First post let me post some quotes that were on the thread about The Islands Restaurant:

On 2006-11-07 09:34, bigbrotiki wrote:
OUUUCH! That hurts deeply. So much for cold hard reality.

Tiki history? Book of Tiki? Tiki revival? Who? What?

[ Edited by: bigbrotiki 2006-11-07 09:37 ]

On 2006-11-07 15:48, Jeff Central wrote:

The Kahiki was on the National List of Historic Places but needed to be on the Local List in order to be saved. The Kahiki was NEVER closed until the Bon Voyage Kahiki party on August 26, 2000. Up until then it was open every day. Michael Tsao wanted to sell and Walgreens was ready to buy. End of story. It did need plumbing repair (especially to the basement) but the place was still fully operational. It all comes down to MONEY.

On 2006-11-13 11:00, kick_the_reverb wrote:
We can be furious all we want, won't help, just goes to show that we need to see everything that's available now, because we can never know if it'll be there in the future.

On 2006-11-13 17:49, tikipedia wrote:
This royaly sucks!!!! We lose the Royal Hawaiian, then Sam's Seafood, and now the Hanalei. And all within a several month timeframe.

We could have only hoped that Tiki Oasis showed the suits that Tiki is worthy. But the Jimmy Buffettization of 'tropical' decor continues to march along it's destructive and non-descript way.

What would be cool is if the decor from the Hanalei goes to restore the Bali Hai. But I doubt The Man would allow that.

Once again (and pardon my language), CRAP!!!!!!!

On 2006-11-13 19:19, Matt Reese wrote:
This whole thing is killing me. How do we stop it?
Maybe we'll see more places like Forbidden Island start popping up and take the helm. Just such a pisser.....damn!

Sorry about the re-post everyone it's just that I really don't need to keep writing the same thing over and over!
I'm hoping that under this new thread it might finally start getting people's attention and participation instead of everyone just complaining about the loses of all our Tiki History and feeling helpless to do anything!

On 2006-11-07 11:44, Dr.TikiMojo wrote:
This sort of thing REALLY upsets Mrs.Mojo and myself! :x

We both belong to the National Trust for Historic Preservation http://www.nationaltrust.org/
since we own a historically registered 1895 Queen Anne Victorian home and live in a registered historic district.

I suggest that all of you who have posted here, are passionate about our "historic" Tiki venues, go to the above link and join. Then as a group we can start to point out the historic relevance of these Hotels, Restaurants and Bars and start getting "Government" protection of these important and Beautiful locations!

We both felt SICK when very recently we read the post about Portland's Jasmine Tree Restaurant closing down in less than 6 weeks after our visit. We had spent hours there dining, drinking, hanging out and taking photos and we heard nothing about this future closure.

The biggest problems with trying to protect ANY site even with the backing of our local and government agencies are these:

Fighting BIG corporations with LOTS of money -when the Hotel/Bar/Restaurant is owned now by a larger "corporate" entity they seldom care about "historic" issues ONLY PROFITS...they also can afford the lawyers and the pay offs to make the changes regardless.

Knowing about a change or closure BEFORE it happens! Once the permits are issued, workers hired and plans made it is pretty difficult to get in on time to stop this devistation...unless of course you want to play the roll of TIKI ACTIVIST and chain yourself to a Tiki somewhere to halt workers and get enough media attention to increase public awareness!

Lastly: defining WHAT is historic?
While we here at TC love all of these places, are they OLD ENOUGH, HISTORICALLY RELEVANT ENOUGH to warrant local and government agencies, not to mention the local public, to step in and do something to save and preserve these as Landmarks?

We watch this in our own neighborhood everyday! One very old and beautiful building gets demolished to put in new generic, stucco crap while another seemingly uninteresting old building or location is preserved and not allowed to be used for the better because it IS defined as Historic! It can be and does become a "double edged sword"!

Again I say, especially today voting day, if you want to stop these losses go to http://www.nationaltrust.org/ and join and start making Tiki Locations be seen as something TO BE PRESERVED!! Or find any other State or local organization you can join to raise awareness before ALL our Original treasured Tiki locations become another generic, mass marketed, corporate owned company or disappear all together!

On 2006-11-07 11:44, Dr.TikiMojo wrote:
We both felt SICK when very recently we read the post about Portland's Jasmine Tree Restaurant closing down in less than 6 weeks after our visit. We had spent hours there dining, drinking, hanging out and taking photos and we heard nothing about this future closure.

All of this is now gone forever! The only glimmer of light on this Historical Tiki loss was that the new bar in Portland "THATCH" has acquired nearly everything so that you can still see these pieces of Tiki History in a new location....thank you Robert for that!

