Question for Bigbro,or who ever.

on page 98 of BOT,the carved panel with the ,what looks like mother of pearl eyes.about 10' tall.any idea who made this ,where it was made?Were they mass produced for Stephen Crane?thanks TD

that is a maori panel. couln't tell you more than that. sven did OA outfit the kon tiki in portland?

Doublepost

[ Edited by: bigbrotiki on 2005-01-07 14:54 ]

Armet & Davis did this one too. O.A. did a lot of stuff for them and SCA, but SCA also used other people's carvings. The lintel over the door does not look like O.A., so they probably had someone else do that Maori guy too, and I have never seen another one like it.
The BOT pic is actually a blow up of a postcard and shows less than a third of the entrance, which had a long rectangular green awning. The Tiki on the right was a real statue, and the one you are asking about was one of FOUR Maori statue panels underneath the awning (hiding the awning support colums I assume).

Their style makes me think that they actually were done in New Zealand. But who knows? A&D's Louis Armet, who did most of their Polynesian jobs, died in a skiing accident in the 80s. The other man to ask would be George Nakashima, but he just died too.

Where are these panels now? These wouldn't just be tossed...probably ended up on someone's weekand cabin. When did the Portland Kon-Tiki close?

thanks for the info sven. one more question though. are the pua eyes on the BOT carving the traditional shape? all of the maori carvings i've ever seen have round eyes like this one from the hanalei.

does anyone know which is the traditional maori shape?

i dunno when it closed either. maybe one of the NW TCers could help with that.

you wouldn't think that they would dump those carvings but ya never know. all i know is i would love to have one of them.

thank people,very helpful.have you ever seen the panels with 3 figures 2with round eyes 1 in the middle with oval eyes7'x2.5'? TD

TD~ the only places i could point you to are

Oceanic Arts (OA) in whittier, CA. here's the link:
http://www.oceanicarts.net/

gecko
http://www.geckotiki.com/

benzart or basement kahuna
i don't have either ones website link but they are both members here on TC and you could PM them.

these folks are the cream of the crop and the only carvers in the U.S. i've seen doing maori panels. if they can't make it for you they can point you in the right direction for sure.

hope this helps in your search!

From my experience, the round Mother of Pearl eyes are more common in the wallpanel Tikis (of which there are many in a Maori Meeting House), than in the fully 3D carved statues.

But then some of the 100 eyes that seem to glare at you out of the dark wood of the facade of the Ruatepupuke Meeting house at the Chicago Field museum have a slight oval slant to them.

The Maori carving tradition is very varied, going from realistic, tatooed statues to very abstract, spiral-laden birdlike figures.

In Polynesian Pop, the Maori style was used with varying success, for example by Trader Vic as what amounts to the closest example of a logo Tiki for the chain:
The one on The Traders menu on page 90 of the BOT can also be seen in the carved doors of the original San Francisco TV on page 95, the Tiki stem glass on the same page, the cufflinks on page 93, and again a menu on page 89.
The Kona Kai logo Tiki (p.54 and 143) bears an uncanny resemblance, probably both are taken from the same Maori Art book.

That TV Tiki design was also varied for a multi restaurant mug seen near the spine off page 177, and as one of the three faces on the Polynesia mug on the same page.

A less successful attempt at Maori style (but all the more Pop because of it) was the entrance fountain at the Kahiki (p. 128).

Then there is the biggy that Ed Crissman did for O.A. on p. 244 (and it's smaller versions for the Chicago Kona Kai on page 4 and 5 of Tiki Quest).

The most radical rendition of Maori style might the fairly common Orchids mug on page 13 of Tiki Quest, authentic to the degree that it is considered un-Tiki by some.

:o Boy, once I get going on a rainy day....

[ Edited by: bigbrotiki on 2005-01-09 10:57 ]

BigBro, seems to know Best as usual.
Here a fw pic's I picked up online and if you canblow them up you will see most of the eyes are round in these carvings.



And I have a feeling These pictures are Very authentic maori carvings..

thanks for the input bro and ben! i thought that would be the case since that is the way that leroy carves them.

so is guess my question is: is the one in BOT from a kiwi or an american carver?

My personal opinion is they are not done by a Maori carver. It is to contrived and doesn't have artistic flow that a Nz piece would have. Look how the Shoulder spirals are recessed into that smoothe, perfect rim. It is too detatched to be authentic.

are we still talking about page 98 of BOT? what about the tounge and other anatomical correct feature? TD

[ Edited by: TIKI DAVID on 2005-01-07 19:36 ]

Yes I was talking about the piece on pg 98 of BOT. there are a lot of "Correct features, but they just don't all fit together correctly. See how the Spirals on the shoulders both go in the same direction? Look at the Black and white I uploaded. The Arms flow from the shoulder spiral which flows from the chest and both in opposite directions. The tongue also is too long. skinny and has no embellishment.
Again, this is My opinion, but I'm quite sure now that I have looked at it closer.

