A 'lil rant on criticisim

See below.

[ Edited by: foamy 2006-12-15 05:00 ]

Foamy,

I don't know Grog, but, I know and understand his humor. In the particular thread that I believe you are referring to, it is Grog's envy of the talent within the particular artist, not criticism, that is portrayed.

Mahalo

Did you read the above post? What didn't you understand? I'll fix it if people aren't understanding it. Or, maybe I should just retract the whole damn thing.

[ Edited by: foamy 2006-12-14 12:27 ]

What kind of criticism do you want?

I break up criticism on self made art into a few different categories.

*Technique- if you are carving perhaps the cuts arent deep enough or maybe the piece didnt get much past the rough stage and should have been cleaned up more. Maybe you are brushing on stain when you should be ragging it on. But even in the technique its an opinion. There is no right way just perhaps a way that many agree upon.

*Style- This is another one that is kinda tough. If you are deliberately trying to copy a particular style then I suppose it could be graded on how well you do that. If its your own style or own design then who is to say that it is good or bad? It could be a style that the vocal minority like or it could be a style that is only appreciated by a select few who choose not to say anything.

*Purpose- Lets say you were designing a mug that only held 5 ounces of liquid but you intended to be a full sized tiki mug.. I would say make it bigger. Say you made a tiki bench that couldnt hold the weight of the person using it.. I would say make it stronger. But most artwork doesnt have a purpose. Its just for display.

*Money- If you are trying make stuff to sell then in the end you WILL know if you did it right cause people will pay what you ask and you will sell all of them. If you must lower your price or have a hard time selling then that still doesnt mean you did anything wrong but maybe just havent found the right place to sell your product. There is a buyer for every product at the right price.

Criticism also defies the concept of hobby art because most of us dont make a living doing it and want to enjoy it. If we were told our artwork sucked for reasons X Y and Z then it might diminish the enjoyment or discourage people from doing it all together.

If you want criticism I would ask very specific questions. How can I make the finish more rich? How do I stop the cracking? My mug mold doesnt pull off correctly how should I modify the sculpt.

Regarding Grog.... Im not sure what post is being mentioned but I have personally seen his professional portfolio (he gets paid to be an artist for a living) and would wager that he might one of the best artists on Tiki Central. His work is fantastic.

On 2006-12-14 12:07, foamy wrote:
Somebody just shoot me. I don’t get it. Then again, that’s nothing new. I don’t know of any artist, craftsman or anyone exercising their talent, that doesn’t like and or need constructive criticisim. I used to ask for when I started posting my stuff. Nobody gave it. I stopped asking. I tried giving it. That went over like a lead balloon. Very much like GROG’s suggestion’s. Which were right on the money. The artist never got a chance to reply, everybody else sure as hell did though. When did they all become aces? I’m sure everyone thinks GROG’s giving the thread the finger is GROG’s way of disrespecting the work. I don’t know GROG, but if that was his real intent, do you think that would be his first move? I suspect if he didn’t like it he just wouldn’t bother. I don’t think many people here have a clue. Everybody’s all touchy,”How dare he criticise that work!” Get over it. There’s a lot, repeat, a lot of folks here that could or should benefit by constuctive criticisim. Me, especially. People pay good money for that kind of insight. Here, any sort of critique is rejected out of hand. Let me reiterate: I just don’t get it.

Okay. Blast away.

[ Edited by: Monkeyman 2006-12-14 12:44 ]

On 2006-12-14 12:34, Monkeyman wrote:
What kind of criticism do you want?

I break up criticism on self made art into a few different categories.

...

If you want criticism I would ask very specific questions. How can I make the finish more rich? How do I stop the cracking? My mug mold doesnt pull off correctly how should I modify the sculpt.

That's very well stated.

I see a lot of stuff with a final line of "Tell me what you think?" or "Any advice is appreciated." What should I say? "It looks awful." "I can't believe you posted that." "Kewl" or maybe "Give it up." I mean, it's impossible to interpret, so, for the most part, the status quo on TC is to be silent unless you say nice things. Value judgements are not called for.

So, more direct questions might get better responses. Although, that can be hard to articulate on these forums.

I got a ton of help at Coon Tiki when I could go over various problem areas of a carving with Danny or BK or Ben or Al watching and immediately show me what I was doing wrong and how to do it right. That's why I thought doing that event was so important. You cannot come close to that sort of hands on advice over the 'net.

So, it may be tough to get much useful critique here.

Nevermind.

[ Edited by: foamy 2006-12-14 13:24 ]

Foamy: Your point was sound & understood.

