Need Help Identifying These Door Handles

This will be my main Savage Renewal post for the day because it requires some participation (I hope).

I found some Polynesian Restaurant door handles on eBay a few weeks ago. The auction was fairly well hidden because the word "tiki" wasn't used, and the photo was blurry. These factors worked in my favor. Here's the auction photo:

I took a chance and bid, but didn't meet the seller's Reserve price. Still, he was flexible with me and eventually sent me the handles for my bid of $56 plus the $27 shipping (these suckers were heavy).

The handles arrived on Friday and I was pleased with my purchase:



Each handle is bronze, about a foot long and weighs ten lbs. They have a wonderful patina, with the raised areas having been worn smooth from countless hands, and verdigris in the recessed areas. They obviously came from from some old Tiki Temple, but which one?

I've e-mailed the seller to see if he knows where they actually came from, (the seller lives in Florida). He might know, because he knew that they were custom made for a restaurant and not mass produced, but I still haven't heard back yet. In the meantime, I took them to Bob and LeRoy at Oceanic Arts. After they told me that I had got a good deal and kindly offered to take them off my hands, their immediate reaction (both of them) was that these looked like Steve Crane Kon Tiki Ports pieces, but they couldn't verify this - just a hunch. They showed me photos of one of the tikis they had carved for a Kon Tiki Ports restaurant and the tiki was definitely in this same form - the kneeling Maori tiki with hands on belly. They were not the suppliers of door handles at the time.

The Book of Tiki and my postcard collection are not much help. No closeups of the door handles on any of the restaurants. The BOT does show cylindrical door pulls like these for the Kona Kai restaurants, but without any detail. The Kona Kai also used a Maori Tiki logo. To make matters worse, so did other restaurants, like Sam's Seafood - as can be seen in the pics below from the menu and postcard:

Can anyone add any insights as to where these handles might have really come from? I'd love to identify them definitively.

Sabu

Incredible! Are you going to install those at your home? I am so jealous.

The Traders Restaurant, in Daytona Beach!

I took that photo in January 2004.

Here's the photo with some others, on Critiki:

http://www.critiki.com/cgi-bin/pictures.cgi?loc_id=425

So... if these doorhandles are those exact door handles (can't be sure, I suppose, without really scrutinizing them against that pic), does that mean those big Witco pieces out front are gone, too? The Traders Restaurant is attached to the Aku Tiki Inn, which most will remember from having that big moai that got destroyed in last year's hurricanes. I know they'd said they intended to replace the moai, and that Wayne Coombs offered his assistance, but I don't recall if that happened. It would be odd for them to be restoring the tiki on one end and removing it on the other.

Oh, and ... awesome score!

Srutinizing has been completed! You'll notice that the left pull has a nick on the right side of its chin in both Sabu's photo and mine. Unless it's a flaw in the cast (doubt it, it looks more like after-cast damage to me), the Trader's got some 'splainin' to do!

Great Sherlock work Humu!

Wow HumuHumu. Talk about your quick service!

Those would seem to be an exact match, yes. And the return address on my package is Daytona FL. It looks like you have found my doorhandles. Now the thorny part.

I'm comissioning someone in Florida to visit the Aku Tiki on my behalf. If the owner actually replaced both the doors and the handles because they were damaged during the hurricane, then that's one thing. But if the door handles were stolen and the owners want them back, then that's another.

If the handles were in fact stolen. Then I'd be glad to return them to the restaurant if they can guarantee that they would be re-installed on the doors.

Does anyone near Daytona want to take on the responsibility of finding out what really happened to these door handles?

Sabu

Since they are both the same, the mold is the same and it can't account for the flaw on the chin or they woul dboth be that way.

I didn't know about the Traders when I went down to Daytona. I went to the Aku Tiki and looked at the lobby. I had no idea there was anything beyond the entrance to see. The Witco outside was there in January.

I was in Daytona Beach again this past January, post-hurricane, and while there was damage to be seen in the area, I would be surprised if those doors had sustained any damage. I don't specifically recall if the handles were still there on my most recent visit.

The restaurant/bar inside had been remodeled, and didn't look particularly tiki -- I think it's more likely that they were doing another remodel on the restaurant, and this time the little bit of tiki that was left didn't make the cut. Perhaps the restaurant is under new ownership, and will have a new name?

I shot this composite pic of door hardware at Bali Hai in San Diego last year:

...very similar to yours.

