UPDATE: Beyond and Bilge Talkback Topic

This is a talkback topic for the Beyond and Bilge are now for Grand Members only announcement. Please share your comments here.

Please take note: Beyond Tiki and Bilge are again available to everyone, regardless of their GM status.

I'm sorry if this caused anyone grief.

I have more detailed thoughts here:

http://www.tikicentral.com/viewtopic.php?topic=16321&forum=1&start=150#184014

~Hanford

[ Edited by: hanford_lemoore 2005-09-02 17:40 ]

[ Edited by: hanford_lemoore 2005-09-02 22:18 ]

[ Edited by: hanford_lemoore 2005-09-02 22:19 ]

I think you are completely justified in doing this, simply because this group should be mostly about tiki, and it costs money to run this. So if folks want to stray from the topic they should make the small contribution to keep this web site going by becoming Grand Members.

I support your decision Hanford.

Hanford:
I'll support any decision you make as well, but what are the reasons for doing this?

Here's the announcement:

http://www.tikicentral.com/viewtopic.php?topic=16322&forum=1

I also support your decision. Once I pay off my speeding ticket I will send some funds to become a grand member.

I think that some of the topics have gotten out of hand. But there are those that are informative and worthwhile
(like the Birth of someones child , Pablus' health blog, etc..). Those I will miss for the time being.

I have met some really nice people who share other intrest with me other than tiki and I have learned alot about other topics . Its sad to me that it has been to be changed for all due to the actions of some.

I hope that those who had issues with the ongoings in beyond and bilge were not contributing to the silliness.

Just my opinion.

[ Edited by: rodeotiki 2005-08-30 19:05 ]

I agree with what the Jab said basically, but I do have some reservations. One thought that occurs to me is:

Why not make Beyond and Bilge readable but not postable to non-Grand Members? I find most all the TC forums entertaining and interesting, generally speaking, but, much as I love tiki stuff, some of the funniest threads have been in Beyond and Bilge. And frankly, a good laugh is one of the most tempting reasons, for me personally anyway, to upgrade to "grand" status. (I admit it! I know it should be for idealistically tikified reasons only but I am imperfect.)

So in other words, why remove one more enticement to make Grand Membership more attractive to folks? If they can't read it, they won't know what they're missing.

Oh, and pertaining to the more non-silly nature of Beyond Tiki as opposed to Bilge specifically, I feel more strongly about Beyond Tiki being at least partially open for other reasons. Right now, for instance, people are discussing hurricane issues, worries about involved TC members, and relief ideas on that forum. I don't mean to sound prissy, but something as important as that might be better off on a semi-open forum, don't you think? Also I know "Beyond" has featured that sort of thread before, too...

Thanks for the talkback forum, Hanford! As always, we appreciate all you do here--very much!!

While I support the idea of Grand Membership, I oppose this change.

By changing access in piecemeal fashion like this, it gives the impression of the creeping elimination of "free" access" for other forums in the future.

Looked at like we would look at any other entity, my first thought was, "Beyond Tiki and Bilge now, General Discussion later."

This change creates an impression that the carpet is slowly being rolled up.

I would rather the whole site require a membership fee than to create an atmosphere of selective admission.

That being said, I will continue to contribute the cost of membership, and would be willing to pay an additional fee to help defray the cost of keeping Beyond Tiki and Bilge free for all to particpiate in.

I totally support you, Hanford and I will continue to support TC. I've had so much fun here over the years, and TC has only gotten better and better.

Grand Memberships has its privileges!

I am going to hold off on replying to everyone's comments here until there's more comments, but I want to jump in quickly and point out that this is NOT about getting more Grand Memberships. It's basically about purposely dissuading people who aren't really into Tiki from being here.

[ Edited by: hanford_lemoore 2005-08-30 18:58 ]

I think it's a GRAND idea :P

On 2005-08-30 18:57, hanford_lemoore wrote:
I am going to hold off on replying to everyone's comments here until there's more comments, but I want to jump in quickly and point out that this is NOT about getting more Grand Memberships. It's basically about purposely dissuading people who aren't really into Tiki from being here.

In that case, I retract my sense of forboding!

I think it's a good idea too. There are some cool threads that surface in those forums, but I can imagine the bandwidth suck it creates. I guess I have to pony up for the Grand Membership so I can see the baby pictures...

Aw, Hanford, I just want you to be rich :)

Seriously, though, I wasn't thinking in terms of just getting more Grand memberships, that is, in the sense of quantity over quality.