I've spent my ENTIRE DAY today collecting and organizing this information and creating this thread so I REALLY hope that everyone who is serious about supporting and SAVING their TIKI HISTORY actually follow some of the links, buy a book or two, join your city council, write a congressman ANYTHING just don't be passive about it!

There are books out there to learn more, websites and organizations but YOU HAVE TO GET INVOLVED!
Otherwise you can expect to see our Tiki History continue to slowly disappear and fade away until all there is are photographs and memories!

This is the organization my wife and I have been members of for 3 years:

http://www.nationaltrust.org/

Here is their mission statement:
The National Trust champions preservation by providing leadership, education, advocacy, and resources to people working to preserve, improve, and enjoy the places that matter to them.

Doesn't that sound like what we're all after?

This is their link to contact your elected representatives in Congress and the State Legislatures:
by visiting http://www.congress.org/congressorg/home/, your on-line connection to your elected representatives in Congress and the State Legislatures. This web site will allow you to express your support for preservation policy initiatives and developments that affect your community when needed.

Here are more sites that may help us:

How to Save Historic Properties and Landmarks http://www.ehow.com/how_135724_save-historic-properties.html

http://www.SaveAmericasTreasures.org

The Advisory Council on Historic Preservation http://www.achp.gov/

http://www.preservationdirectory.com/HistoricalPreservation/Home.aspx the online resource for historic preservation, building restoration and cultural resource management in the United States & Canada.

The Federal Historic Preservation Tax Incentives program is one of the nation's most successful and cost-effective community revitalization programs. http://www.cr.nps.gov/hps/TPS/tax/

In California - Office of Historic Preservation http://ohp.parks.ca.gov/

There are agencies like this for nearly every US State and many local and city governments!

But you must be ACTIVE! Be aware and involved! MAKE YOUR VOICE HEARD OR STOP YOUR BITCHIN'! Tiki is still a very small community on the large scale picture of things. Not too likely most politicians, state or local, have ever even heard of it or know why we care if another site is demolished for a new Walmart. Join any historical/preservation/local government group you can and
FIGHT FOR YOUR RIGHT TO TIKI! :tiki:

Glad to see that you brought this back up to the top of the page. I did some investigating today about preservation and went to both of the sites you gave links for. We need to start a campaign of nominating the remaining locations. start with a list, then categorize them by state, then write and submit the nominations.
There are criteria for nominating, but as I pointed out today the mai kai is about to turn 50 which makes it eligible. I emailed them this afternoon about being nominated , stll waiting to hear.
Also poised to start a non profit which is how we start our own historical society, giving Tiki more credibility to be saved. I want to talk to a few key people before actually filing the non profit paperwork, but basically any day now, or as soon as I have a couple hundred extra $
Dawn

This is another VERY IMPORTANT thread to preserving our Tiki History:

polynesia americana museum of polynesian pop

http://www.tikicentral.com/viewtopic.php?topic=21353&forum=1&start=0

Please read the thread and do what you can to support the idea of our first ever museum of polynesian pop!

This would be one more step in creating public awareness of the importance of our Tiki Culture!

On 2006-11-14 09:14, Sophista-tiki wrote:
Bula Bula everyone,
I have been hours and hours on line researching organizations, societies, etc that may apply to Polynesia Americana. I have contacted several people who could give me advise and direction. Including the curators of the SF airport poly pop exhibit.
Still waiting for reply. I checked out the Historical preservation angle that would be instrumental in saving "tiki" establishments. According to the National Historic Preservation Act of 1966, any building or site can be nominated for the list. Nominations are on a State by State basis. one of the qualifications is that a building needs to be at least 50yrs old.

well, I just read in an email from Otto that the Mai Kai is about to celebrate its 5oth birthday, I know how you all love the Mai Kai, so someone in Florida needs to nominate it for the historical registry.
Dr Tiki Mojo provided me with the link to the information about nominating a site.
I would be happy to help write the nomination if some devoted tiki fan from Florida wants to PM me to get started and be responsible for submitting the nomination. As Dr.TikiMojo pointed out he has tried several times in various threads to light a fire under your butts about conservation of "Historically Tiki" sites... so lets just do it. I have the email for the Mai Kai and I will be making an inquiry to them today about this matter. There are so many other things Ive been looking into,
I have been in contact with the Smithsonian about starting up a museum, and classification of poly pop.
of course, I need to spend some time trying to make money to have the time to do this research. (Plug for my tiki Christmas stockings) any purchase of my art or products would help me to have more time to spend working on the museum.
As soon as I hear from some of the people I have contacted I'll update, there may be exciting news just around the corner.
Next I am going to pursue the question of what makes an Historical society, how do we get official recognition, what are the qualifcations.
Later on, Dawn

Also of help in the setting up of a non-profit preservation organization would be the Los Angeles Conservancy and it's Post-War sub-committee, the Modern Committee. Any of the people on this page can probably be of help. The commercial chair is a personal friend of Sven's, by the way.