Constructive criticism is fine as long as it IS constructive & given by someone who knows what they are talking about*.

As a fully qualified Daddy* & a non-qualified but experienced carving tutor I do know one thing: The most important thing for anybody learning anything is ENCOURAGEMENT. I believe the role of the (good) teacher is much undervalued & even a little misunderstood. The words of the teacher (& here I am referring to anyone who takes it upon themselves to offer 'constructive criticism') can make or break the spirit of the student, so must be chosen carefully. In contrast, the average TC 'Prop' is fine encouragement & humour.

Again: Educated, constructive criticism is fine & I dont think there's anyone here who would disagree.

My 2 cents (worth about .4c US)

Tama

i know grog. i know he was giving the finger in fun and probably because he's jealous he doesn't live in hawaii. i wish everyone would be as helpful as ernie, especially talented professionals who know more about light, structure and balance in art than i will ever, ever know.

everyone should be lucky enough to get to know grog. i agree with monkeyman, he's probably one of the most talented people on TC. he also has one of the best senses of humor i've seen in a person.

foamy, you're also a hell of an artist. i'll critisize your stuff anytime you want. i'll start now . . .

needs more red.

man, work stresses me out enough. don't need it here. i get critisized all day long for my crappy art at work.

Criticism is great as long as it is constructive and supportive/encouraging. Benz is the master at it, as far as I am concerned. I know Ive PMd Benz a few times with questions, and hes PMd me back with pics with cut lines and stuff. Bloody hard online, but he makes it work somehow.

Honestly, I dont think TC has enough constructive criticism. HEAPS of support and encouragement, but the criticism is lacking. Whether we are here as hobbyists (like me) or full time professional carvers, as artists we all basically aim to perform to the best of our abilities, no I actually mean to increase our abilities.

On the other hand I dont give constructive criticism on here myself, because its not the "done thing". Sometimes I PM close mates with feedback because I know they can "take it", but I dont do it as a general rule.

On the pinstriping forums Im on, most of the guys are full time pros. They give great feedback to people. I take a minute to think about their perspective/feedback. Often I agree, sometimes I just think "thats not what Im trying to acheive". I dont take it personally.

How about, people who want criticism say so when you post your art. That way people will know you're okay with getting it. On the same hand it should only be constructive and encouraging (but not candy coated too much).

I dont know what Foamy posted, but I think its something that we should discuss.

I'll second that one. I know I'm guilty of telling people that their stuff is great, but not offering critiques. While I'm being sincere when I offer my praises, sometimes I'll see little things as an objective observer that could be tweaked just a little and help things along, but I hold my tongue.

I know if that I've posted on here and asked what the TC Ohana thought, I got great compliments (I'll take them, don't get me wrong) but I'd also like to hear the constructive feed back as well.

I guess my perspective is that I am my worst critic.

I always disect every error and discrepancy to death. I hand over stuff to customers that I think is riddled with problems and errors. They often gush with praise because they like it and dont see the minutia that I do.

but thats just me. If someone posts a crappy carving expecting praise then perhaps they need to evaluate their fellow carvers work to get a better sense of what is good and what is not so good.

Its just such a personal perspective... its hard to nail down right wrong good and bad.

The best advice is given to a direct and specific question.

If you're gonna put stuff out there and want to grow as any type of artist you should be prepared for some criticism. I don't think it's cool to slam peoples work,but a little suggestion may go a long way. Sometimes this place gets a little too thin skinned. I think the comments made to any artist should be free from malicious intent and simply made to express the commenter's opinion of the art.
Great thread by the way.
Cheers.

matt, while great and welcoming, your backyard is way too far down the stairs. you should move it up closer.

[ Edited by: pdrake 2006-12-14 20:05 ]

I concur.... my constructive crit for Matt is please get about 2 cubic ACRES of fill dirt and raise your backyard...

or simply lower your house about 30 feet.

Or install an escalator.

Or get Perry a plastic sled and we can send him down the iceplant to the backyard grass.....

I will build the jump out of plywood for his epic sledding descent.

i'm sooo there!!

Foamy: A constructive comment: Why not put the title back? People are discussing it anyway..?

Tama :)

Many good points here. When we ask for feedback on our work, I think we're all generally receptive to constructive criticism (or should be). Tiki Shark asked for feedback, Grog provided it, and it seemed pretty thoughtful and constructive (the written part I mean - not sure where the finger came in...). I just didn't see where Tiki Shark had a problem with it. I'm sorry Foamy retracted his original post - it made sense to me.