Awesome, Jackalope - Thanks for the pics.

So now we know that even though I've definitely got the handles from the Trader's in Daytona Beach, these handles were mass-produced to some extent and were used by various Tiki Restaurants. It would be interesting to track down the manufacturer as well. Anyone got any catalogs?

Your pics also make the argument that these are brass instead of bronze. Mine indeed may be very tarnished brass now that I study them closer.

Sabu

[ Edited by: Sabu The Coconut Boy 2005-09-07 16:24 ]

Humuhumu stated:
"Oh, and ... awesome score!"

Totally AGREE!

This may be a longshot, but... the reason there's so much Witco 'round those parts is that William Westenhaver stayed in Daytona Beach for quite a while as he worked on the Hawaiian Inn, which is nearly nextdoor the to Aku Tiki/Traders. While working on the Hawaiian Inn, he also sold Witco to other places up & down the coast. There's not any reason to think that he has a connection to these doorhandles, but, he might know the names of some of the other suppliers the Daytona Beach places were using at that time.

Neptunetiki called to tell me about this post since I spend a fair amount of time in Daytona. Sorry I don't know the answer for certain, but here is my theory:

The handles were/are on two sets of doors. The doors to the outside parking lot and the inside doors that open onto the bridge over the Koi pond. Sven told me the handles probably came from Oceanic Arts. We guess they were installed when the hotel was built in the early 70's.

I don't think the owner would have sold those handles.
She is the daughter of the guy who built the Hawaiian Inn and the Aku Tiki Inn and has a love for the tiki motiff of both properties. For example, she is the person responsible for restoring the big Moai at the Aku Tiki Inn that was damaged in one of the hurricanes last year.

It is true they did work on the hotel after the hurricanes, but I think refreshing is probably a better term than redecorating. I know of several people who have asked if they wanted to sell their Witco and the management said "no".

Anyway, it could be that someone stole the handles off one set of the doors to sell them on e-bay. It seems to me, however, that anyone taking the trouble to steal them would have known they were valuable as tiki objects and listed them as such.

For these reasons, I think they may simply be a set of handles from some other Florida tiki establishment. All this is just a semi-educated guess, but I'll try to check it out and let everyone know (unless someone else finds out first and posts the answer).
KG

[ Edited by: Kailuageoff 2005-09-07 16:37 ]

Oooh... the story deepens! I'm on pins & needles here.

I feel a little funny admitting that wanting to know whether or not a restaurant on the opposite side of the country is missing its doorhandles has got me excited.

But it's true!

Geoff,

I knew you'd weigh in eventually on this thread. I would definitely appreciate it if on your next visit to Daytona you could check at the Aku Tiki/Trader's and see if you can find out the true story. As I said, if the handles were really stolen then I would be happy to return them. Thanks much.

Sabu

Ok. More intrigue to fuel Humuhumu's anticipation.

I did a little research, (I was stupid not to do it earlier). Facts indicate possible shadiness and skullduggery going on. The seller offers the same handles on eBay over a week earlier, starting at $295 with a higher reserve. He receives only one bid... from a private bidder.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=37914&item=7343241985

Does he sell them to the private bidder for the $295 offered, even though it wasn't the reserve? No! He inexplicably re-lists the handles with a new starting bid of $50 and a new reserve of $125.00:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=37914&item=7344442095

This time 2 bidders bite, (including me), but not the private bidder from last time. My final bid is $56.00. I e-mail the seller and ask what his Reserve was, because I might be willing to meet it. He e-mails back and tells me that the Reserve is $125.00, BUT before I can reply, he re-lists the auction with a buy-it-now of $56 and lets me know. I, of course, snap it up.

My guess is that the first time through, the seller or a close friend bid on the auction himself, to create interest and validate his price. When no one took the bait, he re-listed lower. Why else would he spurn the $295 bid from the private bidder in favor of my $56 bid? Also the quickness with which he capitulated to my $56 bid when I offered more, leads me to believe that he wanted to unload these quickly without any more hassle.

The only other explanation I can think of is that he had two sets of the door handles and unloaded the first to the private bidder for $295. But if this were the case, why would he start the second pair at such a drastically lower price when they were in good shape? And why would he use the same set of photos? Something doesn't sound right here.

Any other conclusions?

