Lemon Hart question

On 2014-10-08 00:33, lunavideogames wrote:

On 2014-05-27 00:43, Hurricane Hayward wrote:
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but this just went up on the Lemon Hart 151 Facebook page about 5 hours ago:

"I"m sorry too report that Mosaiq, the Lemon Hart brand owner, has decided not to bottle any more Lemon Hart 151 until at least the middle of 2015. I wish I had the opportunity to buy more and offered to buy 5,000 cases but was turned down. Planning is everything. I'm working on obtaining another overproof rum that will work in many of the cocktails you love."

https://www.facebook.com/LH151

Sadly, I have heard from credible sources that LH 151 is basically no more. From what I gather Mosaiq is not making any money on the brand in Canada. There profits are getting eaten up on importing to the us. They are looking to sell the brand so that someone will still produce it. Basically, we will be looking at a new rendition of LH 151 if we ever see it again. I hope this information is not correct, but it has always struck me as odd that a company would just stop production on a popular rum for a couple years. We may be at the end of the line for tikis most famous rum.

That's something new? We have known it was not going to be available until July of 2015 since day one. So it may be a little longer? Mosaiq was no longer carrying it in the US market and the new distributor stopped shipments to clear the old stock off the shelves to re-lable and send out new orders. Has something changed since that initial news way back when?

No "official" news from them, but this is what I am hearing. I hope it is not true but the story seems to make sense to me.

Ed Hamilton is in the process of lining up his own 151-proof and regular-proof Guyanese rums. So while they probably won't be here for a year or more, there'll be something eventually. But I'm not holding my breath for more Lemon Hart.

Thanks for alerting us to this, David. I had not been to the Ministry of Rum site for a while, so I just hopped over for more info.

Ed's Jamaican and St. Lucian rums have raised the bar so high, I am betting he could indeed come up with a better over-proof Demerara than Lemon Hart 151 - especially the last red label batch.

Here's hoping the price is in line with his Jamaican, which I have bought for $23 a bottle. Although now I am seeing some places selling it for $30.

Cheers!

Has anyone heard anything about this? It won't be a demerara but curious what the flavor will be like.

I'm looking forward to a possible alternative from Ed. But I have been increasing my stockpile in case LH 151 becomes impossible to find. I hope my 17 bottles hold me over in zombies till I'm dead. I will have to be somewhat selfish with it though.

I can't see Mosaiq not being able to add 'production cost + import fees + taxes etc' to come up with a price for LH151 produced anywhere & imported anywhere in the world!

It pays to be a member of different forums, here's Ed Hamilton's recent post on Ministry of Rum about his forthcoming demerara rums.

Id agree that Pussers Overproof (old purple label or new green label) wouldn't be like LH151 (regular Pussers isn't like LH80) but it'd worth a try maybe alongside other rums - I haven't tried many rum combos to imitate LH151 yet but intend to try Pussers Blue Label along side something dark (like Goslings 151 or Plantation Overproof).

The other possibility is to make your 80 proof Demerara rum a 151. If you take 151 and add water to get 80, you can also take PGA and add it to Eldorado 80 proof to get a 151.

On 2014-10-13 07:52, Swanky wrote:
The other possibility is to make your 80 proof Demerara rum a 151. If you take 151 and add water to get 80, you can also take PGA and add it to Eldorado 80 proof to get a 151.

In what proportion?

On 2014-10-13 09:27, Loki-Tiki wrote:

On 2014-10-13 07:52, Swanky wrote:
The other possibility is to make your 80 proof Demerara rum a 151. If you take 151 and add water to get 80, you can also take PGA and add it to Eldorado 80 proof to get a 151.

In what proportion?

I have the idea, some one else has to do the math!

I used to go the other way and turn a bottle of 151 into nearly 2 bottles of 80 proof by adding distilled water. However, side by side with actual 80 proof rum the flavor was, duh, watered down. I would suspect the same would happen going the other way.

If the sad day comes and all the LH151 is gone, I will simply use El Dorado 12 or 15 year instead. The flavor is right if the ABV isn't.

An ounce of LH151 (amount in a classic Zombie Punch) is 75% alcohol, or 3/4 ounce.
An ounce of ElDo is a little less than half alcohol. 40%
An ounce of Everclear is 95% alcohol.

By my guestimate, to get the proper kick using ElDo, you'd add about 1/3 ounce of Everclear. This adds no flavor, just octane. This way you get the full flavor of the rum, and the octane of a 151, as opposed to watering down the rum with PGA to make it 151.

Amateur wine makers use Pearson's Square to determine how much booze to add to fortify wines. I think it applies here but I could be wrong. Anyway, it suggests that you would need about 1.8oz 190-proof Everclear to raise 1oz of 80-proof spirits to 151 proof.

