Tiki Music Defined

Being located where we are, we've experienced some of the same pitfalls that The Smokin' Menehunes have. When we first started (The Grass Skirts), we were focused on marketing for private parties and special events as a "Hawaiian" trio that did about 50% traditional Hawaiian and Hapa Haole covers, 25% originals, and 25% "Hawaiianized" rock/pop covers. We learned the hard way that the majority of folks only had an attention span for 2-3 Hawaiian/Hapa Haole songs. They tended to connect more to the pop songs they actually recognized. The money was fair-to-middlin', but staying on top of 3-4 hours of repertoire just lost its fun.

Fast forward a few years later and I can tell you that, without a broad-based tiki community such as most of you guys enjoy, anything that smacks of Hawaiian or tropical stylings is a bit of a harder sell here. We've had to modify our approach in that we've added a drummer, ditched the private party and special events scene and concentrated more on originals (about 70-80%) and clubs that cater to original bands. The neophilia that emspace speaks of is as real here as anywhere else and we're guilty of it to a degree. But we're getting better results and having more fun connecting with the audience rather than wondering, "Why don't they get it??" like before. The few traditional/Hapa Haole musicians left in Hawaii experience the same problem with tourists. Unfortunately, the Wynton Marsalis approach to music isn't going to win people over. Tastes and expectations will always change.

One of those expectations is the visual and aural integration. No great revelation here, but the few videos of bands like the Creepy Creeps, etc. that I've seen feature an exciting visual element that people respond to. As much as I wish it was like the "old days" where the music itself was enough, we're slowly resorting to the same tactics: dancers and other "gimmicks". As a steel player, I'm by nature a shoegazer and shoegazing didn't work for me. What IS working is letting people who are good at the visual do it.

Bands and musicians who are successful on their own terms (whatever that is: creatively, spiritually, socially, commercially) are happy to see others succeed as well and there's no need to piss on the collective tree, so to speak.

[ Edited by: lucas vigor 2016-09-23 13:08 ]

You know, I haven't been posting here for all that long, but it seems like there's a possibility that it's not so much that people don't like the classic / real / whatever-you-want-to-call-it tiki music, but that maybe they're simply not as vocal about it, or don't have anything to add to the conversation other than "I like it".

Lucas, the first time I saw a post by you, I clicked around and saw some videos / listened to some of your music. I liked it quite a bit. The other day, I saw a post by Mr. Ho, did the same thing, really liked that, too.

But I don't live in California. Or Boston. Or Texas. Or Florida. Or Hawaii. So I can't go to shows in any of those places. I'm not much of a socialite anyway (I'm an old, first-time dad with a 3-year-old son), as I'd rather spend my nights and weekends with my wife and son than going out to do "grown-up" stuff. Every blue moon, my wife and I go out, but usually to a movie or a restaurant we've been wanting to try.

None of that means that I don't like Lucas' music, or Mr. Ho's or exotica or Hawaiian music...those are my favorite things to listen to when I'm in a tiki music mood, and, along with some other Polynesian music, exactly what's on my tiki playlist. I don't listen to punk or surf or rockabilly.

So people who like "real tiki music" are out there, even if they don't realize that's what they like. Even if they don't comment here.

Threads like this aren't going to encourage anybody to come out of the woodwork, either, because they're fairly hostile, especially in the (usual) context & tone of tiki.

I gotta say, I wish I could unsubscribe to this thread and share Luki's sentiment and perspective. I rarely post anymore too.

If there is one thing we probably all agree on , it's that tiki -whatever it is - should be fun. Let's keep it positive and perhaps move the heated debates to a private setting. It's kinda sad that there is this much anger and hostility about music, but it's not likely to get resolved on a public web forum.

Cheers everyone,
Mr. HO

Lucas, you have my sympathies with your Tiki frustration. I don't want to add to your grief but I wanted to let you know there's another band performing around as the Smokin' Menehunes. I think they may be responsible for stealing your thunder. I saw them play at both Mojave Oasis and Tiki Caliente this year. They also played a Tikiphile-packed show at the Bahooka last Dec. More recently I saw them open up for Phillip Robert's Waikiki slide show event at DTBC.

I would love to tell you that they were a bad substitute for the original but actually they were really really good. Some of these shows were especially awesome in that they highlighted the great diversity of Tiki Music... Hapa Haole + Hulabilly + Surf + Modern Exotica all on the same bill !! I'm sorry these fake Smokin' Menehunes were getting all the credit due you. They even fooled Jim Tikiyaki into performing with them.

You need to take immediate action against these impostors !!

:)

(Edited to add Mr. Smiley Face)

[ Edited by: JOHN-O 2011-10-16 07:32 ]

[ Edited by: lucas vigor 2016-09-23 13:08 ]

I love the Menehune's !!! Alway have, always will !!! I want a CD !! I love me some Old School Hapa Haole. I wish you or bong would make me a good Comp of that stuff. I don't need Tiki Music to be defined. There is already a genre that most music is falls under, anyway. If you put the word "Tiki" in front of any genre (even "Music") it sounds very generic and "party city-ish" to me.

Lucas, I would like to have a Menehunes CD also. You should reconsider.

I am waiting for my order of blank CDs to arrive. I have to use specific types, since I can't burn from a computer, but a stand-alone apparatus. PM me your mailing addresses and I will see what I can do. .

Do it,Do it, Do it, Do it, Do it, Do it,Do it, Do it, Do it, Do it,
Do it,Do it, Do it, Do it, Do it, Do it,Do it, Do it, Do it, Do it.

Track 3 of Finding Forbidden Island- the new Crazed Mugs cd ROCKS!!!

Here's a dumb question...

Is it still considered Hapa Haole if they're singing in Hawaiian and not English. Stylistically what exactly separates "Hapa Haole" from traditional Hawaiian folk music ??

Also is there a reason why "Hapa Haole" is usually referenced with Tiki culture/history and not the more traditional Hawaiian music ?? Is the latter considered too authentic ??

[ Edited by: JOHN-O 2011-10-16 18:45 ]

Track 3 of Finding Forbidden Island- the new Crazed Mugs cd ROCKS!!!

My CD player mysteriously keeps skipping over that track... :lol:

John,
There's a good, old-school 2003 discussion about Hapa Haole HERE

On 2011-10-16 18:39, JOHN-O wrote:
Here's a dumb question...

Is it still considered Hapa Haole if they're singing in Hawaiian and not English. Stylistically what exactly separates "Hapa Haole" from traditional Hawaiian folk music ??

Also is there a reason why "Hapa Haole" is usually referenced with Tiki culture/history and not the more traditional Hawaiian music ?? Is the latter considered too authentic ??

[ Edited by: JOHN-O 2011-10-16 18:45 ]

[ Edited by: lucas vigor 2016-09-23 13:10 ]

Thanks Lucas !!

Yup, that link that Jonpaul posted was the closest thing I was able to locate as far as a "definitive" Hapa Haole thread was concerned (we don't have too many of them). I did pick up "Hukilau Hulas" a while back based on its great endorsement there. From a Hapa Haole layman's perspective I always associated that style with English lyrics, but wasn't sure if the crooning-style songs sung solely in Hawaiian were also part of the genre.

I've always enjoyed your posts in the Tiki Music forum whether discussing Exotica, Hapa Haole, and mid-century pop lounge. Also it appears there was some real rabid music discussions in the early 2000's but most of those hardcore posters seem to have dropped off.

I've used much of that early content as a road map into "Tiki music", their value as a long-term resource extends far beyond what was intended just as casual music geek conversation. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gb1hLt9s2K0

[ Edited by: lucas vigor 2016-09-23 13:10 ]

I need to post to state the obvious, but Chuck Tatum's words about one person being able to kick another person's ass regarding musical knowledge are definitely not mine, and all my years of listening and I know far too many people who know much, much more about music than I do anyway even if I was into such ridiculous musical one-upmanship (which I'm definitely not).

And I take a lot of issue with any suggestions of The Ding Dong Devils doing what we do for purposes of "coat-tail riding," "to be part of a scene" and particularly to make money. We formed the band organically because of the things we all mutually already enjoyed, and were inspired to write songs about it. And if we're doing it for money, we're extremely miserable failures because the band is 100% a hobby that costs us more money than it takes in, but we do it for the same reason I know I've done every band I've been in since my first one almost 30 years ago--because it's a lot of fun and I love the music we make. I lived (courtesy my mother) through the "original" Tiki/exotica period, was then exposed to the "pre-Tiki revival period" of the late 80's/early 90's, via Steeve and Josh (later Shag) of the Swamp Zombies (and later Tiki Tones), then Otto's contributions to Exoticon and Lee's Dionysus Demolition Derbies (in fact I originally met Randy/aquarj during that period, and I appreciate his well-reasoned words on this subject), and then Sven's book, but it took me many years to become more than an occasional attendee at Tiki events (Tiki has remained just one of many historic and Mid Century Modern design schools I enjoy, just as it is one of many musical avenues I enjoy) and on this forum (I originally signed up in 2004 and forgot my original name and password, and didn't even discover it until I had started posting as Congawa)--really until hooking up with the members of the Ding Dong Devils in our previous band the Fleagles and being inspired by our mutual enjoyment of Tiki and Tiki events. The band was a natural organic process that was fueled by what we were experiencing around us.

