UPDATE: Beyond and Bilge Talkback Topic

I took 15 minutes out of my busy morning and created the non-tiki forums. A place to post junk that's free. Go nuts.

http://telechron.net/tikiforums/

Weeeeee...

On 2005-09-01 05:36, Fez Ape wrote:
I love a great debate, but this one seems without purpose.

Hanford asked for thoughts and comments so this thread certainly is with purpose, if only to provide Hanford the feedback he has requested.

And I think it is possible to disagree with the action while respecting the motivations and even agreeing with the reasoning behind the decision. There is always more than one way to carve a tiki, as we all know.

What I don't understand is how those forums have detracted from the Tiki Central experience. Their effect must have been considered negative otherwise why bother with the change? Personally, i thought they added to the community positively.

When you are at work, do you only ever talk about work-related issues and suppress any talk about the weekend, movies, music or other non-work related talk? Of course not, because that would make the workplace boring.

Here's hoping the same thing doesn't happen to Tiki Central.

I'll stand by whatever Hanford wants to do, since he runs this complex and costly sandbox, and he can set the rules.

That said, I think I'm on the side of wishing that B & B forums remain at least open to viewing by non-GM's. Newbies are needed around here to bring new life, and many appreciate the fact that we are not a bunch of dry, boring, single-minded, elitist historians. Ok, most of us are not :wink:. I came on board when there was essentially little more than a main discussion board, and I loved the breadth of knowledge, interests and humor involved.

In fact, I already loved tiki (although I didn't know tons) but was drawn here by the community, whom I'd met at various tiki events. Is the community more important to me than tiki? At the risk of being reviled because I love people more than stuff, uh, yes. And yet, I love many of you for your love and devotion to tiki and love the knowledge you bring to me, so is there a clear distinction? Not for me. (And Heaven knows, I've spent a bundle on creating my little tiki paradise at home. But for me, what is the point of it if I can't share it with others?)

I hope we who have been here a long time haven't forgotten that non-tiki-ish stuff used to appear all the time on board. It has indeed always been a part here. Sure, a non-tiki post would be prefaced by, "I'm not sure how tiki this is, but ..." and the info would then be shared. I personally didn't resent the encroachment. But I applaud now the separation of Beyond from Main.

On 2005-08-31 17:23, Humuhumu wrote:
I think the issue is even more complex -- I believe that the growing popularity of Bilge and Beyond skew the overall tone for the site. Beyond and Bilge have been great for giving us a place to put non-tiki threads, but one problem I see is that otherwise informative tiki topics seem to be getting pulled off-track by joking posts that have a distinct Beyond/Bilge color to them.

I disagree with Humu2's assessment here. IMO, the existence of B&B doesn't make people occasionally get silly on Main. Rather, I see that they do keep the non-tiki stuff away from Main. Seems like we were always reminding people to stay on topic before, but I rarely see terrible strays now (although I'm sure they exist, but a quick moderator moves them, maybe?) And let us not forget the great moment when a Beyond thread was given the grand and glorious distinction of being moved TO Main! Beyond does provide much to the Tiki world, even if it's just keeping us informed and well-rounded.

And I'm putting my money where my mouth is; I FI-nally renewed my GM status this morning. (I lost my place in the queue, though, as having been the 10th to sign up originally, excluding Hanford :( ) If nothing else, this whole discussion has appropriately shamed me into doing the right thing :)

F

I sit on the fence with this decision. (And I fear I may have just wasted bandwidth)...

If we're all chiming in:

Rum Demon = Opposed

I check the forums several times a day. I work my way from top to bottom. Beyond and Bilge had a nice casual feel that was like the frosting atop the big moist Tiki cake, and I saved it for last. Now I still appreciate the brownie-type TC, but as with most things prefer a bit of topping.

-Joe

[ Edited by: Rum Demon 2005-09-01 09:30 ]

I'm all for the change. I havn't read ALL the replies here (because I'd rather read about Tiki!)
I actually stopped checking "beyond" at some point, only going there occasionaly. Bilge - I hardly ever read. If people want to spend the time talking about off-topic stuff, that's fine, but that better be in addition to the on-topic discussion. Limiting it to grand members would probably help change the proportions for good.
Hey, and if people start posting off-topic in the main forum, there's U-Moderate for that.