  
A   B  
\ /  
X  
/ \  
C   D  
where:  
X = final ABV  
A = ABV of spirit to fortify  
C = ABV of the fortifying spirit  
B = (C - X)  
D = (X - A)  
Let V = the amount of the original spirit to be fortified.  
Solving for the amount of fortifying spirit (N):  
N = V * (1/((B/D))  
N = V * (1 / ((C - X) / (X - A)))  

Plugging in some real numbers,

X = 75.5 (151 proof, the number we're trying to achieve)
A = 40.0 (80 proof, what we're starting with)
C = 95.0 (190 proof everclear)
B = (95.0 - 75.5) = 19.5
D = (75.5 - 40.0) = 35.5
V = 1 (ounce)

N = 1 * (1 / ((95.0 - 75.5) / (75.5 - 40.0)))
N = 1 * (1 / (19.5 / 35.5))
N = 1 * (1 / .55) (rounding here, I'm lazy)
N = 1.8

So, you could round that down to 1.75oz to make the measurement easy, or up to 2oz if you're feeling frisky.

I didn't analyze the Pearson's Square formula, but instead worked it out with a little algebra (see, it does come in handy, sometimes), and I got the same answer, 1.82 oz. So, the formula works.

But the concern I'd have is whether the "fortified" LH80 would have become too dilute and lost a lot of taste. That 1.8 ounces of tasteless PGA is a lot to add to one ounce of LH80! Going the other direction, it only takes 0.89 oz. of water to bring one ounce of 151° down to 80°.

I don't understand how this could work. To me the difference in flavor from LH80 and 151 is to vast. The 151 has such intense flavor compared to the 80, just increasing the alcohol won't produce the most important element, the flavor. Or am I missing something in this discussion?

aloha, tikicoma

Remember, cut the limes first then the onions!

[ Edited by: tikicoma 2014-10-18 19:24 ]

LH 151 is difficult, but not impossible to find. If you are lucky enough to actually have some LH 80, I wouldn't experiment with it at all. LH 80 cannot be found anywhere.

Everclear is an interesting option. Everclear 151 wouldn't get you there, since there's no way you'd be able to lift the total ABV to 151 without completely wiping out the flavor. But if you're lucky enough to get your hands on the 190-proof stuff you'd be in business. You'd need a 1.8:1 ratio of 95% strength Everclear to rum (use El Dorado if you don't have any Lemon Hart). I'm afraid it probably would diffuse the flavor at least a little (blended whiskies are made with clear grain alcohol and think about how they taste vs. single malts). Still worth a try though, if it means it might stretch your supply of LH151. I might have to make a drive to Wisconsin... for science!

Once again, I'm forced to make an unfortunate announcement: The Mai-Kai is running low on its Lemon Hart supply, and after much deliberation has decided on replacements:

El Dorado Original Dark will replace the 80-proof Lemon Hart rum that was used in drinks such as the Special Planters Punch and Yeoman’s Grog. I've already taste-tested a few of the cocktails and was pleased with this choice.

The more difficult choice, of course, was what to use as a substitute for LH 151 in the Zombie, 151 Swizzle, et al. It's not a big surprise that they went with Goslings Black Seal 151 for it's rich and dark flavor, and 151 punch.

I've posted a more in-depth report on my Mai-Kai Cocktail Guide thread:
http://www.tikicentral.com/viewtopic.php?topic=47293&forum=10&start=last&48
Feel free to post comments over there if anyone has a chance to sample the drinks with the new rums.

Unfortunate news for sure, but not unexpected. I find it hard to believe ED Dark is a good 1:1 replacement for LH80 unless it is only a small amount of the total rum bill in the Mai-Kai cocktails. ED Dark can easily overpower a drink in amounts over 1/2 oz. I think ED 5 would be a better 1:1 replacement. Better still, I think, would be using something like a 2:1 blend of ED5 a d ED Dark in place of the Lemon Hart 80.

Not much to say a out the Goings 151 for LH151 sub other than saying Goslings 151 was my goto high octane dark rum before LH151 came back and I hate the thought of taking a step backward either at Mai-Kai of in the home bar.

I agree the ED5 would be a better choice. And I'm not sure I understand using the Goslings. Wouldn't flavor profile be of more importance than octane for these cocktails? I would think using a good ED, like 12, would make a similar-enough tasting cocktail, no? Seems to me using Goslings you would definitely notice the change.

But maybe after a good shot of 151 you wouldn't care as much...

