TIKI GARDENS LP!!!

The Vintage Tiki Gardens LP (now on CD) is finally up for sale- after some delay I now have everything ready to go :)

Its a dutch auction of ten copies right now-

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2138972536

Here is a sample MP3 from the record:

http://www.tikimug.com/tikigardens.mp3

The record is awesome guys- a must-hear.

Thanks for making this available- I've been wanting to hear it for a long time.

Hey, would there be any chance that I could put a link to that mp3 sample on the Memorial? I'll add a link to your ebay seller list, so people could see if yer offering up any cds.
I've always wanted to add sound to the site, but my free webspace is running very short. I've just about used up 10 megs of webspace.
Let me know!
TG
http://www.exotic-tiki-gardens.com

Hey, I've added the link, and a link to your seller list, scream at me if you want it taken off.
Sorry, couldn't resist the idea of the theme playing while people stroll the gardens.
TG
http://www.exotic-tiki-gardens.com

hey no problem- the mp3 is for anyone who wants to hear it :)

I made a static webpage for the album, which right now is redirecting to the auction page, but will be an actual info-page very soon:

http://www.tikimug.com/tikigardensrecord.html

The Tiki Gardens LP auction closes tommorow morning- heads up for anyone wanting one-

I'm probably not going to be posting anymore for quite awhile- maybe never if it is a pain to copy all these CD's

The Tiki Gardens LP auction closes tommorow morning- heads up for anyone wanting one-

I'm probably not going to be posting anymore for quite awhile- maybe never if it is a pain to copy all these CD's

--Jeez, you're gonna collect $150 - $200 selling the 10 CD-R's on Ebay - what are you complaining about? Your cost for the blank CD-R's and postage will be about $40, netting you a cool profit of $100 - $150 for a few hours work. I think it would have been much cooler to offer this recording as part of a CD tree, or MP3's on a website with cover scan's downloadable as .jpg's or PDF's. Hopefully one of the poor saps getting soaked for $15.00 will be willing to share the wealth and make copies at a more reasonable price (or hopefully free). Your posts following the initial auction announcement have been annoying - by saying your moving next month and that it's gonna be a pain to make 10 copies, you're merely trying to get more people to bid so you can make even more money! This definitely isn't keeping in the spirit of tiki and the Tiki Central group!

Sean

oh please, you ass.

I've been in this tiki collecting scene before you grew your first goatee. If my main goal was trying to make a profit, I'd be selling my 800+ tikimugs on Ebay to guys like you.. oh wait, you're one of those guys that thinks every mug should be 50 cents.

I'm tired of "enthusiasts" like you who are constantly whining about prices and what people are selling/buying stuff for- I have news for you, its a capitalist society. Its based on money.
Nobody owes you anything, so if you have a problem with the price of something, I suggest you quit your record store job and do something that pays for more than your roommate-share of rent- dahmn!

And I'll tell ya one other thing- Trader Frank himself didn't work for free, and I don't plan to either.

And before you go telling me what my "profit" is- try factoring in the $175 bucks I paid for the record AND the $245 bucks I paid for the analog CD burning equipment.. and no, they DON'T turn up at a Salvation Army for 82 cents, and they don't give them away at any SF Hippie FreeStore hahahaha

[ Edited by: fatuhiva on 2002-09-15 21:03 ]

I'm going against my own golden rule of never getting involved
in a fight where the punches are already swinging (as you inevitably
catch a knock on the head from either side), but it did strike me that
it was a little mean-spirited to put these CD's on eBay after the previous
topic mentioning that they were going to be made available to TikiCentralites.

I've nothing against anyone putting whatever they want on eBay, and hopefully
making a tidy capitalist profit on it. Part of the fun is seeing just how much an item
ends up going for. If anyone here decides to put stuff up on eBay, and gives us all notice,
then that's fine. It's nice to get the 'heads up', and a lot of us enjoy seeing our pal's auctions
going through the roof.

