The Tikipedia

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I agree that if you are creating a Tikipedia you'll definitely need to know your tiki history. Book of Tiki and Tiki Modern are a must but I also think that Sippin' Safari by Jeff Berry is essential. There is a chapter there on the history of the growth of the tiki bar and the men who started it all (not just Donn Beach). There's a lot of information at this link too, also written by Jeff Berry:

http://www.tiki-ti.com/pages/ray.html

I have the Book of Tiki and I refer to it frequently. I haven't managed to score a book of Tiki Modern yet because I can't find one I can afford (used copies start on Amazon at $150!).

I, like many others, am often confused by the things that are included as tiki and the things that aren't. Being able to ask these questions from The Man Himself is definitely helpful—even if there's no consensus on what tiki is, there's guidance from the man who helped to revive what so many have enjoyed.

I'll read through that thread, put together what I think is a somewhat representative definite, and get it up on Tikipedia for others to start tweaking.

Good God. I'm only three pages into that thread and I already feel like I need a drink. These are some adamant arguments, I tells ya.

which thread??

On 2014-01-27 12:57, JOHN-O wrote:
I would encourage people to read this thread if they haven't yet. Unfortunately it spiraled out of control and had to be locked, but I think there's a lot of thoughtful discussion contained in it...

http://www.tikicentral.com/viewtopic.php?topic=31087&forum=1

Also I hate to say this, but have any of you read the "Book of Tiki" or "Tiki Modern" ?? (Sorry, it doesn't seem that way). If not, that should be the first prerequisite before starting a Wiki page on Tiki. :)

This one.

Up to page 8 now (slow going as I take notes and do research). One thing that is readily apparent, and is often one of my gripes about TC: People tend to get upset whenever a "serious" discussion pops up here. There are constant attempts to derail the thread with humor and, less often, insults. I see now why Sven made the allegation about just making Tiki into an abstract "FUN" thing.

The "FUN" would be the Tiki Revival's reinterpretation of Tiki to include Rockabilly, burlesque, hot rods, spies, beatniks, etc. etc. While all this stuff might detract from, or arguably dilute Tiki-style's uniqueness as an American pop cultural art form, it is fun.

Really really fun. :)

[ Edited by: JOHN-O 2014-01-27 19:02 ]

BOT laid the groundwork and is still the definitive Tiki-style resource, along with TM. (And a new Sven book is coming out, yay !!)

It seems like you guys are trying to reinvent the wheel. And we already have TC. If I've misinterpreted your intentions then I wish you Good Luck. :)

On 2014-01-27 19:20, JOHN-O wrote:
BOT laid the groundwork and is still the definitive Tiki-style resource, along with TM. (And a new Sven book is coming out, yay !!)

It seems like you guys are trying to reinvent the wheel. And we already have TC. If I've misinterpreted your intentions then I wish you Good Luck. :)

I think they just want to put it all on one page. Instead of having to search everything on TC, etc. I like it. Make it easier for the Tiki newbies instead of them getting yelled at here. Good stuff!

On 2014-01-27 19:20, JOHN-O wrote:

It seems like you guys are trying to reinvent the wheel.

hmm...i wonder if the folks from britannica ever said that to the people over at wikipedia. have you ever used wikipedia? chances are you have. you already have TC? well then i guess you have all you need and need no further resources for information. our site wouldnt be for you then but it's definitely for me which is the main reason why i started it. i wanted one location to have all the information i could ever want on tiki. the whos, whats, whens, wheres, whys and hows. will it ever become that? we can only hope.

[ Edited by: nomeus 2014-01-27 20:21 ]

On 2014-01-27 20:04, RevBambooBen wrote:

I think they just want to put it all on one page. Instead of having to search everything on TC, etc. I like it. Make it easier for the Tiki newbies instead of them getting yelled at here. Good stuff!

Alright, I took a stab at it: http://www.thetikipedia.com/doku/doku.php?id=culture:tiki_style

Disagree with something? Go change it. :wink:

JOHN-O: Tiki Central is the place to have discussions about the things you read at Tikipedia. It's for the academic side of Tiki, not the "fun" side that people keep talking about (although I'd like to think there'll be a little crossover). Sure Wikipedia covers a few of these topics, but they aren't tiki focused; you have to wade through a ton of stuff that isn't relevant. Plus, there's lots of stuff that isn't listed.

