Will Smuggler's Cove be Tiki's Version of Black Flag? (cira 1984)

Here's a new topic that I wanted to have a little fun with. Middle-aged ex-Punks will understand (and I know there's a lot of you out there.) Others may be confused.

You're probably saying "JOHN-O what the heck are you talking about?"

Let me make an analogy. By the mid-1980's, Hardcore Punk Rock had adopted a very regimented formula in terms of dress as well as sound. Shaved head - check, Doc Martin boots - check, knucklehead attitude - check, cookie-cutter fast/thick/heavy sound - check. Dude, you're Hardcore Punk.

Now Black Flag was one of the original Hardcore bands that arguably set this blueprint. They were however, intelligent and artistically ambitious enough to want to move beyond it. Their core audience though, wanted a look and sound that was stuck in 1981 (i.e. the album "Damaged"). In fact, their core audience was exhibiting the same "jock" behaviour that Punk was supposed to be the anthesis of.

So what did Black Flag do? In terms of look, they grew their hair out like the despised hippies. In terms of sound, they slowed it down and incorporated more of a metal cross-over. This was later recognized as a major influence on the Seattle Grunge movement that spawned bands like Nirvana and Pearl Jam.

But how did Black Flag's core fans respond at the time? Not knowing what to make of this, they all flipped out when their preconceived notions of Punk style and sound were turned upside down. And when I say flipped out, I mean they reacted violently.

Now let me make a comparison to Tiki culture iconography (and I mean popular culture's, not necessarily Sven's). Classic Mai Tai - check, Aloha shirt - check, Martin Denny - check, Black velvet paintings - check, Tiki Mugs - check, Tikis carvings - check. Dude, you're an authentic Tiki-phile.

Now a guy like Martiki has major Tiki street cred. He was a key architect of Forbidden Island which was probably the most perfect realization of neo-Tiki to date. But what's his next project about? Based on what's been revealed so far, it's not just Tiki but will also incorporate a significant Caribbean influence. Will this include iconography like pirates and stuffed parrots as well as music like reggae and calypso? Will this also include untapped elements like Havana and Latin style and maybe even Voodoo? I'm really eager to see.

This might be the beginning of a style that evolves Tiki past it's current mid-century anchor, and introduces a pop culture fusion that incorporates the best of all worlds (or it may just be a really cool bar.)

So how will Tiki Central react to all of this? (besides enjoying the excellent cocktails) I'm not sure but I'm looking forward to watching the discussion.

I submit to you that Martin may very well be Tiki's own Henry Rollins (and that's a good thing.) :)

[ Edited by: JOHN-O 2009-10-07 22:57 ]

I think you might find some vague answers from Martin himself in this interview.

On 2009-10-07 17:29, JOHN-O wrote:
Now let me make a comparison to Tiki culture iconography (and I mean popular culture's, not necessarily Sven's).

Please differentiate: You mean Tiki culture iconography as in the Tiki Revival? And the latter, "Sven's", being more mid-century Tiki oriented Tiki? Or, if I am understanding it right, the first meaning "less-concerned-with-historic-context-and-style,-let's-just-have-fun" view of Tiki, as opposed to my take on Tiki?

But what's his next project about? Based on what's been revealed so far, it's not just Tiki but will also incorporate a significant Caribbean influence. Will this include iconography like pirates and stuffed parrots as well as music like reggae, calypso, and Jimmy Buffet? Will this also include untapped elements like Havana and Latin style and maybe even Voodoo? I'm really eager to see.

Well, Carribean or Tropical is not all bad, Martin's taste will include the right elements, which are certainly not Reggae or Jimmy Buffet. I assume it will be heavy on the nautical elements, which is very much in the Polynesian pop tradition, and all the jetsam and flotsam of the Seven Seas.

On 2009-10-07 17:43, JenTiki wrote:
I think you might find some vague answers from Martin himself in this interview.

Well there you go, just read the interview, and I was not so far off. :)

I really don't think that in terms of ideological fervor, Tiki can hold a candle to Punk. There's just not as much at stake in Tiki. Only nut cases like me who see it as an ART FORM would spend the time and energy I invest, and there aren't that many of those around. I love discussions like you are suggesting for the theoretical exercise, but I don't think the majority of Tiki folk really worries about such things. Case in point the recent T.V.'s warehouse discussion.

