The Root of Jimmy Buffet Bashing

Aloha,

I truly enjoy TikiCentral and all the great conversations out there. I’m pretty new to the whole tiki scene and I’m trying to learn as much as possible about the culture. I’ve got the books, I play the exotica, and I make a fair Mai Tai. I’ve even started my own tiki alter on my back patio with a carving of Ku. Also, I have been a beach bum all my life. I grew up in So Cal and have traveled to Florida and Hawaii several times. I remember the tiki backyards as a child of family friends and I have owned Aloha shirts all my life. I feel that I have a strong appreciation of the aspects of tropical fantasies.

During my late teens and early twenties in the 1980’s I had a strong need to live the tropical fantasy, but Tiki just wasn’t there. This was the low point of the tiki culture, as you know, and there seemed to be only one ray of tropical sunlight shining in pop culture at that time. It was Jimmy Buffet (Oh, gasp!).

I have enjoyed his music for over 20 years. I have been to several of his concerts (but none in the past dozen years or so) and I own most of his works. While he has a few stinkers out there, I enjoy nearly all of his songs. I even conceder myself a “parrot head”; but not the obnoxious, loud-mouthed, frat boy, parrot-wearing junkie that seems to turn others off to J.B.

Now, since joining TC I have read many a negative comment about Mr. Buffet. This is o.k. with me. I’m a big boy and I don’t need someone else’s approval to listen to what I like. However, I am a newbie to the whole tiki scene and was curious as to the root of all the Jimmy Buffet dislike out there. Is it his recent “tiki time” tour? Is it his apparent commercialization that has come with his success (this one does piss me off a bit!)? Is it something else? I would love to have as much feed back on this as possible, if anything it will educate this new tikiphile!

Mahalo

I can only speak for me.
I don't like his songs.
The tambre of his voice reminds me of Hindu music.

"Prayyying all day again in RajaShivaVille."

Island-y? Sorta.
Tiki? Not by a long shot.

That's a fair assessment. You can't like everyone's singing.

I agree about Buffet's lack of tikiness. I definately don't associate him with tiki. However, he has traveled to Tahiti and has even had a lot of polynesian influence in his album, "Son-of-a-Son-of-a-Sailor".

Knowingly or not, J.B. contributed to the decline of Tiki culture, allow me to quote the Book of Tiki, page 52:

"In the 70’s, the thus segregated Polynesian style was watered down further through a certain “Jimmy Buffet-ization”, the introduction of a generic tropical island theme with no definite identity. Be it the Carribean, Mexico, or Polynesia, everywhere was “Margharita-ville”. The popular T.V. show “Fantasy Island” typified this new p.c. detachment from cultural complicity, creating a world of white wicker colonial style decor mixed with exotic plants.
The fern bar replaced the Tiki bar."

It's just two different styles, and we like to keep'em apart. Tiki to us has style, while Buffet represents un-style.

Steve,
This subject often comes up, and there are definitive answers to it. Many members of TC are also fans of Mr. Buffet, personally I enjoy Buffet shows and have seen many. When you talk about Buffet here, you are framing him in the context of the demise of the Tiki Bar.

Americas love for the Tropical Cocktail was popularized in the early 30s and is still alive today. The Heyday of Tiki Temple, however, is long since past. Kon Tiki, Don the Beachcomber, Kon Tiki Ports, The Luau, have long since closed. There are many factors for this shift in popular taste. I would point to the Viet Nam War for helping change popular taste away from South Sea Tropical Fantasies. With Nixon drinking at Trader Vic's young people sought their own form of entertainment, different than their fathers idea of a good time. Also in the 70s popular taste changed from Mai-Tais to Margaritas. Many Tiki bars opted for a generic Tropical theme closer to the Caribbean than the South Pacific. Jimmy Buffet's popularity as well as his image of margaritas on a Caribbean beach was a death knell for the Tiki Bar. Was it Jimmy's fault, no. Did his mystique help shift popular taste, perhaps. So he represents a change in a culture we very much love.
Mahalo,
Al
( I was typing this up at the same time as Big Bro excellent post. Now mines a little redundant. Excuse me)

[ Edited by: Alnshely on 2003-12-18 20:28 ]

Tikisteve-

I think part of the whole Buffet turn-off stems from the example you mentioned of "loud-mouthed, frat boy, parrot-wearing" people. At least for me it does. But the Grateful Dead have always gotten a bad rap because of the people that followed them, especially the ones in the late eighties who were so desperately trying to re-live the hippie life. I can see why people disike the Dead because of that. I still think they're great, and I just ignore the frat guys that were following them to be cool. I mean c'mon, when your parents finance your education at an Ivy league school and it's the 1980s, there ain't that much to rebel against except maybe bad taste.