Sorry, I didn't know about this thread when I posted the following onTikishark's thread (and yes I know it's not third person GROGspeak.)

Yes, I joke with Brad because he's a friend, and I really respect and admire his work. But I also think it is important as a fellow artist to help other artists to improve their work, and "Oh that looks great" isn't always the best way to help them. Especially if you see something they may not. It's not easy for artists to be objective about their own work, so it's good to have another objective eye see it. Try flipping a drawing over and light it from behind. You'll see your drawing has more mistakes than you thought.

So many people post stuff and ask for criticism, and I mean "constructive" criticism, but nobody really seems to really give any on the board. I find good, constructive criticism an important part of growing as an artist. If everybody always just says, "Oh that looks great!", it may help with the artist's confidence, but it doesn't really help them improve their skill or to be able to look at their own stuff with an objective eye. In animation, my artwork is criticized every day. It's not easy
always having people tell me what's wrong with my art, but I'm a much better artist for it. I think "criticism" has a negative connotation, and there definitely is negative criticism, so I think most non-artists not used to having their art "constructively" criticized view any sort of criticism as negative. And since most of the people on TC aren't professional artists and aren't used to having their art critiqued all the time, I think the majority are shy about giving and receiving constructive criticism. Brad(Tikishark) is a professional, and I know he would appreciate good constructive criticism.Criticism is also very tricky to give, because it can have negative effects even if it was meant in a positive way if worded wrong or taken in the wrong way which is another reason I believe people on TC steer away from it. I appreciate you standing up for me, and I know the right people will understand how I meant my critique.

Thanks-------Ernie

And I agree------Encouragement is a very valuable part of it as well.

[ Edited by: GROG 2006-12-14 21:49 ]

grog need more rogaine. sorry, just trying to help.

As far as criticism goes Pdrake and MM are way out of line. Those stairs are only there because I had the yard lowered. Jeez, it's the only way I could think of to get in shape every time I want a drink. Besides a little "suffering for your art" is good for the soul eh? (Friggin' wisenheimers).
Cheers.

..sounds like a broken record...i believe i bitched about this very thing in a post long ago about how people sugar coat critisim as opposed to giving an honest assessment or opinion.....even if they don't know what they are talking about, at least it keeps folks on their toes and the juices flowing....sometimes my opinions of others work can be harsh, but you must realize that they are not value judgements, just my opinion....and i expect the same in return from all of you as well in regards to my work....if your critisism is correct i will humbly except it...if not, i will waste no time in embarassing you and your lack of insight/knowledge in front of all your tiki friends here on tc.....again, i will expect the same from you!!

shutup and drink

On 2006-12-15 07:16, Tipsy McStagger wrote:
...even if they don't know what they are talking about, at least it keeps folks on their toes and the juices flowing....
quote]

*You want honest opinions Tipsy?
-I think this is the dumbest statement I have heard on the topic! Just my opinion. I may not know what Im talking about though... duh

Tama

when you get over yourself...go back and think about what i'm really saying and it should be obvious that any dialogue is good dialoge that keeps the channels open....new ideas and insights are often stumbled upon in the course of critisisms if one is willing to read between the lines. anything said can be a source of inspiration.

Not upset by my 'harsh opinion' are you? Thought that's what you wanted..?

*Ive been back & thought about it & still disagree. I just dont accept that 'any dialogue is good dialogue' & also feel that reading 'between the lines' is a pretty difficult task in a forum like this. If there is insight to be gleaned 'between', why not just write it ON the lines. People arent mindreaders...

I maintain that CONSTRUCTIVE criticism is valid, but why not tone down the 'harshness'? Did you read what I said about encouragement?

As for 'getting over myself', Ill need further explaination; just cant make out what's between the lines. Exactly what must I get over? Im only trying to help.

Tama

As the Monkeyman touched on, the problem with criticism on TC is that we all do this stuff out of love. Comments hurt. It's exactly like having someone say your kid is ugly. Them saying your kid is cute works a leetle bit better, even if the kid's face scares woodchucks.

By the time anybody posts anything here it's usually a completed piece. The criticism is way too late, which makes it more frustrating. That's why pictures of Tikis in progress are so interesting, Benz for one seems to zero in on those.

And, there's no way around it, if you ask for opinions yer gonna get them. It's interesting how everybody has a different perspective, I'd focus on that more than who says what and why.

Also, that drawing of GROG giving somebody, anybody, the finger is a loose cannon. I've had the dubious pleasure of meeting GROG more than once and can attest he never gave me the finger, never even tried. He tells a pretty good Sinatra joke, though.