I was feeling that, when someone makes a financial commitment to something, they tend to only do it if they are really interested to begin with, and then take it more seriously and responsibly afterwards than if it's free. But I simply feel it's best to let them see as much of the full 'deal' they're contemplating as possible before they decide to make that investment.

I support the policy.

What about getting posts to those forums via Email? I noticed that one I sent to Beyond Tiki (after the policy change) came to me via Email, which is not an option for "Grand Ceremonial Forum..." posts.

Is this because you haven't gotten around to changing it (making them unavail. via Email)?

Or, will they continue to be available for view via Email, but non-Grand Members won't be able to actually go to the thread, nor join the discussion?

I'm thinking the former...

Why create the forums if they're going to be severly curtained?Tiki is wonderful,but people DO have other thoughts other than tiki,and would like to share them with others.Online forums are,of course,for specific topics,but most of us are multifaceted,and have other things to say.I don't agree with this decision.

On 2005-08-30 19:14, docwoods wrote:
Why create the forums if they're going to be severly curtained?Tiki is wonderful,but people DO have other thoughts other than tiki,and would like to share them with others.Online forums are,of course,for specific topics,but most of us are multifaceted,and have other things to say.I don't agree with this decision.

if you read hl's announcement, he addresses your concerns:
http://www.tikicentral.com/viewtopic.php?topic=16322&forum=1

i think this is a good idea (my only gripe is that now i gotta log in to read all the threads - no big deal).

i have all sorts of non-tiki thoughts and interests and find that there are certainly plenty of other online forums to discuss them.

i personally haven't noticed any problems w/ the beyond & bilge forums, but it's been my experience over the years that hl runs a tight ship & really listens to the concerns of others. i don't think his decision was made casually & i don't think it will inhibit the free flow of info about all things tiki.

If "Beyond" were chock full of informative pop-culture threads the limiting of its access might be more annoying. On the other hand, Grand Membership is cheap and easy to get and Tiki Central is the tops in pop culture bulletin board type sites (or whatever this is). And it'll save me time not going there.*

My only concern is that the main forum will now be full of even more off topic, "Happy Birthday", and current event type threads. I hope with the new limited access that there will be greater sifting of the various Tiki threads by the moderators. With access to "Beyond" being for members only it seems that all personal type posts should be there, leaving the main forum for discussion of Tiki, Tiki, and Tiki.

*For the record, I'm a a silent member of TC. I paid through a non-TC name. I only mention this so my comments have at least the weight of 24 bucks behind it.

My fear is that Beyond and Bilge topics that were free will now end up with the tiki topics.
Policing that will be difficult.
People who don't pay attention or care, will post non-tiki subjects for free where they don't belong.
Hopefully a few rotten apples won't spoil the stew...or a stitch in time...oh, never mind.

Damn-it I have to be a grand member to make drunken posts!! Oh wait, I am a grand member. And I'm drunk- I better move it over to bilge. WTF??? No big deal Hanford!!!
Love,
Spermy

[ Edited by: Monkeyman 2005-09-01 19:40 ]

I geneally support the idea. Checking my posts, I find that I'm a Bilger and a Tiki Events frequenter - but I like the balance of all the forums. I read most everything. I'm not going anywhere no matter what. The TC ohana is like my second family or my second parish. Dysfunctional, strange, talented, temperamental and so very human.

While I am indifferent on Hanfords decision, I'll stick by his actions. After all he created this board for us, the tiki collectors. He didn't have to, but I believe he wanted others who share his passion for tiki and polynesia with others like him.

As you can tell, by this date I am not a grand member. It's not b/c I oppose paying for the privalage (I don't), I haven't had the extra cash on my credit cards to do it. I'll go back and read the info on becoming a member in a moment. Hopefully PP is accepted. But personally I have enrolled in a credit counciling service so my money is tight. I'm not pan-handleing, just stating my case.

I mentioned that, because Beyond & Bilge is a fun place to go see what other things member are into, and I've had fun posting there. If I am barred b/c I haven't the membership then so be it. I'll rejoin the conversations when I get the extra scratch. I do want to add (since I read a few comments about it) if someone wishes me happy b-day, PM me or something (If non members cannot read the posts). I'd hate to come off as a prude and not saying thanks. I say that also b/c my b-day is coming up fast if anyone actually cares to know.

Now where am I going with this? I don't know... oh, yeah I do. No wait. I don't. I better get some extra scratch so I can go everywhere on this site.

Do what you think is in the best interest for the community, web kahuna.