Thanks Hanford,
Ran

(PS - I gotta tell you that I often find the "collecting" and "creating" forums too cluttered, but there's no real way to solve that without being snobbish a-holes)

My 2 cents:

Again...people ask me WHY I don't drop in here like I used to. Gee, NOW I remember...

This used to be great place to hang out, shoot the shit and talk tiki...Now, it's social club. If you don't have the same political views, or kiss the right ass, then you're an outcast.

By the way..where the hell is TikiToa?

I'm done.

I have no opinion, but I am wondering if you can answer this one question for me hanford, please:
Since the true purpose of this is to limit bandwidth and cut down on certain types of posts, why couldn't this same thing be accomplished by keeping those forums open to viewing but closed to posting to all but Grand Members (as others have suggested)? I'm not taking a side, I'm just wondering if I'm missing something here that I'm not familiar with in the world of web-hosting. Would leaving these open to viewing but closed to postings accomplish the exact same thing (without the added dues, of course, which I believe you're entitled to - this being your site and all)?
Thanks for the site. Either way, I come for the tiki, but I stay for the feel of this place, Beyond and Bilge, or not.

I was already a GM, so no effect for me.
I cannot speak for the non GM's.
But I'm pissed off that I can't post in "Backroom", and then you go and taunt me with this new "Storage Room" category. Damn you! :)

Every time an image or a page is viewed, bandwidth is used.

I have been on the fence about this too. I find it difficult to come up with a statement that represents how I feel about all this, which is why it took me so long to reply to the initial announcement. I agree that bilge is out of control, but that beyond is full of interesting(and related) topics.

I support Hanford with whatever changes he makes, but I would still like to see beyond, or some form of it available to all members. If only just to view.

Shout is a great place for us to chat. I use it regularly. It takes up less space and is a wonderful spot to really get to know fellow TCers.
IMO it is the same as bilge, but what is posted is not permanent. If I can't attend an actual event, I can still meet up with like minded individuals and talk tiki, or drinks, or carving, or thrifting, or whatever!

If this is the new plan, then let's give it a go. I'll do as much u-modding as I can, and try to help out wherever possible. I think I've almost grown a Tiki Central limb with all the time I spend here. Are those mousepads still available?

-Tw

Yeah, a second-class "non-GM" here to speak his mind.

I've been riding this crazy web-train since the Yahoo days. Thats a while, boys and girls.

When the day comes when you have to pay money to post a happy birthday to an old member who you felt was a positive influence in the forum, then it's time to hang it up.

While I agree that this is "Your forum"...and that one should respect "Your Rules", I don't think people should be restricted because they either don't spend enough time in here or cannot justify spending the money to become a GM.

I realize that this makes us "Second class citizens" to many of you as we 'sponge off of your contributions', but thats the way it is.

If we do not agree with your political views, we are outcasts....if we say anything against certain celebrity minded members, we're outcasts...if we're not grand members, we're outcasts...

What the hell has happened to this forum?

Now I'll get tons of PMs and tons of nasty e-mails telling me "How dare I..?!"...(To which I say 'blow me') But I know that there are others like me out there who want to say just this.

Not all of us can justify the money right now. Times are rough for many. So DON'T try to make us feel like we are beneath you because YOU contributed. We're not. Just because we don't pay the GM dues, doesnt mean we like tiki any less than YOU do.
We try to contribute in the only way we can, by making positive posts and trying to befriend other tiki-lovers.

But, then again...what do I know?

On 2005-09-01 11:42, mahalomo wrote:
...Since the true purpose of this is to limit bandwidth...

I just want to clarify real quick -- a few people have brought up bandwidth, which is not why we're doing this.

I know it's long & wordy, but please take a moment to read the announcement carefully:

http://www.tikicentral.com/viewtopic.php?topic=16322&forum=1&0

Thank you for your continuing comments, they are being heard.

On 2005-09-01 12:22, the75stingray wrote:
Yeah, a second-class "non-GM" here to speak his mind.

Ya Sting, that's what I meant when I said non GM's. Lighten up.
I payed the money because I wanted too, not to kiss anybodys ass or to be "above".
I've always liked your posts, but your wiggin on this thread.

