Tiki Music Defined

And this!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-sWTPYExh0

and this!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1bVpbu8bXQ

Ok, sorry for the derail....now back to the tiki discussion!

Well, (rockabilly intro!)

.....maybe one more:

Sergio with a couple of Manson chicks (Just kidding!)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqcWyhiP1Pc&feature=fvw

And a three chicks even hotter!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9TqNOX05Kk&feature=related

and just when you thought it could not get sexier:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkmr1qhdTks

This one is very rare! Who knew Mike Douglas could sing?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_GIvHUmpxE

[ Edited by: lucas vigor 2010-04-05 08:24 ]

Nice timing Lucas !! You and Marty Lush are on the same page....

http://www.tikicentral.com/viewtopic.php?topic=36056&forum=17&3

Latin rhythms in the Tiki Bar !! Finally we're breaking out of our Poly-Pop Exotica silo. :D

I'm off to the Tonga Hut....

On 2010-04-03 15:29, JOHN-O wrote:
Nice timing Lucas !! You and Marty Lush are on the same page....

Put it this way...I know who HE is, but does he know who I am?

Just spoke with Marty Lush at Tonga Hut tonight. Yes, he knows who you are !!

Face it Lucas, you're a major Tiki celebrity. :)

Hi kaiwaza,

re: the Arab dance comment , FYI we (Mr. ho's Orchestrotica Mini) just played this tune in NYC about five hours ago :) I think there's a clip of it on the website at http://orchestrotica.com/exotica.cfm from our December show when I first arranged this with my new exotica quartet. You are spot on about this tune working beautifully in the exotica category along with countless other melodies from symphonic repertoire. I may chime in more on this topic later :)

On 2010-04-02 09:52, ikitnrev wrote:

Maybe exotica is a bit unusual in that it allows for a wide range of expression - from the frantic flurry of the tribal drums pounding in unison, to the soft sounds of someone blowing a conch shell way off in the distance.

One thing I almost mentioned in my above post, but did not, was that classical music is definitely one genre that does allow for a wide range of musical expressions in a single piece - and thus it was nice to see Lucas follow-up with his examples of proto-exotica classical.

So much of classical music was the pre-movie/pre-television form of a soundtrack. So many stories - fairy tales, historical pieces, etc. were told in a rich and dynamic orchestral format. The audience members were likely already very familiar with the stories, so the music truly accompanied whatever imagery they might already have in there mind.

However, orchestras and opera required large numbers of musicians, which required large halls and sources of funding, which evolved to the orchestra and opera being viewed as a place of formality - a venue where you would wear your best formal clothes -- the complete opposite of the relaxed imagery of sitting on a beach and wearing a Hawaiian shirt.

Perhaps the real genius of Martin Denny was to downsize the size of the required ensembles, and develop suitable arrangements, so it would be easier to regularly perform in a night-club setting. The music wasn't heard live in a formal concert hall, nor in a recording studio. The orchestral soundtrack-like music was now presented live in a night-club, with drinks and cocktails flowing, where Hawaiian shirts could be worn -- and that was a wonderful combination.

One thing I loved about the past performances of Robert Drasnin at several past Hukilau events, was that it did recreate - at least for one evening, that richer orchestral sound - and I am pleased that there are others who are carrying on this tradition.

As for the influence of Jon Cage's prepared piano, it had a definite influence on the early work of duo-pianists Ferrante and Teicher. Some of my favorite LPs of the mid-50's are their prepared piano LPs (before they realized commercial success with their much less interesting 1960's work)

Read more about their prepared piano work here ...
http://www.spaceagepop.com/ferrante.htm

Vern

Hey Mr. Ho.

That sounds very hip.
Thanks for posting it. Love the site, too.

I say, bring back the classical style! Don't be suprised if one day, Lucas Vigor arrives on the scene with a string quintet playing chamber music versions of all the best lounge and exotica tunes! (Think the string section on Les Baxter's original Quiet Village) It could happen!

