Having Kids is for people with Unsatisfying Careers?

I was listening to a radio show the other night and the shows host made a comment that I found interesting.

His opinion is that having children is a great thing to do if you have an unsatisfying career. I guess its his opinion that a fulfilling job fills your life with more meaning and without that job, children can provide you with a similar sense of purpose.

As a person with kids, I thought about that statement for a moment to reflect on my own choices.

I have an OK job/career, but I have never really defined myself by what I do for money but rather the choices I make elsewhere in my life.

My relationships, Hobbies, and Kids are where my value lay.

What do you think?

On 2005-07-26 13:36, Monkeyman wrote:
His opinion is that having children is a great thing to do if you have an unsatisfying career.

Having children is a great thing to do if you are independently wealthy. :lol:

two separate couples near and dear to my heart just miscarried (my sister in fact is in the hospital right now).

So my take is on it: if you are able to have children, count yourself blessed and lucky. none of that other stuff matters.

Were you listening to Phil Hendrie?

My European buddies tell me that when you ask someone over there what they do they'll answer "I ski. I bicycle. I like to bake. I climb mountains." Mostly hobbies and other rec. stuff like that.

In America the answer is always "I'm an accountant. I'm a mechanic. I'm a talk show host." Always with the profession first.

That was their observation and I've found it to be pretty accurate.

Defining oneself by job is uniquely American.
Therefore, children, being difficult and not monetarily rewarding would be looked upon as liabilities from a self-centered mouth breather's point of view.

I'm quitting my job and growing what's left of my hair long and starting a commune right now.

I think if you have kids (or other such dependants), it's not about "liking" your job/career anymore...you NEED it whether you like it or not. Your universe has expanded beyond your personal desires. So maybe people with kids tend to stay with "unsatisfying careers" because they have taken responsibility for the well-being of someone other than themselves. And a job is just a job, your family is your life.

Good point peej!

I never want to have kids. My leisure time is the most important thing to me - traveling, seeing bands, dining out, etc. My job isn't bad but it's only a way to provide the means to have quality leisure time. I'll never have enough vacation. I wish I had 6 weeks to 2 months of vacation a year instead of a measly 2 weeks.

Having kids (and even pets) is too much of a sacrifice for me. I like having the freedom to go when and where I please.

If I won the lottery I probably would quit working but pick up more hobbies and do some volunteering to keep busy.

Good point Pablus! A friend from Philadelphia was visiting me a while back, and she was saying that she hated living in NY, because people always asked what she did in terms of work, and never what she did for fun, artistic expression, etc. (She's an independent filmmaker, who has a day job taping depositions)

I've always liked San Francisco, because amongst my friends, it always seemed that people had their day jobs, and their 'stuff they do, creatively' I work in a design/ad agency, but I also do photography, bike, tiki stuff, music etc.

I actually love my job, and I'm having a kid. I guess some people aren't so lucky to have great bosses, a supportive work environment and cool co-workers. Both of my bosses have been incredibly supportive of my choice to have a kid, both of them have kids, and started their own business so they could enjoy them more. During the summer we usually have one kid around during the week. Of course the down side is that I make about $20K less a year than I would if I worked at huge agency, needed to commute and be in the office 60 hours a week. We can live with that. But, I worked at some horrific jobs in the last few years, and feel like I paid my dues, and can really appreciate the pros vs. cons of this job.

I think Americans have a weird double standard, we preach about family values, but don't actually do much to encourage people having kids responsibly, or having the resources to care for them, or raise them properly. But, I don't want to go down THAT road on TC :wink:

It is sad that so much of our value is placed on what we do (do you have a real job?) how much $$ we make, and we kind of miss the whole quality of life measurement. We're constantly debating whether to stay in the Bay Area and run the treadmill of the rat race, or cash out and live someplace cheaper, where neither of us will be able to find jobs we like as easily. It's a tough choice.

We are so excited about this kid, but we also know that it means we may have to keep or take a job that goes south, to keep the insurance and paychecks coming, but that's life. PJ is right, a job is just a job, your family is your life. I feel pretty lucky to have a nice balance right now!

I have a very satisfying job, and I am a parent.

I think people should do everything they do to satisfaction.

Anyone who thinks that child rearing is the easy path to personal satisfaction for those without a fulfilling career are probably not parents.

On 2005-07-26 15:04, BarkerBird wrote:

Anyone who thinks that child rearing is the easy path to personal satisfaction for those without a fulfilling career are probably not parents.

they've also not been 9 months pregnant in July... :)

zpg... zero population growth... http://www.populationconnection.org/index.html

then again, you can never love your children too much!