Sabu

my hubby and I were at traders the 2nd week of july and all witco and handles that we know of are there and intact. They seemed quite proud of the tiki items there considering we were two goofballs taking pictures of everything. So unless they were taken in the night between then and now they might just be either a spare set or from some other now defunct place, considering you see tons of the same witco all over Daytona, it wouldn't surprise me if there were a couple of the same sets of handles.

my hubby works in daytona actually, I will get him to stop by and peek sometime.

Great thread! I can't wait to hear how it turns out...

On 2005-09-07 17:35, Sabu The Coconut Boy wrote:
My guess is that the first time through, the seller or a close friend bid on the auction himself, to create interest and validate his price.

Bingo. He's got a second shill ID on ebay.

http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBidItems&userid=wally1599&completed=1&all=1&rows=25&sort=3

I hate these idiots who can't even make a decent effort to be halfway sneaky. Makes me want to become ebay's own Travis Bickle. Send me his address and maybe I'll go pee on his flowerbed. Better yet, if it turns out they were stolen then turn him in to the restaurant owner(s).

Nice score though!

Good catch there, Kono.

You're right. If he was really smart he would have also used the word "Tiki", taken clearer photos, and probably have made $400 instead of $50.

Here's what we know so far:

1. The case is really strong that these are the actual door handles in Humuhumu's photo. I've really scrutinized the real handles and they match up exactly - down to the small piece of brass that didn't pop out of the mouth when the handle on the left was cast, and the gouge on the chin. (see red arrows on my photo and compare with Humu's photo). Plus the seller lives in Daytona Beach. Too much of a coincidence.
   

2. We know the seller is dishonest, using two different shill usernames to drive up prices on his auctions. I also checked out the seller's name and address on the internet hoping to find him connected to some construction or remodelling firm, but nothing comes up.

The conclusions don't look good. I'm frankly expecting the worst when Kailuageoff or Tiki Troll's husband visits the Trader's. We have enough right now to report the seller to eBay for fraudulantly using multiple usernames, but I'd like to wait till we have the final report from the Daytona TC'ers before I do anything. If the handles are in fact stolen, then I'd like to report everything to eBay at that point in time. Thanks all. This has become a super-interesting post!

Sabu

Well, mystery solved.

I used this great resource on the Internet called Critiki to find the phone number to the Trader's Restaurant. I called them up and talked to the manager. I asked him if he was missing the handles off the front doors, and he said they were. The reason they're gone is because he took them off the doors and sold them on ebay.

So, assuming the guy on the other end of the phone was actually the manager, looks like there's nothing criminal here except the uncaringness of a non-tiki person.

Edit: Oh, and he didn't sound like the friendliest person either.

[ Edited by: tikigreg 2005-09-08 04:37 ]

Wow. People never cease to amaze me. Why would somebody do something like that when they have ready access to the cash register?

I don't know that managers are allowed to sell off parts of the restaurant, are they? The owner, yes, but the manager?

I wonder how hard it would be to contact the owner, obviously without going through management.

Sabu,
I think they are brass. Bronze is not generally used like that. Considering what you say they weigh, they are worth what you paid in weight. Brass is valuable and one of the primary reasons it's hard to find things like old ship lamps. Over the years they were worth more as brass than as ship lamps.
This thread goes to show, you can't pull anything over on the "family." We will find you, and we keep track of all tiki!

On 2005-09-08 04:35, tikigreg wrote:
Well, mystery solved.

I used this great resource on the Internet called Critiki to find the phone number to the Trader's Restaurant. I called them up and talked to the manager.

[ Edited by: tikigreg 2005-09-08 04:37 ]

What a novel idea! It's that kind of outside-of-the-box thinking that will get you promoted around here, young man.

Wow, what a great post...maybe a great movie idea! :P

With the first pictures I was like, those look like the door handles at Bali Hai.

Then I started thinking about the time I found a Hawaiian Village of Tampa mug at a local antique store here is Tampa. The ladies at the counter talked to me for 30 minutes about how they remembered the Hawaiian Village and how neat it was, but there was a sinister twist. Apparently it was also a hangout for local/visiting mafia types! I really need to go by the place (It is a Day's Inn now :evil:) and see if there is anyone still there that remembers the good ole days.

There sure is a lot of mystery and intrigue in the world of tiki!!! :lol:

For those who are going to pursue the matter further in Florida, the seller's (and I assume manager's) name is Tom Sagmiller. I know having a name might make it a smoother task when asking questions to certain people or avoiding certain people.