On 2010-04-03 21:47, Mr. Ho wrote:
Hi kaiwaza,

re: the Arab dance comment , FYI we (Mr. ho's Orchestrotica Mini) just played this tune in NYC about five hours ago :) I think there's a clip of it on the website at http://orchestrotica.com/exotica.cfm from our December show when I first arranged this with my new exotica quartet. You are spot on about this tune working beautifully in the exotica category along with countless other melodies from symphonic repertoire. I may chime in more on this topic later :)

Damn fine stuff!

Thanks for the kind words! We'll be playing this tune live in a few weeks if you're in the Boston area! :wink:

Mr. Ho

I don't want to embarass myself with my ignorance, but were do songs like "Girl from Ipanema" fit in? Bossa Nova was popular (1958-63) during the golden Tiki age and I imagine it played often at home tiki bars. I know enough about music to realize it's quite dissimilar to Exotica; different instrumentation, different beat, vocals vs instrumental - but it still has the vibe of tropical nights, white beaches, and exotic locations (and it's NOT Caribbean :) )

A friend recommended that I read the liner notes for Sabu's 'Sorcery' LP, released in 1958. He claims it is the only LP that he ever purchased (for $1 in a thrift store) and he did so mainly for the liner notes, claiming "If they don't capture the lurking danger that burbles under the frothy surface of exotica, I don't know what does."

I'll provide only a small sample here, followed by a link to a website that contains the full liner notes.

From the shores of the rivers of the sun come sounds, sounds various, beautiful and horrible with life, sounds as old as time, heard when brute creatures trod the earth, sounds that owe nothing to civilization and everything to rank and teeming biology. Product of a thousand animal and insect chirps, creeks, wails, thuds, thumps and stricken cries, they are an aural anthology of nature in its true guise, that nature that owns the earth and speaks for it, nature that is as ancient as the planets and as endless as the sun itself ........

........ Man, the white-collared animal, occasionally dares to insert his prying boat, a lone dugout or a venturesome canoe, into these regions hung with vine where waters run that are grown to their surfaces with vagrant lilies, errant bitter ferns of musty odor, slime-decked pools of dead life rising with the swell. Man, the technical beast, opens an ear to the voice that sounds and he hears the original black and sordid magic of life, that sorcery he too came out of and now fears.

Here a mating call and a death rattle uttered by separate and independent beasts combine into a peculiar, haunting chime. The whine of a mateless mammal and the ticking of some hundred tiny pests occur haphazardly together to give an orchestra of blood and friction music indiscriminately scored for fauna and winds ................

The full liner notes can be read here .....
http://www.hipwax.com/liners/sabu.html

Vern

On 2010-04-04 21:36, MadDogMike wrote:
I don't want to embarass myself with my ignorance, but were do songs like "Girl from Ipanema" fit in? Bossa Nova was popular (1958-63) during the golden Tiki age and I imagine it played often at home tiki bars. I know enough about music to realize it's quite dissimilar to Exotica; different instrumentation, different beat, vocals vs instrumental - but it still has the vibe of tropical nights, white beaches, and exotic locations (and it's NOT Caribbean :) )

Well...

it's practically my favorite type of music. The sentiment is there, except in the one major way it differs from Exotica/Tiki...the instrumentation, sense of whimsy, and vague tropical location. With most Exotica, you can rarely pinpoint an exact country or island it is supposed to be from...it's vaguely hawaiian, or vaguely African, etc. With Bossa Nova, you automatically know it from Brazil. Then, the music is very serious and mainly concerned with romantic themes. In the instrumentation, bossa nova also has a standard set of instruments that they mostly use that is very different to that found in exotica.

But, where it is similar is that like most of the tiki music (except surf tiki and rockabilly tiki), the music is easy listening, and that's the section it would have been found in the record stores of yesteryear.

I actually make a stronger connection with some of the early new age bands and exotica. I feel that was the direct descendent style. Take the band "Shadowfax", for example.

Designed for the modern bachelor pad, albeit with a yuppy bent, Shadowfax proudly listed every single world percussion instrument they used on thier albums. Boobams, devil chasers, gongs, ect...the liner notes reads like an Arthur Lyman album.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AMyjWL81_c&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Td1D3hQyGUs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6G6B4hkubU&feature=related

Having started a band called the Tiki Cowboys back in 2007, I hope to accomplish a country-blues vibe with some Tiki flavors, predominately with percussion (no drum-kit!) and some ukulele. Tiki, like many other music genres was defined largely in the 50's and 60's and has grown into many forms and sub genres. My hope is to do something different, have new music that combines other genres including Tiki, Blues and Country. Here in Chicago we have a giant lake and a growing beach front music scene. I hope to create a new sound, and a freshwater Tiki scene here in Chicago. Since I can't go to the islands, I have to carve my own tiki so to speak here in Chicago. I have no desire to have a "Tiki Tribute" band, but I do love Tiki and hope to keep the torch burning, even if it is not purely all "Tiki".

Just my 2¢

Baron
http://www.tikicowboys.com

WOW !! "Tiki twang", the influences of Hank Williams, Don Ho, and Howlin' Wolf ??

I'm not sure how others here are going to react to the Country aspect of your music. This isn't "Tiki Music" in the traditional sense, but it is GREAT music.

If you're playing in LA, I'm there !!

On 2010-04-01 09:42, bigtikidude wrote:

…and the Beach Boys are Beach music, Not surf.

On 2011-01-30 15:12, Matiki wrote:

Again I beg of you no " Bahama Mamma Tiki " Bahama Breeze and Cheesburger in Paradise is not Tiki!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and we have those here all ready Thatch does not make a "Tiki Bar" . We want escapism from the cold days of winter, too forget about the outside world. We dont need to Beach Boys, Bob Marley, or other assorted Reggae. Slack Guitar or surf music would be great.

A recent post from Maitiki got me to thinking about the Beach Boys. Now while I understand most Surf Music Aficionados (SFAs) define "Surf Music" as instrumentals only, here's my question for all of you…

Do you like to hear the Beach Boys in the Tiki Bar (or does it make you cringe) ??

I'm talking about pre "Pet Sounds" Beach Boys. I can understand the bias against Marley and Buffett as they vibe the wrong coast and represent the wrong decade, but for me, any pop music from the JFK-era sets the right mid-century mood.

Why would you find instrumental Surf Music acceptable but not "Beach Music" with vocals ?? :)

[ Edited by: JOHN-O 2011-01-30 17:05 ]

are you asking me too,
or everybody except me?
:wink:

Jeff(btd)

Yes, Jeff I'm asking you too.

Now I understand your personal preference for instrumental Surf Music, but wouldn't the argument for Surf Music in the Tiki bar apply also to vocals (i.e. Beach Boys, Jan & Dean, etc.) as well as instrumentals.

For people who didn't live in So CA, arguably both forms of music provided the same escapism to the "mythical" land of Bikini Beach.

While the Beach Boys are considered Surf Music and I would prefer to hear that than most of the mindless crap music of today I think of 60's Surf music as The Ventures, Dick Dale,etc. I also view surf music as Instumental stuff like the Volcanoes, Dynotones, Los Straight Jackets as stuff I would want to hear in a Tiki Bar today. I just dont want to hear crap coming from some corporate radio station when I am trying to forget about the outside world. Some creativity with the decor and music please

John O,

I don't hate the Beach Boys, and Jan and Dean,
but to me there is a pretty evident difference between the vocal and instro,
Surf and Hot rod musics.

Some instro surf can be Exotic,
and most Vocal surf, is more R&B orientated.
R&B music doesn't make me want to drift away and forget about lifes troubles.

That being said,
I would much rather listen to BB's or J&D in a tiki bar,
than Rap, Hip Hop, or Techno music.

Jeff(btd)

OK, I get that and could support your opinion as follows:

Instrumental Surf music is Tiki music (and "Beach" music with vocals is not) because:

1. Instrumental Surf music is more geographically vague. We can visualize the perfect waves of Oahu's North Shore or (Bali Hi ??) as easily as the break at Malibu.

2. Instrumental Surf music arguably just sounds more exotic.

On the flip side however, I might argue that the ACADEMIC case for Surf Music in Tiki style/culture was based on the existence of Tiki iconongraphy in the (consumer) Surfing fad of that time. The BIGGEST ambassadors of that "lifestyle" were groups like the Beach Boys and Jan & Dean much more so than Dick Dale, the Chantays, or the Surfaris (based on record sales).

