The Film Noir Thread

So what else do you like besides Tiki?

For me it's Film Noir. (Also first and second generation Punk Rock, 1976-1984, but that's another post).

Like Tiki, Film Noir is a post-WWII American cultural style that I take great interest in. Film Noir is also synonymous with my home of Los Angeles where many of the classics take place. These films are also a visual record of places and neighborhoods which have long since been demolished (that's LA for you).

I like to separate Film Noir into two categories, classic (mid-1940's through late 1950's) and neo-noir (1970's+).

CLASSIC

To me Film Noir arguably begins and ends with Billy Wilder. He defined the genre with "Double Indemnity" (1944).

"Sunset Blvd" (1950) is his 2nd classic although purists would argue its more of a gothic satire than noir. I disagree, any movie that's told in flashback by the dead protagonist floating face down in a swimming pool is noir enough for me.

Wilder's 3rd contribution is "Ace in the Hole" (1951) which stars Kirk Douglas as an opportunistic newspaper reporter. This little known gem lacks the urban setting of typical Film Noir but is a dark and cynical (as well as prophetic) tale of ambition. Highly recommended.

I have a lot of favorites, but these are at the top of my list. Here are the well-known films.

• Asphalt Jungle (1950) - Classic heist movie told in prospective from the crooks' side. Lots of great character acting (like noir tough guy Sterling Hayden) and it includes Marilyn Monroe in one of her first roles. The setting is supposed to be back East but I can identify downtown LA in some shots.

• The Killing (1956) - Stanley Kubrick's docu-noir which might be a sequel to "Asphalt Jungle" if Sterling Hayden hadn't died in that one. Also you can see where Quentin Tarantino got his non-linear storytelling inspiration from.

• Night and the City (1950) - It takes place in London and has one of the most haunting endings in Film Noir history. It stars the late great Richard Widmark.

• The Killers (1946) - Burt Lancaster plays the doomed protagonist in a film based on a short story by Ernest Hemingway.

• Kiss Me Deadly (1955) - A violent and whirl-wind tour through mid-1950's LA. This film was a major influence on the French New Wave of cinema. Check out the great shots of downtown's Bunker Hill neighborhood (which was razed in the 1960's). Also the first use of the iconic "what's in the briefcase?"

• Sweet Smell of Success (1957) - This film has the snappiest dialogue of any movie I've ever seen. Fans of "Mad Men" should check out Burt Lancaster and Tony Curtis playing the original dog-eat-dog Manhattanites.

• Touch of Evil (1958) - I have mixed feelings about this one. Pluses - Story, classic opening tracking shot, Orson Welles, Marlene Dietrich, and vintage location shots of Venice, CA. Minuses - Charlton Heston in "brown face".

Here's some lesser-known favorites.

• Criss Cross (1949) - Burt Lancaster as another doomed character. Directed by Robert Siodmak (who also did "The Killers"). Lilly Munster plays the femme fatale and lots of great location shots of 1940's downtown LA.

• Crime Wave (1954) - Sterling Hayden again. This film shows what Glendale looked like in the 1950's. It's available on DVD and has an entertaining commentary by noir expert Eddie Muller and the "Demon Dog of American Fiction" James Ellroy.

I actually met James Ellroy once who gave me his definition of Noir - "We're all fucked".

• Quicksand (1950) - I like this movie because it takes place in my neighborhood of Ocean Park, Santa Monica. It stars Mickey Rooney and has been aptly described as "Andy Hardy goes to Hell". Check out the long demolished Ocean Park Pier and what the current Santa Monica Pier used to look like (where the film dramatically ends).

• The Sniper (1952) - I recently saw this at the New Beverly (revival) Theater, it's not yet available on DVD. Think Travis Bickle was cinema's first "God's lonely man" in Taxi Driver? This film was ahead of it's time by portraying a character so alienated from society that he snipes off innocent people to feel any emotion. He's portrayed as sympathetic since the viewer is made to feel his pain and he knows he's crazy and must be stopped. I was floored.

I'll follow up with my neo-noir favorites in a later post.

Please feel free to share your comments.

[ Edited by: JOHN-O 2010-09-30 22:31 ]

I too am a film noir fan. I recommend Pick Up on South Street (Richard Widmark at his sleazy nasty best), Where the Sidewalk Ends, Kiss of Death (Widmark goes wild!), The Big Heat (Glenn Ford is on a "hate binge" and Lee Marvin knocks over a Moai in a fight in a swank 50s penthouse), Gun Crazy, I Wake Up Screaming, Double Indemnity (of course!), He Walked by Night, This Gun for Hire (!!!!!), White Heat , Night and the City, the Naked City. The Blue Gardenia(contains polynesian cocktails scene in Chinese restaurant, they drink a cocktail called a pearl diver), I could go on and on. Nothing warms my heart more than angry double-crossed men in fedoras and trenchcoats pistol-whipping someone in a dark alley while a neon sign flickers nearby.

Make mine a mai tai!

[ Edited by: TikiGoddess 2009-09-19 14:05 ]

Not sure if this is in the genre. Here is a great movie poster that was a b-day gift from my wife that I think has a great feel to it. In my humble opinion. I believe the poster is from 1958. There is a trailer for the film on Youtube. Thanks for the post.

My favourite Neo-Noir film is "Brick", all the feel and style of a classic noir but set in modern day high school.

On 2009-09-20 07:50, uncle trav wrote:
Not sure if this is in the genre. Here is a great movie poster that was a b-day gift from my wife that I think has a great feel to it. In my humble opinion. I believe the poster is from 1958. There is a trailer for the film on Youtube. Thanks for the post.

Actually O.S.S. 117 was a series of films that was France's answer to James Bond. A few years ago they came out with a parody of it (not quite Austin Powers) that I saw at the Nuart Theater in West L.A.

Not so much Film Noir as it was spy genre. Your poster is very cool though. It does have all of the standard Film Noir iconography in it

JO,
I have always liked films by Nicholas Ray. They Live by Night and SideStreet, Great films. Also In a Lonely Place with Humphrey B.

Yup, "In a Lonely Place" was certainly Nicholas Ray's masterpiece. Actually I think this film transcends Film Noir as it doesn't have the standard noir iconography. The movie stars Humphrey Bogart (playing his real-life nasty self ?) as well as one of the leading ladies of Noir, Gloria Grahame.

Grahame was married to Nicholas Ray and their story is one which would make a great Noir. Grahame winds up seducing Ray's 13-year-old son from a previous marriage. Ten years later (after having divorced Nicholas Ray) she marries her former step-son !!

Here's a picture of Gloria in Fritz Lang's "The Big Heat". I love her line "You know, Bertha, we're sisters under the mink" as she plugs the blackmailing wife of a dead corrupt cop. Her face gets scalded with hot coffee earlier in the film by gangster Lee Marvin (in one of his first major roles).

[ Edited by: JOHN-O 2009-09-20 21:50 ]

John-O -

I learned of a Columbia Pictures film years ago that featured a chase scene aboard a wooden roller-coaster as its climax. After years of attempts to secure a copy for my collection and failing each attempt - I began to doubt such a film existed. No VHS release. No DVD release either.

My prayers were finally realized in 2003 although the movie remains un-available for home viewing.

It is the film noir classic "Man In The Dark" directed by Lew Landers.

Released in 1953 for 3D presentation, the film stars Edmond O'Brian as an ex-con who receives an experimental brain operation in prison designed to wipe out his memories and killer instincts. Problem is that after leaving prison he can't remember where a stash of money from a prior heist was hidden.

The reason the film holds a special place in my psyche is because of all the footage taken on the Ocean Park, CA amusement pier - pre P.O.P.

The film surpassed all my expectations as to what glimpses it might contain of the old amusement pier. Put simply? Astounding. And in 3D?...My God!

The World 3D Film Festival of 2003 held at the historic Egyptian Theater in Hollywood featured a showing of "Man In The Dark" in glorious 3D as intended upon release in '53. I attended and so did many other enthusiasts. The morning viewing (a weekday) was sold-out. The majority in attendance probably played hooky from work...

TikiG

[ Edited by: TikiG 2009-09-21 08:53 ]

Poor Edmond O'Brien, not only does he get slipped an iridium mickey in "D.O.A." but they experiment on his brain as well (a la "Clockwork Orange").

Oh well at least he gets to hang out at cool places like the Bradbury Bldg and Ocean Park Pier. :)

Nice find TikiG, I'll have to keep an eye out for it.

I'm an American Cinematheque member but I guess I missed that one. The fun thing about the Egyptian (and the Aero in Santa Monica) is the guest speakers they have between films. I got to see Coleen Grey talk about classics she appeared in like "The Killing","Nightmare Alley", and "Kiss of Death". She's funny. In response to some noir-geek questions from the audience she responds "I can't remember that, it was 60 years ago".

