Is this politics or art? (POLITICS, READ AT OWN RISK)

Hopefully we can soon turn our attention back to warfare exotica style - as done with the Hawaiian War Chant.....

"There's a sunny little, funny little melody
That was started by a native down in Waikiki
He would gather a crowd down beside the sea
And together they'd play his gay Hawaiin Chant

Soon the other little natives started singin' it
And the hula hula maidens starting swingin' it
Like a tropical storm that's the way it hit
Funny little gay Hawaiian chant

Ow way tah
Tualan
Me big bad
Fightin' man
............

Hula maidens - Yes!
Hussein madness - No!

Vern

I used to think Tiki Central was my "safe room". No plastic or duct tape required. Unfortunately some toxic crap seems to be seeping in. Quick -- cover your bodily orifices and douse this thread with 151.

Which reminds me, what tiki supplies - beyond overproof rum -- are essential in case of attack?

I guess this IS "Beyond Tiki", but...does it have to become like every newsgroup in Unsenet? Half the posts in my favorite music NGs are about the war - the war that hasn't happened yet.

urgh,
emspace.

Wha..? Waitaminnit, what happened since I was away? This is a clear counter action to my expressed wishes! Tiz tiz!
Well, I guess it proves that Tiki Centralites are not SHEEP and have their own opinions, I am proud of you. And now let's close this matter, I feel responsible for it and I say let's go back to silly business (which I thought the first post was).

"and now let's close this matter"

So it is written, so it shall be done.

Now Chief, unless you thought there were only Liberals on this board, you really can't be surprised by the response engendered by the molotov cocktail you lobbed in here!

I tip my hat to my worthy opponents.

[ Edited by: floratina on 2003-02-28 07:17 ]

On 2003-02-26 23:33, floratina wrote:
I must ask, where were all the liberals when Clinton went into Bosnia without UN approval? They weren't marching in the streets then.

Many of today's protesters were still in junior high school back then. Now, as young adults, they understand that a small group of individuals can voice their opinions and possibly change the world. Perhaps when they get older they will be wise enough to understand that the only solution to political disagreement is violence. Go Get'em Georgie!

So, I will voice my opinion and state that until my tree-hugging friends are old enought to join me for a mai-tai, I will join them on the back porch and enjoy a cigarette (what's so bad about oil anyway?) by the pool.

Let's change the world. Does anyone want to sign my petition for the Broadway revival of South Pacific?

[ Edited by: Thor on 2003-03-05 14:04 ]

Man, I wish I had never opened this post!

Sven, despite your recent posting, I have to wonder about your motives initially. And I think it's safe to say that had it not been your posting, it probably would have been locked down by now.

This is obviously way "beyond Tiki". And I fail to see the point in any of it.

Hell, boys and girls, we can walk out our door or turn on our tv's and hear this crap! Frankly, I don't see the point in dragging it in here. Obviously some people do. And that is fine, I guess. But for me, this isnt why I'm in here.

Amen Stingray, Thor, floratina, Bong, Kailuageoff, Vern...if the papers, TV and water-cooler philosophizing ain't enough, you could go to Usenet and read every ramification of every nitpicking aspect of each iota of minutiae concerning both sides of the issue, from people from the entire spectrum of leftness, rightness, and middleness, some of whom we must tactfully refer to as "reality-impaired".

One thing certain: opinions are like fundamental orifices: everybody's got one. "Beyond Tiki" was way happier when I used it to find out that Mano Tiki Tia loves chicken-monkeys...

aloha,
em

I can see how this thread relates to Beyond Tiki. Didn't Tiki originally emerge from the experiences of war? It was definately a case of when you have lemons, make lemonade (with Rum!). In our present situation, I wish that creative recipes would be concocted. War is the twist-off Budweiser. Pacifist diplomacy takes more ingredients, variation, and preparation--but it makes the better flavored drink.

[ Edited by: manic cat on 2003-03-06 09:40 ]

I know Sven didn't intend to start the kind of discussion that occured in this thread, but the best thing to do if you don't like these kinds of discussions harshing your tiki central buzz is to not bring up politics at all. I love a good argument and if I read comments like were posted in this thread then I can't help myself - I'm going to respond. And if it does happen again, just skip the thread if it doesn't interest you.

I think the reason why the Beyond Tiki forum was created was to keep the discussion in the main forum centered on the topics we came here to discuss. I don't think Hanford should have to police what gets discussed in the Beyond Tiki forum too.

To bring it back a bit into the realm of silliness.. I just saw a favorite Star Trek episode last night in a whole different light "City on the Edge of Forever" - the one with Joan Collins... remember Spock saying, "Edith Keeler must die."