When TikiCentralites make interesting stuff available to the rest of us at low cost, like BigBro has
with his videos and Tiki Chris has with his prints, that's particularly good of them. That's really in keeping with the whole spirit of Tiki Central. I just find it a little dubious when initial posts make it seem like
something has been made available in this spirit, then it just turns into a plug for the eBay
'every man for himself' scramble.

Please don't hit me!

Trader Woody

I thought it was a bummer that you "will post to United States only."

:(

1. There is a lot of overhead in making a good CD recording of an LP. So, if you want to get into "profit," do the work yourself and decide.

2. Nothing says this is the only incarnation of the Tiki Gardens LP on CD. Whatever was thought of for making it a Tiki Central or Tiki Gardens thing, can still be done.

3. I don't think many of us are going to win the bid on the next LP that shows up on Ebay. At least this way, we might get to hear it one day.

On 2002-09-16 08:10, Trader Woody wrote:
it did strike me that
it was a little mean-spirited to put these CD's on eBay after the previous
topic mentioning that they were going to be made available to TikiCentralites.

When TikiCentralites make interesting stuff available to the rest of us at low cost, like BigBro has
with his videos and Tiki Chris has with his prints, that's particularly good of them. That's really in keeping with the whole spirit of Tiki Central. I just find it a little dubious when initial posts make it seem like
something has been made available in this spirit, then it just turns into a plug for the eBay
'every man for himself' scramble.

I agree! Considering that what you are doing is ILLEGAL, due to copyright laws, I think that promoting it the way you did and making a profit is definitely not in the Tiki Central spirit!
...but then I'm the guy that sent FREE copies of the Palm Springs tiki weekend video CD that I shot out to anyone that wanted one (and I'm still willing to do that- if anyone wants one, please email me)

And no, it's NOT a big deal to record an album and put it on CD- don't pull that crap!

I have an idea, for those who were not lucky enough to have won one of the 10 cd's listed. So fatuhiva, this is just an idea and by the way you talked you have already put some money into it. So go ahead and do what you have to do to make your money back, then why don't you sign up on KaZaA.com and copy the Tiki Gardens onto it so that everyone on Tiki Central can go in and download it. Yes I know that(they say)it to is illegal but hey who's going to catch ya. I know all at Tiki Central will not tell. But if thats not something you will be willing to do, then who ever won one of the Cd's this will be a good time to get real close with your Tiki Central mates. But this is all just an idea.

:evil:

No more TIKI 4 U!!!!

[ Edited by: mad-tiki on 2002-09-16 13:20 ]

I'm going to move this to the Collecting Tiki section. It's Ebay. That's where this should have been all along.

~Hanford

Maybe not for you, but, here's what's involved for me.

A) You gotta get the albums, which has been about 25 years of collecting, and can cost, depending on what you want. Or not.
B) You have to have a quality stereo system with turntable. Guess at the price for that. At leaast $200-300 for the turntable, cartridge and stylus alone.
C) You have to have a computer and appropriate software for the job. I use Sound Forge. Computer, software, there's at least $1000.
D) Hook them up and let go. Right? That's an hour just to record one record to wave file. Assuming all goes well and you get the whole side on one take.
E) Copy and paste each track to a new file.
F) Go through each song and edit out every pop and crackle you can by hand. You can run it through a smoothing processor, but that has a negative effect on any part of the record that isn't a pop or crackle, which is 99% of it.
G) Work at getting the right Normalization levels. Can be easy, can be a chore. Once you get it right for a recording, you dan't really have to mess with it too much more.
H) Save tracks to hard drive.
I) Convert to MP3 or not. Requires another software package.
J) Buy CD. labels, cases and cards, a mere $2-3 per cd.
K) Burn to CD.
L) Type all the songs up and make a label.
M) Make a card for the front of the case.

Done! That doesn't take more than 2-4 hours per record!

OR. Hook boombox to computer, record entire record, burn to cd, flip and repeat. Yes, that's not too hard, but not really worth listening to.