Sabu

Great sleuthing folks! It's good to know they're safe in the hands of someone that appreciates them. It goes to show how easily our endangered Tiki establishments can dwindle away.

At first I thought this guy is some kind of idiot to sell this and not put "Tiki Door Handles Traders Dayonta BEach" or something like that. Then I thought, maybe he was selling 10 pounds of brass. Then I had no idea what to think. It wasn't a push to sell stolen authentic tiki. I can't imagine what the purpose was. Inept and deceitful, yes.

Maybe he was asked to install new security door hardware and locks on the doors and thought he'd try to sell the old handles on eBay to make a little money instead of throwing them away. It's hard to guess at this time.

Sabu

On 2005-09-08 09:12, Jawa wrote:
There sure is a lot of mystery and intrigue in the world of tiki!!! :lol:

between reading this, and hearing about a compatriot visiting the former Luau Room in Louisville KY, aware that many patrons were armed, i would think QT* could get a pretty good movie out of this material 8)

*quentin tarantino

"Blood on the Tikis" is a good working title...

The big question is if the manager took these door handles off, for whatever reason, what were they replaced with?

There's also the possibility that the handles on one entrance had to be replaced for an honest reason.

Where I work, we have a public safety issue with our western-facing 'brass door handles o'death' heating up during the summer, so much so that people have threatened lawsuits due to burned hands, and demanded the owner replace them, so the very expensive brass handles were wrapped in bicycle handle tape.

Yes, it looks as bad as it sounds.

Sabu, your powers of finding tiki are supernatural!

I received this e-mail today in reply to my query to the seller several days ago:

"THE HANDLES CAME FROM TRADERS RESTAURANT IN DAYTONA BEACH WHICH I AM THE MANAGER. WE HAVE REMODELED AND REMOVED THE 2 DOORS AND REPLACED WITH ONE MODERN DOOR. SOMEONE CALLED ME THIS MORNING AT THE RESTAURANT INQUIRING ABOUT THE HANDLES ON YOUR BEHALF. THIS IS A VALID SALE. IF YOU HAVE ANY FURTHER QUESTIONS PLEASE FEEL FREE TO CONTACT ME .
THANKS
TOM SAGMILLER"

So it looks like tikigreg's call finally prompted a response to me. What do you think? Legit?

Sabu

On 2005-09-08 23:28, Sabu The Coconut Boy wrote:
What do you think? Legit?

I'd say semi-legit.

I'm sure he didn't ask the owner: "Say, you guys don't mind if I sell these on ebay do you?"

"Sure Tom, go ahead, knock yourself out! That'll be your bonus for this quarter."

If it was 100% legit then I'd think that he'd put where they came from in the auction listing. Anybody that's got PBS knows the importance of provenance to the value of an antique. Plus, the mere fact that he has a shill account and then the odd manner in which he handled the transaction (quickly dropping the asking price from $400 to $56) tells me that he is a shady character. I'm sure that he feels that if he were to be caught, that he has some room to weasel out of trouble ("I thought you were just going to through them away") but would probably rather not have that confrontation with the owner occur.

I can't belive the twists and turns this is taking. Other than my home tiki bar, I've been totally out of the tiki world this summer - but this thread is just too much. I'm suddenly feeling all this pressure to find out if this guy sold those handles without the owners permission... Sorry, I didn't check it out yet.
KG

This is compelling stuff! It reads like a Hardy Boy mystery
Its no wonder that Humuhumu found those so quick, she is after all a "Special Tiki Central Agent"
I recall seeing those at Bali Hai and was bouncing in my seat until I got to Jackalopes post. Now what? Should, like the manager wake up one morning and find a bloody Tiki head in his bed? We know people who know people.

Well, apparently we at least know where your set came from. I still might try contacting the owners.

To go off on a semi related tangent for one moment, I'm still wondering about the original manufacturer and where all their treasures went, as we seem to have several pairs that up until very recently were still in use (The Traders and the Bali Hai)

And in particular, I'm kicking myself, as we just took this picture of the door handle (as others here in the thread already pointed out) with the same design, at the Bali Hai this past May-

The thing is, due to the camera angle, we can't compare flaws in the casting with what you've pointed out on the set you have.

