UPDATE: Beyond and Bilge Talkback Topic

I personally don't like the change.

But I'm still going to pay the clams, not because I have to, but because it's the right thing to do. And I'm always right. Just ask me.

I hate the stars too, btw. Can't you have a coconut or a tiki head or a uke or something? Even a Monopoly hat would be better than a star.

And another thing... I think the site should smell like FRESH MINT!

There, I've used my measure of complaining for the whole month.
I should be good until I start nagging about Hukilau and how lame it is that I'm not jamming with every band there.

people are bringing up a good point about access to previous posts.

maybe i wasn't paying attention, but i don't remember being warned that beyond & bilge were going to be members only areas.

could you provide a few weeks for folks to wind down threads etc?

Well, I'm back to being fully opposed.

I guess the overriding control issue is a bit of a turn-off, as well. This seems way too neurotic to be diagnosing a "problem" that doesn't have any obvious symptom.

Tiki regimentation is not very Tiki, either. It's like a goth site allowing only goth talk, and if a goth wants to chat with another goth about something that's not goth, then they have to pay extra. It would make more sense to require a membership to talk Tiki rather than to interract in an Off Topic forum.

The site is for people who are interested in Tiki, AMONG OTHER THINGS. If their are people who are ONLY interested in Tiki 100% of their time and feel threatened, oppressed, or irritated by Off Topic conversations or topics, then there is always the universal availability of "not going there" for them to take advantage of. Off Topic and Bilge (why we need both is another discussion) are a natural outlet for Tiki-philes to continue to learn more about each other - which is good for Tiki.

So, if this place is going all OCD about being more Tiki demanding, then do away with the damn Off Topic and Bilge forums, altogether and be done with it.

Just have to say it and please don't kick me off: the Nazis invaded Poland in the wee hours of Aug. 31st and Sept.1st 1939. Blitzkrieg.

I guess I've been around a pretty long time, including the yahoo days, but I don't understand the concept that now TC has transformed into something that's "owned" by the community. As far as I'm concerned, any change that Hanford (and Humuhumu?) want to make is fine with me, especially considering how it's always done with an ear to community feedback. But I also don't really understand the complaints that are apparently coming in about TC getting offtopic. As Velvet Ruby points out, people can easily customize their own experience here, by just choosing what topics to read.

Actually, it'd be fine with me if the whole thing required Grand membership. I know no one was even proposing that, and it wasn't Hanford's objective anyway, but it's just an example. It's reasonable for people to choose not to pay for Grand membership, but really it's a choice. It's pretty hard to seriously make the case that one can't budget $20 in a year, especially considering that we're talking about users who have access to computers, the internet, and the spare time to be interested in idle/idol pursuits.

Two more comments... Since I still mainly read TC by email though (what am I, completely nuts?), it sure would be nice if Beyond could still be sent by email. Also, I thought tikivixen's suggestion made a lot of sense - if Beyond and Bilge were read-only for everyone and Grand-only for posting, that seems to solve the problem.

-Randy

Rather than repeating reasons already mentioned, I'll just say I disagree with this decision.

Josh
http://www.whollycatsband.com

On 2005-08-30 17:55, hanford_lemoore wrote:
Please share your comments here.

To me, what this means is that the annoying off-topic (and worse) messages that are the reason behind this change will now just be in the Main Discussion Area. Related thing: I expect I'll stop bothering to use U-Moderate.

If legitimate tangential posts will now go into Beyond Tiki after this, well, I won't be able to see those worthwhile posts (or add anything to the discussions), so that's a minus too.

But in the end, I think Hanford should be able to do whatever he wants.

Erika
Non-Grand Member

On 2005-08-31 09:56, aquarj wrote:
Also, I thought tikivixen's suggestion made a lot of sense - if Beyond and Bilge were read-only for everyone and Grand-only for posting, that seems to solve the problem.

-Randy

I agree. In my opinion, this would be the most sensible approach. Who knows, it might even spawn more Grand Members.
The current option will only create some short term animosity. Not by me though as I'm already a Grand Member!

On 2005-08-31 08:25, Hakalugi wrote:

I thought it would be fun to see what percentage of Tiki_Bong's posts were off topic but it looks like he is no longer listed as a member.???