In this particular case, you have a very small set of people who own the Tiki Gardens LP. Of those, a small set that is interested in sharing in any way. Of those, a small set that has the equipment to make a CD. Of those, a small set that will do it.

In the end, people are either going to pay for it or not. If no one buys, then there is something wrong in the equation. If they are all sold, so be it. The market will make the call.

My call, the price is a little high. I might buy, I might not. Probably not. Just keep searching the record bins and hope.

The Swank Pad Broadcast - If it's Swank...

[ Edited by: Swanky on 2002-09-16 13:40 ]

This is all I'm going to say on the matter at hand, and then I'm ignoring this thread.

The above rant of mine was, in my opinion, more about tiki price-whining in general on this board than the specific attack on my character.

However, since some more issues have been introduced, I shall respond:

#1) I NEVER said I was going to give CD's away for free to forum members or anyone else. I made an mp3 so people could hear some of it, and that's about it. If you read "free" into my last posts, you weren't paying attention- the people that would get a free copy from me would be someone like Tiki Gardener, who has a grandfathered-in right to have a copy. Other than that..? I don't get free mugs in the mail from forum members, so why...

#2) What is this fictious "tiki spirit" you hippies are coming up with? Does this have something to do with the Jimmy Buffet records you guys are spinning in your home tikibars? (repeat after me: AR-THUR LY-MAN)

Like I said earlier, I have been collecting tiki since the earliest days of its "resurgence". There was a time when I was one of three people bidding on tikimugs on Ebay- and that was after I had already built half my collection.
-I point this out not to claim I'm hipper than anyone else, or an innovator or any stupid crap like that- I point it out to back myself up when I say this "spirit" thing is something made up by the NEWBIES that wasn't ever a part of tiki-collecting.

Back in the day I don't remember anybody giving things away for free unless it was between close friends or something like that- trading was done with a serious tone, and tikis were absolutely COVETED before Ebay- when you'd be lucky to see a Leilani mug in a week of scouring.

The concept of "tiki" may have taken on a new-school free-love kinda vibe in recent days amongst drinkin/partyin types who are more interested in it as a social scene than a past cultural/artistic phenomenon, but in my eyes, it's still the same thing- a lost culture/fad that I study and collect- it has nothing to do with living in a commune hahaha

-my 2 cents worth

PS- TikiChris, I'll send it to you in London, no problem. That part of my template is a leftover from when I was selling larger items. Shoot me an email and we can set something up.

[ Edited by: fatuhiva on 2002-09-16 14:21 ]

Sorry you aren't going to read this Fatuhiva,
but your reply reads like a pile of horse-shit. In so many ways.

Sorry you don't like the 'Spirit of Tiki'. You equate it to hippies, I equate it to the early hardcore punk scene where tapes were traded and records were sold cheap. It's basic fraternity, decency and all that mushy stuff that you haven't got a handle on. While there's very few items of Tiki interest I can provide from the UK, I hope that Tiki Centralites could quite happily e-mail for a place to stay or for me to show them around if they come over here. Similarly, the offers I've had out of the blue have warmed the cockles of my heart. Can't put a $ on that.

This whole 'I'm into this first' (says who?) crap is pathetic, but it gives a good insight into the whole deal with the CD's. Of course, we're all newbies....ripe to be exploited.

Nobody asked for you to give away your frigging CD's for free. Just don't pretend you are doing us all a favor.

Trader Woody
And the Buffett crack was lame.