Bamboo Ben: Thanks! You should put together a bio for a page. You definitely play an important part.

T-shirts based on vintage tiki matchbooks: TikiTees

[ Edited by: TikiTacky 2014-01-27 20:14 ]

[ Edited by: TikiTacky 2014-01-27 20:25 ]

you just bang that out, tacky? thats a great article!

I wrote it hopped up on Norco, I hope it makes sense. It's the only way I can sit at the computer right now.

On 2014-01-27 11:09, bigbrotiki wrote:

On 2014-01-27 10:53, TikiTacky wrote:
Serious question: There seems to be a lot of debate as to whether something is "tiki" or not, yet tiki seems to be a generic term at this point for anything Polynesian themed. What is the distinction between saying something is tiki and saying it's Poly-Pop, aside from the fact that they may have used tiki imagery? It seems like splitting hairs, but maybe I'm missing something.

You are aiming to write the TIKIPEDIA, and you think it's splitting hairs to differentiate between Polynesian Pop and Pre-Tiki, and the Tiki period !? I thought the aim was to DEFINE Tiki style.

Well, you might as well ride the wave, make the site a party and cocktail site along with many of those documentaries. Fact is before the Book of Tiki came out, many of these places and things were called "Hawaiian" and "Polynesian" and "Tropical". And you know what? They still are - UNLESS they employed the Tiki image in their architecture, design and graphics.

I know people don't like to think, differentiate, or get their bubbles burst. So just continue along the happy path of throwing it all together - it's just supposed to be fun, after all, right ?

Sorry, but I am really tired to explain it, can't somebody else do it, PLEASE !? I have done it way too many times, in fact I just did it in my two lasts posts above, if that does not do it, together with my chart, I dunno…

…the boulder just rolled down again.

[ Edited by: bigbrotiki 2014-01-27 11:22 ]

Hey I do that all the time, but just get called a asshole or the Tiki Police for doing so
but hey I don't care so I will hang in there, but for us older baby boomers whom grew up with Tiki
we just know what is is, because we were a part of it, for many others here, they are just playing catch up.

"Tiki is not PC & neither am I"

On 2014-01-27 18:58, JOHN-O wrote:
...reinterpretation of Tiki to include Rockabilly, burlesque, hot rods, spies, beatniks, etc. etc.

Some day there will have to be a new name coined for all this consolidated stuff. It's not so much a re-interpretation of tiki as it is a bunch of other fun stuff piled together. So you're now getting tiki, cocktails, fast cars, sexy women, etc. Wow, it's as if tiki alone wasn't fun by itself.

Not so bad, I could never compose anything so brief and simple.

The last paragraph perpetuates a central misunderstanding: When I write and talk about Tiki style, I do it from the perspective of an ART lover, or, as you will, art historian. That is what my definitions are aiming at.

Many of today's Tiki revivalists are more into the LIFESTYLE, i.e. cocktails, events, and hanging out in bars, not as much architecture and design. So they wonder what the heck I am talking about. :)

thanks again sven for chiming in on all of this :tiki:

Glad you like it. Apparently I did finally get what you were talking about. :wink:

Sven, you lead people into greater depths they otherwise would not discover or pay attention to on their own. Tiki is multi-faceted. Those who do not come to recognize that are missing out. While there is nothing wrong with escapism, there is much to be gained by standing on yours, and others, shoulders and going deeper.

On 2014-01-27 20:56, AceExplorer wrote:

On 2014-01-27 18:58, JOHN-O wrote:
...reinterpretation of Tiki to include Rockabilly, burlesque, hot rods, spies, beatniks, etc. etc.

Some day there will have to be a new name coined for all this consolidated stuff. It's not so much a re-interpretation of tiki as it is a bunch of other fun stuff piled together. So you're now getting tiki, cocktails, fast cars, sexy women, etc. Wow, it's as if tiki alone wasn't fun by itself.

These are just two different things: One was the original mid-century Tiki style, the other is the TIKI REVIVAL. Both related, but not the same.

I see it this way: Mid-century Tiki was the result of broad, widespread popular awareness and interest in Hawaiian and Polynesian culture in America. This popular base does not exist anymore today, so folks are making up for that by connecting it to other genres. Yet doing so breeds the danger of diluting and bastardizing it.