[ Edited by: Swanky 2005-09-02 20:58 ]

The Queen has spoken and she elequently put how I feel about the community of Tiki. This change made me cry.
I repectfully request that you, Hanford, listen to "Ride Captain Ride" by Blues Image because I feel the Tiki community created a "mystery ship" here and now, of all people, you sink it. I complied to your rules and now that is not enough. Fortunately Tiki is bigger than you and I can sail away to another sandbox. I really enjoyed my time spent here and the characters I met. Aloha! Jan

On 2005-09-01 12:39, Humuhumu wrote:

On 2005-09-01 11:42, mahalomo wrote:
...Since the true purpose of this is to limit bandwidth...

I just want to clarify real quick -- a few people have brought up bandwidth, which is not why we're doing this.

I know it's long & wordy, but please take a moment to read the announcement carefully:

http://www.tikicentral.com/viewtopic.php?topic=16322&forum=1&0

Thank you for your continuing comments, they are being heard.

Sorry - you're right. My misunderstanding. But even still I wonder if making it "more tiki" can still be accomplished by leaving those areas open to viewing, but post-restricting them. Not challenging anyone, just wondering why it wouldn't be possible that way...

Ya Sting, that's what I meant when I said non GM's. Lighten up.
I payed the money because I wanted too, not to kiss anybodys ass or to be "above".
I've always liked your posts, but your wiggin on this thread.

Yeah? SO WHAT!? You paid your money...you're in your 'click'. Good for you Unga...

You asked for opinions, you got 'em.

I heard you loud and clear...non-GMs. We are the lower class as implied by your statement. No you can't speak for us, you're not one of us. You have a star by your name. You're a special, special person.

CLEARLY this move would not effect you because your access has not be restricted. Why would you even reply to this thread?

I have never disrecpected anyone in this forum, ever! If I'm wrong, someone please clarify it for me, since I appear to be on the chopping block this week.
For Petes sake, this isnt Survivor...it's a Tiki forum. You gonna suggest that I get voted out like a few others have been? Because I disagree with your views?!

I have always tried to promote a positive tolerance within the forum from days back. I don't say much, but as a general rule, when I do, I'm either passionate about it, or knowledgeable about the subject.

So, when you attempt to disrespect me to remain in the favor of your groupies, I will take offense and I will get "wiggy"! You said your piece, Unga...now go receive the pats on the back from your supporters.

You asked for opinions, so DON'T get pissy when you get an opposing one!

And Humu, you said, this was not about bandwidth and I chose THIS little tid-bit to refresh memories as to what this IS about:
"Some members might think you're making this change to make money. I've stated earlier why I'm doing it, and if it does make TC a better place it will lead to more GMs, Ads, and other profit-ables."

So. Again, I feel that by restricting the access is an attempt to make those of us who have not committed to the "Grand Membership" feel like lesser citizens. And I stand by that. If we can't pay, then this isnt the place for us? Isnt that what was said?

If my opinion makes me 'wiggy', so be it. You did, after all, ask for our opinions, did you not? In my deminished, lower class, white trash capacity, I may have mis-read the thread topic.

Clearly, Hanford is right...this is not the place for some of us and the TC world will be better without us if we leave (or are booted off).
By the way, Hanford, I DON'T appreciate the nasty PM's from you. I'd expect that from others, but not from you.
"Seriously."

[ Edited by: Monkeyman 2005-09-01 19:39 ]

I stated that when I sold my next carving I would become a GM , Well today I sold a small piece.

Instead of becoming a GM I am going to donate that money to the red cross.

When i joined TC it was because it was all new to me and everyone was kind , tolerant and respectful of each other.

After the events of this week , which started with me trying to save someones life on the side of the highway. I have taken a long look inside myself to see what it is that really matters. I am going to cut back the amount of time I spend here and stick to the creating forum more than any other.
I am glad that I have been here to meet new people and learn so much.
I hope that the changes being made are for the better.

Rodeo.

On 2005-09-01 14:10, the75stingray wrote:
By the way, Hanford, I DON'T appreciate the nasty PM's from you. I'd expect that from others, but not from you.
"Seriously."

Sorry if you considered when I wrote to be nasty, I apologize; I didn't mean for them to come off that way.

My comments regarding breaking the rules ("don't post off-topic messages in the Main Forum") were serious and I stay by those.

~hanford

[ Edited by: hanford_lemoore 2005-09-01 14:40 ]

...will trade blank cd's, gloss photo paper, legal sized manilla folders, 2 sets of american flyer guitar strings (fresh), 3 baby mexican fan palms (potted) and the e-mail addresses of various male and female escorts for double grand membership (and drinks)... please help!

