else for that matter. To busy judging others and missing the point.

I have read books on almost every religion and the point is always the same and that's to love one another and to collect ceremics (ok maybe not the last one).

So be it, the Nefilim will come again.

Isn't there something about "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's Ren Clark severed head"?

Oops. Guess I broke another...

Heres to Elyzium.

On 2004-10-04 19:06, TikiGardener wrote:
Heres to Elyzium.

Elyzium? People of the fiery rockets!

This is a drawing I finished about 2 months ago. The title is "Jesus Loves Tiki". For some reason shutterfly cut off the edges.

[ Edited by: Swamp Fire on 2004-10-04 21:01 ]

On 2004-10-04 19:42, FLOUNDERart wrote:

On 2004-10-04 19:06, TikiGardener wrote:
Heres to Elyzium.

Elyzium? People of the fiery rockets!

Marduk totally rules!

My Holy Trinity Dashboard Confessional consists of a Hula Girl, bobble head Ku & Rat Fink ona Skateboard. As the late great Johnny Cash would say..."reach out & touch faith".