On another occasion I was actually sitting next to Gaby Rodger (Gabrielle who opens up the "Pandora's Box") at a screening of "Kiss Me Deadly". Her adult son shouted "Hey Mom, you just got blown up". Maxine Cooper, who played Mike Hammer's secretary Velda, was also in the audience. Sadly her health looked to be very poor (she passed away earlier this year).

There are other cool stories regarding Noir screenings at American Cinematheque (which regrettably I didn't attend). I understand that at a screening of Edgar Ulmer's "Detour", the discussion panel mentioned that Ann Savage's whereabouts were unknown. She then yelled from her seat "I'm right here". Sadly Ann Savage passed away last December.

The one person I really would have loved to see speak was Richard Widmark. He was just too frail to make the trip out from New York and in March of last year, Noir's "Last man standing" passed away at the age of 93.

The whole block around the Egyptian is rich with LA-Noir history. For those of you who aren't aware, Raymond Chandler wrote the "Big Sleep" at Musso and Frank across the street. Also Boardner's Bar around the corner was reputedly frequented by Elizabeth Short aka the "Black Dahlia".

(Sorry, I got off track there).

Thanks TikiG, the great thing about Film Noir is, all of these undiscovered treasures keep popping up.

JO,
Yeah, I love The Big Heat. Marvin is great to watch in that one. I also like Brodrick Crawford movies, Scandal Sheet, The Mob etc. and one I can't remember the name of in which he plays a private eye....he has some great lines in that one which he delivers in that wonderful Brodrick Crawford way. Gonna watch Fritz Langs "M" tonite, haven't seen it for a long time. Peter Lorre is another of my favorite actors.

Love this thread, John-O. I've been to the Noir fests at the Egyptian put on by Eddie Mueller too - here's his website, under the imaginative name;

http://www.eddiemuller.com

His book "Dark City", about the history of Film Noir is an amazing read, especially as the entire thing is written in tough-guy-speak.

Don't forget the whole birth of Gangster/Noir/Anti-Hero movies in the 1920's and 30's. The movement was German ....

"The Joyless Street" with Greta Garbo 1925
"Docks of New York" 1928, Joseph Von Sternberg
"Spies" 1928
"Pandora's Box","Diary of a Lost Girl" 1929
"Blue Angel" 1930
"Dishonored" 1931
"Public Enemy" 1931
"M" 1931 Fritz Lang
"G-Men" 1935
"Fury" 1936

etc.

Most of these early films are still hard hitting and much more deeply psychological than the later stuff. My favorite early director was Sternberg, his almost never seen "Dishonored" has some of the most astounding camera and staging experiments I've ever seen, the ending of the film is an incredibly shocking short speech against violence of any form....

Yes "Dark City" is my noir bible and roadmap. That's the book that really spiked my interest into seeking out all of the films on my list. It's a great book on many levels. I also like his book "Dark City Dames" but it's been out of print for quite some time. I'm always tempted to steal it from the library (how's that for an appropriately Noir dilemma?) I ran into Eddie Muller once at the Egyptian but he kind of blew me off. That's OK, I still donate to his Noir society.

You're choice of films is very interesting. Film Noir led to my interest into the pre-code films of the early 1930's. That's how I really became a fan of Barbara Stanwyck. I first knew of her as the matriarch on the 1960's TV western "The Big Valley". Then I discovered her as the definitive femme fatale in "Double Indemnity". Then I found out she was really at her peak in pre-code classics like "Night Nurse","Forbidden", and "Baby Face".

Thanks for the feedback.

On 2009-09-19 20:36, Atomic Tiki Punk wrote:
John-O, your on the Mark there, Billy Wilder was a driving force, Ace in the Hole is at the top of my list
Great, great movie, I do consider it Noir because of the Narrative, dialog & subject matter, Chuck Tatum was Kirk's best role
in my opinion, although "Detective Story" is very close.

[ Edited by: Atomic Tiki Punk 2009-09-19 20:43 ]

I thought I would move this post to your thread

I have to say the original movie DRAGNET with Jack Webb (not the stupid remake, and not the TV show)is an excellent example of "newer" noir. Its in color so it lacks the shadow element, but its hard boiled and has great dialogue.

It's funny both "Detective Story" (1951) and "Dragnet" (1954) are mentioned. Those are films I really want to see but I don't think they're available on DVD.

