Was Donn Beach really behind the Zombie?

Ray Buhen, famous bartender from Tiki-Ti and former bartender from Don the Beachcomber, claims that Donn didn't invent many of his famous drinks including the Zombie: "He'd say anything," chuckled Ray. "He said he invented the Zombie, but he didn't. Or hardly any of his drinks." That work, Ray maintained, was done by Ray and his fellow Filipinos. (http://www.tiki-ti.com/pages/ray.html)

Is there any truth to this? I know lots of people, including Trader Vic, gave major props to Donn of his work. Has this really not been discussed before? I saw the quote in another post, but there was no discussion about it and my search turned up nothing (although I haven't been having much luck lately).

"You can't eat real Polynesian food. It's the most horrible junk I've ever tasted." —Trader Vic Bergeron

[ Edited by: TikiTacky 2014-06-20 17:30 ]

I figure there had to be a time where there weren't many people around making drinks (worthwhile ones), and there was Donn. Its not like Ray was there since the beginning, right?

Unfortunately, there really isn't a way to conclusively prove or disprove the claim. It was addressed and discussed briefly in "the DVD of Tiki", but ultimately boils down to one word against the other. Honestly, I think Ray's version sounds more likely than some of Gantt's (Donn Beach) explanations, but still it boils down to who you believe.

Even so, if true I don't know that I would call Gantt a conman, but rather a showman trying to create an image and persona that enhanced the atmosphere and experience of his patrons. Gantt creating these drinks makes for a better story than "I hired these guys and they developed some good drinks."

Ray wouldn't really have anything to gain by claiming he and other Filipino bartenders created the drinks. I would also tend to believe that someone making drinks all day is probably more likely to create new ones than somebody that is often tied up with all the other details related to operating a successful polynesian establishment.

Your thread title is inflammatory, maybe even trollish (although I know that's not your intent). Visionaries always leverage the talent and creativity of others. I doubt if Ray Buhen or any of "the boys" would have created these drinks on their own if it were not for Donn's sense of enterprise and opportunity. He was a business man, not a con man. :)

[ Edited by: JOHN-O 2014-06-20 16:41 ]

Hard to say, the idea of bartenders ripping off/not crediting each other for drinks goes back way before tiki drinks. Bartenders in the Detroit Athletic Club would frequently keep everything in unmarked bottles on the rail so no one could replicate their drinks.

On 2014-06-20 16:40, JOHN-O wrote:
Your thread title is inflammatory, maybe even trollish (although I know that's not your intent).

It was definitely not, so I modified the title. I like discussion, not argument. :)

Hmmm... interesting question...

On 2014-06-20 16:40, JOHN-O wrote:
I doubt if Ray Buhen or any of "the boys" would have created these drinks on their own if it were not for Donn's sense of enterprise and opportunity. He was a business man, not a con man

Sippin Safari pages 15 to 18 is relevant - it sets the scene that Don was a good guy & the '4 main boys' worked hard for him.

The '4 boys' probably experienced very little prospects in the early 1930s (being Filipino & living in different times n all). Towards the end of the 30s, they had a bit more bargaining power due the popularity of where they had worked but it was still likely to be pretty minimal.

Picture the scene:

Don has tons of drinks in the early 1930s. Don is schooling the bartenders how to make the drinks when very few other will take them in, it is quite likely that he says 'don't experiment, be exact with the measurements I give you', I have no doubt Don wanted quality & saw that limiting deviation from 'his' recipes was the way to do that. If this is true, bartenders probably didn't share their drinks with Don (if they made any).

Assuming bartenders are 'allowed' to experiment, if a bartender brings Don a drink he's been experimenting with, Don can try it & further experiments with the ingredients (e.g. changes one of the fruit juices, adds a secret spice mix, swaps the sugar syrup for the honey mix, switches the rums) & it might get put on the menu.

If it does get on the menu, the original bartender probably got an 'atta-boy' (a few dollars or free drinks for his friends). Don is the boss & 'finished the drink off' so it goes down as his.

The bartenders probably didn't have status in the 1930s/40s to say 'hey, that's my drink! Give me credit or I'll leave'.

In that situation who gets the credit?... Most likely, Don.

If is right is a different matter but I can believe it went down like that!

But it's also widely believed that for his most famous recipes Donn kept them secret by encoding the ingredients. This is one reason why Jeff Berry had such a hard time figuring many of them out.

That might be true, could be that they just assumed it was true since bartenders would keep formulas secret, and it could be actually true because market edge is market edge.

