The Politics of Tiki

Just curious here, and I by no means want to open a floodgate of contentious mudslinging - this forum is like a tiki bar, meaning you check your hostilities at the door. We're all bound here by our common love of a certain aesthetic, but I somtimes wonder - does Tiki in its present incarnation attract more conservatives or liberals? I know that probably depends on what area of the country you hail from (most of my Bay Area cronies naturally lean leftward), but Tiki Culture as we know it was established in a rather conservative era - (much like today). So my question: is the pleasure-seeking, politically incorrect (both fine by me) lifestyle Tiki represents more attractive to the right (because of its adherence to tradition) or the left (because of its beatnik hedonism), or is this a moot point these days? I'd also like feedback on whether you think Tikifiles of yore tended toward either side of the spectrum. Some of you probably don't even want to reveal your political inclinations in this context, fearful of alienating cyber-pals, which I totally respect. I'm just throwing this out there, since it's something different (I hope) to ponder. This isn't a poll, just an informal discussion. And like I said, Tiki is the great unifier anyway, so please, as a socially liberal Tiki lover disenchanted with ALL political parties (except those that serve Mai Tais), please do not be leery of offensing my delicate sensibilities. Even my man Frank Sinatra abandoned the Democrats (which I'm also considering doing, going Indie, if they don't buck up) and went Republican circa 1970 (along with a lot of other former lefties, alienated by the counterculture movement), and I still love him. Though of course, his music pretty much sucked after that, too, but that's another topic...

Aqua Zombie~

Hanford's asked us to stay away from political discussion for a while due to some rather ugly occurrences on past threads.

I hope this doesn't turn into one.

In my experience in this forum, it is a pretty even split between liberal and conservative. (or as you would say in the US, left and right). Though many perceive it to be more left leaning (perhaps because of the inclusion of so many hoity toity california types), when people have asked this same question in the past, it turns out not to be so.

Tiki seems to attract an unusually broad spectrum of people. Which is one of the reasons I think it is so zazz.

AquaZombie,

I understand you're new to the board and you would like to make an impression of some sort, but as posted above, Hanford has asked that we not post topics regarding POLITICS or RELIGION.

Besides, what exactly does ones political views have to do with tiki?

Okay, I'll let it go then. Didn't realize it came up before, since I'm new around here. And it's a discussion perhaps best left to your own personal gatherings of friends. Sorry if I stirred up any negative feelings, which defeat the whole point of Tiki, in my opinion. I was trying to be diplomatic, but I can tell from that odd (the Cal libs I know, and there are plenty around here, are anything BUT "hoity toity"), that there probably isn't any way to discuss this civilly, especially in a room of faceless strangers. I'm leaving it alone now.

On 2003-08-06 12:02, AquaZombie wrote:
(the Cal libs I know, and there are plenty around here, are anything BUT "hoity toity"), that there probably isn't any way to discuss this civilly, especially in a room of faceless strangers

Glad you understand. You should also know that 'hoity toity' is a little joke we run with regarding So Cali TC members, and we are not 'faceless stangers'. We have quite a few very large and professionally staged events throughout the U.S. (and parts of Alabama).

I would have guessed left as well but based on past TC discussions of war and US policy abroad I would say that it is a healty mix.

It has been my perception that political beliefs are often sculpted by economics. Higher wealth often (Not Always) carries with it a more conservative position.

Based on my limited interaction with Tiki Central folks, I don't think that many of us are financially past middle class.

Those of us who would like a more artistic and bohemian lifestyle often do not focus on being rich. Thus is would seem likely that we would be more liberal.

What am I saying???? I am not quite sure.

Good luck with a dangerous thread!

On 2003-08-06 12:07, Monkeyman wrote:
Based on my limited interaction with Tiki Central folks, I don't think that many of us are financially past middle class.

I'm not wealthy but I like to pretend I am.