I think he's just sore that his tiki message board at tikimug.com never took off!!! :lol:

I think all of us on this board would agree that we love getting bargains. For some of us on a budget (like me and my hubby) getting a steal is the only way we ever get ANYTHING. But as an ebayer myself, I am getting very tired of all the pissing and moaning from people that think that anyone owes them anything for a bargian. I think the price of the tiki garden cd is incredibly generous, to even gripe is an insult to someone that probably has a mortgage and a car payment like the rest of us! Even offering the CD lowers the value of the LP that he paid top dollar for, something that I personally would never do. I love living in all my vintage madness, but sometimes when times get tough you have to sell a treasure to make the more mundane things in life...so he is actually doing you all a favor..dipping into his own "vintage savings account".
Also for anyone that might gripe about ebay, where else can you sit in you PJ's in the middle of the night, and bid on an amazing tiki item and get it shipped straight to your house. All this after SOMEONE ELSE searched it out, knew what it was, cleaned and photographed it, paid the ebay fees, packed and shipped and prayed it got there okay. You are paying for the labor too, and the people make the price. Ebay might be the greatest thing that has ever happened to the collecting community, I feel the price is a miniscule compared to the service and great items you can get!

do you think some of you might be bitter than someone has something cool that you don't? If you really feel that way then you'll never really appreciate the "finds" you might get. I don't think any of us are ever going to have the "definitive" collections, and even if we did...how much happier would that really make you? Chill out folks...its only tiki!

I feel this is just ruffled feathers. I think there is plenty of "tiki spirit" here. Maybe just someone decided what that should mean for someone else.

And I think once some four-lettered words got used, it makes it a flame instantly here on the Internet.

I do also realize there were some Tiki Gardens feet stepped on. Maybe there should have been some negotiations behind closed doors.

I don't even know where to begin. First of all, you have no idea who I am, so most of your post regarding my character is complete bulls**t. You don't have any idea how long I've been collecting tiki, and even if you did it has nothing to do with why I am upset about your Ebay auction. Just FYI though, I happen to Double Crown Records with about 20 releases to date. I also put out a publication called The Continental Magazine which began about the same time as Tiki News. I own a complete collection of Tiki News fanzines, have a large mug collection, own a couple of dozen tiki/cocktail books, have a home bar and have a 5 foot tiki in my back yard. Shag has designed the covers for two of the releases on my label and I have contributed articles/reviews to Tiki News and Cool & Strange Music. I only post this information on this public forum because you have chosen to attack me in this public forum.

The reason I am so fired up about your Ebay auction is that you are, in essence, bootlegging the original LP. I don't care if it's rare, or that you paid $175 for the LP, to make copies and sell them for profit is bootlegging. Are you paying any royalties to the folks that put the original LP together? Have you made any effort to contact them to see if it could be released legitimately? Do you have their permission to do what you're doing? Should I start selling CD-R copies of all of my Martin Denny and Esquivel LP's so I can make back the money I spent on them? It's absolutely absurd to justify what you're doing by saying it cost you $175 for the LP and $245 for your CD burning equipment.

I don't f**kin' appreciate being called a hippie...if you even knew me you would know that I hate hippie bands/music/lifestyle. I get e-mails all the time because I slam hippie surf bands like The Mermen and I can't stand the Dead/Phish/Buffett etc.

Boy am I glad that this is the official Tiki Central message board and not http://www.tikimug.com. Why didn't you just post your e-bay messages to your own board...oh wait, nobody visits your board anymore ;-(

I really wanted to shut your auction down by notifying Ebay, but in the end decided not to because I figured that someone would get the CD and offer it to members of the list at cost. I think people are upset because they thought that's what you were going to do, not offer it for free, but offer it to anyone who wanted it at cost. $5/copy seems fair, it covers your cost and postage. Perhaps a CD-Tree would have been better so you wouldn't have to do all the work yourself. But it is very obvious that your intention was to make money off this.

I have no problem with making out of print music available free or at cost, but when people try to profit, well, as a label owner it makes my blood boil. You're not the only one - I just heard that Jack Diamond has begun selling CD-R's of hard to find exotic music and that pisses me off just as much (especially since he doesn't mention on his website that he is selling CD-R's!).

So I hope you're happy getting $16/CD in your auction (hope that covers postage!). To the 32 people that didn't win - hang tight. I'm sure someone will be kind enough to make this available to you all very soon.

