Where's the beef?

Bigbro, I must say you are the most passive aggressive poster here on TC - you don't like political threads, but then you always end your statement with something contentious that's sure to feed the fires again!

Quite frankly, you are a sh*t disturber! Not that it's a bad thing... but I thought Id point it out, since it's 7 am and I don't have anything better to do.

Ahooooooha!!!

I couldn't resist...

Sven,

I have to ask in all seriousness. Did the people of Germany appreciate us liberating them from their leader Hitler. I mean there are some similarities between the people of Iraq ostensibly adoring Saddam and the German people, at that time, adoring Hitler.

Do you think the people of Iraq will appreciate the US effort as much as the German population did?

man, like I said before ,Idont like any politicians here or there.I dont know ,and for that matter I'm sure noone else here knows the entire reason why we are bombing the shit outta Iraq but I can come up with one good reason. when you got thousands of grown men, and now women arising to the call of a bullshit "JIHAD" willing to blow themselves up for a Brutal loonie ass religious leader ,or dictator and take a lot of innocent lives along with them thats good enough for me.I think we need to lay off the drugs and lose the dumb Idea to think we can "talk this out" no not with these people we cant. deal W/ those jealous bass ackwards towel head motherfu@#ers a blow so hard that not only will obliterate them all ,but all those funny middle eastern countries who pretend to be our friends like Saudi Arabia ,and at the same time financially support those cocksuckers think twice before they ever help them again .this has to be done before they use our Freedom and liberty to attack us again. sometimes the truth hurts, and this time it,s hurting Iraqi monsters and I love it. Jaksin lover of peaceful barroom brawls and hater of BIG dick -tators........

On 2003-04-02 09:54, Tiki_Bong wrote:
Sven,

I have to ask in all seriousness. Did the people of Germany appreciate us liberating them from their leader Hitler. I mean there are some similarities between the people of Iraq ostensibly adoring Saddam and the German people, at that time, adoring Hitler.

Do you think the people of Iraq will appreciate the US effort as much as the German population did?

Seriously: No. The way of life in islamic nations is sooo different from the Western world that our logic and reason (Dictator gone = grateful populace) just does not apply.
I dare to say that while a minority in Irak may recognize this as an attack on Saddam, a majority sees it as an attack on Islam, their home, their innermost beliefs.
After Saddam will be gone there will be an endless religious war against whatever regime the US puts in power.

Sven,

I see your point.

When will the US learn? It's okay for Muslims to slaughter each other in droves...an attempt by Westerners to impose something like stability and democracy on a mostly-Muslim nation is "an attack on Islam".

No wonder the war's dragged out for 2 weeks! The Coalition is spread out all the way from Senegal to Indonesia, attacking Islam...

:roll:, emspace.

emspace,

You assume that these people want democracy, and that is a dangerous assumption. As this discussion clearly illustrates, political beliefs are a lot like religion -- not everyone agrees on what is "right," but everyone thinks THEY are right.

Unfortunately, their hatred of US values is based in their religious as well as political beliefs, and war is only going to reinforce that hatred. If France came over here, started a war, deposed of Bush, and instituted their form of democracy because they decided it was better than what we were living under, would you, after the war, rejoice in your "better" democracy and love the French?

And that scenario doesn't even touch your religious beliefs.

Religion makes people do crazy, stupid things, from terrorist attacks to the murder of abortion doctors. Look at the Spanish Inquisition for proof that it's not just Islamist fundamentalists.

This war is not the end, but only the very beginning, and I hope everyone who is so fervently supporting the war is going to support the total rebuilding of Iraq and the likely higher taxes that are going to come as a result of it.

Although, now that I think about it, maybe after Saddam, we should throw down on the Pope and go after those bloodthirsty Roman Catholics... we may very well be preventing the next inquisition! If not that, we should at least go after all the Southern Baptists lunatics here in the US before they kill another doctor or bomb another clinic. :wink:

-Mike

Eye-popping fun!

[ Edited by: TheMuggler on 2003-04-02 15:28 ]

On 2003-04-02 15:27, TheMuggler wrote:
emspace,

You assume that these people want democracy, and that is a dangerous assumption. As this discussion clearly illustrates, political beliefs are a lot like religion -- not everyone agrees on what is "right," but everyone thinks THEY are right.

Unfortunately, their hatred of US values is based in their religious as well as political beliefs, and war is only going to reinforce that hatred. If France came over here, started a war, deposed of Bush, and instituted their form of democracy because they decided it was better than what we were living under, would you, after the war, rejoice in your "better" democracy and love the French?