To refresh your memory on the synopsis and the moral of the story, check out this page
http://www.trek47.com/tos/epguide/pn28.html

Fun sound bytes: http://trekwavs.topcities.com/28.html

Futura Girl,

Thanks for a bit of fresh air. My mellow was beginning to get marshed!

Saw a funny bumper sticker today:
"HE IS NOT MY PRESIDENT"

...ouh-hrrrmpf...douuu!...sorry, it just slipped out, I didn't really wanna post this!
Just forget it, let's end it here...

I believe they meant Clinton. I saw that one years ago.

Well, this pearl wearing Republican certainly feels unwelcome. Before I get the vapors, I must now retire to the veranda for a mint julep. Or 2. Or 3...

What's funniest to me about these sorts of discussions is that both sides believe they "know" the facts, when, in fact, all any of us knows is what we know, which is not necessarily fact nor is it necessarily complete.

As we all know, people with an opinion on something look at any given situation and generally see what they want to see or see what they expect to be there.

But what do any of us truly know about the intentions of Hussein or this guy or that guy? What do any of us really know about what weapons are out there, how devastating they can be, and to whom? Is what's commonly (or even uncommonly) known anywhere near a complete picture? The answer is obviously 'no' simply because of classification of intelligence.

No matter what CNN or anybody else reports, there's a million times more information that's part of the big picture and that must be considered.

The point is there are always going to be those who want peace at all costs, those who want war at all costs, and those who either want peace or want war, but only as a last resort.

In reality, though, there are no simple answers to whether or not the U.S. or any other entity should act as a global policeman.

As has been said so many times in so many different circumstances, the world is a smaller place these days. Everybody is our neighbor, just as we are theirs.

If you overheard your neighbor saying that he bought a gun and was going to kill his wife, you'd call the cops. But there aren't cops in that sense on a global scale.

So, as I wrote when I started, it's a tough decision that, while we can all have an opinion about it, I don't think any of us as "everyday citizens" could possibly have enough information to say which decision...to act pre-emptively or to abstain from war...is the better decision.

Most likely there isn't a better or worse, right or wrong. There are only decisions, actions, and consequences, regardless of which side of the fence each of us is on.

A6

[ Edited by: A6Louie on 2003-03-09 00:02 ]

On 2003-03-07 18:45, suzywong wrote:
Well, this pearl wearing Republican certainly feels unwelcome. Before I get the vapors, I must now retire to the veranda for a mint julep. Or 2. Or 3...

Tiki knows no politics.
There are other pearl wearers here, too. Pearls are tiki! You are welcome here.

Futura Girl wrote:

...There are other pearl wearers here, too...

WOOHOO! You go (futura)girl!

NaughtyCaddyDaddy

On 2003-03-08 23:57, A6Louie wrote:
What's funniest to me about these sorts of discussions is that both sides believe they "know" the facts[ Edited by: A6Louie on 2003-03-09 00:02 ]

Yes, yes, YES!!! A6, you are a heretic, and in the best way possible! You are echoing exactly what I've been trying to tell the knee-jerk anti-Americans around here, with their ludicrous self-righteousness and certainty that they have the Facts and are smugly occupying the moral high ground.

What, do they know Saddam and Uday personally? Do they know Mr. Bush, have intimate conversations with Donald Rumsfeld? KRAP!!! They have the same info as everyone else (unless they're certifiably paranoid, which there's nothing anyone can do about), but they filter it through their biases and have their minds made up LONG before any war even breaks out. Mostly, they just parrot sixth-hand propaganda, but feelthey must have thought of it themselves. That's the beauty of propaganda.

I for one am sick of this self-righteous "I have the Truth" pose; it's especially galling because when I was a dumb kid I used to behave like that, and long ago made the stunning discovery that people mature enough to admit they DON'T have all the answers found it really annoying and were embarrassed for me. Now it's not only common but de rigeur for grown adults to shriek their "truth" in the face of anyone who'll spare the time to listen, and moreoever, expect you to agree; in fact if you don't agree, you're a "Fascist", a "hawk", a "gun nut","ignorant trailer trash". The death of dialog and the imposition of a guilt-based system of psychic repression requiring nothing less than absolute conformity and obedience.

How the hell did we ever let "give peace a chance" come to this? Where successful people are reviled, "property is theft", and people feel they have the right to tell each other what kind of car to drive? This constant, insistent intrusion into our private lives by complete strangers - how the hell did we let it happen?

just utterly dismayed,
emspace :-?

I have a sunburn.

On 2003-03-10 16:25, Thor wrote:
I have a sunburn.

That was the fastest trip to and from Kauai ever accomplished! :)
em

On 2003-03-10 12:37, emspace wrote:
the knee-jerk anti-Americans around here

P.S. I had better add: by "around here", I mean "in my life", not "in Tiki Central". Nuff said.

aloha,
em

em...