I take this back. I guess he is still listed as a member but it now shows that his posts are "0".

I'm with all of you who enjoy Beyond Tiki and Bilge. I like those forums just as much as the other forums. But they're not going away, they just won't be there for non-contributors.

I agree with those of you who said that some members may post off-topic in the main discussion area more often now. But that just means we need to use the U-Mod feature more and request that those off-topic posts be moved or deleted, no matter how entertaining they might be.

I have the utmost respect for Hanford (& Humuhumu) and I support this decision. I can't imagine the amount of time and money that must go into the 'behind the scene' maintenance of this site. Sometimes changes have to be made to keep Tiki Central on track and I think this shows that it is a well managed site.
I too enjoy Bilge & Beyond as light entertainment and a venue to see the other side of TC members but ultimately, we're all here for the love of Tiki. I do like some of the suggestions like 'read only' and 'topics that expire' and I'm sure they're being considered.
I'm getting my Grand Membership today, not so I can access Beyond & Bilge forums but because I have benefitted alot from TC since I joined 3 months ago and it's time to give something back.
Thanks again for all your hard work Hanford & Humuhumu, I'm sure it's not easy!

Bilge and Beyond were created to keep kept the off-topic posts out of the main forums. That worked. Plus, they turned out to be quite amusing, and occasionally even informative.

Now that they are only for grand members, I think you will find the original issue that caused them to be created in the first place will just arise again - off topic posts will begin appearing in the main forum. Which will then have to be dealt with in some way (moved, chided, deleted, or what have you).

The way I see it is this: It's more work for the mods, less fun for the people.

• Comrade Jane

On 2005-08-31 11:00, tikifish wrote:

Now that they are only for grand members, I think you will find the original issue that caused them to be created in the first place will just arise again - off topic posts will begin appearing in the main forum. Which will then have to be dealt with in some way (moved, chided, deleted, or what have you).

... in that event, have double grand membership, triple grand membership, etc,...

...switch availability of these forums to double grand membership ($48+/year) only... keep whittling down to those who are only the most hardcore tiki enthusiasts, monied and able to key in type while loaded... this would, as time passes, mine only the purest tikimon & tikigal...

...those few, however, may grow bored of each other, desire other attitudes and input (in bilge, known as spew) and subsequently open new forums to allow more or less tikified drunks in... spawning what existed only days prior to this comment and this forum...

[ Edited by: alohabros 2005-08-31 13:15 ]

More thoughts from my clouded mind:

This may not be about the money but my Web host charges me $164 a year for 45 GB/month data transfer. If there are 200 Grand Members, that's $4800 a year. That's alot of moolah moolah, baby!

Why didn't I think of Tiki Central???

As a newbie (post-wise speaking, anyway, I've lurked around for about two years or so), and being denied access to Bilge and Beyond, I have a few comments that will definitely sound familiar:
I've definitely felt more comfortable posting in the Bilge and Beyond forums as a newbie so that I don't make an obvious fool of myself posting in a thread I have no right to be discussing. I also feel like I'm sort of getting to know people based on some of the posts in Bilge and Beyond. It's a good way to break the ice over a period of time. I have seen other newbies posting similar sentiments in this thread.
However, I also agree with Hanford's decision. If these topics are using up too much bandwidth, then some changes have to be made. Bilge and Beyond are the ones I'd rather do without, if a choice had to be made.
I might go back to lurking more, and posting less, but I'd rather be able to read the tiki posts, since that is primarily what I come here for, than be able to post in Bilge and Beyond.
I guess if I have a point then it's this: it's not my decision to make, and if I don't have access to Bilge and Beyond, then I'll deal. I don't think it will detract from my enjoyment of tiki central, although it may stunt my social development. :)

On 2005-08-30 23:15, Humuhumu wrote:
Based on feedback we've gotten from many longstanding tikiphiles, we want to take steps to re-emphasize the Tiki part of Tiki Central.

I hope that These longstanding tikiphiles were not the ones also posting in bilge and beyond that helped it get so out of control. The whole part of this that sucks the most is that there were some topics in beyond that were very informative and useful that some of us will no longer be able to enjoy unless we send in some money.