I have been told that is likely S.C.A.used carvings that wre machine made.wouldnt that mean alot of repation.in all the panels i have (including the one on page 98 of BOT )from KON TIKI CLEVELANDeach one is a little(some cases alot ) different.is that likely with machine made? TD

The four at the Kon-Tiki Portland are all different, so not machine carved. The Islands San Diego panels are so identical, they must have been machine carved (by O.A.?, for The Luau?), traced from an original. The machine to do that is a lathe (?spelling?), it traces the lines of an original sculpture and exactly translates them onto soandso many copies. Not a cheap process either nowadays, according to O.A.

Benzart, the first photo (of the meeting house interior) is from the one in my hometown's anthropolgy museum. Rauru is the most amazing meeting house standing outside of New Zealand, it was officialy blessed by Maori elders to be in this location. Rauru has an interesting history, it was immediately sold after it's completion, because the young chief who had it built laughed off the taboo of smoking in it while it was being constructed. But he lost his sense of humor after three consecutive wifes died on him, and got rid of it (it took that many to convince him it was a bad luck pad!)

It kind of became Hamburg's first Tiki Lounge when the British Allied Forces command turned it into their officer's club for a while right after World War II. My mom had a romantic love affair with the officer in charge of the local BBC. Early influences...

Check out the 3rd panel from the left, it is a fairly modern, more literal interpretation of the usual "small Tiki betwen the legs= birth" carving, the top figure is female, but where does the bottom figure have it's head? :0

Yes, very possibly and probable. The way the machined pieces work is there is a master which is secured into a Router duplicarving machine. it will duplicate anywhere from 1 to a dozen pieces depending on the machine. for each piece to be duplicated on the machine, there is a router connected to an arm system that attatches to a stylus . As the stylus is moved across the Master, the rputers follow ,taking away wood so that what is left is a rough copy of the master. The demensions are all accurate but there is no detail. The piece is basically at the stage of roughing out which is the last stage before smoothing and detail are added. That part is done by hand so the end product will actually have a hand carved look but most of the work wil have been done by the machine.
Like the picture posted by Thedrunkenhat of the Hanalei pieces, they are all Identical in size and shape as if they were cut from the same pattern and finished by 2 or 3 individual artists working for the company.
The maoris had no patterns and were carving from memory and creating pieces for an individual story or record. In eaach of the carvings, the spirals and markings told part of the story and all fit together to form the whole page so to speak.. I hope this helps.

BigBro, you and I were answering the last post here at the same time and you posted yours first. I do not know the history as you do and I judge these purely from an artists view point while your historical view is dead on and validates some of my thoughts. Thanks
The "birthed figure ahs not been totally born yet?

[ Edited by: Benzart on 2005-01-09 11:06 ]

On 2005-01-09 11:02, Benzart wrote:

The "birthed figure" has not been totally born yet?

Yup!

Here are the ones at Omni Hut; for what its worth, I've always read (and I think Polly told me) that they were authentic Maori.

They may be but I don't think so.

Wow they are great! Also BECAUSE they are not authentic, of course. You ask any oldtimer that has a Tiki bar where their Tikis are from, and they ALWAYS hail from "The Islands". Some owners really think so, others have repeated the shanty for so many decdades that they believe it now themselves. It was the way of the times.

These carvings faces are too uneven and naive. The Maori are the only Polynesians that have always maintained an unbroken tradition of carving schools, that's why even after first contact their craftsmanship remained high.

Looked at them again...hmmmm, they could've been done by a Maori who was just bad with heads, cause those spirals are superb!

[ Edited by: bigbrotiki on 2005-01-11 23:54 ]

What about carvings made by Maoris in training? Sort of like the Maori carving school equivalent of the crappy wood shop birdhouse... maybe they all end up in their parents' attics, but these are a few that made it stateside....

That is always a possibility, but these look like they were done on plywood and I doubt the
maoris would use that.

On 2005-01-11 23:50, bigbrotiki wrote:
You ask any oldtimer that has a Tiki bar where their Tikis are from, and they ALWAYS hail from "The Islands". Some owners really think so, others have repeated the shanty for so many decdades that they believe it now themselves. It was the way of the times.

The man who originally owned my Witco bar said it was hand-carved in Hawaii. I'm sure the story improved the taste of the Mai-Tai's he served his guests.