Now where was that picture of Brian Wilson wearing that Tiki pendant ?? :)

(And on a related Surf Music note, please bring the Nocturnes CD to Don's tonight.)

On 2010-04-06 17:21, JOHN-O wrote:
WOW !! "Tiki twang", the influences of Hank Williams, Don Ho, and Howlin' Wolf ??

I'm not sure how others here are going to react to the Country aspect of your music. This isn't "Tiki Music" in the traditional sense, but it is GREAT music.

If you're playing in LA, I'm there !!

If you listen, you here a lot of country music in Hawaiian and Tiki music, for instance the "double stop" break is used. The history of the popular Hawaiian sound was helped to be shaped by mainland musicians in the early to mid 1900's with the inclusion especially of pedal steel and lap steel guitars, also used in both country and hawaiian music.

Now the influence of Jamaican reggae has "Jawaiian" becoming a popular off shoot style of musical stylings cross-pollenating.

Even the great IZ sings "Country Roads" by John Denver.

my 2¢

[ Edited by: lucas vigor 2016-09-23 13:00 ]

Thanks for pointing that out for the thousandth time Lucas. :P ( Maybe you should cut and paste it to save time having to retype it EVERY time) :wink:
It was amazing to see how empty the Bahooka was when the Smoking Menehunes played there last time.

GROG have Hapahaole music in GROG' home tiki bar, but you've convinced GROG to go burn GROG' CD's.

GROG miss Tiki-Kate

[ Edited by: grog 2011-02-04 13:17 ]

I could put it in my signature line??

See, now your thinking!

It is whatever works in your camp when you are sipping the hand crafted cocktails and enjoying the Ohana of the tiki brotherhood, y'all!

Shaken and stirred - Vince Martini

Did I really join January 2003? Holy crap...anyway sorry I missed this thread, because now I have to come in late to the party just to say:

Rock was the DEATH of Tiki. When rock invaded the world - especially Hawaii - that was the end. Steel guitars got hung up in pawn shops and yes, even Hawaiians stopped playing their own music, and Tiki temples the world over started going out of business and turning into generic restaurants and parking lots. Rock culture insisted that the Tiki culture of their parents was embarrassing, cheesy, trite, dead as the dodo. So don't rockabilly me no rockabillies, and don't surf me no California twangy guitars. That...is NOT...Tiki! Just because Cali beach boys bought those cute lil' Coco Joe amulets to wear around their necks does not make the rest of their culture Tiki.

The problem here, if there is one, is that everyone wants their personal thing to be "Tiki", and to hell with the roots and the tradition and the beauty that is and was Tiki. Jimmy Buffet? Tiki. "Anarchy in the UK"? Tiki. Bollocks! Bossa nova isn't Tiki, and neither is calypso. This discussion has been done to death here before, and every time it's down to exotica and Hawaiian music, with maybe some soupcons of Tahitian bamboo. Swanky's two compilations - remember them? - do pretty well at summing it up; the two Eden Ahbez songs add a bit of beatnik to the mixes, but they lean heavily toward the exotica rubric, especially "The Old Boat".

The more unrelated crap you add to a culture, the more vague and watery it becomes - like drowning good booze with too much mixer, dig? Your personal thing is your personal thing, and you're entitled to it, but calling it Tiki just because you WANT it to be Tiki don't make it Tiki. You talk about how the culture has evolved? I call it devolution brought on by people insisting their thing is part of the Tiki thing. Very typical 90s attitude IMO, no surprises really.

And Tiki Cowboy, you have it totally back-asswards when you say:

"The history of the popular Hawaiian sound was helped to be shaped by mainland musicians in the early to mid 1900's with the inclusion especially of pedal steel and lap steel guitars, also used in both country and Hawaiian music."

The steel guitar is a purely Hawaiian invention as all of us who play it know, and the first country steel players learned their chops from listening to Hawaiian music! This is open history available to anyone who wants to do some reading as opposed to assuming. You look up Leon McAuliffe and Joaquin Murphey, Hoot Gibson - there's a reason all those early guys, right up to Bud Isaacs on pedal, included Hawaiian songs on their albums! There's a reason Jerry Byrd - who was inspired to take up the steel by listening to "Hawaii Calls" on the radio - moved to Hawaii after a long and highly successful career as country music's first-call steel player, to try to inspire Hawaiians to take up their own instrument, long buried as a result of the mainland pop invasion!