And that scenario doesn't even touch your religious beliefs.

Religion makes people do crazy, stupid things, from terrorist attacks to the murder of abortion doctors. Look at the Spanish Inquisition for proof that it's not just Islamist fundamentalists.

This war is not the end, but only the very beginning, and I hope everyone who is so fervently supporting the war is going to support the total rebuilding of Iraq and the likely higher taxes that are going to come as a result of it.

Although, now that I think about it, maybe after Saddam, we should throw down on the Pope and go after those bloodthirsty Roman Catholics... we may very well be preventing the next inquisition! If not that, we should at least go after all the Southern Baptists lunatics here in the US before they kill another doctor or bomb another clinic. :wink:

-Mike

---

Eye-popping fun!

[ Edited by: TheMuggler on 2003-04-02 15:28 ]

Well, that was fun. I forgot to login after composing my reply, so went back and did so, and my reply got nicely wiped out and replaced with a complete quote of your post. Kinda pointless, and not fun cuz it made me look dum, eh?

The Spanish Inquisition was over 300 years ago. With that kinda rationale, I don't know why Native Americans aren't setting off suicide bombs in malls across America.

marvelling daily over the whole human comedy,
emspace.

On 2003-04-02 15:40, emspace wrote:

The Spanish Inquisition was over 300 years ago. With that kinda rationale, I don't know why Native Americans aren't setting off suicide bombs in malls across America.

marvelling daily over the whole human comedy,
emspace.

emspace,

Just because it happened over 500 years ago doesn't mean there aren't lessons to learn from it.

"An unexamined life isn't worth living"
-Socrates

Saddened daily over the whole human tragedy,

Mike.

On 2003-04-02 12:51, bigbrotiki wrote:

..

Do you think the people of Iraq will appreciate the US effort as much as the German population did?

Seriously: No. The way of life in islamic nations is sooo different from the Western world that our logic and reason (Dictator gone = grateful populace) just does not apply.
I dare to say that while a minority in Irak may recognize this as an attack on Saddam, a majority sees it as an attack on Islam, their home, their innermost beliefs.
After Saddam will be gone there will be an endless religious war against whatever regime the US puts in power.

Where do you get your information?????

Many of the Iraqi people are very thankful, and grateful for the US and the position they have taken. They lived in fear of a horrible man and a vicious regime.

"FREEDOM"

It is the soldier, not the reporter,
who has given us the Freedom of the press.
It is the soldier, not the poet,
who has given us Freedom of speech.
It is the soldier, not the campus organizer,
who has given us the Freedom to demonstrate.
It is the soldier, who serves beneath the Flag,
who salutes the Flag,
whose coffin is draped by the Flag,
who allows the protester to burn the Flag.
It is the soldier, not the politician,
who has given his blood, his body, his life,
who has given us these FREEDOMS.

----Father Dennis Edward O'Brien
USMC

On 2003-04-02 15:49, TheMuggler wrote:

Saddened daily over the whole human tragedy,

Mike.

Mike, you needn't be sad. Sad is no way to live. In 1000 years nothing happening now will matter a damn, much less in 1,000,000, or in 5 billion when the whole shebang is incinerated by our expanding sun. Make mine a Mai-Tai (are you sure you're into Tiki?)...

"Rejoice; for God's sake, try to rejoice!" - Anthony Burgess, Earthly Powers

What was it that the great southern writer Mark Twain said?...."I think that God invented the monkey because he was dissapointed in man"....I would venture to guess this is true. :)

On 2003-04-02 16:57, suzywong wrote:

Where do you get your information?????

Many of the Iraqi people are very thankful, and grateful for the US and the position they have taken. They lived in fear of a horrible man and a vicious regime.

Did you ever consider where YOU get your information?

"FREEDOM"
It is the soldier, not the reporter,
who has given us the Freedom of the press.
It is the soldier, not the poet,
who has given us Freedom of speech.
It is the soldier, not the campus organizer,
who has given us the Freedom to demonstrate.
It is the soldier, who serves beneath the Flag,
who salutes the Flag,
whose coffin is draped by the Flag,
who allows the protester to burn the Flag.
It is the soldier, not the politician,
who has given his blood, his body, his life,
who has given us these FREEDOMS.

----Father Dennis Edward O'Brien
USMC

True, true, but WHO decided that our freedom was truly at stake, and send those poor guys, for what reason, to what effect, ultimately?