Here's the rest of my wish list:

1. Phantom Lady (1944)
2. The Blue Dahlia (1945) - Alan Ladd & Veronica Lake together again !
3. The Devil Thumbs a Ride (1947) - Lawrence Tierney !
4. Moonrise (1948)
5. Pitfall (1948)
6. The City that Never Sleeps (1952)
7. Hell's Half Acre (1954) - Hawaii Noir + Marie Windsor ! (And according to TC posts, the Hawaii DTBC).
8. Naked Alibi (1954) - Sterling Hayden + Gloria Grahame !
9. Shield for Murder (1954)

As far as I know these aren't on DVD either. (Rats, I missed "Phantom Lady" tonight at the New Bev)

Anyone seen these ?

[ Edited by: JOHN-O 2009-09-25 07:54 ]

John-O we have the Blue Dahlia on DVD.

Really, is it Region 1? I know it's available in Region 2 and probably as a grey market bootleg.

My last post had me check the latest status of my wish list. I just found out that Vidiots in Samo carries "Detective Story" and that "Dragnet" (1954 movie) is available via Amazon VOD. :)

[ Edited by: JOHN-O 2009-09-25 23:25 ]

Yes, get Detective Story, not Noir, but Hard Boiled detective drama, a must see.

John-O not sure, it says Fox Film Noir on top and it has the 20th Century Fox logo in the back.

John-O: Sheild For Murder was recently on TCM. I've seen most of the films on your list either on TCM or at Noir City, the annual film noir festival in San Francisco (every January for about 2 weeks), but I prefer seeing them on the big screen.

Last night I saw a pretty uncommon B-noir called The Burgler (1957) starring Dan Duryea (who was great) and Jayne Mansfield (who was pretty terrible). The original book and movie's screenplay was written by one of the best crime authors, David Goodis. It played at the Roxie theater in SF with a great Goodis screenplay film, Nightfall, also from 1957 and one of my absolute favorites. Both films had great location scenes, The Burgler in Atlantic City and Nightfall in Los Angeles (Miceli's in Hollywood is in the opening credits) and somewhere in the mountains (Sierras or Rockies). I recommend you put Nightfall on your must-see list.

On 2009-09-25 22:32, Atomic Tiki Punk wrote:
Yes, get Detective Story, not Noir, but Hard Boiled detective drama, a must see.

ATP,

Dude, that ending was NOIR !!

Based on your comment I was expecting a happy ending (and I hate when that happens in Dark City).

On 2009-09-29 17:02, thejab wrote:
John-O: Sheild For Murder was recently on TCM. I've seen most of the films on your list either on TCM or at Noir City, the annual film noir festival in San Francisco (every January for about 2 weeks), but I prefer seeing them on the big screen.

Last night I saw a pretty uncommon B-noir called The Burgler (1957) starring Dan Duryea (who was great) and Jayne Mansfield (who was pretty terrible). The original book and movie's screenplay was written by one of the best crime authors, David Goodis. It played at the Roxie theater in SF with a great Goodis screenplay film, Nightfall, also from 1957 and one of my absolute favorites. Both films had great location scenes, The Burgler in Atlantic City and Nightfall in Los Angeles (Miceli's in Hollywood is in the opening credits) and somewhere in the mountains (Sierras or Rockies). I recommend you put Nightfall on your must-see list.

TCM. Hmmm.... Maybe I'll have to get TV again.

Thanks for the suggestions. I just added Nightfall to my list and any movie with both Dan Duryea and Jayne Mansfield is a must see in my book.

I've always wondered about the Noir City festival being run in SF. Isn't LA supposed to be the real Noir City? :)

On 2009-09-29 18:30, JOHN-O wrote:

On 2009-09-25 22:32, Atomic Tiki Punk wrote:
Yes, get Detective Story, not Noir, but Hard Boiled detective drama, a must see.

ATP,

Dude, that ending was NOIR !!

Based on your comment I was expecting a happy ending (and I hate when that happens in Dark City).

I can't dispute your point of view, I like to include Detective Story in my idea of classic Noir...

"Cat People" (1942) a good dose of "noir horror."

Yes! Val Lewton is Horror Noir!

I've always wondered about the Noir City festival being run in SF. Isn't LA supposed to be the real Noir City? :)

I think it's a tie! :) One year at Noir City they showed LA vs SF, and there are great classic films set in both cities.