I like kids, but I can't stand kids that misbehave (who can?), and the parents that either don't know what to do about their kids behavior or who are just plain stupid.

I can see the point of the argument about unsatisfying careers and kids. Let's face it if you have a job that sucks, you need something to look forward to when you get home, that is if you like your kids. Personally I have mixed feelings about it all. I feel like I'm still a kid myself at 39, and I like the freedom I have. I still hang out and party with the same people I did almost 20 years ago. But I agree with cynfulcynner, kids are great for the 'independently wealthy'. It's a huge liability and one that I can't take on now, nor do I see it really happening in the near future. I think I would be a good parent, and not to get all existential and negative, but why exactly do people have children? For themselves, or because they think the child they would have would enjoy being on this planet? I'm getting up there in age now and I feel that if I do it, I should probably do it soon, but with all the craziness in the world right now I have to question why the hell would I want to bring a child into it? So that child has to deal with all of the same craziness, and perhaps more in the future?

On 2005-07-26 15:21, alohabros wrote:
zpg... zero population growth...

Don't you wish your parents were as insightful as you?

DonHoNYC,

To ask why have children is to me, a little bit like asking "why fall in love?"

For yourself? Because you want someone to share all your life with you?

And if you don't fall in love, you have all this freedom. Go anywhere, do anything, no strings to tie you down.

Because to me, that's what parenting is like. It's like falling in love. Hard work. And you'll never see the end of that hard work. But at the same time, I have two great loves of my life, where I had only one before!

If you can get through life scott-free, with the minimal number of connections to others, with the least strings and commitments to those who require your time and devotion, so much for you. Maybe that's a good way to be in a crazy world.

As far as bringing a child into a crazy world, well, please point me to the epoch in history when there wasn't crazyness and it was a good time to have kids. It probably lasted only 20 or so years, and those kids grew up and had to clean up the problems of the world. My parents had me during vietnam. Their parents had them during WWII.

But I have to say, I really didn't understand any of that truely until I became a father. I enjoyed my relatively carefree years too, very much. But I enjoy my life now as well, and I absolutely wouldn't change it.

It's something to think about.

You know if the point of that radio guy was "Sucky job? HAVE A KID!", I can't say I agree with that rationale.

oft times, folks have children for all the wrong reasons, and then there are those who step up and do a world of good by raising smart, affectionate, compassionate and down right wonderful children...

we're having a kid so we can get the lawn mowed for free...

oh yeah, and so we can board the airplane first...

Isn't that why everyone has them :wink:

our child will never misbehave either...

and you'll never say "no" to your child...

I think most people have children because they've had unprotected sex. :wink: Most people don't go into parenting with a game plan or a mission statement, they have children because it was in the cards they were dealt. The majority of new parents realize from the first moment they hold that defenseless, oddly alien looking newborn in their arms that nothing else matters. The world may be in the shit-can but being a parent gives you a vision for the future. No parent wants their child to grow up in a world that's in shambles but you firmly believe that if you instill good morals and ethics in your children, they will have the know-how and ability to create and inhabit a better world then the one they inherited from you. The goals I've set for my children are simple... live long, healthy and happy lives because in the long run it's all that counts!

Monkeyman wrote about a talkshow hosts opinion that having children is a great thing to do if you have an unsatisfying career...

I know you all know what they say about opinions and assholes...

On 2005-07-26 16:01, alohabros wrote:
oft times, folks have children for all the wrong reasons,

There have always been idiot assed people bumbling through life with no thought given to where they are or where they're going.
Lucky for me, right or wrong they were given the right to reproduce.
I remember being pregnant and being at a mall with my husband. He was watching some idiot assed people, like I mentioned earlier, with their idiot assed kids (who will more likely grow up and have their own little batch of idiot assed kids and so on and so on) he was sooo terrified that would be us one day.
Welp you know what, it is. We were idiots asses before we had a child. And having kids certainly wasn't going to change that.
Who do you know that is perfectly perfect 100 percent of the time?
I mean, well behaved, smart, good, well mannered, those words all have their own different meanings to everyone anyway.
How can people be consistent 100 percent of the time?
I know I can't.
And I won't buy into the hype and lies that you have to be perfectly adjusted to raise a great kid. How boring is that?
I know I can't even be an idiot ass 100 percent of the time. Well, ok maybe I can...
I just know our boy is perfect...for us.
A smart, a fairly independent, strong, funny, wise ass that wont let anyone get away with anything, who pushes the envelope daily (thank goodness).
And no he isn't related to Bong :wink:
Granted I didn't LOVE my job, I certainly didn't see it as a sacrifice to walk away from it to be able to spend my days raising my son.
I find it interesting when I tell people I'm a stay at home mom I don't get a very positive response. It seems like people just don't know how to respond to it. It's curious...
I totally understand why there are people who have made the decision that kids aren't for them, for important reasons as their personal independence, freedom and or careers, all of those reasons in themselves are valid reasons not to have children, pets or a spouse (not in that order) :P if they so choose.
But for me personally, it's just beyond my relm of reasoning to be able to think of any job being more personally satisfying than my family.