On 2005-08-30 18:49, tikivixen wrote:
Why not make Beyond and Bilge readable but not postable to non-Grand Members? I find most all the TC forums entertaining and interesting, generally speaking, but, much as I love tiki stuff, some of the funniest threads have been in Beyond and Bilge. And frankly, a good laugh is one of the most tempting reasons, for me personally anyway, to upgrade to "grand" status. (I admit it! I know it should be for idealistically tikified reasons only but I am imperfect.)

I think that's a good compromise. Also I won't have to log in every time I check Tiki Central for new posts.

Maybe there could also be another Bilge open to every one, but have the threads "expire" by either having them lock or disappear after a set time.

[ Edited by: filslash 2008-09-15 15:01 ]

I dunno, I think Beyond and Bilge added a bit of soul to TC. It helped put a more personal face to the people who post here. I think they add a dimension that most other boards lack.

Originally I rarely looked at Bilge. But it helped flesh out people in a way that posts just about Tiki could ever do.

I understand the problems of bandwidth. Trust me I do. Maybe not in the code intensive way that you do, but I do.

I also wonder if maybe the Tiki-Centric portions should be the ones we pay for, as charging people to post in Bilge and Beyond might infer that they are where the "cool kids" hang out. Good and bad roads there.

But hey, I'll be around. Thought you could be rid of me ( and my dyslexic posts ) that easily?

Tiki Gardener
exotic-tiki-gardens.com

Im not a grand member, but it is something I am apsiring to when the wallet fattens up a bit. Will I still hang around cause I cant get into beyond and Bilge? Hell yeh! People come for the tiki and stay for the community. (I did anyway)

The newcomers will still come for the tiki stuff. They wont go "what, no forum to post pics of my cat wearing a party hat? I'm out of here!" The people who really want to be part of the TC ohana will cough up the folding to join, if they really want to.

Do it Hanford! Your on the right course captain.

The KKK took my baby away!!!
You can now nail all the old posters.

I'd become a grand member if I didn't have to have that Damn STAR next to my name!!! Why can't it just say Grand Member??? Unless h&H Lamfordlemmoremichelle, yous plan on having red next year then I'd have to pay up for 3 years and go with the Rasta, Green, Gold and Red! Stripes, not stars!! Yah Mon!! Whos says tiki and carribean can't be mixed.............where does the rum come from??

Also, more Ads !!!!! All over the screen!! There's money in advertising........i've heard.

p.s. I'm affraid of stars. Arrrrrrrrr!!!

I still haven't formed an opinion about Hanford's decision to lock beyond tiki and bilge but I just wanted to take this opportunity to apologize to all those who have been subjected to my insatiable urges to contribute to Photo Association and Vitamin C-Serpents... I'm addicted and I'm reaching out for help! I can't stop contributing to these inane/useless/uninformative/time-wasting topics!! Oh god what have I done to myself... what have I become?! :cry:

I am with Bamboo Ben on this!!!! Keepin it Real!!!

On 2005-08-30 21:41, The Sperm Whale wrote:
I am with Bamboo Ben on this!!!! Keepin it Real!!!

I'm covered with Sperm!!!!

Being a noobie I decided to chime in here. I basically came here to see if I could find some inside info on the goings on at the Hukilau, that I'll be attending for the 1st time ever. I will be staying with family so there wasn't really anything there for me. However, I loved seeing the fantastic pictures of tikis, tiki bars, etc. and getting info on how to make and find things tiki, recipes and music. I was one of those idiots on the Bilge. I had great fun....sorry, heehee. It seemed that when I did post anywhere else hardly anyone ever responded. I'm not complaining, I realized that I didn't really have anything good to contribute. Hell, I thought you all would be interested in tiki clings for your windows for god's sake. What did I know?! I had no idea what this site was about - meaning serious tiki people that are way talented and have a real relationship with each other and the tiki. I think that is awesome. I personally am interested in new tiki stuff - at affordable prices. My hats off to all of you for your passion and your knowledge. I can tell you all enjoy it and have such fun sharing. From what I've read Hanford is 'the man'. I hear such respect for him from you all. Seems he started all this. I'm perfectly happy being able to read about, get info about and see pictures about tiki related things. Whatever Hanford and the members decide, I hope works for you. Thanks for letting me join and get some great ideas for the tiki bar we'll be building in the future. I believe I've gone on long enuf....
Edit: One more thing - if non-members are barred from the 2 forums I will miss the great 'out loud' laughs I had reading some of those posts. What a clever, witty and entertaining bunch!

Have a drink on me...