[andy griffith]once i was playing in a friend's sandbox. then he told me i had to follow his rules if i played in his sandbox. i had to decide if i wanted to follow his rules or find a different sandbox to play in[/andy griffith]

[jack nicholson]once i was playing in some kid's sandbox. then he told me i had to follow his rules if i played in his sandbox. his parents never found that kid again.[/ jack nicholson]

On 2005-08-31 12:33, pappythesailor wrote:
More thoughts from my clouded mind:

This may not be about the money but my Web host charges me $164 a year for 45 GB/month data transfer. If there are 200 Grand Members, that's $4800 a year. That's alot of moolah moolah, baby!

Why didn't I think of Tiki Central???

Hanford has stated many times that he's not doing TC as a money making venture, and that the Grand Membership is voluntary as a contribution to reimburse Hanford for the years he did it out of his own pocket, and to keep it going, and to allow for improvement.

Are you calling him a liar?

He's not calling me a liar, he's just pointing out the obvious: that I make some money for every grand membership purchased.

Being a member of TC for just under a year, I decided to become a Grand Member a few months ago because of the information and aloha I got from the other TC members. If someone was to clip the factual data from all the postings, volumes of books could be created. I have learned how to create a beautiful & tropical backyard, mix my mai tai with the proper ingredients, enjoy aloha and tiki art functions, and interact with fellow tiki enthusiasts. Our "infatuation" with tiki is not cheap, regardless if we find our treasures at yard sells, purchase directly from the manufacturers, or buy the materials to create it ourselves. I personally have spent hundreds of dollars over the last couple of years incorporating tiki and aloha culture into my daily life. Who hasn't shelled out that extra $30 - $50 for a mug or art piece that would add the finishing touch to your collection? (Shag and Tiki Farm had a couple of good months due to my credit card!)

I appreciate what Hanford is trying to accomplish with this site, and support his efforts in creating what he believes to be a valuable source of tiki and a gathering place of information and ohana. If using this site to its fullest means I need to contribute, as long as my needs are met, I will be right there. If certain areas are restricted from my use since I am not contributing to the maintenance of the site, then I agree to those guidelines too. Wow, this site is so much more than a bulletin board... spell check? searching? Posting pictures? Quoting other's text?

A Hukilau is a group effort... people gathering around the fishing net, each of them offering their assistance in pulling the net in so we all can enjoy the catch. I live a modest life, and feel that for $24 a year, I get more entertainment than my monthly cable bill offers me at twice the price. It's great to make friends with others that share my interest of Tiki and Aloha, and reach others all over the world! I learn something new everyday from you!!!

Mahalo,
Myke

May the Tiki be with you, and float the Aloha to all parts of the world!

[ Edited by: tikiwinebear 2005-08-31 15:00 ]

...Are you calling him a liar?

... jab, chill out, chum... everyone is learning from these posts and gaining insight... no one is bagging on anyone... stay cool...

[ Edited by: alohabros 2005-08-31 15:12 ]

On 2005-08-31 15:09, alohabros wrote:

...Are you calling him a liar?

... jab, chill out, chum... everyone is learning from these posts and gaining insight... no one is bagging on anyone... stay cool...

[ Edited by: alohabros 2005-08-31 15:12 ]

I'm cool, it just sounded like a jab on Hanford, and I didn't like that. I know Hanford doesn't need anyone to defend him against criticism. I just reacted in disgust.

can i asume that anyone having a problem with HANFORD making money will be selling doubles of their TIKI collections for the price they paid for them at the thrift stores?

I'm getting a lot of insight from this topic on why people are here and what they get out of it. It's eye opening! Perhaps this is straying off topic but since other folks are explaining what they like most about TC I though I would chime in.

Some people think that when people post info on defunct tiki bars it's a dry topic. I feel the complete opposite. It's one of my favorite things about this forum.

Some members feel like this is just a place to chat with people in the scene and the events are the main reason why they're here. Not for me. I've loved all the tiki events I've attended and most of the people I've met through here, but just going into a classic tiki bar with one other person or a small group is why I fell in love with Tiki bars, and events can actually distract from that intimate romantic feeling. There are rockabilly events and mod events and punk events and tiki events and I would like to attend all of them if I could! But do a have a preference for one "scene" over another? Not really. They're all scenes with good points and bad.