On 2005-01-12 07:45, Benzart wrote:
That is always a possibility, but these look like they were done on plywood and I doubt the maoris would use that.

But no!- Can't you see these are from the core of the rare hapa haole plywood tree? Only found in New Zealand mountain valleys, where wild roses grow, at dusk, if in the company of...

Man, if that's really plywood, they would make for a great "Before" and "After" Tiki testimony:

Show a standard 4x8 blond piece of plywood under the header "BEFORE (being inspired by) Tiki:", and then one of those panels next to it, under "AFTER Tiki:".

Testimony: "I was like this unhewn piece of lumber before the spirit of Tiki went through me, and now, especially after many Mai Tais, these swirls appear, and..." (anyone wanna continue?)

Arrgh, but don't stumble into UZUMAKI territory ;(

[ Edited by: bigbrotiki on 2005-01-12 17:40 ]

"The Maori Chief, who found me washed up on the beach, transformed me to this beautiful authentic house panel for his own meeting house where I was eventually stolen and sent to the good ol' USA"

Man o Man, Only if my Grandfather was alive. He did the first Luau that Steve Crane had. He had a gift shop in it also and they were tight. All the secrets would be not. But, they are. Hmmmmmmmmmm... Who knows? I have a guest list from the Luau with a few "Hollywood Sig.s" on it but there is nothing about who carved the Moai. Hmmmmm....

Now , if you had shown me this panel, I would have had to look long and hard to know it wasn't authentic

Of course we know it came from basement Kahuna, but it is awful good.

[ Edited by: Benzart on 2005-01-13 21:41 ]

SO,i have 2 panels 7'x2.5' each have 3 figures with mother of pearl eyes,out streched arms and lots of swirls.NO two features match anywhere on them or from panel to panel. also a panel identical to page 98 of BOT,(pic in BOT not clear enough match details)Is it safe to say they were NOT done by a machine?same is true of the other panels6"x various lenths(6'to 3'long)no 2 the same.there are pics somewhere on TC but i'm to techno stupid to put them here,sorry.thanks TD

TD, tell me where they are and I'll add them in here. I'd like to see them.You never know, you may end up with an authentic Maori panel?? Thanks.

I think under "repro witco bar"in collecting tiki

Did ALL of S C A places look alike ,or did he use differnt look, styles,cavers, at each place? TD

Are these the SCA Panels you were talking about?

Hard to tell if these were done by machine. Remember the duplicarver puts pou rough pieces that need to be finished with all the fine detail. If the main objects are close to identical with different detail then they were done by machine and finished by hand. Many of the mass produced carvings were done by one person, one at a time. I have had orders for multiples of the same carving and you just use a pattern and they all come out pretty close.
Hope this helps.

are we sure the pic on page 98 of BOT is KON TIKI portland?

I'm not, but BigBro would know

On 2005-01-17 14:25, TIKI DAVID wrote:
are we sure the pic on page 98 of BOT is KON TIKI portland?

ExCUSE me !!?

...oh no, I just checked, that's actually Joe DiMagggio and Cyd Charisse in front of the Pago Pago in Frankfurt.

Well....,attitude? the reason i ask is ,i have everything in that pic.The 10' panel,the trim around the doors,the doors,the tiki and a panel with weapons.and they all came from KON-TIKI Cleveland.thats why i was asking about "mass produced "or maybe the pic on pg.98 might be a file photo something like that for SCA?

What I have been trying to say is they are most likley mass produced. Companies produce tropical decorations and carvings for bars and restraunts including national chains. They may have 10 carvers working for them turning out multiple orders, dozens at a time. A Lot of the carvings Start on a duplicator machine and are finished by hand. None will look Identical but all will be generally the same size, same dimensions to fit architectual measurments as designed by the architect. Most All pieces from the big bars Were Mass Produced! If the mass produced art was not available, the authentic art would have been cost prohibitive. Not to say some bars didn't end up with 1 or 2 sweet authentic pieces though. Search on line for Authentic maori art or Hawiian art and once you see the real stuff, you begin to get the picture. The Commercial stuff was Very good and most of the time represented as authentic(not from sellers)America grew up thinking a Leroy was an Authentic polynesian Tiki and it really was in so many ways even if it wasn't carved by the local witch doctor down by the beach. Enjoy and Love your Loot. It is great, you have some very nice pieces. Don't sell is for anything but what it is. mass produced Authentic Tiki!

On 2005-01-17 21:48, bigbrotiki wrote:
...oh no, I just checked, that's actually Joe DiMagggio and Cyd Charisse in front of the Pago Pago in Frankfurt.

I always thought as much, but didn't want to say so. :wink: