Jimmy Buffett is a tiki lover

On 2007-10-04 16:12, alohacurrent wrote:

Christ that's awful.

Awful like a root canal awful?

Hey, wait a minute...is that a giant pitcher of margaritas in the background? Hey! Has anyone seen my "lost shaker of salt"? I can't tell if that is Ben Stein or Chris Elliot walking through the picture?

Yeah, I can't wait to see all the vintage "Margaritaville" memorabilia on these threads someday.

Psycho Tiki D (I know I am and some people say that there's a woman to blame, but I know it's my own damn fault)!

[ Edited by: Psycho Tiki D 2007-10-04 16:31 ]

PeleeTiki -

I like Buffett as well, but I don't want to hear him in a Tiki Bar, in exactly the same way I like Football but don't want to watch it on a big-screen TV in a Tiki Bar.

I'm definitely a bit of a snob when it comes to classic Tiki Culture because it represented a sort of "Sophisticated Savage" mentality. It was exotic and primitive, but it was suave too and required some effort. Even into the 1980s you still needed a jacket and tie to enter Trader Vics. Trader Vic himself, said his restaurant was devoted to ...

"...those merry souls who make drinking a pleasure -
Who achieve contentedness long before capacity
And who, whenever they drink, prove able to carry it, enjoy it,
And remain gentlemen."

There are plenty of folks who have no problem with Buffett becoming associated with Tiki because classic Polynesian Pop culture itself was a mongrel creation of many different influences, and that JB's influence is just another part of the continuing evolution of Tiki Culture in today's world.

I disagree with that argument. If the Buffetization of tiki added-to or improved upon Polynesian Pop, then I would welcome it into the movement the way I've come to welcome the Tiki/Hot-Rod fusion and the Tiki/Burlesque fusion. But I see the Buffetization of Tiki as a watering-down of what used to be great. I don't blame JB himself, in fact, I don't really blame anybody. But I don't want to be affable and say "Yeah, yeah. You're right, Tiki is anything with a laid-back, tropical, beach vibe" when it isn't.

When I tell a stranger that I've got a tiki bar in my house, they invevitably picture this:

Instead of something like this:

When I tell them I'm having a Tiki Party, they'll usually picture this:

Instead of this:

And when I tell them I just went to a Tiki Bar the day before, they're probably going to picture this:

Instead of this;

I know the differences are subtle, but if you look really close you can see them. I usually just have to introduce the stranger to a little bit of Column B and I've got a convert. They say something like, "Wow. I didn't realize Tiki was this cool".

I'm not saying Column A isn't fun either. In fact, I will be happy to meet you in Column A anytime for a beer. but let's call it Margaritaville, Parrothead, or Beach Bar. Let's not call it Tiki because because it only confuses people.

I definitely don't represent the opinion of everyone here either. There are plenty of TC members who like Punk Rock or Reggae in their Tiki Bars and don't feel shackled to the 1960s definition of Tiki. I just think that in general, associating Buffett Culture with Tiki has only watered it down and increased the de-evolution.

Sabu

[ Edited by: Sabu The Coconut Boy 2007-10-04 16:51 ]

"It’s not about African-art inspired masks/carvings/design "

Actually, lots of 50's Tiki work was super-African influenced, the front cover of Les Baxter's albums were often African designs. I think they just didn't know the difference. And Primitiva/Tiki were the same movement for a long time. Look at Picasso.

But hey, here's a question -

Forget Polynesia for the moment, what does Jimmy Buffet music have to do with the Caribbean? Is his music "Caribbean"? Or is it just about white folk moping and drinking while on vacation somewhere with palm trees?

I really couldn't spend too much time here...started feeling a little ill, too much tequila?

http://www.margaritaville.com/index.php?page=shop

From what I did see, not much in the way of tiki or Polynesia

Perhaps this is where the Caribbean connection came from?

PTD

Sabu,
Thanks for a well written, well illustrated, thoughtful post on this topic. And no vitriol. I think you nailed it. Great post.

p.s.
Psycho, Thanks for the great URL. I just ordered some cool stuff.

[ Edited by: ThreeTikis 2007-10-04 19:23 ]

On 2007-10-04 09:10, PeleeTiki wrote:

........The Aussie post is just, well, I have no response.............

now that's funny!...mission accomplished...!

As always, great post Sabu.

It would be nice if everyone took Trader Vic's outlook.

"And who, whenever they drink, prove able to carry it, enjoy it, And remain gentlemen"

I would well imagine that being a "gentleman" (or lady) would include refraining from the childish use of vulgarity seen earlier in this thread or the love of bashing something just for the heck of it.

Your post was very well thought out and you gave great examples to prove your point. Thank you.

I have been to many of the places JB draws from for his topicality. He spends most of his time on St. Barth's, which is probably the last bastion of "old" Caribbean; a small island, basically quiet in spite of it's popularity among the rich and famous. The aesthetic there is very laid back, tropical, of course, and carefree. Basically no crime, no pressure, just sun, sea, boats, and palm trees on beaches. Jimmy is often seen sailing around on his boat "Groovy," and his yacht, on which he lives and gets to gigs nearby, the "Continental Drifter." He is known for giving spontaneous performances on the island, free of charge. The inspiration for "Cheeseburger in Paradise" is the local dive, Le Select, which has decent burgers and good rum drinks for low prices.

There is no tiki culture there, nor in Key West, another favorite hang. I don't think that's what JB is about. He is just a guy who likes laid back tropical hangs, and has made that his brand, which he markets very well. Inasmuch as tiki intersects that brand, he is into it.

Personally, I don't listen to his music, nor like his brand. He is a magnetic performer, and knows how to draw an audience in, to bring them into his world. This is what I admire about him. I am drawn much more to the B column of Sabu's excellent post. It is much more refined and enticing; it's not about getting wasted on Bud Light, Coors Light, and cheap Margaritas, but about taking time to savor the richness of the moment: the drink, the surroundings, and most importantly, the company!!

Let it not be said that I ran for Mayor of Exotica on a platform of lower taxes and less corruption. My platform is lower rum prices, less reality TV and more rights for Pandas!

[ Edited by: The Mayor Of Exotica 2007-10-05 09:02 ]

I enjoy Buffett selectively and find that much of his material portrays, and thus in a sense promotes, an active, optimistic, openhearted life of travel and discovery. I understand the commercial imperatives behind the trademarking, branding, and promoting of "Margaritaville" this that and the other thing; while most of it doesn't interest me, I am inclined to respect the evident business savvy behind it. I most certainly don't need to denigrate others who buy into it more than I do.

A lot of people swimming around in the waters of "greater Parrotheadism" are quite a bit more worldly and interesting than you might expect if you reject them all as clueless louts right off the bat. Their interests often dovetail with mine and, I would imagine, a great many folks here at TC. One interesting scene is that of the many singer-songwriters who trod similar territory but without the national fame of Mr. Buffett. Here are a few guys I like and respect:
http://www.robmehl.com
http://www.garyseiler.com
http://www.markmulligan.net
This sub-genre is often called "trop rock." I dislike that label, but that's the way labels are, they pigeonhole things and don't do them justice, but we use them anyway.

I think the posts of Sabu, TikiSOX, and The Mayor of Exotica above pretty much hit the sorts of notes I agree with, and with class. The rants and put-downs really are tiresome in my opinion.

Thanks to you recent posters for improving my outlook on this forum. I got real discouraged with the vulgarity and lack of real debate I was reading when I posted earlier and got everyone all worked up. The commentary by Sabu and the Mayor really nailed it. I completely agree with the column "B" preference. There is a Cheeseburger in Paradise less than 2 miles from my house and it is vulgar. Being new to this, I have been amazed at the lengths (& expense) people go to in order to restore their favorite rooms to vintage tiki condition. Someday, maybe, I will get there, by doing it the right way. For now I have to take what I can get, which is a couple books, a witco fountain, 3 mugs and an understocked bar. I am grateful that "good" prevailed again over the Dr. Evils'.

Of course everyone is entitled to their opinion. Having been to several Margaritavilles, especially the one in Las Vegas, I can state that the place is quite fun. I especially enjoyed the tall pirates chasing the waitress into the volcano and then watching her get blown out of it, and slide into the pitcher of margaritas. The huge fish hook that caught and pulled her out was a nice bonus.

You know, it is what it is and neither the more commercial island theme or the more retro tiki theme compete or diminish each other. As for drunks, slobs, and jerks, liqueur is a magnet for such behavior regardless of the setting.

The bottom line is that tiki is more expensive, less accessible, and much more difficult to pull off. I've chased this thing for 25 years and except for the Tonga Room, Tiki Ti and a few other places, I haven't caught it yet: Not even in New Zealand or Bora Bora.

Criticisms remain and so long as one doesn't try to compare apples with oranges, there is plenty of room on the entertainment plate for Carribean and Oceanic pleasures. The bottom line is any excuse for a scantily clad and well-built woman is just fine with me - most of the time. (Except East St. Louis - My God man, have they ever dipped to an all time low!)

Personally, I enjoy exotic drinks. Sadly though, they've about destroyed my ability to order a drink at a bar as no one seems able to make them. So, in a pinch, Buffet can fit the bill. But of course, now that The Trader's moved to Las Vegas, Margaritaville might see less of me.

So, to all those who seem to get way to worked up about this subject, float away with hydrogen.

Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

[ Edited by: telescopes 2007-10-08 13:54 ]

On 2007-10-04 04:59, ikitnrev wrote:
Well, my impression of Jimmy Buffet went up a few notches. Anyone who can refer to Lord Richard Buckley in a press release/statement that will likely be read by tens of thousands deserves some credit. What could have been a moment of darkness, he has turned into an opportunity to enlighten the masses about a major beat/hipster figure who deserves more recognition.
http://www.lordbuckley.com/

Thanks Ikitnrev for a great link, I found this on the site.

Here is a partial transcript of a "You Bet Your Life Show" from 1956 in which Groucho and His Lordship have some fun.

Groucho
Now, is there a Lady Buckley stashed away in a castle someplace –

Lord Buckley
Ah, yes, sir, my Lady Buckley –

Groucho

• behind a moat?

Lord Buckley
Yes, no, no, she’s in a castle. She’s tucked very beautifully in a castle. Lady Buckley is a very exquisite, charming, gracious, talented lady.

Groucho
I’m, I’m sure she’s a lady, Mr. Buckley. And I respect you for speaking so well of her. How did you acquire this smooth way with women?

Lord Buckley
I’ve been married six times. [strong laughter from audience]

Groucho
Well, if you had learned anything you wouldn’t have gotten married the second time. Six times you’ve been married?

Lord Buckley
Yes, sir.

Groucho
Well, are you planning on fighting any more preliminaries or is this, is this current one the main bout?

Lord Buckley
No, no, I’ve been married for ten years, sir. I have a divine young boy four years old and a little girl five.

Groucho
I see. The other five [referring to the five marriages] went rather rapidly didn’t they?

Lord Buckley
Quite, sir, yes.

Groucho
Over the damn in no time.

Lord Buckley
High rhythm.

On 2007-10-04 16:36, Sabu The Coconut Boy wrote:
I'm definitely a bit of a snob when it comes to classic Tiki Culture because it represented a sort of "Sophisticated Savage" mentality. It was exotic and primitive, but it was suave too and required some effort. Even into the 1980s you still needed a jacket and tie to enter Trader Vics. Trader Vic himself, said his restaurant was devoted to ...

"...those merry souls who make drinking a pleasure -
Who achieve contentedness long before capacity
And who, whenever they drink, prove able to carry it, enjoy it,
And remain gentlemen."

[SNIPPED]

Tim, that whole post, with nicely chosen photos, was very well put.

I might have to bookmark it as a go-to post when I need to explain this stuff to people...!

On 2007-10-04 16:36, Sabu The Coconut Boy wrote:
PeleeTiki -

I like Buffett as well, but I don't want to hear him in a Tiki Bar, in exactly the same way I like Football but don't want to watch it on a big-screen TV in a Tiki Bar.

I'm definitely a bit of a snob when it comes to classic Tiki Culture because it represented a sort of "Sophisticated Savage" mentality. It was exotic and primitive, but it was suave too and required some effort. Even into the 1980s you still needed a jacket and tie to enter Trader Vics. Trader Vic himself, said his restaurant was devoted to ...

"...those merry souls who make drinking a pleasure -
Who achieve contentedness long before capacity
And who, whenever they drink, prove able to carry it, enjoy it,
And remain gentlemen."

There are plenty of folks who have no problem with Buffett becoming associated with Tiki because classic Polynesian Pop culture itself was a mongrel creation of many different influences, and that JB's influence is just another part of the continuing evolution of Tiki Culture in today's world.

I disagree with that argument. If the Buffetization of tiki added-to or improved upon Polynesian Pop, then I would welcome it into the movement the way I've come to welcome the Tiki/Hot-Rod fusion and the Tiki/Burlesque fusion. But I see the Buffetization of Tiki as a watering-down of what used to be great. I don't blame JB himself, in fact, I don't really blame anybody. But I don't want to be affable and say "Yeah, yeah. You're right, Tiki is anything with a laid-back, tropical, beach vibe" when it isn't.

When I tell a stranger that I've got a tiki bar in my house, they invevitably picture this:

Instead of something like this:

When I tell them I'm having a Tiki Party, they'll usually picture this:

Instead of this:

And when I tell them I just went to a Tiki Bar the day before, they're probably going to picture this:

Instead of this;

I know the differences are subtle, but if you look really close you can see them. I usually just have to introduce the stranger to a little bit of Column B and I've got a convert. They say something like, "Wow. I didn't realize Tiki was this cool".

I'm not saying Column A isn't fun either. In fact, I will be happy to meet you in Column A anytime for a beer. but let's call it Margaritaville, Parrothead, or Beach Bar. Let's not call it Tiki because because it only confuses people.

I definitely don't represent the opinion of everyone here either. There are plenty of TC members who like Punk Rock or Reggae in their Tiki Bars and don't feel shackled to the 1960s definition of Tiki. I just think that in general, associating Buffett Culture with Tiki has only watered it down and increased the de-evolution.

Sabu

---

Funny, very funny you didn't post your pictures of your own tiki hut instead of using examples of others !!!!

If u don't live it you can't give it.

---

[ Edited by: Sabu The Coconut Boy 2007-10-04 16:51 ]

TikiLaLe, if you've paid any attention at all on this website, you'd see that Sabu has been a major contributor here over the years. His posts have been full of valuable information and his extensive collection of postcards, brochures, menus and match covers of long closed tiki establishments has shed a lot of light on places that would have otherwise been forgotten. I, along with many people here, consider his posts to contain a high value content and are what drew me to Tiki Central in the first place. I will not participate in a flame war so expect no additional response from me on this subject, but I do not hold the same regard for your posts.

I felt that Sabu's post was very circumspect and open minded on its own merit, even without the illustrious posting history he has created. I would attribute any problems with that post to misinterpretation of the reader.

Certainly, it's a very subjective topic, dealing entirely with questions of taste and sensibility. However, I feel that Sabu went out of his way to point out that his remarks reflect his tastes, and the pix were illustrations of his points. Quite well done, quite resourcefully done, I hasten to add.

Any interpretation that strays so far from that as to cause bad vibes is simply due to lack of simple reading and comprehension.

Just my 2¢ worth.

My 2 cents.

Don't hate Buffett because his fans are morons. That just doesn't make sense, even tho' he is partly responsible for the way his fans act due to the "parrothead" image he sells them, but I digress....

His sound seems to be more Carribean influenced than Exotica. I think people relate him with TIKI because his whole schtick is the whole "Island vacation" thing.

People tend to lump anything "island-related" the same category. We, as discerning Tikiphiles know the difference. We are a cult, Buffet has his cult, we have ours. People who belong to neither just look at it as all the same thing. Oh well whatever, nevermind......

I liked Margharitaville when it came out, and the last time I heard it was at the Purple Orchid,oddly enough, and I enjoy it as a pop song.

It ain't Tiki tho'.

Aloha!

I wanted to say I really do enjoy reading these debates about JB, and wanted to contribute my 2 cents also.

First, I am guilty of being quite deep into Tiki and Exotica, but still liking Buffett, with a major exception. I used to follow the beliefs of the Church of Buffett - Orthodox, who are group of Buffett fans who clearly state that every album after and including Changes in Latitude, Changes in Attitude basically suck and do not represent the true Buffett experience. My favorite quote from them: "if you're dumb enough to like "Math Sux" we see no point in hitting you with a 2x4 and killing what few neurons are still gasping for oxygen." Simply put, Buffett hasn't made a good album since the late 70s.

However, to sway me in the other direction, we did just find out that we are losing are current Thor Stor space in Waikiki to the new Margaritaville being built. That is a clear sign that Buffett has no regard for tiki - closing the only thing in Waikiki that is trying to bring back the tiki culture and old Hawaii.

Don't worry, though, we found a bigger, better spot...