I could go on but I think I've made my point, hopefully: exotica and Polynesian music, everything else is dross, like remoras that have attached themselves to a mighty Great White to hitch a ride.

BTW I am not fuming in high dudgeon as I write this; stating the obvious isn't stressful.

emspace is the "new" Lucas Vigor. Or possibly he was the the original Lucas Vigor.

Or maybe he IS Lucas Vigor !! (Possessed, just like in the "Exorcist"). :D

faaaaarrrk, I really enjoyed emspaces' posts but only liked Lucas Vigors'.

*edit- I wish I had NEVER commented. For clarity, read Lukis' post on page 10.

[ Edited by: komohana 2011-10-15 20:25 ]

Lucas lives, I assure you, but I ain't him. :) And thanks for the kind and funny words. I thought even the whiff of a suggestion that surf isn't Tiki might get me made to walk the plank by people who think pirates are Tiki. :wink:

komohana, sorry if I rained on your or anyone's parade. I like to think the fact that I've been into this thing since before "The Book of Tiki" was released (seeing it for the first time in a high-end Vancouver bookstore was like "ah, my Bible has been written at last!"), and that the seed was planted in childhood when I grew up in the early 60s, visiting Hawaii where my auntie lived and regularly being taken to a real Tiki restaurant in my hometown might count for something. You can still enjoy my posts without agreeing with them.

People nowadays hate being "schooled" don't they? - that's why it's considered an insulting term. Another way to look at it might be simply acknowledging, in an adult way, that some people are more experienced and maybe have given a subject deeper thought and practice, and maybe their ideas are worth listening to. There's a lot of disrespect for that in our culture now; it's pretty adolescent IMO. The whole "it's all about ME and MY ideas" thing we see in reality TV and permeating our society is not - again, IMO - very damn healthy.

But hey - YMMV. Live and let live. Here's the Swanky exotica link for those who don't know it: http://www.swankpad.org/blather/2010/08/14/swank-vinyl-exotica-is-free/.

aloha,
em.

PS here's that restaurant for those who might not have seen it: http://www.backattheranch.ca/mike/Beachcomber-exterior.jpg

[ Edited by: emspace 2011-10-09 10:02 ]

emspace, I think that, perhaps, we have some crossed wires here.

I merely thought that John-O was onto some hidden truth.

I can assure you that you have never "rained on my parade".

As far as the exact definition of Tiki music is concerned, I neither know
nor care, I do know what I like however and the rest can look after themselves.

*edit- I wish I had NEVER commented. For clarity, read Lukis' post on page 10.

[ Edited by: komohana 2011-10-15 20:31 ]

On 2011-10-09 19:24, komohana wrote:
...

As far as the exact definition of Tiki music is concerned, I neither know
nor care, ...

You're kidding right? You're posting on Tiki Central in the Tiki Music Forum in a topic titled Tiki Music Defined... :roll:

On 2010-04-01 15:55, lucas vigor wrote:

On 2010-04-01 14:50, aquarj wrote:
So personally, I would exclude rockabilly and even most surf. Surf is an interesting one because a lot of songs share some of that minor key exotic feeling, but it's oriented toward more of a teenage audience. The kids at the dance, as opposed to their parents at the bar. But surf was mostly still from the era of ballrooms and matching jackets. The same transition over just a couple years that carried the shift to more garage, psych, and later punk, coincided with the beginning of the end for the classic poly pop culture that we celebrate on TC. So that's part of why these other genres seem more clearly excluded to me, but that somehow surf almost fits.

-Randy

This is a sentiment I personally shared for the longest time. To me, it was always simple: If the music did not have some connection to jazz pop, it was not lounge/exotica. I always said that rock music and all it's derivations (including Surf) were not Tiki. That was an opinion I kept for many years. I would especially get infuriated when Buffet fans or Hippy music fans would insist thier music was Tiki, or should be discussed on this forum.