I never felt like the Grand Membership was any kind of elitism. And believe me I know all about elitism being in the mod scene for years. But if so many other people do seem to think so, maybe an anonymous Grand membership would be preferable to a public one.

I still don't know why my star is a different color than most members. :wink:

I will be working on a bigger reply to everyone's comments, but I wanted to jump in and say Thanks for being honest and vocal about your feelings, and to keep them coming. I'm reading everyone's comments and everyone has great points.

~Hanford

PS Jab, I fixed your star. :)

Until the new "view new posts across all forums" function was added, I had no idea that the Bilge and Beyond were SO popular. For what it's worth, this saddened me a little. I guess I was bummed that anyone would come here for anything other than Tiki talk!!! (As I read what I just typed it seems as strange to me as maybe it does to some of you) but I have to admit, that was my first reaction.
Did anyone else get that little "pang" when you first noticed how many new posts were non-tiki related everytime you hit the "v n p a a f" link? Or am I the only one?

On 2005-08-31 15:58, The Granite Tiki wrote:
...I was bummed that anyone would come here for anything other than Tiki talk!!! (
Did anyone else get that little "pang" when you first noticed how many new posts were non-tiki related everytime you hit the "v n p a a f" link? Or am I the only one?

... never had a little "pang"... seems, though, that there is some creative diversion to the non-tiki related posts... some have said that these have led to a better understanding of others...

... elementary school would have been a bummer without recess, college would've dragged on without music and chicks...

...without a little diversion, people get bent... and that's no good...

First of all, I'm extremely encouraged by reading the participation in this topic. It seems we have just as many passionate new members as we have passionate old members. I suspected as much. The new members I meet at various tiki events and online are just as much fun, just as sincerely into tiki, and just as genuinely nice as the folks I met when I joined four years ago. To me, it seems that Tiki Central is healthy and thriving.

That said, I definitely agree with Hanford and many other members that I've talked to, that Tiki Central has been feeling watered-down over the years. Not in the Events category by any means! I never would have guessed 3 or 4 years ago that I would have a dilemma over which local tiki event to attend each weekend!

But in the posts themselves, I feel we've been straying away from the focus that brought us here. Is that good or bad? There are cogent arguments to both sides.

When Hanford created "Beyond Tiki" and especially "Bilge" it was because the main categories were becoming cluttered with off-topic posts. He opened these new categories as relief-valves and what do you know, they worked! The main tiki-related categories became focused again and the off-topic posts accumulated in Bilge & Beyond, where people could read or ignore them as they chose.

But I don't think Hanford anticipated that "Bilge" and (to a lesser extent) "Beyond" would become thriving, growing "side-shows" or 24-hour-a-day open mike night comedy clubs with a draw all their own. If the motto "Read them or Ignore them as you choose" was really the only issue here, than I'd say keep these topics open and free as usual - no harm done.

But I think the problem is a little more complex. I think you can make an argument that some (not all) of what goes on in "Bilge and Beyond" detracts and dilutes energy from the main topics. I've found it much easier at the end of a working day to gossip or joke or share a link in Bilge than to put together a nicely-researched tiki-history post or some photos from my postcard collection that would benefit and edify the membership at large. I used to thrive on putting together those informative posts, now I find it's easier to be a Bilge couch-potato or a Bilge comedian.

On the other hand, I've found many of the topics in Bilge and Beyond to be extremely valuable and thought-provoking. These forums are friendlier, more personal, and less-intimidating to new members than the main topics. They help foster our sense of community and help new members get their feet wet. And frankly, laughing is healthy and I thank God I have so many witty friends to keep me in stitches.

So Hanford has a dilemma. A poor analogy might be the College Administrator who wants to bring the focus back to learning and excellence and away from the frat-parties and drunkeness which have begun to detract from learning. Will these changes work? I'm skeptical that they will.