Sean
Double Crown Records

oh please, you ass.

I've been in this tiki collecting scene before you grew your first goatee. If my main goal was trying to make a profit, I'd be selling my 800+ tikimugs on Ebay to guys like you.. oh wait, you're one of those guys that thinks every mug should be 50 cents.

I'm tired of "enthusiasts" like you who are constantly whining about prices and what people are selling/buying stuff for- I have news for you, its a capitalist society. Its based on money.
Nobody owes you anything, so if you have a problem with the price of something, I suggest you quit your record store job and do something that pays for more than your roommate-share of rent- dahmn!

And I'll tell ya one other thing- Trader Frank himself didn't work for free, and I don't plan to either.

And before you go telling me what my "profit" is- try factoring in the $175 bucks I paid for the record AND the $245 bucks I paid for the analog CD burning equipment.. and no, they DON'T turn up at a Salvation Army for 82 cents, and they don't give them away at any SF Hippie FreeStore hahahaha

[ Edited by: fatuhiva on 2002-09-15 21:03 ]

Please no more name-calling. These days that's basically the difference between a flame and a thread.

~Hanford

Into every paradise a little rain must fall...

[i]the people that would get a free copy from me would be someone like Tiki Gardener, who has a grandfathered-in right to have a copy.

[ Edited by: fatuhiva on 2002-09-16 14:21 ]

Well, thanks, as I always tell my folks when they offer me something; " You're sure? Because, I'll never ask for it, but if you're offerin, I'll take it! "

And since I look like a hippie, I will be offering free copies of the cd to those people who have contributed to the Tiki Gardens Memorial. Once I have a cd burner, or Tangaroa will allow the use of his for this purpose.
I have a feeling that certain somones will be offering up copies for sale, whether they're at cost, well I wouldn't hold your breath. At least given what I've seen recently.
I have to admit to being on both sides of this argument, and I ask for a slight notching down of the pissing match.
Would it have beem better if the cd's had been offered up in a limited run at a set price ( with moderate profit for the time, equipment investment, etc )???
The bootlegging question, well Trader Frank, and Jo are both dead, their daughter died years ago, the Australians who bought
them out sold the park to Pinellas County, so, that combined with my fleeting knowledge of copyright laws that tells me this thing probably became public domain years ago.
Does all of that make it any less technically " bootlegging "? I dunno. Anybody have a clue on that one?
This all taps into a different question I've wrangled with. Namely- I started the Memorial as a non profit endevor to broaden the ( at the time ) limited apparent knowledge available about this cool cool Tiki land. I've had plenty of tres cool product ideas, but always put the idea out of the picture. Who knows, maybe if the ultimate product idea pops into my head, I'll follow through, and offer up a number for first comes first serves on Tiki Central.
But who knows. Right now, as I've discovered another 50 megs of webspace, I don't have to try and think about how to pay for the Memorials web presence.
And it would be nice to have the site generating money so I could have deep pockets to buy all the Tiki Gardens stuff that pops up on ebay, and other places, but, I'd rather have people dig up their memoribilia and send me images or stories of their Tiki gardens Memories.
Sorry to ramble, and perhaps I've not made any sense, but I really hate to see everybody getting their panties in a knot over this.
Double Crown, send me yer email addie, and I'll make arrangements to send you a cassette dub ( I don't have a burner ) once I get my tiki mits on a copy of the Disc.
I hope the Gardener ( who happens to look like a hippie ) has balanced his way through this little Typhoon, and he invites all of you to take a slow stroll through the Memorial, accompanied by the Tiki Gardens theme ( graciously provided by Fatuhiva ).
And reflect upon what was a great place, and upon what a great place we have here.
Tiki Gardener
( Trying to unstir the pot for a change )
The Tiki Gardens Memorial
http://www.exotic-tiki-gardens.com

Ahhh, TIKI...just another four letter word.

Interesting threaded debate.