On 2014-01-27 21:07, AceExplorer wrote:
Sven, you lead people into greater depths they otherwise would not discover or pay attention to on their own. Tiki is multi-faceted. Those who do not come to recognize that are missing out. While there is nothing wrong with escapism, there is much to be gained by standing on yours, and others, shoulders and going deeper.

Thanks, it's just what your game is. I get as much kick out of a previously unseen vintage Tiki find as out of a well-mixed Three Dots & and a Dash. l like having fun, but with a cultural context.

Sven, in a lot of ways you remind me of my dad. He was a big-wig in high-end audio back in the day, and was always very specific about what he thought its goals should be. Over time they were diluted and changed, and he ended up sort of giving up on the whole mess. He was a bit of a purist, and definitely a curmudgeon.

Hmmm…before I got into Tiki, I was into Samurai culture. I like to see myself as one of them:

"In the changing of the times, they were like autumn lightning, a thing out of season, an empty promise of rain that would fall unheeded on fields already bare"

The Daimyo of Tiki? Brobunaga?

On 2014-01-27 21:14, bigbrotiki wrote:
I see it this way: Mid-century Tiki was the result of broad, widespread popular awareness and interest in Hawaiian and Polynesian culture in America. This popular base does not exist anymore today, so folks are making up for that by connecting it to other genres. Yet doing so breeds the danger of diluting and bastardizing it.

Solid point Sven, I wish more people got that.

Took a look at your site & I have to disagree with with this statement
"The public's need for island escapism was dramatically altered by the onset of the Vietnam war."

As the Vietnam war officially started in 1959, direct U.S. involvement in 1963 when Ngo Dinh Diem was elected
in a general democratic election only to be killed during a coup supported by the United States.

A year later after the Gulf of Tonkin Incident (1964) The U.S. sent in the first ground troops
all of this during a popular time for the Tiki Bar.

I would say it was the 1970s Pop culture & so called "Me" generation that was the nail in the Tiki coffin
all things Mid Century were out of vogue (Tiki included) as a result, Free Sex, Drugs, Disco etc. was the new escapism.

plastic paradise stated that (paraphrasing) the vietnam war basically killed tiki. soldiers coming back from the war in the 70s wanted nothing to do with the tropics and those themes. also what people were more into was sex, drugs and rock-n-roll. tiki souvenirs were hidden in attics and basements and were more of an embarrassment than celebrated.

*to keep this thread more on topic, check this out...good job TT!

http://www.thetikipedia.com/doku/doku.php?id=culture:tiki_style

On 2014-01-27 22:06, nomeus wrote:
plastic paradise stated that (paraphrasing) the vietnam war basically killed tiki. soldiers coming back from the war in the 70s wanted nothing to do with the tropics and those themes. also what people were more into was sex, drugs and rock-n-roll. tiki souvenirs were hidden in attics and basements and were more of an embarrassment than celebrated.

Plastic paradise is who? (the documentary I know, but who is behind it & making the assumption?)
once again since I was around then I whole heartily disagree & given the timeline for the start of the Vietnam War
As I already mentioned, This is the first I have heard of Vietnam Vets not wanting anything to do with Tiki Bars
after the war, I myself missed the draft by six months, but have spent a bit of time with many Vietnam War Vets
during my "Motorcycle Years"

the 70s

Tiki was popular in 1964 - but with WHO: The Frances Langfords and Nixons…

…the old guard, the so-called establishment, who could not understand that their children were demonstrating against the Vietnam war. Here is a 1965 LOOK magazine cover featuring a bathing beauty on Waikiki Beach:

Note that she is NOT a Hula Girl. Read the headlines: Honululu - Trouble in Paradise…What caused the California campus revolt…The Future of the FBI...
The times were changing. The Polynesian pop cliches were wearing thin, palm trees and native huts were burning from American Napalm, and American soldiers were not seen as the same heroes they had been in the Pacific: The My Lai massacre shocked the nation, and brought back memories of Wounded Knee, and the mistreatment of native cultures in general. The time for exoticism was over. This button says it all:

I think the point is that the Vietnam War changed the image of grass huts from that of tropical escape to that of soldiers burning down villages in an unpopular war. Also Tiki was the creation of "The Man", something the emerging counter culture wanted nothing to do with.

Edit - the Bigbro posted a milli-second before me.