Whether Donn invented those drinks himself or not, he clearly knew how to market them. Personally, I think Donn likely invented many of them himself, or at least perfected them. But it's still worthy of discussion, and I'm always curious to hear other viewpoints. There are so many people here who are more knowledgable about these subjects that I'm always interested to see what will come up. I'm never surprised when someone says "Donn was my mother's cousin and we used to play mumblety-peg, and he told me he never drank alcohol because of his ulcer."

BS!

I asked Donn's best friend if he had seen Donn experimenting, mixing and he said yes. There would be lots of drinks tasted and tossed.

What is in the book is one man's word vs. another and neither here to answer any more.

But here is the proof: The mixes. Don's Spices, #4 #7, etc. No one knew what was in them! Not even Ray Buhen. He said "oh that's cinnamon syrup", but that was his answer and does not mean it was exact. Look at the Mai-Kai and what is #7? I have Mariano's recipes in his hand writing and he has 3 recipes for #4 alone!

Yes, Donn kept the drink recipes a secret, but the "boys" had them. But not the special syrups. This is detailed in my coming book, but the actual place they were made was a secret. The bases were sent to McCadden and there were mixed with syrup and repackaged and sent to the various DtB locations. When #7 arrived in Chicago, it has a DtB McCadden label.

If Ray and the boys were making up these recipes then these special ingredients would have not been secrets either and in some other recipe book or end up as guess-work by them.

This is why the Mai-Kai stood alone as they had THE SOURCE for the secret spices and ordered them directly. But even they lost the recipes when they could no longer order them and they had to come up with their own versions of the originals.

If Ray Buhen created the Zombie, why was there no #7 or #4 recipe in his little black book?

Announcing Crazy Al's Molokai Maiden!

[ Edited by: Swanky 2014-06-23 09:59 ]

AND did Madame Rue REALLY invent Love Potion Number Nine?

At OSU if you invent some great new thing on their time, it's OSU's great new thing now.

I need to start crankin out new threads.
TikiTacky is up to 5 just this past month alone, I'm slackin.

[ Edited by: tikiskip 2014-06-23 10:33 ]

There's so much more to discuss than just carvings and events! I posted two locations that weren't listed, found a collection of Don the Beachcomber music that hadn't been discussed before, and tried to figure out when TV started using the Menehunes.

On 2014-06-23 09:58, Swanky wrote:
BS!

I asked Donn's best friend if he had seen Donn experimenting, mixing and he said yes. There would be lots of drinks tasted and tossed.

Case in point. :)

I can't wait to read your book, Swanky. It sounds right up my bamboo-lined alley (that sounds like a euphemism. It isn't). Any ETA?

"You can't eat real Polynesian food. It's the most horrible junk I've ever tasted." —Trader Vic Bergeron

[ Edited by: TikiTacky 2014-06-23 11:48 ]

From what I can tell, most of Don's drinks are riffs off Caribbean cocktails. Would Filipinos who had immigrated to California know anything about them? I don't know the answer, but I have my doubts. Prohibition had ended only a year before Don the Beachcomber opened, and most bars in town were more likely serving gin, Canadian whiskey, and Scotch than anything with rum.

There is actually a map of prohibition era alcohol consumption...

California was mostly drinking wine, a small portion might have been home-made rum since there was a sugar cane industry in California at one point, and heavy seepage in from the boarder.

Wizzard GREAT post!!!

Ray's claim that the bartenders invented the drinks isn't really disproved by the syrups and flavoring mixes in that it would have pre-dated their existence, formulation and naming process. Any anomalies that may exist within the syrup or drink mix line may only be related to the development of the syrups themselves rather than the original development of the drink in question.

Rum as an alcohol was most common in Florida during prohibition, as it was smuggled in from the Carribean. This is likely the origin if the term "rum runner." However low profits eventually pushed them into smuggling other liquor a that were more profitable, such as whiskey.

On 2014-06-23 14:17, arriano wrote:
From what I can tell, most of Don's drinks are riffs off Caribbean cocktails. Would Filipinos who had immigrated to California know anything about them? I don't know the answer, but I have my doubts. Prohibition had ended only a year before Don the Beachcomber opened, and most bars in town were more likely serving gin, Canadian whiskey, and Scotch than anything with rum.

if i'm not mistaken, rum production in the Philippines dates back to the 1800's, fwiw...

Good discussion.

Aren't we diffentiating between simple "production of rum" versus "using rum in cocktails?"