Staying in the "TIKI SPIRIT"...
:sheckymug:

P.S.
"Now lets not resort to childish name calling, right Mr. Poopie-pants?"

Well, just as the smoke was clearing, eBay declares the auction null and void. Now NOBODY gets one. :(

Dear (bidder)
Please be aware that auction:
2138972536 - TIKI GARDENS LP RECORD on CD! Vintage Record in which you were a bidding participant, has been ended early by eBay as it appears to offer an item or contains material which is prohibited for sale on eBay. Because the auction was ended early, you as a bidder are not required to complete the transaction.

If you would like to review our listing guidelines for a better understanding of our auction policies, they can be found at: http://pages.ebay.com/help/community/png-list.html

Please feel free to contact us with any questions or concerns you may have on our existing policies.

Regards,
Customer Support (Trust and Safety Department)
ebay

eBay declares the auction null and void.

Wow! Mom was right when she yelled at us saying: "If all of you can't play nice, then nobody gets to play at all!"

Oh well, I'll just have to enjoy the mp3 fatuhiva posted and just loop it over and over and over and.....

SugarCaddyDaddy

Wow, I guess somebody else felt the same way about this auction. I didn't notify the Ebay police because I was hoping one of the recipients would be willing to start a CD tree or offer the CD to Tiki Central members at cost. I am sorry for using foul language in my previous e-mail, but I was (and still am) a little upset at somebody slamming me in public, without knowing anything about me.

Sean

On 2002-09-17 14:47, TikiMikey wrote:
Well, just as the smoke was clearing, eBay declares the auction null and void. Now NOBODY gets one. :(

Dear (bidder)
Please be aware that auction:
2138972536 - TIKI GARDENS LP RECORD on CD! Vintage Record in which you were a bidding participant, has been ended early by eBay as it appears to offer an item or contains material which is prohibited for sale on eBay. Because the auction was ended early, you as a bidder are not required to complete the transaction.

If you would like to review our listing guidelines for a better understanding of our auction policies, they can be found at: http://pages.ebay.com/help/community/png-list.html

Please feel free to contact us with any questions or concerns you may have on our existing policies.

Regards,
Customer Support (Trust and Safety Department)
ebay

Now I got no real Tiki Gardens, no peace on the planet, no tiki spirit & no CD either....

I've gotta go mix a drink.

For the record, although I pointed out that what he was doing was illegal, I was not the person who blew the whistle on him.

I am pleased as punch though! ...although I'm sure he'll have no problem finding buyers for any amount of CD copies that he has made or wants to make...

At least Ebay is doing the right thing.

And it wasn't me either. Being a Brit, I play by the 'Queensbury rules'.

Trader Woody

Ha! I'm glad ebay dumped the auction- the $160 I could take or leave, and now I at least know that this record is going to stay obscure, as it (apparent to me now) should be. After reading through these dumb posts, I realize, as the Archers of Loaf put so eloquently..
"The underground is overcrowded"

I was trying to think of a way to get out of distributing copies after I realized how silly this scene has gotten, what with people considering tattling on one another, etc.. which, by the way is what happened- somebody snitched- hmmmm I wonder who.. maybe the guy who flamed ME first, and then claimed I was coming at him for no reason (read the thread) - he did say he was considering it. Or perhaps it was The HallMonitor who keeps barking about copyrights (more below) -The funny thing is how on one hand you whine about legalities, and then on the other tell me I should be putting it on Kazaa- d u h.

Anyway- now none of you will hear this record, and I have to say, I'm not upset by it. As a matter of fact, I'm listening to it now, and its soothing sounds are ever the more sweet knowing they will never fall on the ears of the unworthy. :lol:

And to whomever keeps yapping about how it is illegal to make copies of this album- are you even reading the thread? You obviously don't know the first thing about Tiki Gardens. Let me educate you- the owners of have both passed on years ago, the property itself has been completely razed for years and ownership of the land has changed hands multiple times. This album will never be "re-issued", and is, at this point, in the public domain. Trader Frank just wanted people to remember Tiki Gardens- I tried to get this LP out there, and fill people's homes with the sound of the Trader's voice- and you poseurs get all out of wack about it. Lame, lame, lame- maybe this tiki thing has about run its course..