It would be great to see the Mai-Kai get a historic designation. Let us know what you hear back on that and what is needed next. Also, the Tiki Ti (although much smaller) has been around for 45 years already.

Thank you for this thread. Finally something that may actually have the ability to stop some of these ridiculous "renovations". Greatly appreciated.
Cheers.
Matt

Here's one thing that I don't understand because I just don't know much about the subject. These places that we all want to preserve are businesses. Not Lincoln's log cabin, but operating businesses. Let's say we get the Mai-Kai on national and local preservation lists. What happens if some years from now the Thornton family decides that it is no longer a viable operation and closes the doors. Are they not allowed to sell to a developer because it's protected? What becomes of the Mai-Kai? Turn it into a museum? The Thornton's have run the Mai-Kai lovingly for decades. I would hate to think that if they wanted to pack it in that they would not be able to sell and reap the financial rewards, as much as I want the Mai-Kai to be saved. Perhaps for these reasons, the Thorntons may not want the Mai-Kai to be protected. These are serious questions that I ask simply because I don't understand the implications of government protection for a building owned by a business.

The biggest part in "saving" your local business is by becoming a regular patron and spreading the news of the wonderful place. That is the first step into preserving local landmarks. Being a regular customer and always telling friends and family is probably the most crucial promotions you can do for an establishment. Now before anyone pops up and asks "Define being a regular customer"...Well that is up to you, based on your income, time and such...If these places are possibly teetering on the map for demolition, you can find a way to support. All the above knowledge is wonderful in preservation and for trying to make a historical landmark, but supporting the business at hand while they are open is the first step. No patrons=no business= ultimately closure, So don't wait until the rumors start flying around that its going to close and then want to do something about it. Prevention can equal Preservation. I like Tikimojo, am tired of seeing posts like "Trader Vics closing???" and then seeing replies like "Ahh what a bummer we are going to lose another historical tiki establishment". I'd rather see posts like "I eat at Trader Vics twice a month or more". Even if you "cannot" eat there twice a month or more, you get the picture. Support the remaining businesses by making time to do so...If everybody felt like this and did the same, I highly doubt this topic would even be brought up..(unless the property was leased,which is a whole different ballgame.)

Although federal or state historic preservation status cannot prevent the owner of a business from remodeling, or selling to a developer who plans to gut a property or tear it down, it can provide assistance to preservation in the form of low interest loans, tax incentives, or other ways. It also brings recognition, press, and customers to the business. Sadly, in the case of the Kahiki it was probably too little, too late.

Local historic preservation ordinances often can be more strict than federal or state ones. For example, in Palm Springs about 5 years ago a developer from New Jersey bought a historic mid-century house with promises to the sellers that he would preserve it and then promptly tore it down during the nighttime. The city was outraged and the action really brought media attention to preservation of mid-century landmarks. Now the city has a much stronger preservation focus. So, it would be a good idea to investigate what local HP ordinances are in place in the city where a particular tiki bar is.

Call me skeptical, but I don't think the average person considers tiki bars (and most stuff post WWII) to be worthy of historic landmark status or preservation. Unfortunately, most people don't appreciate what they got until it's gone. That doesn't mean I think that people shouldn't try to help in any way they can, and all of Dr. Tiki Mojo's suggestions are great, but I still think that the best way to really save these places is by spending your money there.

There is a little hope. I recently read in lottaliving forums about a googie diner in L.A. that closed and became a googie-style Starbucks that actually looks pretty cool. That's better than nothing. L.A. is one of the few cities that has a large community of mid-century preservationists. Unlike in the Bay Area, where Historic Preservation groups have very little interest in preserving anything that came after Art Deco and Streamline Moderne.

As James Brown said: "Get involved!"