[ Edited by: DawnTiki 2005-07-26 17:22 ]

Does Mr. Smiley have an unsatisfying career? What would his answer be if he lived in Europe? What is his answer in America?
Why do lizards do pushups?
Will Hanford's children know his real name?

Good question .... made me think! I do a lot of pre-marital counseling - and ALL of the couples (BTW - I am still holding the 100% mark - every couple I have joined in Holy Matrimony is still married - going on 12-years and 20 couples now!) that I have counseled have said they definitely wanted kids, - sometimes it seemed like having kids would be the biggest mistake I could imagine, to be honest...as an outsider looking in. Some of those couples have been so "blessed" - and some have not. There seems to be no "happiness factor" for either set of couples due to having or not having children. As for me and my wife - we wanted NO KIDS - ever - no how, no way!!! And it's not that we don't love OTHER PEOPLE'S KIDS!! We do - and we especially love that they go home with their own mom and dad!! But both of us truly love our callings (she's a CPA and a noted local equestrian) - and - we are passionate about what we do "for a living". Kids....well, they just would not fit the program. Besides - PK's (Pastor's Kids) always end up all screwed up!

PapeToaTane
[email protected]
"The deepest circle of hell is reserved for betrayers and mutineers." Captain Jack Sparrow

[ Edited by: PapeToaTane 2005-07-26 17:53 ]

As far as bringing a child into a crazy world, well, please point me to the epoch in history when there wasn't crazyness and it was a good time to have kids. It probably lasted only 20 or so years, and those kids grew up and had to clean up the problems of the world. My parents had me during vietnam. Their parents had them during WWII.

Same here. My parents were born at that time and I was born during Vietnam (the 60s were a cool time to be born). And I agree, when was the world not crazy? Unfortunately, in my opinion, the craziness of the world now is alot more immediate than it was in the 40s, 50s, and 60s. Maybe I listen to too much talk radio...I don't know.

I'm not challenging anybody on why they had their kids. To each his or her own. And I know that this is going to fall into the 'old crank' category, but another issue I have personally with having kids in our world today is that their is TOO MUCH STUFF available to and for kids. Alot of it is designed and manufactured for them, alot of it isn't. For example I think if I had kids I would get rid of my TV, or at least try to make a damn good effort to get rid of it. I'm not that big a TV watcher anyway. I would not want my kid in front of a TV for the first two years of their life, and later on I would only allow it at a minimum. But I know what you're saying 'easier said than done'.All of us 30-something people grew up with TV, no doubt. But now it's cable and DVDs and all this other garbage. I have seen too many examples in my own family of parents 'babysitting' or shutting-up their kids with television, on demand television that is. It 's a short term solution, and with these particular kids in my family, they get worse, not better. More whining, more back-talk, more calling their parents names, the works. It's not like when we were kids and Sesame Street came on at 4 o'clock or whatever and you watched and that was it. Now it's like 'the kids are bored, let's pop in a Care Bears video and shut them up". How do you walk the line of not exposing your kids to things that alot of other kids have and not have them be some outcast when they start in grade school when all the other kids know who 'Dora' is and yours don't.

On 2005-07-26 16:01, alohabros wrote:
... and then there are those who step up and do a world of good by raising smart, affectionate, compassionate and down right wonderful children...

Thank you AlohaB,

I didn't even know you knew my folks...

Ua ku'u lei au!

(Bong Jr)

bong, not too shabby, give thanks!

On 2005-07-26 15:44, Tiki_Bong wrote:

On 2005-07-26 15:21, alohabros wrote:
zpg... zero population growth...

Don't you wish your parents were as insightful as you?

Yes.... Actually. I could elaborate, but TC doesn't have the bandwidth to tell the story.

But since they didn't, I count myself extremely lucky to have fallen for a woman who wants ABSOLUTLEY NOTHING to do with the idea of having children.

I love that woman.

Oh and If you've had kids and they are well centered well behaved individuals, CONGRATULATIONS! And thank you.

I've noticed that the people screaming about how we have to "protect the children" with governmental legislation from various and sundry things are the same people who have unruly brats.

The secret to raising responsible children is this: empathy + structure.

If they cross a boundry, employ empathy with them in order to have them accept the structure that you will set.