On 2014-06-23 14:23, wizzard419 wrote:
There is actually a map of prohibition era alcohol consumption...
California was mostly drinking wine, a small portion might have been home-made rum since there was a sugar cane industry in California at one point, and heavy seepage in from the border.

I would like to apologize for my state's weak showing according to that map. I, along with my friends, are doing everything we can to make up for lost time.

The liver must be punished!

How much of Florida's area was developed/populated with large numbers during prohibition?

What is produced heavily by a country/region is a key influencer of what cocktails they used to come up with. For most of the existence of hard liquor, the idea of the cocktail itself was to help cover up strong/bad flavors and possibly dilute the potency of the spirit.

I don't entirely agree with you, I think you made some very broad generalizations, but I see your point and appreciate it.

With regard to Florida, I was joking. However Florida's population was generally congregating around ports and waterways and rail lines. With its myriad waterways, Florida offered bootleggers, privateers, pirates, and tourists alike relatively easy access from the ocean. Much more could be said, but the same is true of many coastal cities and harbors along the eastern seaboard.

The map reflects that, with high concentrations for seepage from other countries. Though, you forget one important thing when talking about bootlegging. It's a bitch to haul materials into backwater places, process it into alcohol, and then transport it back out. Since the areas were still mostly rural, going to get processed sugar, corn, etc. in quantities to make moonshine and then find an audience willing to buy it vs just getting the stuff flown in severely impacts the viability of the process. Moonshiners existed in Florida but they most likely were only able to produce for themselves/immediate surroundings.

This would be a good research topic. How much bootlegging, when was it done, how did they get their raw materials, how did they distribute their product, etc.

Bootlegging in Florida has not been mentioned in any of the places I have been, and I don't recall seeing it mentioned in any museums and exhibits or books. There were, however, a number of railroads along coastal areas for both transporting people and for transporting cypress lumber to ships. And there were some pretty cool steamers on major rivers offering fairly regular service. I'm not sure how many records we have of what exactly they transported. I'd guess there probably was at least some contraband moving around here because there were some major resorts around the state 100 years ago, and they operated through the prohibition era. And major millionaires vacationed in northern Florida and southern Georgia. I would guess there was some market for bootleg liquor here, I'm just not sure how big it was. My city has been a major logistics hub since before the turn of the century, and several of the schooner docks still exist along the waterfront.

Interesting stuff here! I'm going to remember to start asking people about this when I visit historical sites or run into local historians. I can't wait to see their reactions.

I have it on good authority, although I suppose it is anecdotal oral history, that, during prohibition, members of the Columbia Yacht Club here in Chicago would sail down to Cuba/the Caribbean in the winter and bring back decent quantities of rum to share with other members of the club over the summers. There has been some documentation of this in the club newsletter over the years -- I'd be curious to see when the first account appears in the newsletter. From the accounts I have read, the popular drink at the club made with the rum at the time was the Cuba Libre.

I like it! Very cool!

1: "Hey, guys, let's go down to the Caribbean and bring back some rum. I know this cool little bar in Havana..."
2: "Nah, that's a way long trip down there."
1: "But it's worth it - kinda like camping with all your buddies, but on a boat!"
2: "Yeah, but no trees to hide behind when you need to take a leak."
1: "Shut up. RUM!"
2: "Ok! Deal!"

I just reread the last page or so... that went on to a different topic quickly!

To revisit earlier comments, it's widely accepted that Don had many secret spices mixes, Dons Mix being one of them (more info on its discovery & use in the Zombie in Sippin Safari page 115 onwards). It's also evident that Don tinkered with his cocktails because of the variation that have been uncovered (eg the Beachcombers Gold variations through the ages, Beachbum Berry Remixed page 32 onwards).

To re-approach the question 'did Don really create the Zombie?' another way; it is good to put it in context against other drinks.

I think you can see the increasing numbers of ingredients & levels of spice in Dons drinks across the years. They start relatively simple with 1934 Sumatra Kula /1937 Donga Punch / 1941 Navy Grog becoming the more complicated & spicy 1941 Test Pilot /1945 Three Dots / 1950s Colonel Beach's Plantation Punch).

There are other drinks that don't fit the pattern because they are different:

The 1937 Nui Nui & contains spicy ingredients but they are softer & the drink does not contain dark rums to pep up its complexity. The 1940s Rum Barrel contains many ingredients (including dark rums) but the spices are in smaller amounts against quite a lot of fruit juice so it is less 'spicy'. The 1940s 151 Swizzle is certainly strong but contains very little spice beyond Angostura & Pernod, it is more about the LH151.