Sunny&Rummy, I will obviously have to examine all the recipes, but I believe that most that contain LH80 are no more than 1 ounce, with the exception of Sidewinder's Fang. I know they met with an El Dorado rep and tasted the whole portfolio. So far, I've made the S.O.S. and Oh So Deadly and don't notice the difference. I'll post more comments about that over on the other thread.

Re Goslings, I know they definitely didn't want to go down in octane, which probably drove their decision. But if something better comes along that's widely available and not way overpriced, I'm sure they'd be open to try it. At this point, they had to make a move and it was probably the safest bet. I believe they used Goslings before Lemon Hart came back. So if you haven't been there in 4 years, you may not even notice.

And that's just the thing. . . When they started using LH151 in the Jet Pilot, Zombie and 151 Swizzle it was an improvement that was immediately apparent. We had tasted those drinks a few times pre-2012 and they were quite good, but after reintroducing LH151 in 2012 those same drinks were all stellar.

I trust they will do the best they can with the products available, and their drinks will still be better than 99% of the drinks you'll find anywhere.

On 2014-10-20 09:41, happy buddha wrote:
Seems to me using Goslings you would definitely notice the change.

My thought on Goslings 151 is that it's a dark-profiled 151, vs El Dorado, Cruzan, Bacardi, or Wray & Nephew. I am also saying this strictly on theory and based on shared opinion. I actually can't wait to give it a try myself after I buy a bottle.

Anyone in the Denver area, I can tell you a store that has two bottles of LH151 in stock, at $29.99. PM me.
Edit: OK, it's Applejack Wine & Spirits. Call to confirm they still have 'em, and they'll pull them from the shelves and set aside for you.

"The rum's the thing..."

[ Edited by: Limbo Lizard 2014-10-25 20:28 ]

Likewise I'd like to point out that Vendome Wine & Spirits in Toluca Lake, CA still has a surprising stock of LH151. They had 8 bottles, so I snagged 3, leaving 5 for you savages out there. :wink: $33.99

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http://www.instagram.com/keithkocka

[ Edited by: kkocka 2014-10-25 13:55 ]

This weekend I had the equivalent of finding the $100 bill in an old jacket pocket. I keep my inventory LH 151 stored in the protective boxes they came in - except of course for the bottle currently in use. Anyway I have most of my go-to booze in a cabinet with less used stuff in some lower cabinets etc.... So this weekend as I did a little fall cleaning, I was pleasantly surprised when I came across a unopened old label bottle of LH151. It was stuck behind some pilsner glasses way in the back of a lower cabinet. It must have been stashed years ago as my last stand for LH 151 the first time they stopped making it. Its like Christmas in October.....

For those of you in the Vancouver BC area, The liquor store at 5 road and Cambie Plaza in Richmond has Lemonhart 151 Dem in stock.

Ordered some Denizen online this week and was surprised to see that Lemon Hart is still available from drinkupny.com
Just had to order a few more LH151 to round out the shipment and reach my hoarding limit. :wink:

Get em while they're hot.

So whats the official word on LH151 now? Is it or is it not going to be out of production? Temporarily or permanently? I'm new to all of this tiki craze stuff, but have stocked up about 8 bottles of LH151, because that deep smokey flavor is just insane.

Lemon Hart's previous U.S. importer, Ed Hamilton (of The Ministry of Rum fame), has just announced a new Demerara rum (both 86 and 151 proof), which has raised some hopes for a Lemon Hart replacement. Perhaps this is what he had in mind back in May when he said he was "working on obtaining another overproof rum that will work in many of the cocktails you love."

http://www.caribbean-spirits.com/labeldetails.php?id=68
http://www.caribbean-spirits.com/labeldetails.php?id=67

As for the status of Lemon Hart, I'm fairly certain the pipeline has stopped flowing, though it's possible you'll find bottles squirreled away in various stores and small distribution channels for quite a while. If you see it, by all means grab it.

For high-volume bars who must deal with their mainstream distributors, the end is near unfortunately. The Mai-Kai has officially removed it from all the drinks on their menu, though it appears they've stashed some away for special purposes. See my latest update here:
http://www.tikicentral.com/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic=47293&forum=10&start=45

Latitude 29 opened earlier today with 15 cases, but who knows how long that will last. I would expect they're good into early next year ...

http://latitude29nola.com

Over at Smuggler's Cove, the last I heard from Martin Cate is that he's about to start "tasting, blending and comparing" to come up with a replacement. He has "five decades worth of vintage Lemon Hart 151" at his disposal, so I'm hopeful he'll be able to offer the best advice on how to handle a future without Lemon Hart.

