that I should have studied Business rather than going to art school.

just wanted to say that.

sam - you can always take your artistic knoweledge & talent and turn it into business by going into "advertising art". It worked for Warhol.

Sam-I-Am, don't start thinkin' about suicide. It's never too late to start over braddah. I'm pushiin' 5 oh and I only started my business 7 years ago. After being fired a couple times and knowing I was smarter then some of my bosses, I created what I wanted to do. So...just do it braddah! And then market yourself with many different forms of advertising.
You know Garth Brooks? The guy majored in Marketing, not music. Marketing is where it's at. I think Swanky might have somethin' to say about this too. He seems to have a talent for it.

I wish I had majored in anything besides Mass Communications - what the hell was I thinking? But don't feel bad about the art degree, my wife majored in art with a concentration on jewelery and metal smithing and now works for a bank...

I wish I had studied programming or sys admin stuff instead of web design. Why, oh why did I listen to the right side of my brain?

em

I don't know if this will help, but I have an art degree and I have come to the conclusion that I am smarter than my boss and all the clients. I have become so bored of doing my regular work, i've decided to do an experiment to help with my mundane tasks of lowering my intellegence to communicate with the caveman I work for. Anyone ever hear of Entropy? Order out of Caos?

Entropy, how can I explain it? I'll take it frame by frame it,
to have you all jumping, shouting saying it.
Let's just say that it's a measure of disorder,
in a system that is closed, like with a border.
It's sorta, like a, well a measurement of randomness,
proposed in 1850 by a German, but wait I digress.
"What the f--- is entropy?", I here the people still exclaiming,
it seems I gotta start the explaining.

You ever drop an egg and on the floor you see it break?
You go and get a mop so you can clean up your mistake.
But did you ever stop to ponder why we know it's true,
if you drop a broken egg you will not get an egg that's new.

That's entropy or E-N-T-R-O to the P to the Y,
the reason why the sun will one day all burn out and die.
Order from disorder is a scientific rarity,
allow me to explain it with a little bit more clarity.
Did I say rarity? I meant impossibility,
at least in a closed system there will always be more entropy.
That's entropy and I hope that you're all down with it,
if you are here's your membership.

Defining entropy as disorder's not complete,
'cause disorder as a definition doesn't cover heat.
So my first definition I would now like to withdraw,
and offer one that fits thermodynamics second law.
First we need to understand that entropy is energy,
energy that can't be used to state it more specifically.
In a closed system entropy always goes up,
that's the second law, now you know what's up.

You can't win, you can't break even, you can't leave the game,
'cause entropy will take it all 'though it seems a shame.
The second law, as we now know, is quite clear to state,
that entropy must increase and not dissipate.

Creationists always try to use the second law,
to disprove evolution, but their theory has a flaw.
The second law is quite precise about where it applies,
only in a closed system must the entropy count rise.
The earth's not a closed system' it's powered by the sun,
so f--- the damn creationists, Doomsday get my gun!
That, in a nutshell, is what entropy's about,
you're now down with a discount.

Sometimes I wonder if the intellegence quotient test conclusion is 168 or am I just insane.

I know, I'm only amusing myself.

oh my point: i'm going to be my own boss soon. I'm tired of being a drone.

Mo-Holler.

• Unkle John: -one man aspiring to be everyone’s favorite unkle.
  http://www.unklejohn.com

[ Edited by: Unkle John on 2003-12-19 22:15 ]

On 2003-12-19 22:01, Unkle John wrote:

Anyone ever hear of Entropy?
[unquote]

[ Edited by: Unga Bunga on 2003-12-19 22:31 ]

LOL!

take advantage of really low interest rates to take out a loan & send yourself to biz school.

2 degrees - 1 art & 1 biz - would give you a nice, well-rounded resume.

take a few night classes.

check out fool.com for plain english financial advice.

look into marketing, advertising & other more 'creative' sides of business.

[ Edited by: Tiki Chris on 2003-12-20 06:29 ]

Marketing isn't creative anymore, they've turned it into a frightening science full of pie charts and math and probablilities and pstchological profiles and scary scary stuff you don't want to know.

Advertising is still fun though.

Art sucks.

Flounder,

I am one of the suits in the group. I was a finance major in college, went through the CPA exam, went back to school for more accounting classes.

I have worked for one of the largest banks in the US and have held corporate jobs for the last decade. Corporate banking, corporate finance, accounting etc etc etc.

I have been consistently employed since graduation from college in jobs that pay just enough to keep up but never to get ahead. My work is consistent and it comes with 2 weeks vacation every year. I usually get an overbearing boss with no spouse or kids or social life who has nothing better to do than work all the time and expect the same of their employees.

You get a 3-4% raise every year unless you do something really fabulous (extremely unlikely). A 3% raise this year would have just covered the increase in health insurance premiums that were forced down our throats ($4000 in premiums per year for a wife and 2 kids).

I dedicated 5 years to my employer delivering consistent results and saving hundreds of thousands of dollars for a billion dollar company. I created most of the procedures in my department and managed to push the department to new levels of productivity at a cost savings.

I created reference binders detailing all the key procedures in the department and cross trained my boss and subordinates to learn all aspects of the department as a loyal responsible manager should. I was a valuable employee. My salary increased almost 15% per year for my first 3 years (reflecting my contributions)

After countless late nights and weekends and 5 years of dedication through several changes in management I was rewarded BY HAVING MY POSITION ELIMINATED 5 DAYS BEFORE CHRISTMAS. Apparently I did such a good job making things easier, they no longer beleived that I was necessary to run it.

It is all fresh in my mind because it happened YESTERDAY 12/19/03.

What does my post have to do with yours you may ask? All choices come with a downside.

I hope that your talent can one day afford you the flexibility and true opportunity that those of us in the corporate world know that we will never enjoy.

I come to Tiki Central because of artistic people like you. In my line of work there aren't very many artistic people at all. Very sterile and uninspiring.

Keep up the great work and may your talents yield you the rewards that you deserve.

PS- That artwork I wanted to purchase from you will have to wait. Sorry

[ Edited by: Monkeyman on 2003-12-20 15:37 ]

Monkeyman, that really does suck! I was kidding when I said art sucks. It really doesn't. I have been an artist and only an artist all my life, I have never done anything else and have never had a real job. It has kept me alive and fed and I have a fantastic life with no boss and no rules. Truthfully I don't even work that much just enough to get by and just enough to be able to afford the things I like to do. This past year has been bad however, my main client has dropped of the ends of the earth. I'm really going to try to make my new art fly, and hopefully make a living soley at this. I use to do surrealist paintings and did really well at it. I use to be in a lot of shows and had a lot of patrons, but got very tired of the time and detail I put into each painting. So I hope I can make my new art work out as well as that did. I'm really sorry about your recent depature from work and I now fell like an ass for my comment. I really have it well and was only kidding. I hope you can find a job that makes you happy and makes you money, so you can by my art!LOL

I want to be clear that I was not being critical of you or your post in any way. I empathize with your feelings and understand how it feels to face uncertainty.

One of the greatest joys I have recently experienced has been the creation of artistic work for others.

Years from now when all of my former co workers have moved on and my name fades into corporate oblivion for procedures that no one really cares about, I know that a few Tiki Central members will be able to look up on the wall at the carved work I created especially for them and say, Hey I know that guy, he made that just for me.

It is a very satisfying feeling.

Derek, I'm sorry to hear about your misfortune. The timing - geez, you'd think they'd have planned it better.

Fred, I'm a firm believer that its never too late to change if you really want to. Currently, I'm a Business Systems Analyst for a Software company. Prior to this I was the Senior Telecom Analyst for the same company. I made the change because of how badly the Telecom market tanked (after the MCI Worldcom fiasco).

And you know what? Prior to Telecom, I was a freelance Architectural Consultant for 13 years. Changing from Architecture to Telecom was an about-face that required I return to school and get another degree (I have a BS degree in Architectural Engineering, a BS in Telecommunications Management, and an AA in Liberal Arts). I just felt that I had done all that I can in architecture and needed a change. I went back to earn another degree because architecture was all I knew.

Make the change if you really feel its what you gotta do. You'll thank yourself iin the long run. Right now, I'm beginning to think that the business world is not for me. I really miss my architectural career and hope to make some changes in 2004 to get myself back there.

You'll never know what you enjoy until you try them all. Good luck on whatever you decide.

Wow, thanks for all the responses, I was just kind of bitchin out of frustration. A job I was suppossed to have started a month ago is still in limbo. But I got some other work lined up for the mean time now. It'll tide me over until this other job starts up. The hassles of freelance.

Sorry to hear about what's been going on with you lately MonkeyMan, I hope this doesn't sound bad but at least it lets me know that taking the safe road isn't always a safety net.

Ahh fuck it I always find a way. And as long as I can keep doing something that I am truly passionate about on the side, work will just keep being what pays the bills. I saw this girl singing at the Garage last time Mig was in town and then saw her again at Teaseorama. I offered to get her a show at a friend of mine's bar in LB called Alex's Bar. That turned into me doing all her booking. I have been setting up some really cool stuff for her for next year and the last time we talked she asked me to just take over all the business for her and be her manager. She is not famous or anything but I love her music and think she is a great performer so even though there is next to no money in it right now I do this gladly because it keeps me from slipping into a coma with the dreariness of my every day life. I've posted a link to this girl's site before http://www.Devil-Doll.com She'll be at The Thunderbird Saloon on Lankershim in N.Hollywood on the 24th of Jan with Rumble King. I'll let you guys know about it when it's getting to the date. Anyone who is into the retro stuff wether it's rockabilly, swing, burlesque, whatever, I guarantee you'll dig this chick.

Well again thanks for all the posts guys. If this board only served alcohol it would be like the perfect local bar. Maybe Hanford can start working on that, a way that the site can serve ya up a drink through the internet line. Or maybe I can just go fix myself a drink.

suicide & monkey:

i think both of your posts shine light on the fact that things are tough all over: in art & business. this is just a real shitty time w/ lots of fall out. i think the economy's gradually getting better & the best we all can do is hang on & be ready when things do pick up.

btw, i mean all of this in an APOLITICAL/NONPOLITICAL sort of way w/ NO INTENSIONS of stirring up debate & disagreement :)

chris

Hang in there Sam. I've been through many of those "I shoulda got a real job and never been an artist" low points in my career, too. I often wonder what it would be like to just have a job I could show up at and not think about, and just do my art on the side. But then some great work comes along and those thought disappear for another couple years.

I think no matter what you end up doing for a career, it will consume you. You can never escape working for people dumber than yourself or people who you will come to genuinely despise. Even when I freelanced I felt many clients were pretty dumb. And the work was often so easy I could do it in my sleep. It paid the bills but wasn't challenging in any way that would hold my interest. I wish I had the magic words to say to make it better, but I guess that's why I'm an artist and not a motivational speaker. :) Best of luck to your continued art career, bro'.

Monkeyman, how many ways is there to say that sucks? So sorry to hear. If only there were a way to harness your creative talents and energies - you'd never be poor again. The creative work you do is phenomenal and is tremendously inspirational to lazy work-a-day artists like myself. I hope you can find the motivation to keep it up in this unfortunate time. Best wishes to you and your family.

Richard

I m just glad that Tailoring has not yet been brought down to the level of one of the exact sciences!

I'm in a creative profession as well, graphic design. I've worked freelance for most of my life since graduating college in '89. Like most artists, I found that there are incredible highs and lows associated with this career path. I've worked on many projects that I'm very proud of and have been quite rewarding. Then there are the projects from hell, difficult clients, pressures of working on your own with no support, blah, blah, blah... Anyway, at a certain point in my life, I decided that I needed to "grow up" and stop screwing around with freelancing because it simply was not providing any stability to my life.

A few years ago I decided to be "responsible" and got a job with a fairly large consulting firm that was secure and paid pretty well but was hopelessly boring and overwhelmed with office politics. I worked tirelessly like a good little loyal dog for them for quite some time. I learned to play the corporate game and and felt I was actually "going somewhere". Then I walk in one day (2 days before Christmas AND the same day my wife and I were closing escrow on our first house) and guess what happens (Monkeyman can you see what's coming)...That's right, out of the blue, with no warning, I was laid off. In fact the entire staff, minus the partners, were laid off that day and not even given a reason. We later found out that the partners had secretly made a series of incredibly bad decisions and sent the company into unrecoverable bankruptcy. Needless to say I totally freaked out. I could not fathom that this company I had worked so hard for and been so loyal to was treating me like that. Many lessons learned with that experience.

I've been incredibly paranoid to trust any company with my livelihood since then. For the past several years I've been freelancing once again with the same story of highs and lows. So, now I'm ready to move to the next level again. I decided to go back to school for business training and get an MBA degree. The point I'm really trying to get at here (finally relating back to the thread) is that I have come to the conclusion that having an art background alone is not enough to take me where I want to go. Then there's the other side of the coin where people who are on the business only side of things are getting screwed just as badly. My hope is that marrying creative talent with business knowledge will provide me with the artistic outlet that I want with the stability and income that I need. Only time will tell...