So judged against the few drinks mentioned above, the cacophony of ingredients in a 1934 Zombie is a little different to most of Dons other earlier cocktails - there are lots of ingredients & it is spice laden! For those reasons, the 1934 Zombie sticks out as an odd ball to me.

Can anyone provide any similarly spice laden cocktails Don made in the early 30s to keep the Zombie company? Is it possible he created just one drink a head of its time complexity & spice wise... then didn't make anymore for 5 years or thereabouts?

Remember the context of how he claims he created it: on the spot, for a hung over friend named Jack (talk about the hair of the dog that bit you!). I can imagine him just pouring in a thing here or there. I also imagine him not remembering everything that went into it if it was so complicated, but he said he made three of them for poor Jack.

On 2014-06-24 06:29, AceExplorer wrote:
This would be a good research topic. How much bootlegging, when was it done, how did they get their raw materials, how did they distribute their product, etc.

Bootlegging in Florida has not been mentioned in any of the places I have been, and I don't recall seeing it mentioned in any museums and exhibits or books. There were, however, a number of railroads along coastal areas for both transporting people and for transporting cypress lumber to ships. And there were some pretty cool steamers on major rivers offering fairly regular service. I'm not sure how many records we have of what exactly they transported. I'd guess there probably was at least some contraband moving around here because there were some major resorts around the state 100 years ago, and they operated through the prohibition era. And major millionaires vacationed in northern Florida and southern Georgia. I would guess there was some market for bootleg liquor here, I'm just not sure how big it was. My city has been a major logistics hub since before the turn of the century, and several of the schooner docks still exist along the waterfront.

Interesting stuff here! I'm going to remember to start asking people about this when I visit historical sites or run into local historians. I can't wait to see their reactions.

It probably was pretty straight forward in terms of what people made when bootlegging. Since they would likely only have what was growing locally you ended up with trade in the local stock. If you were near a boarder/ocean you also had the benefit of a less powerful police force on the water so that was key. Even boarder patrol wasn't that strong back then.

I am kind of surprised there wasn't a strong brandy presence in California, one of the keys with much of the alcohol production was that if it were for sale you would distill so you could transport more alcohol. Sure it usually used fake-age methods and tasted like horse piss, but it got you drunk.

If I recall, there were some wineries in CA that were allowed to operate during the era as well, to produce for religious service.

On 2014-06-24 15:32, AdOrAdam wrote:
I just reread the last page or so... that went on to a different topic quickly!

To revisit earlier comments, it's widely accepted that Don had many secret spices mixes, Dons Mix being one of them (more info on its discovery & use in the Zombie in Sippin Safari page 115 onwards). It's also evident that Don tinkered with his cocktails because of the variation that have been uncovered (eg the Beachcombers Gold variations through the ages, Beachbum Berry Remixed page 32 onwards).

To re-approach the question 'did Don really create the Zombie?' another way; it is good to put it in context against other drinks.

I think you can see the increasing numbers of ingredients & levels of spice in Dons drinks across the years. They start relatively simple with 1934 Sumatra Kula /1937 Donga Punch / 1941 Navy Grog becoming the more complicated & spicy 1941 Test Pilot /1945 Three Dots / 1950s Colonel Beach's Plantation Punch).

There are other drinks that don't fit the pattern because they are different:

The 1937 Nui Nui & contains spicy ingredients but they are softer & the drink does not contain dark rums to pep up its complexity. The 1940s Rum Barrel contains many ingredients (including dark rums) but the spices are in smaller amounts against quite a lot of fruit juice so it is less 'spicy'. The 1940s 151 Swizzle is certainly strong but contains very little spice beyond Angostura & Pernod, it is more about the LH151.

So judged against the few drinks mentioned above, the cacophony of ingredients in a 1934 Zombie is a little different to most of Dons other earlier cocktails - there are lots of ingredients & it is spice laden! For those reasons, the 1934 Zombie sticks out as an odd ball to me.

Can anyone provide any similarly spice laden cocktails Don made in the early 30s to keep the Zombie company? Is it possible he created just one drink a head of its time complexity & spice wise... then didn't make anymore for 5 years or thereabouts?

Nui Nui is as spicy as the Zombie in terms of "spicy" ingredients included, it just has less rum complexity. Falernum was in other drinks. I don't see anything that really makes the Zombie unique. 151 Swizzle means 151 was around and used. THe spices, complexity, those are in other drinks. You could guess at any drink this way and decide maybe it does not belong.

Zombie calls for a secret ingredient and is there in 1934. The various little black books call for this ingredient but do not contain a recipe for it.