And I do not get this whole "Because of the soldier you have freedom of speech" argument. So yes, we have that, so we should shut up if we doubt the logic behind this war?

On 2003-04-03 10:33, bigbrotiki wrote:

True, true, but WHO decided that our freedom was truly at stake, and send those poor guys, for what reason, to what effect, ultimately?

And I do not get this whole "Because of the soldier you have freedom of speech" argument. So yes, we have that, so we should shut up if we doubt the logic behind this war?

This is quite true. Our soldiers are putting their lives on the line to defend our rights to support or denounce this war and to utilize all the freedoms our democracy affords us. To suggest that citizens shouldn't speak out against the war because they make the troops feel bad or they aren't supporting our troops is to completely misinterpret why they are soldiers in the first place.

US Soldiers deserve and receive nothing but the utmost respect from the vast majority of citizens -- both for and against this war.

I believe tikijaksin nailed the problem right on the head when he wrote:

I'm sure noone else here knows the entire reason why we are bombing the shit outta Iraq...

The problem is that we SHOULD know the entire reason why we are bombing Iraq. This is a democracy, after all, and our president is supposed to be accountable to the citizens of this country.

Here is a very revealing quote from W:

"I do not need to explain why I say things. — That's the interesting thing about being the President. — Maybe somebody needs to explain to me why they say something, but I don't feel like I owe anybody an explanation."

And that is from 60 Minutes, not some anti-war, ultra-liberal source like "The Nation." Here is the URL:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/11/17/60minutes/main529657.shtml

-Mike

Eye-popping fun!

[ Edited by: TheMuggler on 2003-04-03 10:59 ]

here's something I got today I'll share it here so all you who know one of the "peace activists" ,or if you are one of Tiki central's own "peaceful" defenders of Sadamns Iraq, who while "peace loving" at this same time, support a brutal regime that has done more malicious harm,stuck around, and kicked it's peoples ass harder than any other regime I've ever heard of.(oxymoron).here's something that makes a lotta sense.while I type this I'm hearing on a cable News network behind me that a lot of Iraqis are getting friendlier with our Troops, and are coming out Speaking their minds with a little less fear than yesterday (WoW) Enjoy.....Jaksin

With the current war raging in Iraq, many of us
will encounter "Peace Activists" who will try and
convince us that we must refrain from riding the world
of Saddam and the people that he supports... Many of
them terrorists. Do you remember September 11, 2001?
These activists may be alone or in a gathering...
Most of us don't know how to react to them. When you
come upon one of these people, or one of their
rallies, here are the proper rules of etiquette:

1. Listen politely while this person explains their
   views. Strike up a conversation if necessary and look
   very interested in their ideas. They will tell you how
   revenge is immoral, and that by attacking the
   evil regimes and the people who did this to us, we
   will only bring on more violence. They will probably
   use many arguments, ranging from political to
   religious to humanitarian.

2. In the middle of their remarks, without any
   warning, punch them in the nose.

3. When the person gets up off of the ground, they
   will be very angry and they may try to hit you, so be
   careful.

4. Very quickly and calmly remind the person that
   violence only brings about more violence and remind
   them of their stand on this matter. Tell them if they
   are really committed to a non-violent approach, they
   will turn the other cheek and negotiate a solution.
   Tell them they must lead by example if they really
   believe what they are saying. 5. Most of them will
   think for a moment and then agree that you are
   correct.

5. As soon as they do that, hit them again. Only this
   time hit them much harder. Square in the nose.

6. Repeat steps 2-5 until the desired results are
   obtained and the person realizes how stupid of an
   argument he/she is making. There is no difference in
   an individual attacking an unsuspecting victim
   or a group of terrorists attacking a nation of people.
   It is unacceptable and must be dealt with. Perhaps at
   a high cost. We owe our military a huge debt for what
   they are about to do for us and our children. We must
   support them and our leaders at times like these.
   We really have no choice. We either strike back, VERY
   HARD, or we will keep getting hit in the nose.
   If you can't be a good example, at least be a horrible
   warning.

iraq didn't punch us in the nose, and this is only about "retaliation" as far as convincing the general public goes.

didja hear that in oregon they're trying to pass a law that will equate peace protesters with terrorists and lock them up for 25 years? doesn't sound like we're fighting for freedom at all. not to mention that our freedom was never in danger in the first place. except from attack by this administration.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20030403/ts_nm/life_protests_dc_1

Im locking this topic.