I hear ya loud and clear ya.

Hey, I'm all for peace, too, but I certainly believe that sometimes war is the only option.

For instance, if 100,000 people are coming to your country with guns and they want to kill your family...war is a pretty good option.

If a maniac who paid large sums of cash to a pissed off ex military type to get a small van-load of weapons grade nuclear materials and all he's waiting for to push the button is the 'scientists' to finish building the damn thing...war is a pretty good option.

With rational people peace is always the best way to go.

With people who are insane or filled with so much hatred that they can't even see the truth that even their own armies have NO desire to be a part of their mad plans...well, war may happen, and you either join in and take the risks, or you get killed.

I don't like the idea of anybody losing their life over a difference in religious and political ideals...for obvious reasons, the very thought of warring over God is utterly ridiculous...but let's face it: War today is not about occupation and land. People who hate want their enemies dead, not enslaved or pushed aside.

I hope that we will never see a nuclear war. And I hope that the volatility in the Middle East and parts of Asia will, somehow, disappear.

But I would much rather see this country stop a madman before he has the ability to do something terrible...even if it means the entire rest of the world hates the U.S. and thinks we're assholes...than see those terrible things happen and regret it later.

Saving face is a pretty cowardly reason to avoid standing up to a group of nutjobs.

Of course, many people will say "Saddam has no intentions of doing anything bad...we just want that oil" or "Do you know how many horrible things our government has done?" and so on.

You'd have to be naive to think that the benefit of possibly cheaper (and unthreatened) oil supplies isn't very appealing. And yes, I'm sure our government has done many horrible things that I wouldn't really like to think about. But neither of those reasons justify looking the other way in the face of danger.

There are bad people in the world and sometimes you have to be bad to get rid of bad. That's the way it is.

Ideally, yes, I would love to believe that peace can overcome those who hate and wish to destroy others because of their beliefs or color or financial status or what have you. Tragically, history has proven otherwise.

A6

ALthough this discussion is never going to end, (and this post isn't helping any) did you ever stop and think that it's debate like this that make your country great? In some countries, you aren't allowed to have an opinion at all.

It's OK if the points of the debate are never resolved. After all, it's the debate itself that is the point.

(But does it belong on the Tiki Central board? Hmmm.)

I will say this and I am done...period.

TikiFish, I agree 100%!

Should we go to war, should we not? I'd rather not! But that was not my point! I mean, politics are not my thing. I'm just not that educated. I try not to think about it.

I have my own views, as does everyone else.

My only point and reply to this was that this was posted "Politics or art?", when it is very obvious WHAT it was.

If those are your views, and you feel the need to compaire our administration to Nazis, that is your opinion to which everyone is entitled.
But if that is your view, then say it! Don't disguise it and ask if it's art when clearly it is not and you have a strong enough opinion to bring it here to begin with!

That would be like me putting up a similar post with a link to some PORN site! Hey, I may feel very differently about porn than you...but is it art? No! It's porn! "I just wanted to share it, but I really don't want a discussion about it."
BULL SH-T!

So, in closing I simply say this: Have the BALLS to say whatever you feel you have to say because in THIS county, you're allowed to do so! Americans have died so you CAN do so here and so you can in other parts of the world. (Of course, some would prefer it be said in the newsgroups...)
Don't pussyfoot around and ask if it's art when the answer is obvious! And if you don't want a discussion, then don't bring it up!

And Jab, you're absolutely right! You know, I don't have to read or respond to anything. And I've learned my lesson.

-C.

Kill the killers, hate the haters, rape the rapers, mug the muggers, hit the hitters, slap the slappers, insult the insulters, punch the punchers, kick the kickers, abort the abortionists, all in the name of peace and love!

Who said anything about peace and love? (insert bong hit noise and AR-15 charger slam here). :)

"May the Blessing of the Bomb and the Fellowship of the Holy Fallout descend upon us all"

[ Edited by: Atomic Cocktail on 2003-03-21 18:38 ]

You maniacs! You blew it up! Damn You, Damn you all to hell!

Mary Margaret,
I was watching "Planet of the Apes" today too.
Mahalo,
Al

damn protesters!!!! Took me an hour to go through a 5 minute stretch of Long Beach on Sat.! Arggggggggg!

RevBambooBen,

You will be receiving US aid for your suffering in about 36 hours.

-Thor W. Heyerdahl

..But if you're caught with it you will have your tounge cut out of your head and handed to your family by Saddam's secret police prior to their execution for your horrid crimes against the Baath Party. :(

....if they all took the "time" and put it to "community service"...just think?