Just curious if any of you "new tiki creators" were taught RESPECT when you were raised!!!???

You mean FEAR?

The spatula drawer brings back memories.
:wink:

Re-what?

I'm hearing Aretha!

On 2004-03-19 22:02, RevBambooBen wrote:
Just curious if any of you "new tiki creators" were taught RESPECT when you were raised!!!???

Ahh BB to quote my favorite band of all time, Ministry.
"Adults create the world children live in. Juvenile delinquency is always rooted in adult deliquency, and in this process parents play the key role. When children grow up among adults who refuse to recognize anything that is fine and good or worthy of respect..." :)

Respect? Doesn't that go along with that Other thing called "Consideration".
Consideration? Respect? Honor? Integrity? What are those things anyway?

Example. A year or so ago a client asked me if I could build a bar with a little more Shag influence. I e-maild Shag and asked for his permission. He said yes. Thank you for asking for permission.

first off I need to qoute ministry too, "bop m bop m bopbop" okay so it an old quote, but they said it not me...
Ben Just out of curiousity where you using shag images in this bar or simply a similar style? after all shag is a bit derivitive his own self. his style is a retro style that echo those who came before him, Most observers should not have a hard time spotting his influences which are at times rather blatent both in subject and style of illistration. mind you I don't look on this as a bad thing at all it is a tradition that has a history as long as art itself. and I don't think it was a bad thing to contact him about a project that you felt my infringe on his... well infringe on... ah, I don't have enough background to finish that sentence but I think ya get the point. turns out this is a legit topic, and I thought it was about being nice. influence is propper in art if you ask me and not the same as wholesale lifting of an image, like the underpants w/ BOT tikis on them. by the way, where did those BOT underpants tikis come from in the first place? were they purchased for BOT? collected and then cleared? were they origanal works produced for BOT? expired copyrights? As anyone who has read my recent postings knows, this kind of stuff is a hot topic for me and I have to stop myself from going off on a rant... opps, guess its close to that time about noe huh?

NOTICE: Bwana Tiki is now a registered trade mark (tm)and copyrighted term,(c) 2004 Bwana Tiki Industries, and is also registered with several angry Gods, violators of this brand will be unceremoniously tossed into a valcano!

I think you could also talk about "ethics". At what point do influences turn into copying a particular style?
If it's simply being influenced by (and Bwana is right - we were all influenced somewhere) another artist, tweaking it and making your own that, that's not copying - even if you can trace the influences.
Copying is another story altogether, that I think every artist goes through at one stage (be it elementary school or when you first start out creating art). It's what the artist does with those works that causes issues.
I have carved several pieces that are in the "shag" style. I love his work and admire him as an artist. These pieces adorn my tiki kitchen and are for PERSONAL USE ONLY. If I were to try and sell them - I would send Shag's people an email with pictures and get their permission.
That is respect for an artist's integrity and the ethics involved with making money and using other peoples creations to acheive those ends.
Was this off topic?

"Hey, at least I'm housebroken."

[ Edited by: Polynesiac on 2004-03-20 16:36 ]

I think when a New artist starts to carve, lets say, a Tiki, they will get inspiration from a particular pieceof work or a particular artist. Usually their first few carvings may be similar or even copied perfectly.As the atrist grows and gains that inner confidence, they begin to experiment and their own style emerges. That artist may be Super gung ho and produce Multiple carvings while trying to satisfy that Inner Quest to make magic happen.
Here is where the honor and integrity come in. In deciding what to do with the carvings, if Profit is the Motivator then that can over-rule the Honesty. If Producing art is the motivator then they will most likley want to keep their works or share with Family.
Now the Other side of the coin is the person who attempts to Copy another artists work purely for Profit. they will not experiment and try to develop their Own style. they will strive to perfect the artwork of the (Well-Known) artist they are copying. they are not interested in producing anything for pleasure or for the sake of Creating a work of art. This is not cut and dry and there are different levels of Art Theft. we see it all the time. If someon uses another artists name or style in Creating, Promoting or selling someting else, It Is Theft.
Maybe they were not taught properly as children or maybe there are other reasons.
Maybe the dishonest artists think it is no big deal because "Everybody does it" is their rule. We are stuck with it and we all need to watch out for it and Voice our concerns when we see it happening to Any artist.
Thats my few cents worth for now.
BenZart