I can fully understand the idea of "purism" when it's tied to traditional folk music forms (including slack key and traditional chanting, in the case of Hawaiian), but I don't quite understand the point in drawing a line to restrict forms that were intended as evolving pastiches of different forms, such as Hapa Haole and exotica. Most of the original 1920's/early 1930's Hapa Haole steel guitars such as Sol Hoopii and Andy Iona quickly branched into becoming jazz artists, even evolving their original tunings to do so. Dick and Lani McIntyre started playing with Bing Crosby, and it became a different (but no less great) thing altogether (know Lucas knows all this, because he knows and plays with a musician who made this kind of transition, and who were continuously fortunate to have with us, Bill Tapia). I am a huge western swing fan, and originally learned guitar 30 years ago to form a rockabilly band (though it never exactly happened as such), and I really enjoy bands such as the Lucky Stars and the Dave & Deke Combo who can play the music exactly as it was originally done. I also very much enjoy what the Smokin' Menehunes do. However, just as much, I enjoy bands who come up with new ideas and new combinations, such as the Hula Girls' melding of rockabilly and Hapa Haole (which makes a lot of sense, because one of the main antecedents of rockabilly was western swing, which in turn was influenced by Hawaiian steel guitar). I'm glad I don't have to restrict myself to only liking one or the other, because I'd probably then also have to stop liking Spike Jones, Captain Beefheart, Thelonious Monk and the Angry Samoans, because that would also get in the way of musical purity.

There is a special magic about seeing an exotica group playing in an original Polynesian palace (such as Tikiyaki at the Mai Kai earlier this year, or at Dons in a few weeks), without the taint of that loud rock and roll that these kids seem to listen to these days (I blame that damned Elvis Presley myself, with his long hair and pink suits--he ruined everything, including the very moral fiber of this once-great country!). This year at my first Hukilau, I also saw the great Milwaukee surf band The Exotics at the Mai Kai, just hours before Tikiyaki, and they also blew me away as they always do--even though in 1963 such a band playing that loud rock and roll those long-haired pimply surfer kids are listening to would not have been allowed in the place.

So ultimately, Emspace, I'm not sure what your goal is in trying to restrict what can and can't be called "Tiki Music"? Do you want to have an official arbiter, in the way that only sparkling wine from a certain region can be called Champagne, or only rum made in a specific process in Guyana can be called Demerara? Besides musical groups, you'd also have to restrict audiences for said groups so that they're more in line with audiences during the original era as well. Audiences would have to be restricted to businessmen (briefly discarding their suits and ties for an Aloha shirt) and their meekly-complying, stay-at-home wives (except when they're on a business trip of course--that's when Steve Crane takes care of things) would be allowed. Personally, I far prefer today's Tiki crowds with a bunch of crazy beatniks, highlighted by the opinionated, smart, obnoxious, wise-ass women who fortunately populate today's "Tiki scene" (oops, there's that word "scene" again).

I agree with everything Randy said in his post two days ago, with one exception: the line about the Ding Dong Devils being in it for the chicks. Rama Lama and Nepheria are a couple, and Puka von Pele and myself are both married (though not to each other), so that reason for doing it is also ruled out. (And in the cases of Nepheria and Puka, even if they were single, they still wouldn't be doing it for the chicks--though, let me firmly establish that, from my point of view, there would be nothing wrong with it if they were.)

Caltiki Brent

[ Edited by: lucas vigor 2016-09-23 13:10 ]

You see how humble Brent is? Sorry to drag you into "Music Fight Club" but he knows his stuff folks!
Lucas, you need to keep the fire burning, so keep posting, Cause you kow your stuff too!

Just no need to be a "Jack Wipe" about it, there is nothing Tiki about that.