Finally - Matt's backyard is worth the climb. Here's a critical suggestion, though, again to riff on MM; why not put in a BIG STEEL SLIDE? Then you got one direction covered, anyway.

Tama, I dont think people have to be experts to give criticism. The more experience people have, the better equipped they are to give technical advice eg. try this tool, try this method etc etc. But most people can give feedback like it looks too plain, unbalanced, not tiki enough etc etc.

On 2006-12-14 20:54, GROG wrote:
my artwork is criticized every day. It's not easy always having people tell me what's wrong with my art, but I'm a much better artist for it. I think "criticism" has a negative connotation, and there definitely is negative criticism, so I think most non-artists not used to having their art "constructively" criticized view any sort of criticism as negative.

Criticism is also very tricky to give, because it can have negative effects even if it was meant in a positive way if worded wrong or taken in the wrong way which is another reason I believe people on TC steer away from it.

And I agree------Encouragement is a very valuable part of it as well.

That's the whole thing in a nutshell. The whole thing is to encourage and instruct—if possible, without giving offense. I'd like to see this forum become a resource for people looking to not only show their work, but to learn and grow as artists, as well. There's certainly plenty of talent and desire here and plenty of pro's able to help an aspiring artist along. That is, "if" they're willing to give advice and "if" they're willing to take it, in the spirit in which it is intended.

Just to clarify: Grog's "finger" is a sarcastic CARTOON finger. I'm always honored to get it. It's all in jest and a symbol of his approval.

I don't post my stuff in progress for critique. Although it's important for the growth of an artist I prefer a one-on-one as opposed to a public forum.

I make my living as a commercial sculptor and deal with clients who want a specific "product". Many times the piece will go through several committes or individuals who all get input. If I'm translating another artist into 3-d, I always get their critique as well. It just wouldn't make sense not to consider and implement their input. I would be out of business if I didn't.

Wanna know which artists are the pickiest?...well I ain't tellin'. I'm a "professional". :)

So...when I finally get time to do my own mug designs or drawings, frankly I don't want to hear any critique until it's finished. It's selfish "me" time and I would never finish it if I considered that much input. If it's something I will eventually sell, my bank account will offer the ultimate critique.

But, if I ever change my mind and decide to post for critique, I hope I get the finger.

On 2006-12-15 17:43, hewey wrote:
But most people can give feedback like it looks too plain, unbalanced, not tiki enough etc etc.

Yes, but this sort of feedback isnt what I would call 'constructive criticism', but subjective 'value-judgement'. How does 'too plain' or 'not tiki enough' help anyone? 'Unbalanced' is more along the lines of constructive criticism as it uses established 'art-speak' to point out a particular aspect of a carving. Remember highschool art class; line/tone/form/shape etc...

Not wanting to make enemies here; I just know how hard/harsh it can be to hear negative feedback when putting work up for appraisal, esp when new to a craft.

Of course all are free to say whatever they like about a work.
Perhaps Foamy was right; non-topic, or moot-point: perhaps there will always be this irreconsilable difference of opinion..?

Tama

We are lucky to have artists the caliber of Squid and Grog here on TC. Very very lucky.

That is not intended to slight the rest of us who pursue it for semi-fun but in reality we dont starve if our art sux....

We just file it away in our garage and try again.

Foamy's original question is totally legit and I hope that someday we can benefit from each others critical eye.

There are already enough fights and rubbernecking on TC lets get along on this one.

/popcorn

Sung to the Shirley Bassey's "Goldfinger"

Grogfinger
He's the man, the man with the Neanderthal touch
A caveman touch
Such a cold finger
Beckons you to enter his cave of sin
But don't go in

stone age words he will pour in your ear
But his grunts can't disguise what you fear
For a tiki artist knows when he's dissed them
It's the diss of death ...

From Mister Grogfinger
tiki artist, beware of his heart of stone
This heart is stone

Stone age words he will pour in your ear
But his grunts can't disguise what you fear
For a tiki artist knows when he's dissed them
It's the diss of death ...

From Mister Grogfinger
tiki artist, beware of his heart of stone
This heart is stone
He loves only stone
Only stones
He loves stones
He loves only stones
Only stones
He loves stones.

You know we love ya Groggie. One day I hope my art will recieve the Grog FInger
Chongolio

Lost-Isle
Coconut Wired Podcast
Barefoot bloggin'

Grogs middle Finger is kinda like this pic.

You can take it either way!!!

p.s. enough with the anal babble. Just get to work and create!!! Make a million things! Good or bad! Just create man!! Create!!!!!

Arrr!!!