Hey AZ,
You don't have to worry about me gettin mad. Your post requires too much concentration for my brain cells. :)

tikifish and monkeyman, my observation about popular political discussion offline and online is that liberal people, true to their philosophy, tend not to be interested in political talk for a couple of major reasons. 1) they recognize that the world isn't black and white, it is actually quite complex, and when a person realizes how much they do not know spouting off on huge political topics seems much less attractive, 2) if you're liberal, you want people to do whatever they like so long as it's not hurting you directly, hence you are not easily enraged and self-righteous, hence there is little motivation to host a radio talk show or call into one, or post on the internet.
It's a major problem, and I'm not sure how it can be fixed. Combine that with the fact that conservatives and religious people and the less intelligent are more likely to reproduce, and the future starts to look bleak. Downward biological evolution of course will take just as many millenia as it did going upward, and hey maybe the first nuclear war they cause will result in some fortunate mutations interrupting the trend.

http://deus.org

[ Edited by: kahukini on 2003-08-06 12:49 ]

All politics aside (even though I have wondered about those same questions), One of my favorite things about Tiki and it's culture, is that for me it's more of a mindless escapism. So many folk get their hobbies and pursuits so seriously wrapped up and intertwined with politics, philosophy and religion these days. I take pride in passionately pursuing something that is just too darned silly to ever get that worked up over. No offense to the Tiki Pride Parade marchers.

On 2003-08-06 12:46, kahukini wrote:
tikifish and monkeyman, my observation about popular political discussion offline and online is that liberal people, true to their philosophy, tend not to be interested in political talk for a couple of major reasons. 1) they recognize that the world isn't black and white, it is actually quite complex, and when a person realizes how much they do not know spouting off on huge political topics seems much less attractive, 2) if you're liberal, you want people to do whatever they like so long as it's not hurting you directly, hence you are not easily enraged and self-righteous, hence there is little motivation to host a radio talk show or call into one, or post on the internet.
It's a major problem, and I'm not sure how it can be fixed. Combine that with the fact that conservatives and religious people and the less intelligent are more likely to reproduce, and the future starts to look bleak. Downward biological evolution of course will take just as many millenia as it did going upward, and hey maybe the first nuclear war they cause will result in some fortunate mutations interrupting the trend.

---

http://deus.org

[ Edited by: kahukini on 2003-08-06 12:49 ]

Kahukini,

Man, you are so intelligent! I just love to read your wit and wisdom. I cry when I read your insight because I know I'll never be up to your standards. All the statements you make are the devine truth. I print out everything you write in order to somehow, one day, be able to grasp your understanding of all things (even though I honestly know I never will be able to - just too dumb). I am so suprised you haven't been awarded a Nobel prize for your complete understanding of the human condition. I think you should have a scribe that follows you everywhere, just so mankind has a valuable guide in which to follow. I am so proud of you! Go forth and be our teacher.

PS If liberals have no children because they're so intelligent, why didn't they die out 1,000s of years ago?

'A thing of Tiki is a joy forever'

Celebrate 'International Tiki Day' the second Saturday in August - Hau'oli La Tiki!

[ Edited by: Tiki_Bong on 2003-08-06 13:32 ]

bong,BEHAVE!!!.All I have to say is thank you to the left for SAVING TIKI.If not for the artists and the likes, it might be as dead as dead can be.Love to all, left or right.

Thank you bong. I should hire a full-time assistant of some sort, it is a shame. Maybe I should at least get one of those personal recorders.
I think the luxury of being really liberal, leftist, socialist etc. is a very recent thing in human history. We only in the late 1700's got freedom and equality as ideals instututed in governments, and in the late 20th century just got everyone able to participate in democracy (and just a couple of weeks ago finally allowed everyone in this country to make love however they like), the industrial revolution and now the technological revolution are still very recent, and its taking time for people to realize just how wealthy humanity is thanks to these innovations. The world is a different place now that for the first time allows for realistic futurist thinking. Imagine if you pressed a button to receive food instantly created from energy, and imagine if energy was free, produced by some yet uninvented technology in endless abundance. Imagine if your work consisted of what you wanted to do, and you did it because you wanted to. Imagine if it were this way for everyone. Human beings should not be defined by economics, but conservatives see the world as money flowing. More money good, less money bad. And we are all forced to live in this world. Money has nothing to do with being human. There will be a day (not in our lifetimes) when technology will be able to take care of people's basic needs. Then humankind will finally reach its potential, with a world full of people with time to develop their minds, to build amazing relationships with endless time, and to create what their unique experiences and talents allow them to create.

http://deus.org

[ Edited by: kahukini on 2003-08-06 13:52 ]

Boy, aren't we glad that Kahukini didn't discuss politics?