[ Edited by: donhonyc 2016-02-20 22:44 ]

I am a snob, and that's why I don't like Jimmy Buffett.

[ Edited by: Sam Gambino on 2005-04-10 11:53 ]

I really like the way Sam Gambino and Alnshely explained this. For me, its more along the lines of what Sam said above. In the heydey of the Polynesian Pop era it was considered a formal affair when visiting a Polynesian restaurant - Don the Beachcomer, Trader Vics; people would dress up to have dinner there. These were exotic restaurants with exotic meals in exotic surroundings.

Jimmy Buffet is more of the Caribbean and/or South of the Border beach-bar lifestyle. Not exotic by any means but more "lets get drunk and screw." When I picture a Jimmy Buffet gathering, I picture tequila shots, Corona Extra and Fish Tacos.

**Poly-Pop ***

He who dies with the most broken mugs WINS!

[ Edited by: PolynesianPop on 2003-12-19 08:03 ]

We all have things we hate and things we love. Me I happen to like tiki and I happen to be a Parrothead. I don't think it matters what others like or not. If you like it that should be good enough.

I don't think anybody is telling anyone else NOT to be a Buffet fan, they are just explaining why they themselves are not a Buffett fan, since someone asked.

Me, I'm with BK. I'm just a snob. ha ha!

Me too - a snob. An elitist pig, in fact.

:)
em.

There's some Buffet I like, "Pencil Thin Moustache" comes to mind, but too much of his music is too '70s generic. It's like a soft rock band covering Eric Clapton covering "I Shot the Sherriff." I was forced to listen to his Christmas album nearly a dozen times while in Chicago the other week and all the songs sounded too smooth and all blended togeather, kinda like strained peas. I think the man's getting stretched a little thin, I mean he's an industry: 2 restaurant chains, a record label, a publishing company, the Margaritaville Foods company, the Margaritaville Stores, he's writing books and flying all over in his various planes. Add his tour schedule & when does he have time to put together new music?

It's the obnoxious part of the loud frat boys fans that made me dislike Buffet so much. What is it that makes anyone think getting in someone's face will make them like what you like?

Well no matter what everybody else says, i still like drinking margaritas, being lazy carefree beach bum who just wants to lie on the beach all day, & partying without a purpose in Baja!

Watching the news last night, I caught the video of the lavish party thrown by
scandalized Tyco exec Dennis Kowzlowski. I may be wrong, but I swear, along with the vodka urinating ice sculpture of Michelangelo and the frolicing toga-clad celebrities was Jimmy Buffet in private concert. Anyone see this?

For me (and I speak for myself) I was a (note the was) a Parrothead. If Buffett came within reasonable distance and had a concert I was there. I have the albums, drank the margarittas, etc.

Since I have gone "Pacific" (I prefer that to tiki and as opposed to Caribbean), I find that Buffett has seem to lost "something". What? I really cannot explain. I guess it is more than an evolution thing.

I agree that there is something to the comments regarding Frat Boy mentality and the fact that he is so commercialized. I also feel that he is definitely more South of the Border and Caribbean. If you look at the One Particular Harbour album there are photographs of him in Tahiti. Then the music is more a mix match with Brown Eyed Girl (to me the most overplayed song in the world but boy do I love Van Morrison) and Stars on the Water about Mobile, Alabama.

I still listen to him now and then. Will I fork out the money for a concert? No. I just find that I will grab an exotica CD over him.

I also cannot drink margarita's anymore (something about waking up naked in front yard) but do like the Mexican beers.

I think the whole thing should be settled with a tikihead vs parrothead knife fight in an abandoned used car lot.

But watch out, Tequila makes people meeeeeeeeeaaan!

I'll bring a war club.

Honestly I don't care either way. I don't his music, but hey if his legions of fans get the groovies from him, hey its their party.

All the non parrot heads have to do is have their own ragin' time, and enjoy the ride.

Perhaps Tiki/Parrothead followers should remebmer the line from George Carlin about how religion ( insert tiki or buffet ) is like a lift in your shoe. It allows you to see the world differently. But don't try to make me wear your shoes, and lets not go nailing lifts to the natives feet.

Now lets get on to the real debate Tiki vs The Olsen Twins....

TG

"most of his works" - quoting tikisteve.

This sums up the problem. Mozart has works, Dickens has works, Rembrandt has works and I will grant you that someday a human society may devolve to the point where a buffet tune could be considered a "work", but we are not quite there yet.

On 2003-12-19 11:32, mrtikibar wrote:
...was Jimmy Buffet in private concert. Anyone see this?

I did not see it, but I had heard about that awhile ago. Yes, that was the aforementioned Mr. Buffet.

Me, I don't like his music. Then again, I'm sure he doesn't like mine either! And please don't tell me I don't understand because I've never been to a Buffet show, as friends of my wife often do. I've never been to prison, but I know I don't like it!

I don't like it because it smacks of commercialism.

Some of the lyrics are catchy, some of the music is fun, but it seems like the songs are made to be marketed, like movie soundtracks. And it isn't commercialism in a kitschy way, you can tell he is creating these songs to make more money.

I would classify it in the same musical group as american idol, britney spears, boy-bands, etc.

After reading what I wrote, maybe the true answer is that I'm a music snob...

edit
Wow, I sound like a commie.
end edit

[ Edited by: tiki-oski on 2003-12-19 16:40 ]

Never insult another man until you've walked a mile in his shoes.

Because then you'll be a mile away...

...and you'll have his shoes!!

:)

I kind of like Buffet's economic policies.

I agree with many if not most of the above posts.

One thing to add as an 'also':

Within any social subculture, there is always that sort of mild annoyance that happens when laypeople misunderstand the interests that we are so deeply entrenched in. We sometimes forget that our clan is relatively small, and that not everyone in the outside world is an expert, and in fact few people besides us even really care.

For instance, when I was a teenager in the early 1980s with my red mohawk(!), I hated being called 'new wave' by people, because (in my mind), I was clearly 'punk rock', and the two were (in my mind) clearly different.

I know Star Wars geeks who LOATHE it when people assume they like Star Trek.

I know sound engineers who will KILL you for calling them a "roadie".

I know nurses who will chew you out for thinking that they are just assistants to doctors.

I am sure there are entymologists out there who want to throttle people who confuse butterflies and moths, or that assume they like beetles because they like butterflies.

As any social group eventually becomes clearly defined, it is then easy for them to get annoyed when people lump them in with marginally related things, particularly ones that have (in the minds of the members of the group) less than flattering connotations.

So -

To the layman, Parrotheadedness is not so different from Tikiness, but WE know that it is clearly different enough (for most of us) to enjoy one but not want to be associated with the other (I know there are people here who are exceptions).

But since the A LOT (not all) of Tikiphiles are rubbed the wrong way by Buffett's clan, I think that this annoyance is exaggerated exponentially due to the fact that those not "in the know" (i.e. the press, your aunt, frat boys, store clerks, that guy who was looking at you funny this afternoon, bar tenders...) so frequently merge the two.

It is almost as if, in order to maintain a mainstream perception of autonomy between Buffett's stoners and Trader Vic's loyal minions, we have to get triple offended when innocent confusion between the two groups (who admittedly have overlapping characteristics) occurs.

And the more it occurs, the more annoyed we get, until the annoyance and rivalry is unnaturally inflated. We create a rift that is bigger than it needs to be so that the separation is clear to people outside of our community.

And then...

Oh, what was I saying?

Give me another mai tai, I lost my train of thought.

Well said Tikibars, I couldn't agree more. It's kinda like when I was a teenager who was really into music & audio and now I have a box in the basement somewhere full of musical note motif'd coffee mugs & shiney brass musical note keychains from countless birthday gifts. Todays' equivilant is semi-tropical salt & pepper shakers from who-knows-where (probably Walmart- gasp!) or anything Tommy Bahama. UGH!

-Z

Buffet is Margaritaville, not MaiTaiville. My opinion is that the only thing particlulary tiki about him is that he happens to live in South Florida, which has an an excellent tiki history (Tiki Gardens) and an excellent tiki vibe (Mai Kai, for example).

Margaritaville should be in San Diego or Baja, not Florida, based on its proximity to Mexico, where tequila is made.

However, I do give him some (non-tiki) props for his participation in the "Save the Manatees" campaign.

Q: What does a Jimmy Buffett fan say when the booze wears off?

A: Man, this music SUCKS!

TIKI is old-school 30's-60's South Pacific style. The days of "ma'am and yes sir" Relaxing, soothing sounds and polite "respectable" hedonism.