Hear, hear: the last two posts...

Peace. Tama :)

yeah dammit, shutup and create.

and drink

I love getting feed back. Getting waves of glowing love is what keeps you going sometimes. But, also there are some very MAJOR talents on TC. Artists who are world class level. They are where I would like to be as an artist, and if I can get pointers from them, that's freaking fantastic. And, if any yahoo throws spit balls, it's just a laugh. Artist have to put their stuff out there sooner or later. that's part of the game. You gota know your art isn't going to be for everyone.

The best reaction an artist can get is ANY reaction. People love it or hate it. the worst reaction is having people not remember your work at all.

I always knew Grog's middle finger was actually a thumbs up.

Heard this many many many many moons ago on the Lower East Side !!!!

"Art is what a sucker, oops I mean customer will pay you" !!!!!

what if the creator posting that wants some feedback asks a question that they want answered or a choice maybe. Should I do this or will this be better if I do this or that.

don't we all like to go shopping with a friend so that they can help us decide.

Well, by now we all know that this seems to be a very touchy subject. It seems everyone wants feedback and not necessarily criticism. While I am probably the biggest offender of "Sugar coating" my feedback, I do it for many reasons. Probably the Number One reason being that a Tiny bit of negative criticism turns into a Mountain before long, even though most of it comes in humorously. We All know that negative posts get out of hand and the suffering artist reads all that crap and may likely never post on TC again and may well never pick up a tool again. I personally like to mentor and promote sculpture and I enjoy prodding young artists as well as the seasoned ones. I just believe a bit of sugar goes a Lot further than a bit of vinegar. I prefer to show by example or if I have a stern critique, it will usually be in the form of a PM and not for the general public. I Know we are all big boys and girls but it just isn't that easy. Like most of the seasoned artists I can see flaws in my work that No one else would possibly notice and I see the same flaws in everyone else's work. Most everyone else sees a lot of flaws that they don't deem problematic and are no big deal. Every art work has flaws in it and as we grow as artists, we learn to see those flaws and learn how to correct them. Weather we do or not depends on the piece. Some art is intentionally rough, quick and has no thought given for any further refinement. An artist can spend hours and hours going after every little flaw and refining and refining it to death, (I am headed toward that with my current piece)but that

What Benz said.

What Squid said.

Succinct Wisdom in every word Ben!

On 2006-12-18 07:52, Benzart wrote:
Every art work has flaws in it and as we grow as artists, we learn to see those flaws and learn how to correct them.

As someone that's pretty new, getting tips on flaws and how to correct them from experienced carvers is an incredible experience, and something I treasure. I do appreciate Ben's way of sugar coating things, as it's always nice to hear good things about what you're doing, but from what I've seen he's able to tell you different ways you can do things, in case you are looking for improvement.

Having this forum to get encouragement and tips on improving is the biggest difference between my carving and all my other abandoned hobbies. Without encouragement and ways of learning to improve, I find it very difficult to stick with things.

I'm a musician so I don't know a lot about the world of carving and painting and whatnot, but I can tell you for sure that about nine times out of ten when someone asks you what you think of something, they really don't want to know what you think unless it's what they want to hear. They have already decided what's right and what's wrong with their art and they're just looking to you for validation. If you don't give it to them, then problems ensue.

People who are serious about their art and dedicated to improving will learn not only how to produce that art but to evaluate that art as objectively as possible. Those that don't either have a terrible time succeeding artistically or, if they happen to have a metric buttload of natural talent, end up being the nutcase geniuses like Van Gogh or Jim Morrison.

Separating taste from actual knowledge is hard to do. You have to have a certain about of knowledge about the craft to be able to look beyond whether or not a particular piece appeals to you and see the level of artistry behind it, and even then it's hard. To me, giving constructive criticism is a two way relationship of trust. If you ask me for feedback, you have to trust my opinion, and my good will and objectivity. I have to trust that you're actually asking for real criticism and that you won't hold my opinions against me. I will never ask anyone what they thought about something I did unless I have this relationship of trust and I feel they're qualified to evaluate my work.

Unless I have this kind of relationship with someone, when asked for criticism about nine times out of ten I'll say "hey, that's great! Keep up the good work!" I figure that since I'm pretty sure that they don't really care what my opinion is, the best thing I can do for them is to offer encouragement. It's also been my experience that just about anyone can succeed to some degree in artistic endevours if they're willing to put in the time.

What Rev. Griz said.

I admire a guy who drinks Jim Beam in Utah. All liquor store owned and run by the state, not open on Sundays, or election days, or..........