[ Edited by: Tahiti Jim on 2004-03-23 10:34 ]

On 2004-03-20 18:04, Tahiti Jim wrote:
This thread is one of the reaons that I am choosing not to post on these boards anymore. I can't help but take this personally as another board member has given me hard time about this particular situation recently. I was not trying to take advantage of anyone on these boards. No one knows me personally, so no one has the right to judge me. So you should not jump to conclusions that I was out to do anyone or anything wrong. I did not mean to step on anyone's toes.

I'm off to find greener tiki pastures, and may the people on these boards treat newcomers a little nicer and with more RESPECT the next time around.

Tahiti Jim
[/quote

Dude! Not toward you at all. Stick around!!!

I've been doing this for the past 15 years and it just occured to me that times are changing. I'll throw out some more examples when I got a little more time next week. This goes way back to the 40's.

On 2004-03-20 18:04, Tahiti Jim wrote:
I'm off to find greener tiki pastures, and may the people on these boards treat newcomers a little nicer and with more RESPECT the next time around.

Tahiti Jim

There are none greener than TC, you are surrounded by green..... and white and grey.....
Like Ben says stick around

I believe a new person first has to have a little respect and common sense, then they will gain respect from others. Thats just my opinion and is not aimed towards anyone.

[ Edited by: keigs20 on 2004-03-20 22:56 ]

My story will come out in the next book. Sorry to "upset" way too many of you. Come to Oasis. I'll have a "complaint booth!"

Tahiti Jim, This wasn't pointed at you in any way BUT to explain that it looks like you are a young artist who cares about His art and Not a profit thing. This subject has attracted a lot of Strong feelings before you came around, you'll find it quite often in the history.
I agree with the others, you'll be happy here. If theres nothing to hide, theres nothing to fear.

[ Edited by: Benzart on 2004-03-21 07:48 ]

Hey Ben, wheres the Oasis?

Benzart...Tiki Oasis IV is in sunny ...Palm Springs
http://www.calientetropics.com/

[ Edited by: DawnTiki on 2004-03-20 23:44 ]

Thanks, I was afraid of that. Darn, I wanted to go too!

I thought it was going to be locked? I got a pm from the cheif saying that the new U-Moderate system was working well with this topic. I guess too many feathers are ruffeled. Anyway,

second example; when Sven came out with the BOT I asked him if I could use some of the images to recreate in "my style" . He said thank you for asking and yes.

Again. I'm NOT saying this to just ONE PERSON so DON'T TAKE IT PERSONALLY. Unless you have something to hide like BenzArt said. Well, I guess I am saying it to one person. But, not recently (Tahiti Jim- not you!!! Stay around!!!)

To make a long story short before this topic gets locked, "I was acused of stealing." I was acused of stealing (by another person on this board) designs from the BOT, SHAG styles and OA stuff. What that acuser forgot was that my Grandfather Eli Hedley pretty much wrote the book or, was THE major player in this whole poly pop gig, Pre OA. I'm sitting on a huge portfolio of his that has images, articles, sketches, etc. of stuff that was done in the 40's the 70's. "Don't tell me that I stole ideas and images!" At least I have the "respect" to ask permission.

Go ahead and lock it, edit it, what ever. I just needed to get this off my chest. Mahalo!