BUFFET is late 70's to 80's Miami/Carribean style. Pink T-shirts under white Don Johnson jackets with the sleeves scrunched up. Bad cotton "Hawaiian shirts" with colorful parrots on em, and too much chesthair poking out. Rowdy "party" tunes with lyrics that try too hard to be "funny".. puking off the side of your boat in the keys (or more likely the grimy bathroom floor of a cheezy 80's hotel 'tiki bar' with white molded plastic lawn chairs) and then proudly recanting the tale around the water cooler on monday morning as if it's some type of "accomplishment" or "experience"

[ Edited by: fatuhiva on 2003-12-19 21:19 ]

I think I understand the long-time tikiphiles' frustration with this although in my limited experience, sports bars vie with Buffetization. I visited my first tiki bar, Kon-Tiki in Tucson, several times during the fall. It was fine during the day in the early part of the week. Though not exotica, the music was subdued and the customers were engaged in quiet conversations.

I enjoyed roaming around and shooting pics of the thickly tikified interior as if I were documenting the minutia of a lost civilization: loads of tikis (brightly painted, but tikis), that scary blue woman painting (the appeal of which I don't get), puffer fish, glass balls, aquariums, a stained-glass scene, nets, a huge ex-bird area that now houses a lizard, huts which compartmentalized the place and gave one a sense of moving from public to private spaces, tapa covering everything...I felt like Howard Carter in Tut's tomb, tiki-style. The manager was so taken with my interest that he gave me a tiki mug they planned to start serving drinks in soon.

Toward the end of the week, evenings got rowdier, the TVs and music were turned up and yes, I'm sure I heard Buffet soundtracking the young men yelling to each other, though the TVs were as intrusive.

I wish it'd had proper music to complete the classic effect; but on the other hand, it serves its patrons, stays in business and isn't "newly remodeled." As a result, tiki novices like me can be lured in by the magnificent sign and catch an echo of what once was.

Did many bars morph from tiki to generic tropical to sports bar?

Now you can drive them even crazier.

http://launch.yahoo.com/ringtones/artist.asp?artistID=1003960

I like Jimmy Buffet. When I first joined Tiki Central I said something about liking Jimmy Buffet and I thought I was going to get beat up for it. Well I'm not afraid anymore. I LIKE JIMMY BUFFET! For me it has nothing to do with the tiki culture, but it has a lot to do with Florida culture. I admit it's a little cheesy as far a music goes, but I like to listen to it, it reminds me of the reasons I moved to Florida in the first place. I also like to listen to the beachboys and Jan & Dean for the same reasons. If this makes me less tiki so be it!

Don't worry, Flounder, no one's gonna beat you up for liking Jimmy Buffet. They're gonna beat you up for that hair-do!

On 2003-12-20 14:52, FLOUNDERart wrote:
I like Jimmy Buffet.. .. If this makes me less tiki so be it!

It's fine flounder, let your Buffet freak flag fly high!

Alright! Alright! Why don't we all just get drunk and ......

Flounder, I WAS gonna bring you all sorts of goodies to the Hawaiian Inn... but now...

Well, maybe a few things.

Let me just predict that by the time January 18th rolls around, you'll be a Braddah Iz freak. There will be no more time for Buffett.

And you'll weep for all of the wasted hours. Your taste for Old Milwaukee will dissapate. You'll stop watching WWF. You'll suddenly be able to surf. Treasure will wash up at your feet. Your paintings will hang in the Louvre, The Smithsonian and the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.

You coined the phrase "East Coast Tiki Revival" and by Ku, you will witness its power.

Or at least get a killer buzz for a few days.

Is it January yet?

Freddiefreelance, you can beat my mom up for that atrocity.

TikiGardener, thanks for the permission.

Sungod, I'm already drunk.

Pablus. oh Pablus. I still would like goodies. What is Braddah Iz freak? Old Milwaukee runs in my vains, although all the Old Milwaukee in the world couldn't get me to watch WWF, I can surf I just never been on a board before, and I'd rather my paintings never hang in such fine museums. Oh, did I mention I would still like goodies!

East Coast Tiki Revival!

Please bring me goodies, I like goodies.

Braddah Iz

... not to be missed!

Hope I don't piss anuone off with my two cents: Jimmy Buffet makes no sense to me, and never has! In my opinion, his music is very watered down lite-country, mediocre, not very original...much like the grateful dead...another band I don't care much for. They are also lite-country, but with space jams right in the middle, and totally out of context with the rest of their diatonic music..Equally, (to my ears at least,) Buffet is lite-country with south of the border textures. Tex mex music is a better example of a melding of cultures!