[ Edited by: bigbrotiki 2009-10-08 08:05 ]

On 2009-10-07 17:53, bigbrotiki wrote:

Please differentiate: You mean Tiki culture iconography as in the Tiki Revival? And the latter, "Sven's", being more mid-century Tiki oriented Tiki? Or, if I am understanding it right, the first meaning "less-concerned-with-historic-context-and-style,-let's-just-have-fun" view of Tiki, as opposed to my take on Tiki?

Well I guess I phrased that poorly. I wanted to include icons like Hawaiiana, Black Velvets, and Beachcomber which as stand-alones would not meet the "Tiki style" definition. My example was intended to include them witin the context of physical Tikis so I guess it really wasn't necessary to qualify it like that. Sorry, I didn't want to start a thread like the Hawaiiana one from earlier this year. :)

My point was also that Martin's new project was intended to be more than a classic Tiki bar (which is confirmed in the linked article). I was interested if Tiki Central was open to something which expands on Tiki Style or whether they preferred it old-school like Forbidden Island. I guess after several Martiki cocktails, it won't make any difference anyway. :)

Also I thought maybe some of the old Punks here would appreciate the analogy.

[ Edited by: JOHN-O 2009-10-07 22:18 ]

I'm gonna be honest. I did not.

:lol: :lol:

I did!
A friend of mine was seeing Greg Ginn at the time (early '80's) and had to endure their constant listening to their hero, "The Nuge."

They loved Ted Nugent.

And you know, I have to admit I never stopped loving him either. (Yes, you can take away whatever Cool Points I still may have.)

I haven't gotten to go to SC yet, and I haven't read that interview yet, but I know whatever Martin does, it is done RIGHT. FI was perfectly built out and has perfect cocktails and atmosphere, so any venture of his will be a pleasure.

(And I loved Black Flag with all 3 singers, although I never saw them live with Keith. There's room for more great bands and more great tiki or Caribbean/Trader bars in my world.)

Old,
F

Does one bar in one city in one state in one country of the world have influence over a whole (sub) culture?

Well it can be said that some physical spaces can be responsible for shaping a sub-culture. Case in point, CBGB's in New York and the Masque Club in Los Angeles.

To address your question specifically, do I think Smuggler's Cove will reshape Tiki sub-culture? Seriously, No.

It will unquestionaly be a significant place that broadens people's perceptions on the diversity and subtlety of rum (which outside of these circles, really doesn't get the respect of let's say Scotch). Also stylistically, I'm looking forward to how all of the different influences are going to mesh together. I will be surprised if I see TC'ers swapping out their Aloha shirts for Guayaberas. It is safe to say though, that if there were no neo-Tiki revival then there would be no Smuggler's Cove. I do give Martin credit for trying something different rather than creating just another branch of Forbidden Island.

Also I was playing on people's attitudes that Tiki constitues a "life style" vs. an just art form or style. My opinion is of the latter.

My post was meant to be tongue-in-cheek, I figured that ex-Punks from the late 1970's through mid-1980's would get the joke. My impression was there were a lot on Tiki Central. Obviously one person got it and thought it was funny, another (I'm assuming) got it but didn't appreciate the comparison, and everyone else had no opinion.

I thought the analogy was clever but I guess I misjudged people's interest or comprehension of it.

My next posted topic will be much more accessible. "What dog is the the most Tiki-ish?" :)

[ Edited by: JOHN-O 2009-10-08 07:37 ]

C'mon John-O

I think you have a lot of closet Jimmy Buffet parrot heads here, and all that Dave Matthews & Jack Johnson dreck too. I had asked earlier which member of the Ramones was the most tikish? Never got an answer

On 2009-10-08 02:47, Bongo Bungalow wrote:
Does one bar in one city in one state in one country of the world have influence over a whole (sub) culture?

Not entirley, but in part. Smuggler's Cove might have an effect the same way Martin's and Jeff Berry's work has gotten notice in the press recently: America has finally caught on to the cocktail revival, and because the media always has room for gourmet crap (that means all the other stuff :) ), these two honorable gentlemen have held up the flag of Tiki over the last two years by having Tiki mentioned in the context of their cocktail art. Tiki as an art form has never gotten that kind of serious attention by writers!