[ Edited by: JOHN-O 2014-01-27 22:43 ]

I would say change " The onset" of the Vietnam War to "as the Vietnam War escalated and was condemned by the younger generation" or something...

That would be more accurate, but I could say the Hippies had more to do with it
it was a political & youth culture effect, but don't forget the Hollywood scene, Ratpack
(or as John-O might put it, "The Man") still hung strong in Vegas & Tiki Bars through out the country.

But Hippidom began already in the late 1960s.
I am covering all that in the Tiki Devolution chapter in my new book:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDqfywQua5E

And I am NOT condemning it. It was an amazing, radical generation gap. I wish the youth of today would get off their asses like that.

(None of these images are for Tikipedia use, please)

No worries!

Nice segueway Sven!

On 2014-01-27 22:44, bigbrotiki wrote:
I would say change " The onset" of the Vietnam War to "as the Vietnam War escalated and was condemned by the younger generation" or something...

Click Register, then after you log in click "Edit this page" and you can modify to your heart's content. :wink:

sven editing articles on tikipedia? now THAT would be most awesome!

Sorry guys, but you helped me procrastinate another day on my writing for my book, that's all for now. As you can see by my last posts, I am not writer, I am a visual storyteller, and writing is hard labor for me, so I have to go into seclusion now.

it was fun while it lasted! :D

On 2014-01-27 21:29, bigbrotiki wrote:
Hmmm…before I got into Tiki, I was into Samurai culture. I like to see myself as one of them:

"In the changing of the times, they were like autumn lightning, a thing out of season, an empty promise of rain that would fall unheeded on fields already bare"

Wow, didn't know that! me too, and I still am (because of my love of martial arts). The Hagakure is prominently displayed in my office at work, and I have relied on it for management techniques.....well, except for the part about wearing rouge, that is!

great quote, by the way.

On 2014-01-27 18:47, TikiTacky wrote:
Up to page 8 now (slow going as I take notes and do research). One thing that is readily apparent, and is often one of my gripes about TC: People tend to get upset whenever a "serious" discussion pops up here. There are constant attempts to derail the thread with humor and, less often, insults. I see now why Sven made the allegation about just making Tiki into an abstract "FUN" thing.

Well, not exactly....we often engage in spirited discussions, about a subject we all love (at least we all agree on THAT)...and I recently discussed this with atomic punk tiki at the IMTP event.....people don't see the smiles on our faces when we are typing...they picture us all mad and red faced, slamming at the keyboard in anger....that is REALLY not the case most of the time!
The problem I have always had with Tiki central is that as soon as you bring something up that is not all warm and fuzzy and congratulatory...or you offer a criticism that goes against the herd mentality...you end up getting skewered!

Most of the time, it's all in good fun...though for some of us (like Sven pointed out) Tiki is more about the history and architecture and style than it is the parties and the drinking.....

On 2014-01-27 13:13, TikiTacky wrote:

On 2014-01-27 12:57, JOHN-O wrote:
I would encourage people to read this thread if they haven't yet. Unfortunately it spiraled out of control and had to be locked, but I think there's a lot of thoughtful discussion contained in it...

http://www.tikicentral.com/viewtopic.php?topic=31087&forum=1

Also I hate to say this, but have any of you read the "Book of Tiki" or "Tiki Modern" ?? (Sorry, it doesn't seem that way). If not, that should be the first prerequisite before starting a Wiki page on Tiki. :)

Thank you for linking to this! The thread is a perfect example of why something like the Tikipedia is needed. The information in that thread is very important, but spread over fifteen pages and ultimately became so unwieldy that it had to be locked. Do stilling it down to the key points and putting them in one spot will save myself and lots of other people (including poor Sven) a lot of heartache.

2009 was a very contentious year for Tiki Central & the "What is Tiki Conundrum"
things got very heated back then....

Yeah but we got some great content out of it like this...

http://www.tikicentral.com/viewtopic.php?topic=31087&forum=1&vpost=430455

That was a significant Tiki lightbulb moment for me. I remember printing it out, folding it, and sticking it inside my BOT.

On 2014-01-28 18:14, JOHN-O wrote:
Yeah but we got some great content out of it like this...

http://www.tikicentral.com/viewtopic.php?topic=31087&forum=1&vpost=430455

That was a significant Tiki lightbulb moment for me. I remember printing it out, folding it, and sticking it inside my BOT.

really good post by sven there. says a lot for sure