On 2005-09-01 14:13, Monkeyman wrote:
If someone were seeking information about Tiki and were to visit here unaware of what was in Bilge and Beyond, I really don't think they would be missing ANYTHING. They would arrive for tiki info and guess what....thats exactly what they would find. They would not be restricted from anything that they were actually seeking when they arrived.

But they will be missing something. Without seeing Bilge & Beyond you will be missing the good, bad and sometimes ugly part of this community.

You might get a few new Grand Members now because they know what they are missing because they can't see those forums. But, after a while, people that come here will not stay. To keep any club or website going and fresh you always need a constant flux of new people.

I will probably get a Grand Membership but like a said, I know what I'm missing.

On 2005-08-31 17:23, Humuhumu wrote:
but one problem I see is that otherwise informative tiki topics seem to be getting pulled off-track by joking posts that have a distinct Beyond/Bilge color to them.

How about having u-mod for individual posts?

Hanford, or whatever you're real name is, I think you should make all of TC a membership site. In fact I think you should double the fee. I'd pay it.

On 2005-09-01 14:13, Monkeyman wrote:
I have a hard time with the "money is tight" issue around here. Most of us are accessing the internet from a computer that cost hundreds of dollars (I sure someone will pipe in that their computer was a gift, or they are accessing it from a school or something..always an exception). Most of us are paying some sort of monthly fee to access the internet and depending on your provider it can be $40 per month. Many of us are collectors which usually means we have money to burn or if we don't have money to burn we spend beyond our means anyway.

If anyones finances are really that tight where they are unable to contribute to something they spend countless hours on they perhaps they should re-evaluate their priorities. If I had to buy cup o noodles for every meal out of necessity then what business do I have subverting my precious funds on frivolities like the internet.

While I agree with the non-quoted text you typed I will say this about my money being "tight".

I have paid up for 2 years on my ISP (which recently changed hands and almost got me screwed out of money that was paid). When I did that I had a well paying job, but my wife and I decided to move. Yes our decision. I paid upfront for my service so I could stay connected to my friends and family that I don't get to see often. I am using a computer that I purchased back in '97. I have put alot of time into it's up-keep so I don't have to purchase another computer. So far I have not spent any money on repairing it, nor have I upgraded from Win 98. My connection speed is 32k. Yes I typed that right. I don't have access to anything high speed, it's not offered for a decent price out here. Nor would I pay for it anyways unless it was the price I paid for my ISP. My complaint about using the computer I have, is that come of the pages crap out on me because of too many images. Annoying yes, but I can wait for the load time to see everyone's finds and art pieces. I run a few websites which are also paid up for a few years. I'm pretty old tech when youthink about it, but it's my choice. Then should I have some money to pay for this and that? Nope. I am in a credit counciling service. This is due to being laid off after the holidays and not being able to find a decent job in my area for my field. Plus I found out my ex-boss lied about my employment performance (basically said I never worked in the industry before I moved to where I am at now). I found this out from TWC (Texas workforce commission). My wife and I went on food stamps and I drew unemployment, until my ex-boss disputed it. I now have a job, but I get paid $7 an hour, not $11.50 from where I used to work. We no longer are elegible for food stamps because I now make too much. I haven't gone tiki hunting in a long long time. With the finds I got through my unemployment were either gifts or paid for by a reletive (who was with me). So to recap: All of my money goes to my mortgage (which thankfully is very low), food, gas in my car, the credit service, electric, phone, water, insurance and gas (for the house).
Plus to top everything off (to bring this all back to Tiki) I turn 30 Sept. 11th. I had planned a huge celebration at one of two W. Texas polynesian themed hotels, plus i wanted to have nice mugs to sell to people. That isn't going to happen and I guess I'll have just a regular old birthday this year. I did have some mugs made, but only 12 and not all have been sold. So besides the last few sentances, I'd have to say that money is pretty darn tight for me. In order to survive (because I did not get unemployment until June...I was laid off in January) I sold off childhood toys and items I had collected. I hated to do it, but I would rather have a roof over my head than out in the street. So I can now say my money IS tight.