But LA seems more ideal as noir city because the auto-centered post-war urban/suburban setting is perfect for film noir. There's something about the endless sunshine contrasting with the dark criminal element. But SF has the fog and rain, which makes for great nighttime noir atmosphere.

A good book on SF film noir.

On 2009-10-01 00:40, Fres-tiki wrote:
"Cat People" (1942) a good dose of "noir horror."

I actually like to think of it as "supernatural noir".

Yes, "Cat People". :) I also liked the 1982 remake with Nastassja Kinski.

My favorite Val Lewton is "I Walked with a Zombie" (1943).

Probably my favorite "supernatural noir" is neo-noir - Angel Heart (1987).

Here are my upcoming noir posts:

1. Top neo-noirs.
2. The most overrated classic noirs.
3. Good classic noirs that could have been great if Hollywood hadn't tacked on the last-minute "happy ending".

Scarlet Street starring Edward G. Robinson and Dan Duyea is excellent. No happy ending there certainly.
As for modern noir LA Confidential is great in my opin. I think alot of modern movies get the noir label undeservedly, but this one deserves it.

Check out any of the many films of Jules Dassin, cross genre at times, check out "Naked City"
I just picked up the Blu-Ray of Carol Reed's "The Third Man" I dig the post war Vienna location, great Cinematography and more.
Fritz Langs American movies are worth a see, if you have not already.

Inspired by the programming of a British Film Noir festival at New York's Film Forum
http://www.filmforum.org/films/britnoir.html I have sought out as many of the films as possible to play at home through my LoveFilm subscription (like Netflix).

Why not try some?

The Stevenson Wedding Mug by Cheekytiki, 2006

[ Edited by: 54 house of bamboo 2009-10-12 15:45 ]

Wow, that's a great link. http://www.filmforum.org/films/britnoir.html

Thank you for sharing that. Most of those films, I'm not familiar with.

How about posting your favorites, a brief synopsis (no spoilers please) and whether they are readily available on DVD?

[ Edited by: JOHN-O 2009-10-13 11:34 ]

Wow, I have not seen many of these UK classics, are they available in the US on DVD?

I've wanted to post my list of top ten favorite neo-Noirs for quite some time. I'll probably elaborate on my choices in future posts.

Here it is for now....

1. Memento (2000) - I'll stack this up with any of the original Film Noir classics. I love this movie.
2. Blade Runner (1982) - Even though I got burned out on it (too many versions).
3. Chinatown (1974) - Here's a true story. Faye Dunaway - "What's my motivation for this scene?" Roman Polanski - "Your paycheck's your motivation. Just say the fucking lines !!"
4. Taxi Driver (1976) - Possibly more ambitious than Noir but I'll put it on my list anyway.
5. The Grifters (1990) - I could have imagined this being made in the late 1940's.
6. Devil in a Blue Dress (1995) - Walter Mosley translates better to the screen than James Ellroy.
7. Hard Eight (1996) - Little known gem from Paul Thomas Anderson (his film before Boogie Nights). I love the final shot.
8. The Yakuza (1975) - Starring Robert Mitchum. Screenplay by Paul Schrader & Robert Towne !!
9. The Player (1992) - Arguably more of a satire but that's what they said about Sunset Blvd too.
10. Repo Man (1984) / Big Lewbowski (1998) - It's a tie between Punk Noir and Bowling Noir.

What JOHN-O, no "L.A. Confidential" ?? !! I admit I loved it when it first came out, but the more I watch it I don't think it holds up. It almost seems like a self-conscious and unintentional parody of period Noir. I think maybe they should have stopped doing period Noir after "Chinatown" (how are you going to top that one?). Chalk it up as "Ellroy Light". Read the book instead. I watch it now to see interior shots of Neutra's Modernist classic, the Lovell House. I got to visit that place once.

[ Edited by: JOHN-O 2009-10-15 07:59 ]

Here's a coincidence related to the prior post on British Noir. It just so happens this month in Los Angeles, the UCLA Film & Television Archive's Exhibition & Public Programs is featuring a festival of British Noir.

http://www.cinema.ucla.edu/screenings/screenings.html
http://www.cinema.ucla.edu/calendar/calendardetails.aspx?details_type=2&id=350

It's located at the Hammer Museum's Billy Wilder Theater in Westwood - 10899 Wilshire Boulevard.

[ Edited by: JOHN-O 2009-10-15 19:24 ]

OK, so maybe I was a bit overcritical on "L.A. Confidential".