BTW- Isn't "Trader Vic.com" Cybersquatting? That's a corporate trademark. I'm telling!

[ Edited by: fatuhiva on 2002-09-18 06:03 ]

Well, one thing in fatuhiva's defense is that he didn't necessarily set the price on the TG cds. As far as he knew when he listed it, there could've ended up being only 4 bidders with a cheap ending price. So he wasn't necessarily gonna get some massive profit - the numbers turned out to be pretty high without his control. You can't really call a seller greedy when they have a low starting price auction that ends up going through the roof.

But I agree that it seemed like a bait-and-switch to tell everyone about making digital copies of the LP so that interested people can hear it, and to then just put copies on ebay. He also posted later, seemingly to talk up the price. I think this was the beef that people had when they said "tiki spirit" and stuff like that - I think they were partially referring to the tiki spirit that seemed to even be in fatuhiva's original posts about this. Even fatuhiva's most recent neener-neener post ("I tried to get this LP out there and fill people's homes ...") still pretends to have some of the kind of "tiki spirit" that he ridiculed in the same thread. Personally I totally disagree with fatuhiva's claim that in the old days tiki collecting was all about dog-eat-dog price competition and privately hoarding things and not sharing. In fact, to me, this is the kind of price-guide-wielding, over-serious, pro collector talk that ruins EVERY kind of fun collecting genre.

I also agree that technically it's illegal, even though I don't think that was anyone's main beef. The law doesn't say that something automatically becomes public domain once it changes hands a certain number of times or once the original rights owner dies. And complaining about being finked on with ebay is like trying to argue out of a speeding ticket - it's kind of silly because the fact is that the rules were broken. It also doesn't mean that the underground is overcrowded or that tiki has run it's course or any of that sour grapes stuff.

It also sounds really silly to try to justify prices by any litany of expenses that supposedly went into the cds. How about I photograph a shag print and sell copies on ebay, and justify the price by saying it is offset by $150 for the original print, $200 for the frame, $350 for the digital camera, $1000 for the computer that I use to transfer the photo to a floppy, $17,000 for the car I use to drive to kinko's to print copies of the photo, and $2 for each photo print. That's all silly because I get to keep the original, the frame, the camera, the computer, and the car.

-Randy

--I wasn't going to say any more about this issue, but I have to say that Randy's post sums up exactly why I was upset about this whole deal. He just said it better than me.

Sean

On 2002-09-18 14:17, aquarj wrote:
Well, one thing in fatuhiva's defense is that he didn't necessarily set the price on the TG cds. As far as he knew when he listed it, there could've ended up being only 4 bidders with a cheap ending price. So he wasn't necessarily gonna get some massive profit - the numbers turned out to be pretty high without his control. You can't really call a seller greedy when they have a low starting price auction that ends up going through the roof.

But I agree that it seemed like a bait-and-switch to tell everyone about making digital copies of the LP so that interested people can hear it, and to then just put copies on ebay. He also posted later, seemingly to talk up the price. I think this was the beef that people had when they said "tiki spirit" and stuff like that - I think they were partially referring to the tiki spirit that seemed to even be in fatuhiva's original posts about this. Even fatuhiva's most recent neener-neener post ("I tried to get this LP out there and fill people's homes ...") still pretends to have some of the kind of "tiki spirit" that he ridiculed in the same thread. Personally I totally disagree with fatuhiva's claim that in the old days tiki collecting was all about dog-eat-dog price competition and privately hoarding things and not sharing. In fact, to me, this is the kind of price-guide-wielding, over-serious, pro collector talk that ruins EVERY kind of fun collecting genre.