Seriously... that was one of the least logical arguements I have ever heard about politics. I'll even play nice and ignore your beliefs (afterall, we are not in a communist country that dictates how you think or believe) but I will not let the couple of snide shots at conservatives slide I will respond to one quote from you: "Conservatives and religious people and the less intelligent are more likely to reproduce."

Sure. That's right, all those unwed mothers of four kids by four different men, and all those deadbeat dads who don't take personal responsibility for their own actions are "CONSERVATIVE AND RELIGIOUS"! That was sarcasm, for those of you new to it.

Seriously, it's pretty obvious that the liberals are the ones outbreeding the rest of us.

And for my own snide shot at liberals, I always thought that liberals didn't discuss politics much because they weren't smart enough.

P.S. See, this is exactly why they don't want us to talk politics.

I named precisely 3 categories of people more likely to have children.

1. Conservatives
2. Religious people
3. Less intelligent people

"all those unwed mothers of four kids by four different men, and all those deadbeat dads who don't take personal responsibility for their own actions" - are LESS INTELLIGENT. ie, what one would have to be to not see your hilarious exclusion of my group #3 to make your point.

http://deus.org

On 2003-08-06 13:47, kahukini wrote:
I think the luxury of being really liberal, leftist, socialist etc. is a very recent thing in human history. We only in the late 1700's got freedom and equality as ideals instututed in governments, and in the late 20th century just got everyone able to participate in democracy (and just a couple of weeks ago finally allowed everyone in this country to make love however they like), the industrial revolution and now the technological revolution are still very recent, and its taking time for people to realize just how wealthy humanity is thanks to these innovations. The world is a different place now that for the first time allows for realistic futurist thinking. Imagine if you pressed a button to receive food instantly created from energy, and imagine if energy was free, produced by some yet uninvented technology in endless abundance. Imagine if your work consisted of what you wanted to do, and you did it because you wanted to. Imagine if it were this way for everyone. Human beings should not be defined by economics, but conservatives see the world as money flowing. More money good, less money bad. And we are all forced to live in this world. Money has nothing to do with being human. There will be a day (not in our lifetimes) when technology will be able to take care of people's basic needs. Then humankind will finally reach its potential, with a world full of people with time to develop their minds, to build amazing relationships with endless time, and to create what their unique experiences and talents allow them to create.

I had THIS SAME EXACT THOUGHT last night, so I immediately threw out what was left of the ditch weed and vowed never to buy from that particular dealer again.

:wink:

Kahukini,

Based on your replies, I now completely understand why those that DID organize this year's Hukilau were so extremely adamant about NOT wanting ANY of your help or even seeing you. How sweet!

(Yeah, good news travels to the West fast doesn't it; just think, soon you'll probably be here as you will have alienated yourself down South)

A liberal Tiki Centralite has a tiki mug collection of over 100 mugs and a conservative Tiki Centralite has a collection of less than 100 mugs.

At least that is my opinion.

This post is supposed to be funny - don't think too much into it.

TB

Just because I call myself Vintagegirl doesn't mean I never wear a brand new t-shirt.

I really dislike labels. It defeats the purpose of growing as a human being.

I know Basement Kahuna and KahluaGeoff are on the Republican/conservative side and I am on the Democrat/liberal side, but that hardly means a thing between us. I don't know many other people's bent, and only those by reason of having been around a while with them. I really think it is a hobby of any and all types. Some like the sour drinks, some the sweet. Politics isn't even a concern.

Amen Bruddah Swanky!

For the love of... LOCK IT, HANFORD! LOCK IT! HURRY!