Because so many people love it, I tend to be the contrarian. Sometimes though, I think of it as "Film Noir with training wheels" for today's young generation of self-professed film geeks. Here's an example. I was standing in line at Meltdown Comics on Sunset Blvd. The young twenty-something "film geek" in front of me was raving on and on about the movie which he had just seen on DVD . I asked him, how did he like it in comparison to classic Film Noir? He replied "Huh, you mean all those old black-and-white movies?".

You've got to admit though, there are a lot of cliches:

1. Kim Basinger as the hooker with a heart-of-gold.
2. The real criminal mastermind turns out to be the police captain.
3. The use of existing vintage locations. At first I thought it was cool, but then I was annoyed. "Look, it's the Frolic Room." "Look, it's the Formosa Cafe." How ironic. Oh well, at least they didn't use Bulgaria as an LA stand-in like they did in the "Black Dahlia".
4. The latter part of the movie turns into a Russell Crowe / Guy Pearce "buddy picture".

But you might argue, isn't this just an adaptation of James Ellroy's novel? Trust me, the book is much more complex and hard-boiled. So what does Ellroy think of all these adaptations? He's laughing all the way to the bank, especially when they pay him for options on books which he considers unfilmable. I actually spoke with him in 2007 when he hosted a tour retracing his non-fiction book "My Dark Places". I could write a whole another post on that interesting experience. The guy is a Noir character himself.

Here's a funny story that he told. Some little old lady comes up to him in a video store and just gushes on and on about how much she loved the movie "L.A. Confidential" (and whether Kevin Spacey was really gay). Ellroy asks if she had bought and read the book, and she admits she hasn't. Ellroy then replies "Then what the fuck good are you to me?" :)

[ Edited by: JOHN-O 2009-10-15 22:32 ]

I agree with you that "L.A. Confidential" is "noir lite". But it does follow the noir tradition of a character seeking the truth and in doing so moving into a state of moral uncertainty. The most incredible thing about the film for me is how the screenwriters were able to take a 500-page novel that takes place over decades and includes dozens of characters and boil it down into a coherent story and still maintain the highlights of the original work.

Try to use people's interest in the film as means of introducing them to more "serious" noir films.

And some other great neo-noirs to consider:

The Last Seduction - 1994
Body Heat - 1982
Blood Simple - 1984
The Conversation - 1974
Night Moves - 1975

Glad I could promote some British classics to you all - seems Noir is often perceived as an American preserve - bit like tiki... :wink:

About half of those films I can get on my LoveFilm subscription (like Netflix) so they are avaialable on DVD.

You could also try http://www.theauteurs.com

In the UK we are blessed with the British Film Institute (www.bfi.org.uk) and in my home city of Cambridge we have one of their Mediatheque at our public library - 1,500 free films and TV shows on a video jukebox. Guess what I do in my lunch hour?!

James Ellroy is currently touring US bookshops promoting 'Blood's A Rover'
Here's an interview from 13 October http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipPrB2ti5oo

Oh, and last night I watched 'The Paradine Case'... more courtroom drama than noir, but good characterisation and less visual effects than the usual for Hitchcock.

Wow...lot's of good lists here. I'm gonna have to come back and read this thread when I have more time.

I basically love any murder mystery British & American....the classics. Always watch a Hitch if it is on. Definitely "Double Indemnity" "Sunset Blvd" "Night of the Iguana" "Maltese Falcon" "Laura""Casa Blanca"...pretty much anything with Bogie, Alan Ladd, Robert Mitchum, Bette Davis, Barbara Stanwyck, Marlene Detriech, Marilyn Monroe, Fred McMurray, Rita Hayworth, Lana Turner, Dana Andrews, Dick Powell, Ava Gardner, Lauren Bacall, Jimmy Stewart, Cary Grant...oh so many more.

Film Noir was just sooooo good, with great plots, good dancing (esp Buzby Berkley), great costumes (Edith Head was awesome)....

Sorry for all the bad spelling. :wink:

Aha, VampiressRN has brought this thread back from the dead. How appropriate (for both a vampiress and an RN) !!

OK, let me contribute. I finally saw "The Blue Dahlia". It was on a double bill with "Double Indemnity" at the New Beverly. "The Blue Dahlia" was just OK, but "Double Indemnity" is a hard act to follow.