I think that "bilge will find a way" and that more off-topic or tangentially-on-topic posts will find their way back into the Main forums. This will of course require more policing by the moderators. Or, more members will become Grand Members (it's cheap after all), and the Bilge and Beyond topics will continue to grow and thrive behind closed doors instead of open ones. As I said, half of what goes on in "Beyond" and (to a lesser extent) "Bilge" has great value. Just how to make sure it doesn't take over and become the main focus of Tiki Central?

Hopefully the fact that Hanford has made these changes will serve as a wake-up-call to our membership to steer things back on track where they've legitimately gotten off-track. I think the only real way we're going to get our new membership to participate constructively in a Tiki-themed website is to have the established membership lead by example. As soon as we put effort into making the main categories more interesting than the sideshows, then focus will naturally shift and "Bilge" will trim down to a healthy weight again. I know some people don't agree with me and see nothing wrong with Bilge and Beyond just the way they are right now. I respect your opinions and agree with many of your arguments.

I do know that Hanford has always had the interests of the members first and foremost in his decisions and has never been interested in making this and "elitist" or "excluding" club. Compared to other forums I've particpated in, this is a fantastic one. Hanford and the moderators do a fine job.

Although I've got misgivings, I think I agree most with Hanford when he says, "but there's nothing like actually trying something instead of talking about it." Let's try this change out. If it doesn't work, we try something else. I like the suggestion to make Bilge & Beyond "readable" to everybody but only postable by Grand Members. Other than that, I have no major problems with the decision.

Sabu

Sabu hits the nail on the head here -- the Bilge and Beyond areas are attention sinks, in terms of both TC readers and the time spent on moderating things. I think the issue is even more complex -- I believe that the growing popularity of Bilge and Beyond skew the overall tone for the site. Beyond and Bilge have been great for giving us a place to put non-tiki threads, but one problem I see is that otherwise informative tiki topics seem to be getting pulled off-track by joking posts that have a distinct Beyond/Bilge color to them.

It can be argued that it's just not possible to put the genie back in the bottle, but I think it's worth trying. We want to make Tiki Central as informative a place as we can, and it takes effort to do that: first and foremost, that involves knowledgeable members sharing what they know, but we as moderators have a responsibility to make sure that information is presented in an accessible manner. Doing what we can to try to reduce off-topic discussion can really help that.

I can understand why it would appear to be counterintuitive, restricting access to off-topic areas in order to reduce off-topic discussion, but again my point is that those off-topic areas are setting the tone for the site, and de-emphasising them might get people thinking of tiki again when they go to post. Of course it is entirely possible that it could drive people to go off-topic in the tiki areas: my argument is that this is already happening. We want to start asking people to stay on-topic when that happens, which is going to mean a little more stepping-in by Hanford & moderators, but we don't mind doing that if the result is a more useful tiki website. We're trying to find ways to encourage talking tiki, and this is just one part of our attempts at that.

Like Hanford said, we were tired of talking to folks about what we should do, and thought it was about time we actually tried something. It might get a little rough as we test it out, and we're so appreciative to those who are willing to give it a try and stick with us as we figure it out.

Yeh Sabu nailed it pretty good. I like the idea of it being readable, but not postable.

Damn, that was a long post. Just think, he could have taken the easy way out after a long day at work and justed posted a fart joke in bilge... :)

I don't care a great deal about this either way since I have one of those little stars that seems to bug a few folk, and I don't spend too much time in Beyond and Bilge. But, I don't think I follow the reasoning behind the move, and it may be because I am lacking in some info.

I just took a quick peek at a couple of threads in Bilge and it appears (by casual glance) that 80+% of the posts are already by Grand Members. That means to me that just by making these changes you may reduce posting in Bilge by what? 15%? And would those who quit posting actually increase posting relevant topics in the Main Forum or would they just decrease in participation altogether? Making Bilge for Grand Members only won't make Sabu (for example) start posting more in the Main Forum, because he's already a Grand Member, as are most of the old timers. Perverse as it may seem, your intentions might be better achieved by making Bilge for non-Grand Members only!

All I can see this doing is getting a few more people to sign up for Grand Membership, and I that's a good thing IMO. Too bad you can't set it up to charge everyone a quarter for every post they make in Bilge (OK, a quarter for their first post in a thread and say a dime for all follow ups). THAT would change some behavior. And if someone posted off topic in the Main Forum it would get moved to Bilge or Beyond and the perpetrator charged 50 cents! This would be regular straight and narrow Tiki Monastery in no time flat. :wink:

I just wish those proposed sub-categories for Creating Tiki could get implemented soon.