My opinions came from my belief in the strong difference between professional, trained musicians and amatuer, un-trained musicians. The former being who invented exotica (Baxter, Lyman, Denny, Esquivel) and the latter being some dude with long hair and a guitar in his garage, and knowledge of only three or four chords.

I felt that there was an inherent better quality to the music pre-1964, in that almost all of it was created and performed by pro, trained musicians.

However, since that time I have expanded my opinion of what I think constitutes Tiki Music. For example, back then, had you played me a Ding Dong Devil's song, (apologies, ding dongs!) I would have said emphatically NO! Not Tiki! Not even close! They are a garage punk band....

But a closer look, and taking in to consideration the CURRENT Tiki scene, with it's vast connection to surf, punk and low-brow art/hot-rod culture...would make me change that opinion and now include the Ding Dong Devils as a true tiki band. Same goes for the Ghastly ones and the creepy creeps. They are not out of place at a tiki event.

Look, I have taken a lot of flack for my purist stance on what is Tiki music over the years. I have modified my once hardline stance so that I now can accept those bands that are not jazz based, (performed by guys with short hair and suits, and recorded by guys wearing white lab coats), as being part of our Tiki scene!

Jim Tikiyaki said it best: Why have limits? I agree now.

My personal preference will always be for the original, jazz based exotica and even Hapa Haole music...but can music be good even if not technically inside those parameters? Can a simple 3 chord song be fullfilling and great anyway? You bet!

I am in two "Tiki" bands that are on extreme poles of this style. The Smoking Menehunes is possibly the most Tiki band I have ever heard, because it is straightforward Hapa Haole style, same as you would have heard in the Waikiki Hotels in 1961. But is it popular? No way. Only popular with people over the age of 70, it seems. The Hula Girls technically are only marjinally connected to the original Tiki scene of the golden era...yet, the music is GREAT in my opinion, and I LOVE it! And as I said before, the lyrics are all about Tiki!

I wonder if Lucas still stands by what he said above?
Hmmmmmm?

Jeff(btd)

This works for me.

floggin' a dead horse.

[ Edited by: komohana 2011-10-15 20:32 ]

still floggin' him

[ Edited by: komohana 2011-10-15 20:33 ]

Good, thought-provoking stuff here, and komohana I'm glad the sun is shining - it ought to be, you're almost a month into Spring! :)

But consider this y'all: if I decided (and let's face it, SOMEONE had to decide punk could be Tiki, right? It wasn't some mass wave that occurred all at once; someone had to suggest it) that Western Swing, which I love, is Tiki, would it then be Tiki? Because I SAID SO? Or if Western Swing is somehow "hip" enough to be Tiki, how about just good old honky-tonk country? After all - I said so.

If I said that collecting Kewpie dolls or fossil trilobites, or cart racing or doing the fecking dishes were all Tiki - would that MAKE them Tiki?

If you still don't get my point then I'll just bow out on the subject, but please bear in mind: I am NOT saying you're not allowed to like a certain kind of music; just that if you call it Tiki just because you like Tiki AND that kind of music, then what you're doing is exercising egotism by trying to write yourself into the Tiki story by ALTERING IT TO FIT YOUR PERSONAL THING. And that, IMO has a hell of a lot more to do with reality-TV culture than Tiki culture.

This could go on forever...and probably will.
I have my own ideas about what music is "tiki" & what isn't.
However, I feel the real problem here is WHO is defining what "tiki" is. We're not talking about impressionism or samba music or aboriginal Papua New Guinea carvings. We're talking about something that doesn't really HAVE an established definition except by a few people, albiet very knowledgable, who have created a definition.
I mean, it's very unclear sometimes to even have a discussion about what is "Hawaiian" let alone what is "tiki."

I don't particularly like to say this, but we're not talking "high art" or "high culture" here...we're talking about a pop culture phenomenon and, eventually, popular use determines definition. So, as much as we might have a specific knowledgable viewpoint, if the general public says Jimmy Buffett is tiki, then, in fact, Jimmy Buffet is tiki. I think the mid-century reference is very important to a lot of us, but I think to the general public "tiki" is also 2011, and doesn't carry that time period reference.