On 2011-10-17 13:40, Chuck Tatum is Tiki wrote:

Just no need to be a "Jack Wipe" about it, there is nothing Tiki about that.

Funny remark coming from a guy who had to be banned for hounding people who disagreed with him, then snuck back under a new identity like some teenage troll.

But let's not dwell on the past, eh? Because the past isn't Tiki either - is it? :wink:

Speaking of BANNED, I was for most of yesterday, without any warning or notice. Thought that ought to come out here in the forum rather than being between me and a couple of friends. Maybe it was because I wrote the word "shit". Maybe it was because of my insistence that rock 'n' roll in its many variants has nothing to do with Tiki. Probably, if I were to guess, it was the remarks about goatees. :D

Anyway my login was restored some time later. I'll take away this one lesson: don't rock the 21st-century Tiki status quo boat; understand (and I DO, believe me!), that Tiki is like the Learning Channel or Discovery: it needs to roll with the times by absorbing whatever the general public digs in order to maintain its relevance. So TLC gets "Dwarf Chocolatiers", Discovery gets "Are We Ready For an Alien Invasion?" - and Tiki gets punk.

And still, after 12 pages of posts - nobody has addressed Lucas's question about why the Menehunes get passed over for the Creepy Creeps, or why punk can even BE Tiki. That's weak, guys, you disappoint. Meh...at the end of the day it will be what it will be, the Crazed Mugs will splice "Tiki" words into generic pop tunes, God love 'em, and Tiki music will be anything the general public thinks it is.

Malama pono,
em.

[ Edited by: emspace 2011-10-18 09:07 ]

And to Brent: it isn't a matter of whether or not I LIKE something (and I've always loathed rock music as the obnoxious stupid teenage noise it well and truly is), but of whether or not it's Tiki. Thought that was screamingly obvious after all the work I put into my posts, gee whiz. Anyway if you like opinionated smartasses you must LOVE me, so we're cool. :)

And yeah: Champagne is only made in France; you Californians man, you think you own todo el mundo, you crypto-colonialists! :wink:

[ Edited by: emspace 2011-10-18 10:09 ]

On 2011-10-18 08:52, emspace wrote:
...
Speaking of BANNED, I was for most of yesterday, without any warning or notice. Thought that ought to come out here in the forum rather than being between me and a couple of friends. Maybe it was because I wrote the word "shit". Maybe it was because of my insistence that rock 'n' roll in its many variants has nothing to do with Tiki. Probably, if I were to guess, it was the remarks about goatees. :D

emspace, I am certain any problems you had logging in were nothing to do with anything you posted, In other words, I can assure you that you were not banned. Next time you have a problem logging in, go to this page and send a message:
http://www.tikicentral.com/about/contact.php

No kidding? Thanks Hakalugi, good to know and it goes without saying I trust you. It was strange, seemed a little more than coincidental given the remark about a "new terrorist" on the TC Facebook wall, but thanks.

aloha,
em.

One final remark on the subject of rock music in general, sort of a preemptive strike if you will. Before anyone throws "rock and roll is idiot noise? What about Zappa?" at me, three things:

1. Eno called it idiot noise. If a genius celeb can do that, why not little ol' me?

2. When you point out the one in a million exception to the rule, you only strengthen my argument. Anyway I knew dozens of kids from jazz college who were as talented and skillful as Zappa when in their early twenties. But there ya go: they played jazz, where that is expected of them. In rock, you can play a one-note drone on a length of gut stretched over a pig's anus and be thought jaw-droppingly brilliant.

3. You should have the forthrightness to admit that you like rock BECAUSE it's stupid. Rock appeals to the suspended-adolescent i.e. stupid part of you. Frankly, you do rock and its entire history a grave disservice when you argue against this.

So there in a nutshell is MY problem with rock and its inclusion in Tiki. When you hear Hawaiian music and exotica, you are hearing real chops and real compositional skill and talent and an obvious love of sheer beauty; you are hearing the musical AND CULTURAL aesthetics of a bygone era - the era of Tiki. When you hear punk and all this surf-punk or rockabilly-punk, you are hearing snotty, cynical, adolescent rebellion noise of the late 1970s/early 80s, created and performed with a will to enrage, agitate and irritate. It is every bit as archaic a musical form as exotica, but persists because a lot of people tend to cleave to the music of their adolescence well into adulthood - far past a point when it is seemly IMO, if it means having to watch middle-aged dufuses with bellies and gray hair in the mosh pit.