[ Edited by: codelisa 2005-08-30 23:27 ]

Hanford started this fourm, he is responsible for the cost each month, but as he said it is not about the money, however,albeit Hanford started this, the TC members ARE TiKi Central, What He started became a community, not just someplace to post about TiKi, Look what happened when "one of our own" was sick, like Stentiki, or when Benzart was ill and how about Jade Tiki lost somewhere in Louisiana? This is bigger than Hanford now, It has a life of its own. Another thought, My wife and I went to the art show at the Lucky Tiki Sunday night, I went mostly to meet up with fellow TCers. We connected with Father TiKi and will probably have a life long friendship. What other sites can claim that? If its not about the $$ then let it go, allow the site to be what ever it will be, within reason of course. So what if someone is off course, that does not last long, I posted some real numb skull posts at the start, not knowing what protocol is, so let those who are "Babes-in-TiKi learn the ropes and see who we are on all sides, not just the TiKi side. Hanford, I emailed you and asked about your name, you apperently did not want to answer that and just ignored me, do that with the inappropriate post as well. I am going to sign up as a Grand Member because I want total access, but it kinda bugs me.

Hey, lets cancel Christmas, too.

Bah Humbug!

well I'm bummed.

I can't afford a membership (as much as I'd love to have one) .. as I'm a starving student for the next while.. I admit I posted more in the bilge area than in the others recently .. mostly because it seemed that (as Codelisa noticed as well) when I tried chiming in, in other areas no one really noticed.. there's a tight-knit bunch of people here, which is awesome, but if you're not at a point where everyone knows who you are it's difficult to get past the polite 'nice to see you here' stuff and become involved in the discussions.. people tend to skim over responses from people they don't already know..

I've always READ waaay more than I've posted.. mainly because I'll be the first to admit I'm no expert, and I'm not going to make an ass of myself responding to threads that I know nothing about.. (which I'm sure everyone is grateful for) and I have felt at times people can be a little condescending to those of us who are still getting to know everything. I'm here to learn (and drool over people's stuff and bars) but that includes not only about Tiki related things, but about the PEOPLE who are into Tiki related things (which honestly will always be more interesting than any inanimate object could ever be IMO)

anyway.. I just found bilge and beyond a great place where you could (as others have pointed out) get to know people and their sense of humour etc etc a bit better. I was hoping this would translate (eventually) to feeling more comfortable posting in other more "tiki" related areas (with people not being as quick to judge if you inadvertently say something stupid heh. :wink: )

I guess I just kinda feel like I'm in high school again and the "cool" clique is taking another step in separating themselves from the rest of us losers who don't have enough money to keep up.. (I realise that this is not the way the move was intended to come across)

I also don't really understand why people were complaining about those areas.. it's a message board.. if you don't like the topic isn't the usual course of action just.. not to read? and if threads are taking up too much bandwidth or space or whatever.. can't the moderator just say.. "hey guys this is taking up a lot of space, can we put a hold on these kinds of threads?" and then delete them? Or after 2 weeks or so delete the threads in those "time wasting" forums as there's probably nothing in them that people will bother searching for anyway..

At any rate.. I didn't make this site, I just enjoy it..and I thank you for creating it in the first place! so I respect your decision even if I don't fully understand it (and yes I did read the reasons) I'll still kick around.. but probably more in a lurking capacity :)

anyhoo.. that's my 2cents..

Based on feedback we've gotten from many longstanding tikiphiles, we want to take steps to re-emphasize the Tiki part of Tiki Central. This is one of the actions we're taking in that direction, and it's great to hear that so many of you are enthusiastic about this decision. For those of you who aren't, I want to point out that this is not about taking Bilge and Beyond away -- they've not gone away, not any more than the Caliente Tropics goes away when Oasis occurs there -- this is about taking steps to correct the balance of signal to noise in the content here. We think it's worth a try.

We will continue to keep off-topic posts out of the tiki part of the forums. We'll have to try handling some situations differently than we might have in the past, and we'll likely learn that some approaches work better than others; we hope you'll bear with us as we chart the course, and continue to use U-Mod to steer us a bit.

Happy Birthday to Buddy Hackett born this day in 1924. Way to go Buddy!

On 2005-08-31 02:03, pappythesailor wrote:
Happy Birthday to Buddy Hackett born this day in 1924. Way to go Buddy!

Come on. Please don't do that.

And another thing...That "Happy Birthday Buddy Hackett" post above was most likely made as a poke at "Beyond" being open to GMs only but it's a good example of my main irritation with non-Tiki content on Tiki Central: Threads that get taken over by off topic posts, people attempting to out ha-ha each other, links to unrelated sites, or endless inside jokes.