Back in college, I did some bronze casting, and I'm very familiar with the process. So what I'm left wondering is to what extent the flaws you pointed out may be common across some or all examples of the handles OR are they utterly unique to that set?

Next time someone is at the Bali Hai, could you consider trying to get a straight on picture of the door handle? I'm really interested in whether or not the defect in the teeth for example, is common in these castings.

Also, what year did the Traders open? Can we date the doorhandles to the 50's like the Bali Hai, or are they a later addition? Any chance we narrow down manufacturers by a time period?

What a cool thread. I never looked before cause door handles arent the most exciting things generally.

Sound like you got a good deal, but the dude selling them was way dodgy. Perhaps the blury pics and not listing the restaurant cause he didnt want to get caught?

While we were at the new San Francisco Trader Vic's, Unga Bunga noted these doorpulls on the restrooms and snapped this pic. They're different from the other doorpulls, but what the hey, here they are:

That TV handle wasn't as close as I thought it was (Damn rum). I guess what caught my eye was that they are all doing the "Fonzie pose" (thumbs up). I guess that is a prerequisite for all Tiki door handles.

On 2005-09-22 02:44, Humuhumu wrote:
While we were at the new San Francisco Trader Vic's, Unga Bunga noted these doorpulls on the restrooms and snapped this pic. They're different from the other doorpulls, but what the hey, here they are:

Same as the outside doorhandles at the Jardin Tiki in Montreal! I have a pic of them too so I'm not the only nutcase on TC. (There're different tiki doorhandles inside.)

sorry to say but something else is now missing from Traders. My husband says one of the large witco pieces from the front is gone. We don't know if anything else is missing. I just don't know why they would be getting rid of this stuff, when we were there this summer everyone there seemed really excited about it, alot nicer than some of the places we have gone that have treated us like we were nutty.

On 2005-09-08 09:12, Jawa wrote:
Apparently it was also a hangout for local/visiting mafia types!

Not that this adds anything productive to this thread, but... so was the Mai Kai. Back in the days when I was a valet at the place we gave many pairs of keys to "shady types" who would proceed to transfer briefcases from one trunk to another. Normally, when the keys returned an extremely generous tip would follow. And that's just the tip of the iceberg!

Hey Sabu, I sent my brother this thread. He lives in Daytona. He had told me the hotel was getting some remodeling because of the Hurricane damage last year. I had told him to keep an eye out to see if they were getting rid of stuff. He figured he would stop in and see if they were selling anything else after reading this thread. Anyway here is the letter he sent me.

I went over to the hotel this morning and talked to the General Manager. Real nice guy but at first I had trouble getting him to believe that the door handles HAD been sold and I was asking if other stuff was for sale. He didnt know they were gone and thought they were in the back room during the remodel or out for polishing. He called one of the owners or at least someone higher than him right away and they talked a while. Then he asked if I could show him the site with the handles and I did on his office computer. He printed it all out and asked if i knew how to find out who the seller was. I told him I would ask if you could find out through the forum or if you knew the buyers ebay name we could search it that way and find the seller.
He showed me around the place and what they are doing. They are not getting rid of the old stuff, they are just freshing up everything. It has new black aluminum frame modern doors but that might be hurricane code now. The "Naked Lady" chairs had the seat cover redone but they are still in the lobby. The wall carvings are supposed to be in the store room. The Traders lounge is having bamboo door frames done and just cleaning up everything.(they were working today). The open beam ceilings will stay but he said they were goung to cover the spun fiberglass ceiling tiles but decided not to when they got the price. The Big Tiki head above the bar is supposed to be in the store room and the Witco Naked Lady chairs on each side of the entrance door will stay. After seeing the sellers name on the thread, He said it is the restaurant manager and he is already working to get the items back. He had one other item too. It is a cool 6x18" brass plate with a tiki relief, maybe was a door push panel. The GM said the hotel is still owned by the family that built it in 66-67 and want to keep it in the family and dont want things going missing. There was a cool custom remodeling sign with a Tiki wearing a construction hat and I told him to save it for me if possible. He picked it up and said "take it now".

So I guess the guy will be getting a hold of you to get them back to their rightful place.

i seem to recall that similair handles were and are still being sold at oceanic arts....on the wall with all the door handles there are some brass ones and though it's been awhile, i'm sure it was the same ones, cause I was looking to purchase them for the bathroom door handles at the rock-a-tiki when i was designing it....someone should hop over there and check it out...