To me though it was significant for the following reasons:

1. The 2nd Noir pairing of Alan Ladd and Veronica Lake (after the superior "This Gun for Hire"). Veronica Lake was Alan Ladd's favorite leading lady since she stood 4'11" to his 5'5". He had to stand on an apple crate when paired with other actresses. Veronica Lake had a real Noir life herself. After peaking in the 1940's, she was found working as a cocktail waitress in the 1960's. Kim Basinger was "cut" to look like her in "LA Confidential".

2. Elizabeth Short was nicknamed the "Black Dahlia" after being found mutilated and severed in half in a Leimert Park vacant lot. The nickname was based on this movie's title which played the previous summer in 1946.

[ Edited by: JOHN-O 2010-01-28 16:47 ]

On 2010-01-25 05:50, VampiressRN wrote:
Film Noir was just sooooo good, with great plots, good dancing (esp Buzby Berkley), great costumes (Edith Head was awesome)....

Busby Berkeley ?? !!

Are you sure you're not mistaking 1930's Pre-Code with Film Noir (which was post-Code) ??

Here's a question for John-O: I too enjoy a good Film Noir classic. Watched an awful lot of them in my youth. A couple of years ago I took my kids to see the movie Sin City when it came out. Based on a graphic novel. My kids hated it and I loved it. I told them you don't understand film noir. To me that movie was a perfect example of neo-film-noir. The Bruce Willis character who says as he dies, "Old man dies, young girl lives, fair trade." - or something like that as I remember. The Mickey Rourke character that ends up in the electric chair. Jessica Alba as the pole-dancer, stripper, with a heart of gold. Do you agree? Neo Film Noir?

Excellent question. Is "Sin City" Neo-Noir ?? Many people consider it to be.

I do consider "Sin City" to be one of the most faithful adaptations of a comic book (or graphic novel if you prefer). I however DO NOT consider it to be true Noir and I'll tell you why.

There's a fine line between between classic Noir and a horror show. In fact, Eddie Muller in his book "Dark City" hypothesized that the original Film Noir period ended when movies went over the edge into shock/psycho/horror land. The landmark film in this case was Alfred Hitchcock's "Psycho".

To me, "Sin City" was a cruel ugly horror show. :( I didn't hate it but I did want to take a shower afterward.

Your kids have good taste. :D

[ Edited by: JOHN-O 2010-01-28 16:39 ]

Classic Noir vs. Neo Noir

Veronica Lake vs. Kim Basinger

Black & White vs. Color

No matter what you thought of "Sin City", I think it fits the definition of film noir. It has a morally ambiguous universe, characters making moral choices, the use of light and dark to depict the morality of the characters, etc.

I think you could probably classify it as "extreme noir" or even "hardcore noir" because it takes every aspect of traditional noir and takes it to an almost absurd limit - kind of like the films of Tarantino.

Good points TikiHardBop, I agree with your assessment.

I guess I was just venting on popular fiction's tendency to justify violent or cruel behavior on knee-jerk psychopathy. It's just plain lazy writing.

To me, good Noir illustrates how a cynical world can drive regular people (that you or I might sympathize with) to extreme or criminal behavior. Films like "Taxi Driver" and "The Sniper" would fit into this category for me.

BTW, I liked your inclusion of "The Conversation" as Neo Noir. I think it's a overlooked film for the genre.

[ Edited by: JOHN-O 2010-01-29 11:13 ]

Too funny...you caught me John. Of course no Busby Berkley in Film Noir...I thought...oops shouldn't have posted that, but didn't have time to change it (that real life interruption) forgot to go back and change it. Was just going to do that today...but alas I am late to the party...LOL. Thanks for the correction. :)

Can we have a BB section...JOKING.

I kind of figured that was a mis-post. :)

Actually even though I love Noir (post-WWII), I think the films of the 1930's were my favorites. We had the Pre-Code films, Marx Brothers, Tarzan series, Universal Horror (!!), Gangster, and yes the Busby Berkeley musicals.

This modernist number from "Gold Diggers of 1935" is one of my favorites....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gGVryQDvv4

What was this scene supposed to be representative of? The rise of fascism? The consequences of hedonism?

And what about Wini Shaw's spotlighted face dissolving into the darkness?

Maybe this was Hollywood's first Noir dance number? :D

OMG...I am crying in my diet coke!!!

I think we are on to something...Busby Noir. That dining couple...that fall...that shocking ending...very Salvidor Dali like. Thanks that was totally enjoyable.