I hope nobody here gets mad if I am interested in adding some..."high art" to it whatever that means. i personally look at exotica as a framework for escapism, certain types of sound/timbre combinations, and a means to explore old and new simultaneously without having to adhere to codified rules that exist in certain genres of music (rules that I welcome when playing those styles as they define the styles!) So, not sure if what our quartet is doing is tiki or not....or anyone else's. I've borrowed the third-stream music movement to define what my group does as third-stream exotica. Really, does it matter though?

This whole debate is funny to me - so much time has been spent on trying to codify and define this genre which inherently lacked rules and historical context for performance. A highly subjective starting point for debate!

Besides, people never use genre labels all that accurately I find; even musicians. My favorite is "latin music" - I am awaiting the creation of "north american" music to go along with it!

mr. ho

oh, for those that don't know, here's a sample of our exotica music - the third stream of exotica:

http://orchestrotica.com/album2

You'll hear Shostakovich, Philip Glass, latin jazz, sephadric, albanian drone singing inspiration and more - can it be exotica still?

Great stuff Mr.Ho, BTW I saw you backing up Tikiyaki O at the Mai Kai.

Dude, you're not Chinese !! :D

Kaiwaza, I take very strong exception to the idea that the general public should be trusted to define what Tiki is. VERY...strong...exception.

But if everyone insists it's true, then so be it: trilobites and cart racing are Tiki, and so is Hank Williams.

Mr. Ho, your stuff is pure exotica, completely influenced by the old school, so whatever influences you may have, my 30+ years as a muso tell me this is not exactly some shatteringly new approach. That's intended as compliment BTW. Very nice pure-drop exotica.

So, whether or not you know it or are happy about it: you have internalized and made use of something that does seem after all to be codifiable.

Yes, i did stand in for some guiro/bongo action i think with TYO! Fun guys!

emspace: as far as the rest, for what it's worth, i didn't set out to try to do something different - just set out to do what I do :wink: I have a very small collection of mostly denny and lyman and a few baxter records (and lots of esquivel) - hardly large compared to most music fans here. Most of the original music WAITIKI did and my own group, while different, do not adhere much to the classic exotica I have heard (beyond the instrumentation and desire to take the listener on a story/journey.) Perhaps that alone is enough to define the genre for me!

And i have to say: I haven't heard a lot of oud+vibe+bass flute+bulgarian music with taksim (open solo) rooted in an arabic maqam before - whether called exotica or anything else! So please, point me to some more of this stuff if somebody's doing it as I'd love to hear it :wink:

Mr. Ho

On 2011-10-11 20:34, emspace wrote:
Kaiwaza, I take very strong exception to the idea that the general public should be trusted to define what Tiki is. VERY...strong...exception.

But if everyone insists it's true, then so be it: trilobites and cart racing are Tiki, and so is Hank Williams.

Mr. Ho, your stuff is pure exotica, completely influenced by the old school, so whatever influences you may have, my 30+ years as a muso tell me this is not exactly some shatteringly new approach. That's intended as compliment BTW. Very nice pure-drop exotica.

So, whether or not you know it or are happy about it: you have internalized and made use of something that does seem after all to be codifiable.

I don't remember ever hearing Shakuhachi in exotica before either. But it IS a compliment to the way Mr. Ho incorporated these different instruments so well that it is still unquestionably Exotica.

Ah, so it's snippets of melody from a particular culture or composition, or the selection of a particular instrument, that makes the Mr. Ho sound so different from what Lyman or Baxter or Denny were doing? Give me a break - that's exactly what those guys were doing themselves: pastiche IS exotica.

You guys had better point me to a particular track - I don't hear it. And I've played in Brazilian, Afro-Cuban, reggae, funk, and Celtic bands. I have a music collection that spans everything from Partch to gamelan to ska to jazz to whatever, near-total musical recall within one listen (pure genetic luck) and a mental catalog of reference points spanning 40 years of totally devoted music fanaticism.

Is there really shakuhachi somewhere BTW? I hear a lot of bass flute, common in exotica as well as bossa.

Mr. Ho, as I said: I am not putting you down! You have perfectly recreated both the approach and the sonic ambience of the exotica big names, and made some very fine music as a result.

[ Edited by: emspace 2011-10-12 09:19 ]