Sorry about the rant, I guess I was having a flashback. I'm not sure I believe in karma or destiny but things really do almost always work out for the best. Good luck everyone.

ModMana :drink:

Derek, Elizabeth and I were very sorry to hear about the loss of your job. You and your family are in our thoughts.

In furtherance of the misery loves company theme of this thread, I'll take this opportunity to mention that my wife and I are also going through tough times. As nearly everyone that knows us already knows, she's been looking to leave her present position for over a year. As time has gone on, the level of hostility from the management in her present position has increased and the writing is on the wall that her termination is merely a matter of time.

Elizabeth has finally been able to obtain an offer for a great job elsewhere. The same pay as her present position, but more possibility for promotion, better benefits, more prestige, and long-term job security. Best yet, it's doing exactly what she wants to do with her life. Sounds great right?

The only problem is that the new job's in Atlanta, but my job, which I really enjoy, is in Washington, D.C. So for the past couple months she's been making a last ditch effort to find a job in D.C and I've been trying to find a job in Atlanta. Neither of us have received any definitive word. However, both of the possible alternative employments upon which we’re waiting to hear would require pay cuts, and diminishment in long-term career potential and in overall job satisfaction.

Elizabeth is scheduled to begin her new position in Atlanta the beginning of February.

I can only suggest you abandon the life of a suit-monkey and become a Ne'er-do-well.

The pay sucks but the benefits are great.

I hear you--I studied Studio Art and Illustration. I earn less Ks than my age (I seriously think I'm the youngest TCer.) To make ends meet, I clean houses on the weekend, despite having a Master's Degree. But I think that I'm happy. I'm broke, so I gotta be creative with my means. I got a museum job that gives me 4 weeks vacation. Quality of life can still be achieved without the quantity of life. But, money is nice, really nice. My mom's a pharmacist. Pharmacists are in such high demand now and earn great salaries. I sometimes consider that maybe I need to go and get myself a PharD degree.

M C

Your right, money is over rated. Well unless you wish for things, but you know what they say "you can wish in one hand and shit in the other and see which one fills up first".

On 2003-12-23 13:21, Atomic Cocktail wrote:
I can only suggest you abandon the life of a suit-monkey and become a Ne'er-do-well.

The pay sucks but the benefits are great.

Hey! Where's the Blah Blah Blah???!!!

No more kick backs for you Mr.!!!

p.s. If art is in your blood, you will starve your entire life!!! (no matter how stable, unstable, famous or rich you are!)It is the way it is and always will be.

Mele Kalikimaka Tiki Freaks!!!

p.s. If art is in your blood, you will starve your entire life!!! (no matter how stable, unstable, famous or rich you are!)It is the way it is and always will be.

He's right I only weigh a buck forty. I'm very hungry.

To quote a gentleman I know who has great artistic talent but has shelved it and now makes a lot of money putting together high school reunion videos:

"Art for art's sake...
...Money for God's sake."

The timing of my bad news was only coincidence. The intent of my post was to show that there is instability in both choices (art vs business)

Chris,

I really do hope that you solve your spit city/employment issue. It never feels good to do something because you have to and in the process take a step backward.

Rich,

I recall you mentioning that story to me during one of our visits. I am sad to say that I did not fully understand the significance of the tale until now. I need to listen more carefully.

Thanks to everyone who had such insightful replies. You are all a great group of people and I am super thankful for having such awesome friends. Tough times are only here to remind me of how great simple things are.

Watching my 5 year old ride her bike....Having my 3 year old color me a picture. Hearing a loud "Daddy" shouted from both kids as I walk through the door after work. Finishing a carved work with my own two hands. Fixing my wife breakfast etc etc. Hopefully I can remember the importance of those same things even when times are great.

The artists in our group have their hearts in the right place. Unfortunately our society has a slighty different idea of success.

p.s. If art is in your blood, you will starve your entire life!!!

Hey Ben, in your case, is art in your blood, or is your blood in your art? Both?

-Randy

On 2003-12-29 12:30, aquarj wrote:

p.s. If art is in your blood, you will starve your entire life!!!

Hey Ben, in your case, is art in your blood, or is your blood in your art? Both?

-Randy

i was thinking his two front teeth were, last week...