I am sure Smuggler's Cove will have its share of write ups, and they will mention Tiki, probably in the context of, like John said, "Tiki and beyond", because the media always wants to be on the "IN" on the next trend. So it might have a secondary effect on how Tiki is portrayed by the media, and thus perceived by the public.

The best thing I believe is that the place will help to get RUM more attention, which will hopefully help boost the availability and quality of it, which has been declining in the U.S.

But that really wasn't your question, John, sorry. :)

[ Edited by: bigbrotiki 2009-10-08 08:02 ]

"Pets are welcome,Children 'MUST' be on leash" TD

[ Edited by: TIKI DAVID 2009-10-08 08:46 ]

Kinda like my 'punk' attitude during High School (Class of '81)

I fought for anomalous style but truthfully to be a 'punk' within my peers had to be uniformed (always to keep from getting BEAT)

Possibly its the fine line between what I thought was individual VS what I had to conform to as part of a 'group' - be that in social context as 'punk' or literally conform as a member of a rock and roll group - that is the struggle. Its universal truth. Again, I stress as much as we thought we could stand alone as an unique identity we were all part of a larger dynamic that always demands expectation.

As a 'punk' drummer between '78 - '83 I witnessed, lived and struggled to keep ahead or at least afloat of the So. Cal 'punk' energy surge. In the end I and most of my peers did our best to grow up and away from that madness. (Had to) find a job and fall into the American way of 'life'. Some peers fell into hard addictions, homelessness and despair. Some, to this day, have never ever recovered. But that's okay that's life.

I'm all for individualism. I'm all for balance. Martin will create any business/venture and environment he wants, and I need not either embrace or shit on his creation and vision. Whatever he does will never influence or change my inner emotional take on 'tiki' whatever...but I realize that a four-year old child exposed to it will have a different emotional take, expressed forty years from today. Like Sven expressed, tiki will never have the same sense of urgency for social change that punk did or does for me.

Really when it comes down to it, I don't know what I'm saying. Punk at its best. Hey! let's go get stoned and listen to something good...

(As for Black Flag - I witnessed all the incarnations of that and personally I find the Keith era best now that I may look back thirty (!) years ago and reminisce. The energy and excitement I remember very well.)

Thanks AGAIN John-O for another interesting discussion.

David, I think Frankie was playing nice. If anything he's mocking TC's knee-jerk contempt of Jimmy Buffet (what did JB do, molest your children?). That's one reason I removed the reference from my original post. I didn't want to get bombarded by people attacking me for insinuating that Martin's going to have JB on the soundtrack.

I would suggest you re-post your (original) comment on Bilge and let the fireworks begin. Some say these discussions (if you can call it that) have no place on TC. Me, I like to watch a good train wreck. :)

[ Edited by: JOHN-O 2009-10-08 08:52 ]

I saw Greg Ginn a few years back at Alex's Bar in Long Beach. He brought a drummer with him, and his guitar. He played all Flag songs with a pre-recorded bass track, and he had to change tapes between every song. It was one of the saddest things I've ever seen.

Wait, what was the question?

P.S. Frankie - Johnny was by far the most Tiki. The man literally looked like he was carved out of wood.

The real question is, will writers in major media, when discussing the latest and greatest in cocktails include FI, and interview someone there, or will the talk about SC and interview Martin. I bet on the latter.

That means, whatever cred FI gave this here Tiki movement will be diminished. As long as they continue to interview the Bum, things are the same. As long as their talks about SC and with Martin are vintage Tiki based, things are the same.

As soon as they start saying Martin left Tiki and FI and went in a new direction and begin placing him and SG in some sort of other cocktail genre, it's all over.

I know Martin is a cocktail fan. Tiki is his genre up to now. We ride with his star. Or don't.

He and Jeff are the celebrities of our culture these days.

And I don't know anyone that doesn't enjoy great cocktails, regardless.

Swanky,

Your post brings up an interesting point.

What exactly constitutes a Tiki cocktail? I might argue that it can only be considered Tiki if it was created during pre-Tiki TV/DTBC or in an actual mid-50's to late-60's Tiki bar. Anything outside of this definition might simply just be a fruity cocktail that has rum.