Monkeyman, I'm not mad at you, and I'm not mad at anyone here. All Hanford wants to do is something that he things everyone needs to put thier opinon on. You said your I said mine and that's that. I just felt I needed to defend myself against that statement. To tell you the truth, I don't know what goes on in the current membership area, nor do I care. But if making the B&B members only, would it defeat the purpose of having a membership area to talk?

On 2005-09-01 16:32, Jungle Trader wrote:
I think you should make all of TC a membership site. In fact I think you should double the fee. I'd pay it.

You got to be joking. Right?

http://www.unklejohn.com

My Tiki Lounge http://unklejohn.suddenlaunch.com/index.cgi

[ Edited by: Unkle John 2005-09-01 17:29 ]

Nope, not joking.

On 2005-09-01 16:32, Jungle Trader wrote:
Hanford, or whatever you're real name is, I think you should make all of TC a membership site. In fact I think you should double the fee. I'd pay it.

Why do you feel that way?

On 2005-09-01 15:01, Rob Roy wrote:

On 2005-09-01 14:13, Monkeyman wrote:
If someone were seeking information about Tiki and were to visit here unaware of what was in Bilge and Beyond, I really don't think they would be missing ANYTHING. They would arrive for tiki info and guess what....thats exactly what they would find. They would not be restricted from anything that they were actually seeking when they arrived.

But they will be missing something. Without seeing Bilge & Beyond you will be missing the good, bad and sometimes ugly part of this community.

You might get a few new Grand Members now because they know what they are missing because they can't see those forums. But, after a while, people that come here will not stay. To keep any club or website going and fresh you always need a constant flux of new people.

I will probably get a Grand Membership but like a said, I know what I'm missing.

True, there will be something missing, but it's not as if they can not make a ($$$) calculated decsision as to what it is worth to join & post in those areas, also.

Actually, I often don't bother myself with the Grandmembership because I am too lazy to keep typing my password (maybe I should change it to 1,2,3,4.)

However, hopefully, there is enough which is interesting on the main boards, to keep "newbies" coming back.

At the end of the day, I think we need to allow the proprietor to exercise discretion.

One prediction has been that new members won't be attracted if they cannot see B&B. Just a reminder - Beyond & Bilge both did not originally exist at all. Before the Beyond Tiki forum was created, absolutely every single new member joined as a result of their interest in the other forums. So to accept this hypothesis, one would have to discount whatever it was that attracted all the members who joined before Beyond, because the other forums are still free and open just as they were back then.

Unfortunately, some of the opinions seem to be going "beyond" the subject and moving into a bunch of negative comments about Grand members (?) and the whole idea of Grand membership. This part I really don't get. Seems like this is coming from a mindset that it's not enough to insist that all of TC must remain free for everyone into perpetuity, but also to go one step further and disparage those who voluntarily contribute money, and disparage Hanford, presumably for stooping to such a low level as to solicit or accept these voluntary contributions. If people want to contribute money, what's wrong with that? If Hanford wants to give special privileges as thanks for contributions, what's wrong with that?

And anyway, why not just be thankful for what's free? The whole second class citizen thing doesn't make sense to me. If a group is restricted from even having the right to pay a fee and get privileges, then I can see how they'd feel subjugated. But refusing to pay for something and then complaining about not getting the associated privileges, all while still enjoying free privileges from the same service?

To the75stingray, although you say you've never disrespected anyone here, you do seem to harbor some ill feelings toward sort of a mainstream of TCers. What's the difference between you wanting to "post a happy birthday to an old member who you felt was a positive influence" and other people "kissing ass"? When other people say nice things to each other, how do you measure whether it was genuine versus intended for the rear end?

To those making claims about the degree to which TC costs have been covered by Grand memberships, is that based on any real information about Hanford's costs, or is it pure speculation? Have you decided now exactly how much is appropriate for Hanford to receive from Grand members, and anything further is deserving of your scorn?

-Randy

[ Edited by: tikichic 2005-10-06 06:53 ]

... how 'bout a tiki co'op... two or two hundred folks creach under one umbrella name and partake of the ritual feast that may or may not be bilge & beyond... one ultimate grand membership... a single membership held by many... call & response by the masses heard in a single unifying post...

the proletariat non grand members... posting only as grand members can...

... send your dollars & pence, shillings and sense to...

OK, I was not going to get involved in this, but considering Monkeyman's challenge about Grand Members not commenting I decided I do need to chime in.