Might as well add some more.
I have tried to copy styles, or carvings from the Ancient Masters, does this mean I am stealing their work? I Know that the Maoris are VERY protective of their family Tattoos and are Horrified when people Copy them. It is like Their family history and you "Better not mess with it". With my Maori pieces I never try to copy Any known or Photographed Facial tattoo, but I do use them for study and Ideas. Are we All guilty somewhere down the tiki line of Plagerism(sp?) I doubt it but I believe so. I know I have copies of ancient statues??
Now you can lock it.

[ Edited by: Benzart on 2004-03-21 09:53 ]

AMEN! Brother Ben!

Heh, you can't take a picture of a Maori now without paying them. And they are serious about it!

*On 2004-03-21 08:23, RevBambooBen wrote:*I thought it was going to be locked? I got a pm from the cheif saying that the new U-Moderate system was working well with this topic.

It has generated the most moderation requests so far. Whether or not it is enough to justify locking the topic I'm not so sure. The system is new and until I get a better handle on how many votes are average, I'm going to try not to be heavy-handed with the U-Moterate requests.

when Sven came out with the BOT I asked him if I could use some of the images to recreate in "my style" . He said thank you for asking and yes.

That seems odd to me because I thought that with the exception of the front cover that all the tiki designs in that book were designed by other people. So why contact Sven about it? Did you try to track down the original designers?

~Hanford

I, don't care who you are, who your father is, who your grandfather was, how many posts you have, what your hip "Tiki Handle" is, what book you've COMPILED, or what you've done. It' ALL being borrowed when it comes to TIKI, so I don't know exactly what people are griping about. I don't see anything tuly original, or unique on this site.(Not to say that I don't enjoy and appreciate some of what I see.) I'll be the first to admit that I use Shag's designs in paintings that I SELL. I didn't ask. I have no problem with that. Of course I respect him to a certain extent, and I love his work, obviously. I do quality work, for resonable prices. I don't sign the paintings, I don't try to promote my own name in selling my paintings. I give a quality product for people who appreciate it, and don't have thousands of dollars to drop on a board with some paint on it. I don't care about any "scene", or any "community". Of course I care about being compensated for my time. I do good work. Not original, or unique in any way, and I never claim it to be. It's just good, quality work. I've got no problem with that, nor do the people that buy my paintings. If Mr. Agle has objections, and his lawyers would request that I cease, I will happily oblige. God forbid, that I take any food off his family's table. I even use your own "unique designs" on this board, as reference from time to time, when carving or painting, or even just for design. It's ALL derivative. That's all I have to say.

Malaho, or mahalo, or whatever.

Lars

P.S. Maori moko are a signature. Different concept.

P.S.S. I also don't care how long you've been "into" it. Boring.

[ Edited by: Lars on 2004-03-21 16:02 ]

It must suck to have no imagination. Like a copy machine... Boring!!!!

You should know, KeigsCo. Everything I've seen you do looks like a Witco knock-off, so I don't know what you're so high and mighty about. Nice work though, some of it.

[ Edited by: Lars on 2004-03-21 16:46 ]

They are Witco inspired, some knock offs, most my own design. With plenty of new designs to come. Glad you like. Anyway enough of this.

[ Edited by: keigs20 on 2004-03-21 16:54 ]

On 2004-03-21 15:52, Lars wrote:
Of course I care about being compensated for my time. I do good work. Not original, or unique in any way, and I never claim it to be. It's just good, quality work. I've got no problem with that, nor do the people that buy my paintings.

Wow! You sound like the Thomas Kinkade of Tiki.
Since you're so proud of your "good, quality work" Lars, why don't you include a link so everyone can admire it?
Until then, perhaps you shouldn't be so quick to rip other peoples work, especially since you've only been here for a few hours.
:tiki:

I believe this would be lars....

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3709696529

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=20135&item=3710619865

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=20158&item=3705410697

[i]On 2004-03-21 08:23, RevBambooBen wrote:
I'm sitting on a huge portfolio of his that has images, articles, sketches, etc. of stuff that was done in the 40's the 70's.

That's something I wouldn't mind spending a few hours sifting through. :)

-Z