[ Edited by: thejab 2006-11-15 12:13 ]

On 2006-11-15 09:53, GatorRob wrote:
Here's one thing that I don't understand because I just don't know much about the subject. These places that we all want to preserve are businesses. Not Lincoln's log cabin, but operating businesses. Let's say we get the Mai-Kai on national and local preservation lists. What happens if some years from now the Thornton family decides that it is no longer a viable operation and closes the doors. Are they not allowed to sell to a developer because it's protected? What becomes of the Mai-Kai? Turn it into a museum? The Thornton's have run the Mai-Kai lovingly for decades. I would hate to think that if they wanted to pack it in that they would not be able to sell and reap the financial rewards, as much as I want the Mai-Kai to be saved. Perhaps for these reasons, the Thorntons may not want the Mai-Kai to be protected. These are serious questions that I ask simply because I don't understand the implications of government protection for a building owned by a business.

GREAT questions guys!

I will continue to answer all questions that I can! :D To GatorRob's heartfelt question: Remember I mentioned above the, "double edged sword"?
Here's what that means, Anyone can sell a Historical Landmark/Registered property but it may limit the number of buyers because the new owner CAN'T CHANGE IT OR TEAR IT DOWN TO BUILD ANOTHER WALGREENS/WALMART!
The Jasmine Tree could still have been sold but the City of Portland would not be allowed to tear it down to extend their light rail system.
While the Thornton's own it there are tax breaks for them, (Federal Historic Preservation Tax Incentives program is one of the nation's most successful and cost-effective community revitalization programs. http://www.cr.nps.gov/hps/TPS/tax/ ).

How this effects OUR property we have to get a permit of HISTORICAL APPROPRIATENESS before we are allowed to make any changes to our building. Which is a pain in the ass sometimes but it does insure that the neighborhood keeps it's historical look. This means, (for US and ONLY within our city and codes), that for anything that can be seen from the street we can not use concrete, (unless faced with a natural looking stone surface), no chain link fences, no metal siding, no vinyl or metal window frames and so on.
Does this mean that our property values don't increase?
On the contrary, we have DOUBLE our investment in only 3 years!

Yes, there are some inconveniences to being Historically Registered, (on the flip side it may likely even INCREASE THEIR BUSINESS since many places are listed online as places of interest to visit). Also if you try to look at it as the Thornton's "Buddy or Friend", and we all have made friends with the owners of a Tiki location somewhere, then no one is going to register any properties, they will continue to be changed and demolished and in another 20 years there will be only the Tiki chains popping up like Hard Rock Cafes and Tiki Central will be called "TIKI MEMORIES".

I'm offering everyone the knowledge and ideas on what YOU can do as an individual to help protect our Tiki treasures for the future. What you do with that knowledge is up to you!
Otherwise pray that the Poly Pop Museum becomes a reality because that's where we'll all be going to see any of favorite Tiki Locations! :cry:

On 2006-11-15 10:33, Tom Slick wrote:
The biggest part in "saving" your local business is by becoming a regular patron and spreading the news of the wonderful place. That is the first step into preserving local landmarks. Being a regular customer and always telling friends and family is probably the most crucial promotions you can do for an establishment.

...If everybody felt like this and did the same, I highly doubt this topic would even be brought up..(unless the property was leased,which is a whole different ballgame.)

Thank you Tom,

I need to point out that that is a misconception!
A LOT MORE needs to be done other than patronizing a restaurant or bar to keep it open. My wife and I have family in the restaurant industry and speak from experience. People lose interest, (it's a lot of work), rents/leases increase, in the case of The Jasmine Tree, (besides the City's interest), the owner had a stroke and his wife didn't want to run it.
Do you think that there were not enough people going to the Red Lion Hanalei Hotel in San Diego and The Islands Restaurant - Now home to TIKI OSASIS?
Did an entire Tiki Convention save the Hotel/Restaurant from change?
No!
Do you know how many times they've already changed the front of the building, the name, etc.?
Registering a location as a Historical Landmark HELPS to prevent these changes - REGARDLESS OF WHO OWNS IT.

Why is anyone making excuses?
If you love Tiki, want to preserve it for your enjoyment in the future and children's future then get on it! No one is asking you for money or volunteer time, besides the time it takes to be active about doing something to save these locations or a small membership fee, (less than the cost of a collectable Tiki Mug), to join an association to help preserve our future!

On 2006-11-15 10:33, Tom Slick wrote:
The biggest part in "saving" your local business is by becoming a regular patron and spreading the news of the wonderful place.

While I'm all in favor of supporting your local tiki bar, keep in mind that most of us don't have a local tiki bar to support. The Mai-Kai is 4 hrs away from me. I'm good to get there a few times a year. Call me a pessimist, but unless we all lived in the same city, I don't believe any level of patronage TC members can give to a particular establishment could keep it from going under if it was already on the brink. There simply aren't enough of us. We barely make a dent in their bottom line I suspect. I would think the only thing that can save a business from going under is the business itself. That's why tiki bars play hip-hop music. If they can't get the general public (not just us) through the doors, they're toast.