And there it is! Argue all you want; the fact remains that the only argument you have is "I wanted it to change to match my taste, so I made it change", which as an argument just reeks of MEMEMEMEMEMEME!!! But again, as always: do what you gotta do and enjoy. You know, go placidly amid the noise and haste and all that crap. :)

On 2011-10-18 10:08, emspace wrote:

...which as an argument just reeks of MEMEMEMEMEMEME!!!

:D

Well, I thought the bit about middle-aged dufuses was WAY funnier! I'm one myself; I just avoid the mosh pit. :wink:

[ Edited by: lucas vigor 2016-09-23 13:11 ]

Yup, rock's predominance is a result of suits figuring out new ways to line their pockets, plain and simple. Same thing with disco in the Seventies: all these amazing players and vocalists with deadly chops suddenly had to go disco! But at least they HAD chops.

Then a few guys who could barely play their instruments at all decided that loud stupid 3-chord tunes are the true spirit of rock (who am I to argue?) and started playing "punk". Does anyone think the suits hesitated for more than the time it took for the sound pressure waves to reach their eardrums? Was punk TOO daring, too radical? HARDEHAR, it is to laugh! Punk was the sound of jingling cash registers, folks!

Now of course those suits and their numerous parasitic descendants have figured out lots of creative new ways to dispense with musicians altogether, as with pretty much all current R&B - and Tiki Joe's Ocean. :wink:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvpxWKVLN08

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZGYgvq2OJc

Lucas and emspace...

I think you guys should get a hotel room.

Ha ha. :)

http://soundcloud.com/lucas-vigor/sets/set-3/

I AM A SOCIOPATH!

[ Edited by: lucas vigor 2016-09-23 13:11 ]

On 2011-10-18 11:48, lucas vigor wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZGYgvq2OJc

LOVE the costumes, darlings! - the Slipknot of the Tiki scene! :D

[ Edited by: emspace 2011-10-18 11:59 ]

OMG - is that Uncle Bill Tapia with the Menehunes? You buggahs, how did you meet him? That pic is a keeper Lucas, thanx for posting! Maybe I can get a hard copy - in that hotel room? :)

You betcha it is!

So people who can hang with one of Hawaiian music's living legends aren't Tiki enough, but a buncha dorks in Mariachi outfits and skull masks playing punk are. Okay.

And yet, there are still those who think we're wrong about this, Lucas. It's a head-scratcher all right...

Instead of being "Redundant" emspace
at least say something new, I also recommend you get back on your Meds.

On 2011-10-18 12:23, Chuck Tatum is Tiki wrote:
Instead of being "Redundant" emspace
at least say something new, I also recommend you get back on your Meds.

Well Chuck: that's a classic troll remark. Shame on you. Maybe instead you might address our points, eh? That really would be saying something different. :)

[ Edited by: lucas vigor 2016-09-23 13:12 ]

Again, timelessly classic tiki music...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdwLInEvTXo

No fezzes. No face paint. Just classic music.

Well that's cool. Defend away, being off my meds makes me a better writer anyway! :D

What a sweet video man...nice post. Nice necklace too. :)

[ Edited by: emspace 2011-10-18 13:03 ]

[ Edited by: lucas vigor 2016-09-23 13:16 ]

[ Edited by: lucas vigor 2016-09-23 13:16 ]

On 2011-10-18 13:16, lucas vigor wrote:

We have come a long way since then, and not in a good way.

Amen, brother. Amen.

[ Edited by: lucas vigor 2016-09-23 13:17 ]

On 2011-10-18 13:32, lucas vigor wrote:

So don't take what Em and I are saying too personal. You guys are not the ones ruining tiki, in my opinion. You are just speaking for them. But you are like mob lawyers that know their clients are guilty as sin! :)

Big +1 from me on all this. If you take it personally, call someone a douche, tell someone to get on their meds, it really, REALLY makes it sound like you're just reacting in a classic kinda "I am the arbiter of who and what is narrow-minded, and Your Honor, THE PROSECUTION IS BEING NARROW-MINDED!"

And I HATE that, because every living human is narrow-minded in some way or another, and saying so doesn't add anything to the fargin' discussion. The discussion is still about defining Tiki music, last time I checked. :wink:

em out - for now.