On 2003-08-06 12:46, kahukini wrote:
my observation about popular political discussion offline and online is that liberal people, true to their philosophy, tend not to be interested in political talk

Kahukini, you must, simply must visit Vancouver! Liberals not interested in political discussion! Liberals don't see life in black and white! Liberals aren't prone to self-righteous rage!!! You are THE funniest guy in this entire forum!

(insert sound of rupturing diaphragm from uncontrollable hilarity here),
emspace.

P.S. loved the bit where you subtly equated conservatism with both religiousness and substandard intelligence, too! You just plain rock, dude!

I wasn't going to even post again on this thread, thinking it would die a quick and quiet death, but was shocked to come back a few hours later and see a heated discussion has erupted from my casual musings. I'm glad to see so many socially conscious folks are out there. And no, I didn't post this topic "to make an impression" (I get plenty enough attention via my Thrillville gig, warranted or otherwise, thank you very much) but to sorta test the local waters. I already know a lot of you posters personally and vice versa, but most I don't, since apparently people are posting here from all over the planet, hence the "faceless strangers" remark (also meaning perhaps it's best to bring up possibly contentious subjects in person,face to face - I'm new on this particular forum, but have been involved in other electronic disputes that ultimately proved futile, since basically it's a Clash of the Keyboards - I didn't want to stir up any trouble here just for the hell of it. I was truly curious, since Tiki is a cultural past time, and often where's there's culture, there's politics. But basically, it's true - when it comes right down to luau time, one's political persuasion is of no real significance.) Perhaps I should've posted this under the "Beyond Tiki" section, though I was specifically referring to politics as it relates to Tiki Culture. While I'm here, I should say I always sort of thought of Tiki as a pagan belief system, inspired by indigenous Polynesian culture, steeped in sensuality and personal freedom, making it a rather "liberal" lifestyle choice. Hawaii is one of the most liberal states, too - more so than California. But here on the mainland, for instance, Republicans often hold victory parties at Trader Vic's in Beverly Hills, andDon the Beachcomber in Palm Springs often attracted the Ronald Reagan/Bob Hope golf buddy crowd, and since Tiki as we celebrate it is basically a Caucasian version of a foreign culture, and a postwar suburban vision at that, you could also argue that our interpretation of it is basically conservative (i.e. politically incorrect - but the far left's tragic lack of a sense of humor is as offputting to me personally as the far right's "patriotic" form of fascism.)

But I already found out what I wanted to find out - philosophically and morally speaking, it's a healthy mix out there in Tiki land, and we can all get along. I thought I should contribute at least one last comment here so it wouldn't seem like I swatted a hornet's next then ran, only to stand back and witness the commotion I caused.

Thanks to all for their thoughtful feedback.
Now, back to the bar....

PS My wife, "The Tiki Goddess" and I are putting off procreation so we can travel and pursue our careers, and if we find ourselves ready to have a family beyond ourselves at some point, we will probably adopt, due to over-population concerns and our own philosophy about giving a a home to some poor lost kid who needs one, rather than just making another one ourselves. As for the idea that conservatives procreate more than liberals (never thought of that before) - perhaps most religious people tend to be conservative and don't practice birth control, but in my own experience, most of our married couple friends are poppin' out babies' like there's no tomorrow - and they're ALL liberals. So I think the future will remain pretty fairly balanced. At least I hope so.

The real division we need to be concerned about in today's world is :Those Who Know Tiki Existed Before Greg Brady and Those Who Don't. From that POV, we're all of the same persuasion hereabouts. Cheers!

[ Edited by: AquaZombie on 2003-08-06 17:23 ]

I am not sure how I get attacked for my emails but I was simply trying to answer the original question and not push any beliefs on anyone nor purport that I have any real knowledge of politics.

The truth is that I don't participate in a religion or political party and I am inter-ethnically married! Oooohhh Tabooo!

I only have one belief in life....Be nice to other people.

I am truly a dumb ass for getting involved in this dicussion.

How is that for freakin liberal!!!

For the record:

I don't think I've ever asked people to not talk about politics or religion here (although I could be wrong).

Topic Locked.

~Hanford

For those who want to discuss this further: kahukini runs a web forum on http://www.deus.org that is perfect for this kind of discussion (I'm assuming).