And maybe once a week a lottery for one lucky member to get a few hours in The Back Room? :D

Interesting that Kono sees about 80% of posts in bilge and beyond are already grands and this thread looks like about 80% of posters are Not granders.
I am fine with the new deal and actually agree that it is a Good idea. I know that Hanford bends over backwards to make this site as good as possible and I believe his logic in this is sound. I am a grand member because I Want to Support this site that has given me SO Much tikidom. I don't post much except for in the Creating tiki pages, but I read just about every post here and enjoy them all.
Hanford, Do what you feel is best and change it next month if you like. As long as I enjoy this site, I will be here supporting it 100%
Go Hanford!

On 2005-08-31 09:56, aquarj wrote:
But I also don't really understand the complaints that are apparently coming in about TC getting offtopic. As Velvet Ruby points out, people can easily customize their own experience here, by just choosing what topics to read.

It seems to me that if the "problem" that brought about these changes was a shift of emphasis from tiki related topics to non-tiki related topics, then forcing people to devote more time to talking about tiki topics seems kinda weird. And I just don't see that removing access to beyond/bilge for non grand members is going to help.

If it were a money issue, then I have no problem saying that we should all pony up the $ to pay for the cost of running TC by getting grand memberships. But if the changes were really brought about by concerns that tiki central was getting too far away from tiki, then I don't think the changes are going to help. I think it will just alienate people who won't pay the money for grand membership. I have to admit that I spend a lot of time perusing and posting in beyond/bilge, so I will mostly likely pay the money to get the grand membership, but I just don't think that is the way to get people to post more tiki related topics. I agree with Swanky on this completely. People have gotten to know each other and want to talk about other things with them besides tiki. I post tiki related topics, but I also have a lot of fun posting in beyond/bilge. If Tiki Central was made to JUST be about tiki, I think that the comradarie that exists between the TC members would be diminished, and I don't think that is a very good thing. And for those people who don't like to see the non-tiki posts, they can choose not to view them. But it seems like this change has been brought about because people don't want other people talking about non-tiki topics on TC. Hanford, its your baby, and you put so much time, effort and money into running this site... and for that I thank and commend you. You also strive to make TC a better place, and you seem to value feedback from members, which I think is great. But having said that, the change seems to be a move towards censorship. It would be one thing to say that TC is only for tiki discussion - period. But if there is going to be a beyond tiki and bilge area, then I just don't think its right to regulate the contribution to the posts by saying that there needs to be more tiki discussion and less non-tiki discussion. That's my two cents.

[ Edited by: joefla70 2005-08-31 19:20 ]

I keep flip flopping on this idea. Just about all of the points mentioned are valid. I don't feel like dittoing whats been said so I'll just say we give it a try but with a definite time period to re-evaluate... say 1 month? Two months? and see where it takes TC.

just my 2 Z's

-Z

Being a Grand Member already, part of me says that it won't make a difference to me, as I will be able to read and access things as before.

My bigger concern though, is getting new users to Tiki Central. As much as I love the many friends I have already made on Tiki Central, a strong part of me does not want to see this community grow stagnant with familiarity. I want to see new creative people join Tiki Central, and feel welcome to join us, so they can share their energy with us and allow us to view things in new ways.

Stating the obvious, someone with money is going to find it easier to pay for the Grand Membership than someone with less money. This means that someone whose main tiki activity is buying mugs on ebay will likely be able to easily afford Grand Membership, while a younger 'starving' artist who has just discovered the pleasures of creating tiki artwork might not have that luxury. Personally, I would rather see more of the creative artists than the ebay purchasers.

Right now the only way to become a Grand Member is by paying the annual fee. Perhaps there could be other ways of elevating a cash-starved worthy person to Grand Member status? If someone started posting relevant and informative posts in the main tiki forums, then perhaps they could receive a gratis upgrade until their cash situation improves - or at some point perhaps even be awarded lifetime privileges. Or if someone sent in proof that they had carved their own tiki in the past year, or converted a room in their house to tiki decor, then they would be eligible for free membership. A percentage of the Grand Member fees could even be set aside for a 'Tiki Central Foundation,' where a select group could nominate and elevate new personalities to Grand Member status.