Of course, LH 151 could come back on the market next year and make this whole discussion moot, but I would not count on that happening. On their Facebook page, they seem more concerned with promoting their spiced rum:
https://www.facebook.com/LemonHartRum

*On 2014-11-13 01:17, Hurricane Hayward wrote:*On their Facebook page, they seem more concerned with promoting their spiced rum

Because the world needs another spiced rum. :|

I hope they call the spiced "Lieutenant Commander Lemonhart!"

Lots of discussion on the Ministry of Rum's Facebook group about the Hamilton 151 rum. I don't think you need to be logged into Facebook to read: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10152475429388873&set=gm.10152431745482724&type=1&theater

Among the more interesting:

From Ed on Nov. 3:
"It will be another month before it's ready to ship in bottles, but shipping the rum to the bottler is the first of many small steps."

On Nov. 4, he added that there will be distribution in all of the colored states on this map:
http://caribbean-spirits.com

Then he added: "With the intent of being vague, I'll say this Demerara Overproof will have the signature Demerara notes that make Demerara rums unique. Smoky, dark fruit, tobacco, spice."

Looks like it will hit retail stores in early 2015.

Elated to see Florida haz a color on that map!

On 2014-11-14 00:08, Hurricane Hayward wrote:
Then he added: "With the intent of being vague, I'll say this Demerara Overproof will have the signature Demerara notes that make Demerara rums unique. Smoky, dark fruit, tobacco, spice."

Now THAT sounds fantastic!

Looks like hoarding of Lemon Hart went to extreme measures in this 1960's ad poster.

1st for me
LH 151 in Vegas...

Stopped in a lil hole in the wall liquor store
Saw the label from 20 feet away
Lone bottle now safe n sound

So they are still out there!!!

This just appeared on the Lemon Hart page on Facebook. Something is conspicuously absent.

Note though that they went back to the original label colors.

I'd love to get my hands on some of that classic 80-proof. Impossible to find in the States.

Found another store that sells it here in Vegas

Apparently there's no crisis in the UK. Both the 151 and 80 proof are available here:
https://www.thewhiskyexchange.com/P-16254.aspx

I heard the 80 is available duty free in Canada, I believe in Vancouver. I plan to check the airport when I'm there in May, or perhaps someone else can chime in before then.

SO....I know there is no real replacement for LH151 (I have 6 bottles of old labels stashed away for posterity), but if one was less concerned about the 151 undertow, can it be argued that the flavor profile could be approximated with El Dorado 12 Year Old?

Yes. At least for me. I prefer a good Demerara over a mediocre 151 sub any day.

And if I want more booze? I'll mix another :)

On 2014-12-19 13:58, Hearn wrote:
SO....I know there is no real replacement for LH151 (I have 6 bottles of old labels stashed away for posterity), but if one was less concerned about the 151 undertow, can it be argued that the flavor profile could be approximated with El Dorado 12 Year Old?

Your best bet in the El Dorado line for approximating the Lemon Hart flavor is their excellent 8-year--it is the only aged rum they make that doesn't have sugar added to it. The flavor profile is very similar to the Lemon Hart 80-proof. The 12 and 15 are both too sweet to approximate Lemon Hart in a cocktail.

FYI, there's another thread going with lots of news from Ed Hamilton on his new Demerara rums. Can't wait to try them ... http://www.tikicentral.com/viewtopic.php?topic=48581&forum=10

On 2014-12-19 13:58, Hearn wrote:
SO....I know there is no real replacement for LH151 (I have 6 bottles of old labels stashed away for posterity), but if one was less concerned about the 151 undertow, can it be argued that the flavor profile could be approximated with El Dorado 12 Year Old?

That is what I do. I have LH80 old stuff and ElDo 12 YO and I use them in my Zombie Punch and it's nice. Makes a good drink that is just less potent.

Alcohol is tasteless. Vodka, PGA. No flavor. 151 may have a different impact than 80, but the notion that it has a different flavor I think is incorrect. In truth, Rum starts its life as 151 or more and gets cut to 80 proof. And maybe that means it gets diluted in flavor. But I have taken a 151 LH and diluted it down to 80 proof and it lost a lot of flavor. Was nowhere close to my 80 proof stuff.

Certainly it is not the same drink, but it is a perfectly acceptable sub. I especially prefer it in the Zombie because I am just not always eager to have a drink with the equivalent of 5 ounces of booze in it, but I would like a Zombie.

Hamilton Demerara rums, both the Overproof 151 and 86 proof, are now being poured at The Mai-Kai. Don't be surprised if Latitude 29, Smuggler's Cove and others follow suit ...

Yes, Latitude 29, Three Dots and a Dash, Lostlake and Smuggler's Cove are all using Hamilton Demerara Overproof in their drinks that call for 151 Demerara rum. And all of these bars are using Hamilton Demerara 86 proof in some of their drinks.

Thanks for the support guys. I really appreciate it.