Martin is definitely going in a new direction. It appears he's introducing long lost cocktails that are not limited to just original Tiki drinks. Do you really want those other drinks confused with Tiki? His new mission is to create a new respect for rum as well as place these drinks within their cultural and historical contexts (which include but are not limited to Tiki.)

I think this is more important than trying to progress any so-called "Tiki movement". Think of it as the RUM movement. :)

Tiki or not, I just want to enjoy a great cocktail.

On 2009-10-08 10:49, JOHN-O wrote:

His new mission is to create a new respect for rum as well as place these drinks within their cultural and historical contexts (which include but are not limited to Tiki.)

I think this is more important than trying to progress any so-called "Tiki movement". Think of it as the RUM movement. :)

Tiki or not, I just want to enjoy a great cocktail.

That's the impression I got out of it. It seems like he's looking to make SC a specialized Rum cocktail bar....a place for connoisseurs of rum drinks...

I think he wants to take the rum based cocktail to a higher echelon. Look at it as when the Beatles made Rubber Soul....an artistic growth.

I think Tiki will be part of the equation, but not the whole thing.

I DO like the punk rock/Black Flag comparison to this whole thread.

Wait, that's it. I just realized this is the next evolutionary step. This is the new sub-culture.

Rather than limit ourselves to Tiki culture, we should embrace Rum culture. From now I'm going to think of myself not as a Tiki-phile but as a "Rummy". We can call ourselves the Rummy Nation. I like the sound of that. Can http://www.rummycentral.com and "The Book of Rummy" be far behind?

This new proposed RUM CULTURE needs graphic images to identify the new direction, the new movement.

YAHOO! RUMS' THE WURD!

It's the other way around, all true Tikiphiles ARE already Rummies

The Book of Rummies has been somewhat done, in Jeff Berry's works. And for the quality of cocktails that will be unearthed at the Cove, see Ted Haigh's work:

http://www.amazon.com/Vintage-Spirits-Forgotten-Cocktails-Alamagoozlum/dp/1592535615/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1255030008&sr=1-1

And I hear there is a cocktail from this book among them, too :) :

http://www.amazon.com/Havana-Before-Castro-Tropical-Playground/dp/1423603672/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1255030164&sr=1-1

It's a little strange to wake up somewhat bleary-eyed and disoriented and read first thing that you are apparently Henry Rollins. Which I would take as a compliment.

I want to thank you all for the kind words and support- it truly means the world to me.

I think the interview mostly clarified things, or maybe it just made things weirder. Not sure.

I will just say that I am brewing up a concept- fleshed out by the very skilled hands and vision of NOTCH- that I think will both push the boundaries of what we've seen, yet still be conceptually accessible & exciting to my fellow enthusiasts. Beyond that, I don't want to say much else so that you'll be surprised, but it's coming along beautifully.

Also, I don't own any guayaberas if that qualifies as a clue. :)

Mahalo!

I accidently hit Greg Ginn in the head with a basketball once.

Martin,

Thanks for chiming in the thread. I thought it was appropriate that you had the last word there, but then Boris-Boris screwed it up. :)

I'm really looking forward to Smuggler's Cove and I will be wearing my Guayabera.

FYI, you probably don't remember me, but we chatted several times during F.I.'s first year when business brought me to the Bay area. I think you introduced me to HumuHumu and some others but that was before I really started to follow TC. (And now I can't stop posting :()

After Smuggler's Cove, this should be the new "Rummy" image.

Also the Henry Rollins analogy was intended to mean you were taking things to the next level beyond Tiki just like Rollins did with Punk Rock.

But dude, you do kind of look like him.

Dec 8th is approaching. Here's the play list (in order). Please let's not play the last 2 songs.

1. "Thirsty and Miserable"
2. "Fix Me"
3. "Gimmie Gimmie Gimmie" (Gimme some more, Gimmie Gimmie Gimmie, Don't Ask What For)
4. "Wasted"
5. "Damaged"
6. "I've Had It"
7. "Drinking and Driving"
8. "Police Story"

And don't forget to take pictures.

[ Edited by: JOHN-O 2009-11-28 09:32 ]