Vern

[ Edited by: ikitnrev 2005-08-31 19:17 ]

I was just looking into becoming a Grand Member and noticed that there is an oath that must be taken which is found in the third star of the Grand Member Code of Conduct, which states:

I understand that as a Grand Member I’m an equal with regular members, and that I will not taunt or tease others about their membership standing or lack thereof.

It would seem that not all members are as equal as others!

So if Bilge and Beyond are Grand Members areas only, will there be an amputation of the Grand Members Area? It seems to me that the Grand Members Area has just been made into the equivalent of a vestigal tail. Do you cut it off? Or do you leave it there for people to stare at and wonder why it exists?

I am a Grand Member, but how many posts have I made in the Grand Member Area? I really think that Bilge and Beyond have added a soul to this message board. Made it less of a dictionary as it were.

I'm sensing a seed change in the board. A disturbance in the force as it were.

And will the tiki only content extend to SHOUT! ?
Perhaps SHOUT should be a Grand Member area only also.
It would make sense wouldn't it. People pay for interaction. Wasn't that one of the big selling points of the World Wide Web?

And if you wanted to see membership jump, make SHOUT! mic chat! People would sign up in droves.

[ Edited by: TikiGardener 2005-08-31 19:55 ]

Now I feel guilty about all my posts in Bilge, if this is what it has led to.

Even though I am already a grand member, I don't think I will be posting in Bilge anymore.

And again (as this subject haunted me for about for about 17 minutes this morning)...

"Beyond and Bilge have become a sideshow of sorts and a destination of their own, and that was not why Tiki Central was created. It was created for the sharing of Tiki information. I believe that making it available to GMs only will mean we're attracting people who are interested in Tiki." -Hanford-

The topic of Tiki is fairly finite. There's the old (real stuff, old bars, the junk), and the new (new stuff, new bars, events). Throw in some rambling musings on the topic and that's about it.

The regularly heard complaint that Tiki Central feels less exciting or "watered down" seems not rooted in actual change of tone or people but in the fact that just about every subject has been covered to a satisfying degree.

I've seen the Main Forum stay pretty much the same for days (especially when you ignore the threads that shouldn't be in the Main Forum). This isn't because members' energy and time is being poured into Beyond or Bilge it's because there's nothing new to say. The Main Forum is where everyone wishes they had something to post, some new discovery of Tiki. But there just aren't that many.

We do attract people who are interested in Tiki. I've read new members comments that they've spent days going through all the old topics. I've read many old members posting "We've already discussed that topic." when a new member posts a new thread in the Main Forum. With no new topics or comments to be made in the Main Forum it's understandable why people, especially new members, turn to Beyond and Bilge.

We all came for the Tiki, we've stayed because of the community.

As I said pages ago Grand Membership is relatively inexpensive. The price of a magazine subscription or a couple of overrated drinks in Los Angeles. But $24 can be stiff for students, parents, recently divorced people with wrecked credit, and others.

One of the reasons I became a Grand Member was that I knew there would be many members of Tiki Central who wouldn't/couldn't contribute. I wanted Tiki Central to remain the best online resource for Tiki information and a happening community for all lovers of Tiki who swung by.

I think this decision is a strong kick in the coconuts of the community. And if it came without warning I think that was a little unfair.

PS: "I'd like to stress that this change is in-part due to feedback I've been getting from vocal TC members, in the form of Private Messages and emails." -Hanford-

I'd be curious to see what the complaints were about...That Beyond was one step beyond Beyond? Bilge too silly? If the moderators are sorting out the stuff that doesn't belong in the Main Forum and the stuff that belongs in Bilge it seems the strong Tiki focus of the Main Forum will remain strong.