Dr. TikiMojo, I hear ya, and I'm totally in agreement with you with regards to saving historic places. Really I am. But I'm still very doubtful that it's in the best financial interests of the business owners, especially when the time comes to sell. If the Thorntons couldn't find a buyer for the Mai-Kai property because it was protected, we'd all be happy that the Mai-Kai property was saved. But would we all feel so good about it if the Thorntons went bankrupt as a result? I'm playing devil's advocate here. Asking the hard questions.

In California, here are the guidelines for historic landmark listing. The Hanalei certainly didn't qualify.

Criteria for Designation
To be eligible for designation as a Landmark, a resource must meet at least one of the following criteria:

The first, last, only, or most significant of its type in the state or within a large geographic region (Northern, Central, or Southern California).

Associated with an individual or group having a profound influence on the history of California.

A prototype of, or an outstanding example of, a period, style, architectural movement or construction or is one of the more notable works or the best surviving work in a region of a pioneer architect, designer or master builder.

And here are the results of a listing, which doesn't outlaw remodeling or destruction:

Effects of Designation

Limited protection: Environmental review may be required under California Environmental Quality Act (CEQA) if property is threatened by a project. Contact your local planning agency for more information.

Local assessor may enter into contract with property owner for property tax reduction (Mills Act).

Local building inspector must grant code alternative provided under State Historic Building Code. Registration will be recorded on the property deed.

Automatic listing in California Register of Historical Resources.

Bronze plaque at site (underwritten by local sponsor) ordered through OHP; highway directional sign available through local Department of Transportation (Caltrans) district office.

Here are the criteria for Federal Listing. Note that most buildings under 50 do not qualify, but the Kahiki was an exception.

Criteria for Evaluation

The quality of significance in American history, architecture, archeology, engineering, and culture is present in districts, sites, buildings, structures, and objects that possess integrity of location, design, setting, materials, workmanship, feeling, and association, and:

A. That are associated with events that have made a significant contribution to the broad patterns of our history; or

B. That are associated with the lives of persons significant in our past; or

C. That embody the distinctive characteristics of a type, period, or method of construction, or that represent the work of a master, or that possess high artistic values, or that represent a significant and distinguishable entity whose components may lack individual distinction; or

D. That have yielded or may be likely to yield, information important in prehistory or history.

Criteria Considerations

Ordinarily cemeteries, birthplaces, graves of historical figures, properties owned by religious institutions or used for religious purposes, structures that have been moved from their original locations, reconstructed historic buildings, properties primarily commemorative in nature, and properties that have achieved significance within the past 50 years shall not be considered eligible for the National Register. However, such properties will qualify if they are integral parts of districts that do meet the criteria or if they fall within the following categories:

a. A religious property deriving primary significance from architectural or artistic distinction or historical importance; or

b. A building or structure removed from its original location but which is primarily significant for architectural value, or which is the surviving structure most importantly associated with a historic person or event; or

c. A birthplace or grave of a historical figure of outstanding importance if there is no appropriate site or building directly associated with his or her productive life; or

d. A cemetery which derives its primary importance from graves of persons of transcendent importance, from age, from distinctive design features, or from association with historic events; or

e. A reconstructed building when accurately executed in a suitable environment and presented in a dignified manner as part of a restoration master plan, and when no other building or structure with the same association has survived; or

f. A property primarily commemorative in intent if design, age, tradition, or symbolic value has invested it with its own exceptional significance; or

g. A property achieving significance within the past 50 years if it is of exceptional importance.

And the results of Federal Listing (highlighting added):

Listing in the National Register honors a historic place by recognizing its importance to its community, State or the Nation. Under Federal law, owners of private property listed in the National Register are free to maintain, manage, or dispose of their property as they choose provided that there is no Federal involvement. Owners have no obligation to open their properties to the public, to restore them or even to maintain them, if they choose not to do so.

I really don't think that these programs can help stop what happened to the Hanalei, Sam's, and Royal Hawaiian, as they didn't with the Kahiki.

I would support a Mai-Kai listing if the owners wished to see it happen, if only to get them some publicity.

[ Edited by: thejab 2006-11-15 13:07 ]

Re-reading thejab's original post, maybe the thing to go after is federal or state preservation status to get the owners tax incentives, publicity, etc. I would have a hard time supporting much stricter local preservation status if it means bringing financial hardship to those who have owned it for decades.

[ Edited by: GatorRob 2006-11-15 13:05 ]