On 2003-12-21 15:07, FLOUNDERart wrote:
TikiGardener, thanks for the permission.

Actually it's enthusiastic encouragement. Get a flag pole, and run a huge Buffetylvania flag up it!

TG

I think what a lot of tikiphiles find unfortunate is that lots of folks confuse "tropical" with "tiki." Mr. Buffett has recorded songs in Tahitian, sailed Polynesia, even contracted malaria in Bora Bora (!), and has enjoyed more genuine tiki/South Pacific experiences than most of us ever will. HE knows tiki, but many of his fans do not. Can't fault the guy for that.

Is he a businessman? You betcha! Is he an opportunist? Sure, just enough to become a gazillionaire. Do I love a lot of his music and appreciate him as a poet and songwriter? Absolutely.

I have the advantage (or disadvantage, depending on where you're coming from ) of having listened to all 30+ of JB's albums, so naturally I've seen beyond the "drunk frat boy" image. He's recorded some amazing music, but sadly most of it is buried among dumb songs about cheeseburgers and getting drunk and screwing, songs that he himself admits to being sick of.

The goofy thing is, Buffett knows true tiki. Too bad his fans don't educate themselves further. So wherever possible, I have elected to make that my job. :)

[ Edited by: WickDiesel on 2003-12-23 19:02 ]

Yeah, Jimmy Buffet he suck. Goooooo Braddah IZ!
Son of a Son of a bitch.

Merry Christmas
Original Art by Flounder

http://www.flounderart.com

[ Edited by: FLOUNDERart on 2003-12-23 19:16 ]

"The guy may know Tiki but he ain't sharing any of his knowledge."

No way, man! He's been asked time and time again where's that One Particular Harbour, but he ain't talking.
He will, however, sell as much overpriced crap folks will buy. :wink:

The Bruddah Iz comparison brings up a point worth debating: is it possible we're doing a further disservice by wasting our breath preaching to the converted that Buffett != Tiki? After all, we yak and yak and yak and yak about exactly, precisely, definitively, why Buffett makes us all itchy, and how much breath have we spent spreading the gospel of Bruddah Iz??

From now on, should the name Buffett pass my lips, even if it's only to point out the distinction between "tropical" and "tiki," I shall say three Hail Izzes as penance.

The best tiki bar is the one that's within stumbling distance of your bed
The Humuhumu Room

[ Edited by: Humuhumu on 2003-12-23 23:03 ]

hmmmm, is WickDiesel Jimmy Buffett?

I'll say it again here, I like Jimmy Buffett's music and I don't shiv a git if it ain't tiki. I thank God I have the ears to hear music.

"If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much space." Lou Whitaker

[ Edited by: jungletrader on 2003-12-23 23:16 ]

Would yall' still complain if Buffet and his camp went totally -TC- tiki tomorrow? Hell yes you would! Then he'd be a "Sell Out" to most of you. "He ruined our little underground kitch poly secret society!! wah wah wah!!! He sold us out!!"

This board would melt if it got out that he was posting on it.

(p.s. blue grass roots )

Reverend,

I'd have a picture of him in my wallet if he'd open a real Tiki bar at that Universal venue in Orlando.

If he ever actually did visit TC - he'd already have hired you to deck those halls.

Could you imagine the place that the artists here could build with a budget like that guy could fund? Man 'o mana.

Come on in, Jimbo!
Don't pay any attention to my spewings.
Have a Mai Tai. Let's talk Tiki.

Hail Iz
Full of Poi
The Tiki is with thee...

To everyone,

I knew that when I originally posted this topic that it would stroke some people to get them talking. However, I didn't think that it would stay a hot topic this long. Thanks to all for your ideas/feelings/thoughts about Mr. J.B.

I agree with some of you that there are some negetive aspects of the Parrotheads out there and Buffet's mass-maketing comercialism has gotten way out of control. I also agree that Buffet is not Tiki, but the appreciation of one does not exclude the other. They are just different means to a similar end. We long to lose ourselves, if only in temporary, alcohol-induced states, to a simpler, exotic life. I appeciate the music of Mr. Buffet as well as the Exotica of Denny, Lehman, and Baxter. And for these reasons will continue to get lost in the tropics; either with J.B. and a Cadillac margarita, or with Martin Denny and a good Mai Tai.

Mahalo, once again for all of your input, and Mele Kalikimaka!

TikiSteve