I understand Hanford's concerns and they are valid. However I also do not think it will solve the problem and may create more work than anticipated. Also, I was originally drawn to Tiki culture because of it's vintage/poly pop aspect (hence my username) as opposed to the more native/indigenous culture aspects. Thankfully, TC has given me the opportunity to learn more about the latter side of Tiki culture for which I am glad. However, my vintage "roots" often have me paying attention to other informative yet not-so-tiki topics in Beyond Tiki. I admit to making many posts in Beyond, but hope that the great majority was to inform others of something I had thought "the members of Tiki Central would like" as the description of Beyond indicates it should be.

I think it would be a shame to discourage someone that might have discovered this site through Beyond and then be led to learn of the rest of Tiki culture on TC. While I can gladly give up Bilge as I did not find much of value there, I fear that making Beyond inaccessible especially to newer or non-grand members would eventually create a vacuum. If newer members can't see what they're missing they may never realize the full extent of this community and it's diverse members.

I became a grand member cause I love tiki. I never thought I'd find such a place as this to learn so much, share ideas and form a bond with such a wonderful group of people. I check the board several times a day, and have contributed to just about, if not all, the different areas of the board.
I don't know if this is the right way to get us back on track, but I stand by Hanford.You have my respect for your unending commitment to this board. It's nice of you to ask for our thoughts on the matter.

On 2005-08-31 13:30, thejab wrote:

Hanford has stated many times that he's not doing TC as a money making venture, and that the Grand Membership is voluntary as a contribution to reimburse Hanford for the years he did it out of his own pocket, and to keep it going, and to allow for improvement.

Are you calling him a liar?

I searched my soul for the answer to your question. At the risk of making enemies somewhere I least want them... well, I think it probably IS about the money. That said, I still plan to become a Grand Member because this place is worth $24 to me.

Hey, can we move this thread to Beyond Tiki please?

Ahu (Eh, do watcha gotta do Hanford, it's your house... I don't really read those forums anyway)

hi All,

I don't post much, but felt the need to post on this topic.

I have been a member a long time and I am a grand member, I don't post much but I read a lot. I have collected tiki all my life, before I even realized how much a part of my life it was.

My thoughts on this is that it is a bad thing for the community. If it was really about just making the site more tiki focused, the intent is ok, but there are truly people who love this site and are members who can not afford to pay the money, no matter how small or trivial some of you think it is. I am a little surprised that someone would actually type " we are talking about 24.00, right?"

Its been a long time since 24.00 made a difference in my life, but I remember the days I could only buy 10 boxes of mac and cheese for a buck, and was grateful for it.

I think, that if this site lost one good dedicated member who found friends here and a free place to love,hang out at, and had a love of all things tiki because they couldn't afford 24.00, then the site is not better off for losing that person, it is worse off.

I ran a very large site for many years, a site with as much passion for something that tiki holds for all of us. Some of those members would tell me that that site got them through their day, when they had nothing and it all went bad, that they could come to a site that their friends were at and just chat. Isn't that what a community, real or virtual is all about?

Just my .02 cents

An alternate solution for those who can't afford membership but who absolutely must post in B&B...why not utilize the Yahoo Group for non-tiki posts? Get back to where we once belonged....@;-)

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tikicentral

Anyway, with a grit of my teeth, I paid my GM dues tonight. I can't help it, the mind is weak. Must...have...more...Bilge....@;-)

Rae

Thanks everyone for replying so passionately and candidly. Everyone's comments here are really important.

If you have something to say about this change, say it now! There's no better time.

~Hanford

On 2005-09-01 01:53, hanford_lemoore wrote:
Thanks everyone for replying so passionately and candidly. Everyone's comments here are really important.

If you have something to say about this change, say it now! There's no better time.

~Hanford

I love a great debate, but this one seems without purpose. The people responsible for the creation of this site and it's upkeep, the cost of running it, looked at what it had become and decided it was no longer what it started out as. I believe they are doing this with thought. This is not just a drunken bilge post or a lamprey thread. The internet is a huge world, TC is a small part of what is out there, and while for many it is a huge part of their lives, even some of the moderators do not really seem to be into tiki, but they do support this site with their time and energies. Venting through this thread may help you unburden yourself of your ill feelings toward this action, but I give credit to Hanford for making the strong belief in making a bold choice. Sometimes making the hard choice is not the easy choice, and even harder to live by that choice.