If the limiting of access to "Beyond""...is an attempt to get Tiki Central's focus even more on Tiki..." and to dissuade those members who really aren't so Tiki focused it would seem that keeping the topic threads on topic would be a big step towards that. Of course we're dealing with humans and those damned creatures have a tendency to not follow rigid guidelines.

On 2005-08-31 02:31, hanford_lemoore wrote:

On 2005-08-31 02:03, pappythesailor wrote:
Happy Birthday to Buddy Hackett born this day in 1924. Way to go Buddy!

Come on. Please don't do that.

Just kiddin'. As soon as the Wahine gets over bill from this year's luau, I was gonna become a Grand Member anyway.

I'm not really sure what to make of this, I can't make a true stand for one side or the other. I certainly see what Hanford is trying to accomplish, but at the same time, seeing as I can't afford the Membership, it kinda pisses me off. Believe me, I would buy the membership, and could easily afford it a month at a time, but I hate that I need to come up with it all at once. Same thing with Ooga-Mooga. Cheap enough for a month, but not when you have to pay for a whole block in advance. It was one thing that there was a Members Only Room, but now after this, Posts which where once yours, are now just gone! Are they still included in the thread? If they are still intact, doesn't it seem a bit off that the original poster can't respond or stand behind an earlier statement if the thread should ever be brought back to the top?
I don't suppose there is a compromise to this situation, but I thought I would just offer up another idea. I also belong to a Car Forum with a pretty popular "Off-Topic" Forum. But to keep it a bit cleaner you have to log in to even view it. Obviously anyone can just quickly signup & enter for free, but I still think it keeps a bit of the riff-raff out.
But hey, maybe I'll have a banner week on eBay with my castings. A Grand Membership will be mine! Oh Yes, It will be mine!

I am all for this as I think Hanford's logic is correct that this forum should be mainly about tiki, and the off topic sections just kind of grew out of the comradery that naturally occured. If you're really committed to this community, why not become a member?

A few people have indicated that they don't feel that they're a real part of the "in group". I felt that way at first, but I just got in there and posted, and I have gotten great responses and feel accepted. I think there will always be different levels friendships, to some extent but that is just human nature. If you live in southern CA or San Fran and are able to get together in person with people fromthe forum, it is just natural that there will be a closer bond. Nothing wrong with that. I don't feel there is an attempt to be cliquey or exclusive. Don't be intimidated.

[ Edited by: Swanky 2005-09-02 20:53 ]

quote "... TC was created for the sharing of Tiki information, and there was no need for an off-topic forum because no one knew each other. However after friendships developed, we wanted to share non-tiki stuff with each other. Beyond and Bilge will continue to be just for that reason: to let friends share non-tiki information with other friends. I encourage the continued use of these forums..."

...only grand members can be friends now... or, in order to maintain existing & foster new friendships, one must become a grand member... all others must be banished to the cornfields... and/or, leave tc and return to strictly rockabilly, kiss & jimmy buff-it forums elsewhere... yes / no...

... if one can prove a significant amount of community volunteer work, can this then be used as entry into grand membership...

... a few queries...

... in any case, do whatever it takes...

[ Edited by: Monkeyman 2005-09-01 19:40 ]

I see a lot of non tiki conversation going on in Tiki Shout. Perhaps that too should only be visible and accessible to Grand Members.

Other related changes I've noticed:

When you look up a member profile and look at the "view posts by this user", it now only lists posts that are in the "on topic" forums.

This makes it real easy to see how much noise you or others have created. For instance my user profile shows 449 posts but the "view posts by this user" only lists 247. Therefore 202 of my posts have been off topic. Yikes!

I thought it would be fun to see what percentage of Tiki_Bong's posts were off topic but it looks like he is no longer listed as a member.???

Additionally, the search function no longer includes "off topic" forums. Personally I think at least Beyond Tiki should be searchable

On 2005-08-30 19:32, Swanky wrote:
I hate it. but, here I am, wanting to refer to what Bosko posted about preserving my Witco piece and I can't see it now.

I was honored to see that Bosko himself answered the question because I wanted to know too. I would have thanked Bosko but isn't impolite to "take over" someone elses question. I was also surprised to see that Swanky didn't thank Bosko and now I know why. BTW don't do anything to the wood, simply enjoy the history on it.

[ Edited by: hanford_lemoore - fixed bb code - 2005-08-31 13:28 ]