If you do not set structure for your children, they will hate you.

Accept this as truth.

To get back to the original question about careers and kids. In my opinion, if you find yourself wholly engrossed in your job - thats great - for you. You shouldn't come down on other people because they have something more "personally" satisfying in their lives. I love my career (graphic designer and illustrator), but its only a way for me to afford my life(2 kids and a wife). My mantra has always been: I work to live - not live to work.

As far as kids go - there are no perfect kids. I know that I wasn't! But in an inperfect world isn't perfection being inperfect?

Keep in mind that I did not claim to agree or disagree with what the talk show host said.

I am parent or 2. I have a job I am GOOD at but not really passionate about. I could see how his comment fit my situation.

The opinions of this group are interesting to me because we span a wide range of choices.

• People with kids who had them by accident
• People with kids who had them on purpose
• People who dont have kids because they are unable.
• People who dont have kids because they like their life exactly as it is
• People who dont want kids because they dont like kids (not sure how thats possible since we were ALL kids at one point in our life)

My interest was in the correlation between heavier reliance on the satisfaction of raising children in the absense of having a job you absolutely love.

Opinions may be like assholes but without them there is no real discussion.

MM my "opinions and a$$holes" comment was geared toward the talk show hosts lame idea that having children might be a good idea as a filler for people who find themselves unsatisfied with their jobs.
Now honestly, isn't that one of the silliest reasons to procreate you have ever heard of?
I would think if a person isn't satisfied with their job situation and they don't have the responsibilities of a family, they are in "THE" ideal situation to make some changes in their life so they can be happier in a career that is more to their liking or better suited for them.
Weather that means going back to school, or starting at the bottom in a career they are truly interested and passionate about.
Again this sort of fits into what I was trying to say (somewhat sarcastically) before about the bumbling dolts that have kids everyday, with no real thought or plan as to why they did it and no idea on how they are going to do it.
Kids should never be considered as some distraction from a bad job that will automatically make your life a happier, better place to be.
That is just beyond ridiculous.
People who truly want a child should be the ONLY people raising children.
I say, if you find yourself unhappy with anyone, anywhere over anything at anytime, the obvious answers is... spend more time on Tiki Central :wink:

[ Edited by: DawnTiki 2005-07-27 11:04 ]

What I can't figure out is how some people manage to have one idiot assed kid and one kid that's not. My sister is a psychotic little mutant who still (and she's 12 years old) bites you if you ask her to do something she doesn't want to do - such as put her socks in the laundry, wash her hair, or feed her guinea pig.

Myself, I've got really good grades for years, got accepted into a great college, and with any luck, will spend a semester in New Zealand in the Study Abroad program.

Go figure.

spend more time with your sister...

Being a Father IS my career. 24/7. Two boys, 3 1/2 and 10 months. I have my various interests that I'm fortunate enough to make money from, but being DAD is my job. No Grandparents, no Aunts or Uncles to help, just my wife and myself. It's without a doubt the hardest job I've ever had(and I've had lots of jobs), and quite often there are no thanks. It's very, very hard, but there are those moments that do make it worth every minute of the screaming, and the tantrums, and the non-stop questioning, and the poop. I will say, though, that I'm definately not a career-oriented(yuck!!) person, and I wouldn't give this up for the world. It's the perfect level of chaos for me. Plus, being adopted, these boys are the only blood I have in my life, and I will do anything to ensure their safety, and do my best to raise them into strong, compassionate men. That's paramount.

love your kids, teach 'em to surf...

On 2005-07-28 11:45, SwampCreature wrote:
... there are those moments that do make it worth every minute of the screaming, and the tantrums, and the non-stop questioning, and the poop.

Not to mention what the kids might do...

Swampcreature,it's refreshing to hear a fella say how hard it is to stay home with children.I bet if you're lucky,you get to have a shower before dinnertime.

Wow! Religon and politics are taboo but this can of worms is AOK?!?!

On 2005-07-28 17:29, saxotica wrote:
Wow! Religon and politics are taboo but this can of worms is AOK?!?!

Good point sax,

I was telling RipTide just today that soon Hanford will ban religion, politics, and procreation...

(but, kids are freakin' great!)

On 2005-07-26 14:08, dangergirl299 wrote:

Ok, my rant THIS week is:

My sister had surgery last night for an ectopic pregnancy (it was growing in the tube; they had to remove it).

I think, on balance, at the end of your life it's not going to matter how big your collection of stuff is, whether you have wrinkles, that you don't weigh as little as you did in high school, that you don't eat as many fresh veggies as you should, that you watch more tv than you think you should, that your boss is insane, that people have been mean to you, what kind of car you drive, what house you live in, who cut you off on the freeway. I think what matters is that you are good and loving to the people who are important: your family, your spouse, your children, your close friends.

A job is a way to pay for life, I think Dangergirl says it all here. Without my Children, there would be no reason to work and without my Children, I would have no life, but it took almost losing my oldest daughter to realize that. I left my career of 18 years, work from the home and have never been happier. (funny thing, because of the happy thing I make twice what I did before)

Without my work, I'd have no life ( that I could pay for ).
Sure I'd have my shopping cart, and my cardboard bed. But I doubt that my wife, as understanding as she is, would want to be put through that. Nor do I think I should put her through that.

And without my wife, I'd really have a crappy life.

But I am still hoping that she gets recognized for her clothing design talents, and becomes so successful that I can have a life, but not a job.

Barring that...C'MON LOTTERY!!!

I know people who've had kids that almost get livid when I don't jump up and down with glee over their latest story about their child and how great being a parent is. I have to tell them that if it is great and makes them happy, well hey, thats good that it makes them happy.

But I can't identify with the emotion they are trying to convey.

But if it makes ya happy, cool.

NOT HAVING KIDS IS GREAT!

Having the most open and honest relationship with a woman who is intelligent, talented, and beautiful inside and out, well that makes my day.

And my work is there to pay the bills. And pay for a domicile that frames her lovely visage. That makes the work thing bearable and worthwhile.

On 2005-07-28 22:30, TikiGardener wrote:

Having the most open and honest relationship with a woman who is intelligent, talented, and beautiful inside and out, well that makes my day.

At first I thought you were talking about MY wife...
Ditto for my wife as well.

Having the most open and honest relationship with a woman who is intelligent, talented, and beautiful inside and out, well that makes my day.

So you're the one who's been following my girlfriend around?

The weird and freaky reality is, the main reason we have children is because we are biologically programmed to in our genes. But because we are human we like to add all sorts of interesing altruistic notions to this basic biological fact to try and fool ourselves that we are not just mammals like the rest of them!

Eee-ee-ee

Off to eat a banana

On 2005-07-28 22:30, TikiGardener wrote:
And my work is there to pay the bills. And pay for a domicile that frames her lovely visage.

TG you gotta be kidding! You say you can't identify with people being proud of their children, which I can understand, but then you go and make a Hallmark card-esque comment like that about your wife? Are we supposed to aww and say 'how sweet' or are you trying to make us puke? If that's the relationship you're in and the love you share is so fulfilling and beautiful I'm happy that it makes you happy but you don't know what love for a woman truly is until you've witnessed her endure nine months of misery and hours of excruciating pain to bring new life into the world. Not just any new life but a life that your love has created. I may not stand up and proclaim to the world, "I love this woman!" like that annoying diamond commercial on TV but whenever I see her traits or resemblance in our children the love I have is immeasurable and unspoken!

Quite the opposite. One of the reason I find her to be perfect is the fact that she doesn't get the whole need to breed thing either. I get all the satisfaction I need from her. Sappy? SURE! True? Yup!

I have no desire to watch the nine months thing take its toll on her.

For some people having a kid is the ultimate. But not for us. Just as body modification is for some people. But I don't get that either. If it floats yer boat, great.

But we have encountered the usual counter points of;
A) We must be crazy not to want to have kids.
B) We're Just being selfish. ( this one I find particularly offensive )
C)"But you'd make such great parents". Glad to know it, but thats not a strong enough argument for me to subvert who I am. I won't live my life to appease other peoples desires.
D) "You can't truly be happy unless you have children, you're lying to yourself."

I loved it when my wife came home from going to Disneyland. Her friend had lugged her baby around all day.
First words out of my wife's mouth; "NO WAY IN HELL!"

And you question my reasoning! Well maybe you don't question it that harshly, but damn if I didn't know I had met the right woman those 15 years ago.

And I hate diamond commercials.

AND if having an unsatisfying careers is the reason ( as proposed bay said DJ ) people have kids... I should have about 20 by now. I push crates around all day and deal with people who slack off to pad their day and avoid work. I load air sea containers in 100 degree weather. I have a boss whos reasoning faculties are compromised and who has all the spine of a slinky. I deal with truckers who feel no compunction about voicing their opinions about anyone who isn't white or a member of a hate group. My job gave me smashed toe which has changed my stride enough that my toe on the other foots is getting a bone spur on it which makes life after a long day on my feet unbearable. The sensation I get when I go into work could be summed up by quoting Marvin The Paranoid Android;" Oh great....Mind Taxing time again...."

So I'd say the DJ's reasoning is off the mark.