If this is not about bandwidth, but about bringing Tiki Central back to a focus on tiki, then I don't see how this move necessarily does that. If Beyond and Bilge are a problem, then why not just get rid of them altogether rather than make them accessible only to Grand Members? Grand Members already have a forum that is exclusive to them (us). What is the need for two more?

I became a grand member not for the GM forum, but to support Tiki Central, which I see as a valuable community. I will continue to do that as long as I can, regardless of Bilge and Beyond and even regardless of the GM forum itself. Tiki Central itself is worth my support, and if some others cannot support it for whatever reason I am happy to contribute so that it remains available to the community. But this is a community, and being able to use it to send things such as birthday greetings or keeping track of distant friends when distasters strike or whatever other little things that might be somewhat off-topic have a place. So, if I am being asked for my opinion, I guess I have to go down as opposed as well.

I support whatever decision you make in any case. I just hope that it has been well thought out.

On 2005-09-01 22:09, tikichic wrote:
I personally would love to see TC be a paid site. This would have the people that are really die hards to come and communicate and possibly cut down on the multiple ids and slandering posts.

I think $24 for a GM is quite a deal and that is why I've been a GM from day one. Before I became a GM, I came to TC daily and read the topics and threads, gained valuable information and found out what events were happening. In my eyes, I thought it was a bargain to pay $24 for a GM and only fair to give back to Hanford/TC as much as this site has given me. So much knowledge is given here that it's a small price to pay.

I think it's important to realize that Tiki Central is a facilitator, not the source of all this incredible information. The sources of all this "valuable information" are the people who are members of the community, both GM's and non-GM's. Eliminate all the non-GM's and you might very well be destroying the very thing you are so willing to pay for.

A few people have said they'd like to see TC become a fully paid site but no one has actually put forth a good reason why they feel this would improve TC, which makes me think these responses are just emotional reactions or flame bait. Nevermind the fact that the individual authors of all these posts on TC actually own the intellectual property to their posts so suddenly charging for access to that information could create a legal quagmire. God forbid major contributors decided they didn't want someone making money off of posts they had written under the assumption that they were making this information available on a publicly open forum and then suddenly demanded their posts be deleted forever.

Obviously I don't believe that's where this is going but I do think it's important to realize that while TC has blossomed into a vibrant community under Hanford's guidence and financial support (during the years before the GM program, at the very least), TC started on Yahoo and would cease to exist without the involvement of the community.

And please don't misread this as any kind of slight to Hanford -- I am absolutely grateful to him and everyone else who devotes time, resources, and all of this amazing content to keep TC going.

Wow!

The real tragedy here is how this post has just turned. First it was real opinions, then by page 6, it turned into haves and have nots, and now it's just ugly.

Where in this is the common reason we come to this site?

What happened to all the people I met at Oasis and on this site who jump in to help and support each other?

I never noticed who was rich, who was poor, it was about making friends, with a common love regardless of $$

Hanford, you should close this thread before it further divides a nation. Do what you need to do, we will adjust, or we won't, you will lose some, or you won't. But this thread is like a scab that won't heal and it will get uglier..

again, just my .02 cents

I have to disagree with Queen Kamehameha. There have been many valid opinions since page six. Keep in mind that not everybody has the opportunity to check in with TC on a daily basis. This is a relatively new thread and to lock it now would be unfairly premature. You have to at least give it a week or more before drawing any conclusions.

I think that perhaps the concept of a Grand Member has come to a place where it needs revision. It was a great idea to help Hanford defray expenses and I joined for the sole purpose of supporting Tiki Central and giving back to the community that gave me a ton of information when I started to create a Tiki Room. Plus I didn't feel that it was fair for Hanford to have to take on all the expenses involved in maintaining this web. The system works as it is without everyone needing to contribute--that's the great thing about it.

Although I have access, I hardly visit the Forum of Mystery and I can honestly say that I don't even notice who has a star by their name and who doesn't. It doesn't matter to me. I think a lot of people are reacting on a very emotional level and I know I had to step back and really think about the whole situation before posting in this thread--wasn't even sure if I wanted to post at all because it's so damn heated.

I think the title has clearly caused hurt feelings and divisions among the members. I would suggest that the option to support Tiki Central definitely remain, but do away with the stars, the titles, and the exclusive forums. I really don't think anyone came here for some sort of silly Grand Member status and now people are arguing over it and some are leaving? I find it all very sad. We are here for the exploration of Tiki and the friendships...that's the bottom line.

I'm not someone who spends a lot of time in here--I randomly read a few posts when I can and that's it. How I use this place evolves with my needs and it is probably like that for others--and that's how it should be. I used Collecting Tiki quite a bit when working on my Tiki Room, I use Tiki Events in the Spring and Summer, and also recently started using SHOUT! occasionally since it tied in with the event up in Canada.

I've used Bilge for the laughs because I've had a crappy year and need the laughs! I guess that's why I instantly felt opposed to the cutoff of non-Grand Members having access...don't deny people their fun! If you do, deny it to everyone by deeming Bilge unnecessary. The world is a really serious place right now with many critical and intense problems to solve. I don't see that this issue is one of them. Can't we just get along? Peace and love to all Tiki Central members. Even the crabby ones. :wink:

Thanks everyone for their opinions.

I would like to share my thoughts with everyone on this, but I will need to take some additional time to collect my thoughts.

But, please take note: Beyond Tiki and Bilge are again available to everyone, regardless of their GM status.

I'm sorry if this caused anyone grief.

Respectfully,

Hanford

you old softie...

I think if this is to happen ( which it has anyway), they may as well just be got rid of anyway. Not a great deal of the discussion goes on in The GCFOM so I suspect this is how B+B will become too.

On 2005-09-01 14:13, Monkeyman wrote:
I have a hard time with the "money is tight" issue around here.

Im one of the "money is tight" guys. I agree its a fair call MM. Im a student, I live at home, my folks pay internet etc. so doesnt cost me. I only work 3 days a week. Then its gonna cost me more cause i gotta factor in money order cost (no credit card), exchange rate, postage etc. I do plan on it in the next 4 months.

Having said this, Im against the idea of "honourary" membership for poor bastards like me. Ill get over not posting in bilge/beyond pretty quick. GM is about people supporting Hanford meet the costs, and recognising the people who have actually opened their wallets. I had a mate on here offer to pay my membership, but I turned them down. If I get free membership, it goes against the concept of GMs, and those who have already payed.

I support the concept of paying GMs, and restricting posting in bilge/beyond to GMs only.

On 2005-09-02 01:59, cheekytiki wrote:
Not a great deal of the discussion goes on in The GCFOM

Shhhhh! Cheektiki! That's top secret! :wink:

swanky says "Should I tell you about going bankrupt from Hurricane Jeanne destroying Hukilau and taking all my credit limit after being unemployed for a year? Homelessness? Yadda yadda... "

but you got the spending money to get beyondtikicenteal.com on a whim.... a GM cant be much more than that. hmmmm why no GM swanky?

Thanks Hanford. I think the new way it's set up is great.

Thank you,Hanford!Appreciate you listening and responding in a way that gives back Beyond and Bilge.

Thanks Hanford. Having special status and privelages based solely on a financial contribution seems like the antithesis of the spirit of aloha.

I know you have thought long and hard about this subject, and want to keep the focus on tiki.

I hope you will start a new thread for people to suggest ways to do this. It may be unnecessary...this has been a wake-up call for Tiki Central. I hope everyone involved in this heated debate will stay here, and commit to making Tiki Central a better (and more tiki) place.

[ Edited by: Swanky 2005-09-02 20:57 ]

Not being the most active member of the tiki community, I thought I would keep my peace on this, but Hanford, I think you are making the right decision to keep those forums open.

I haven't seen much abuse of those forums, but I have seen a lot of cool stuff. Cool stuff that was not necessarily tiki related, but cool none-the-less. I've found music and vintage items that never would have crossed my radar screen had it not been for the off-topic forums. I haven't kept track, but I'll bet that at least some of the good stuff on there was contributed by non-GM's, and I grateful to them for it.

Put simply, I'm willing to put up with the chaff to get the wheat.

Hanford has made his decision, so I don't think it is going to help the community to continue to debate the issue or to question why people choose to become GMs or not. Let's not let money drive a wedge into our wonderful place here- it is so counter to the tiki way of life. I think it will just hurt feelings and make Hanford feel bad for raising the issue to begin with and he doesn't deseve that.

No good can come from further discussion (unless it's positive).
Peace

Cheers,
Ray

[ Edited by: Urban Tiki 2005-09-02 07:21 ]