I also agree that technically it's illegal, even though I don't think that was anyone's main beef. The law doesn't say that something automatically becomes public domain once it changes hands a certain number of times or once the original rights owner dies. And complaining about being finked on with ebay is like trying to argue out of a speeding ticket - it's kind of silly because the fact is that the rules were broken. It also doesn't mean that the underground is overcrowded or that tiki has run it's course or any of that sour grapes stuff.

It also sounds really silly to try to justify prices by any litany of expenses that supposedly went into the cds. How about I photograph a shag print and sell copies on ebay, and justify the price by saying it is offset by $150 for the original print, $200 for the frame, $350 for the digital camera, $1000 for the computer that I use to transfer the photo to a floppy, $17,000 for the car I use to drive to kinko's to print copies of the photo, and $2 for each photo print. That's all silly because I get to keep the original, the frame, the camera, the computer, and the car.

-Randy

well, guys- I guess thats why you'll never hear it :)

That "tiki spirit" you were sensing in my posts must have been coming from the bong you guys were firing up while putting on the Buffet LP.. everybody on this board puts stuff up on Ebay, including myself. you're busting my nuts for doing the usual routine, simply because you're too cheap to bid on it- but thats the beauty of Ebay I suppose- those that want it enough get it. Those that wouldnt bother to pay $9.99 for my trouble aren't tiki enough to hear it in my opinion.

[ Edited by: fatuhiva on 2002-09-18 14:52 ]

Yes, what you are saying sounds silly. But if it is, then there are lots of silly people out there who do silly things like charge money for making a poster of the Mona Lisa, sighting their silly costs for the equipment and rights to get a quality image, and the equipment to turn that into a quality poster and the cost of the paper and ink and the people who print the poster's time... That's a bunch of silly stuff. Publishers of all sorts are just silly.

The other option is for there to be one copy of the Mona Lisa and you must go where it is to see it.

Swanky, your example illustrates the point perfectly. Indeed, the actual printing cost is reasonable to account for, but it would be silly to cite the $$ value of the Mona Lisa as justification for the price of a print reproduction. Rougly speaking, the repro oughta cost the same as a repro of Dogs Playing Poker.

Of course when you bring up the business context, there's a much more complex depreciation equation based on volume, in which EVERY expense counts, including the absurd kinds of things I referred to like a car used for transportation. But each expense counts MUCH LESS per item, but that's probably way too off-topic for this forum anyway.

You're also right that many people do silly things all the time. Even people on this list, including me!

-Randy

sean i don’t understand your concept of "copying it for free is okay, but selling it is not"

copying is copying. if you’ve decided you’re going to break copyright laws, then what does it matter if you charge for it or not? or even if there’s no copyright, why does it matter if it’s free or not? it seems like a arbitrary decision

perhaps one might sleep better at night knowing that they didn’t profit off of a copy they gave to a friend, but the repercussions to the copyright holder are exactly the same whether you copied for free or charged money. in fact one could argue that giving them away for free devalues the original more than a charging for copies.

just a thought

I've been reading this thread with interest... and though I had no intention of joining the fray, this brought back a most fond childhood memory that I must now share. So everybody, sing along to the tune of Eddie Murphy's "Ice Cream Man":

I've got my Tiki Gardens LP
I've got my Tiki Gardens
And you don't get none, and you don't get none
Cuz you are on the wellllfare
And your father is an al-co-holll-ic
You... can't...afffforrrrrd it!!!

Which reminds me: Eddie Murphy Delirious is long out of print. Somebody with a $1000 DVD burner should dig up a VHS copy and dutch auction some DVDs. I'd probably bite.

WANT A LISTEN? PSYCH!!!

mig.

Anyway- now none of you will hear this record, and I have to say, I'm not upset by it. As a matter of fact, I'm listening to it now, and its soothing sounds are ever the more sweet knowing they will never fall on the ears of the unworthy. :lol:

I have to say, I've been leaning toward fatuhiva's side throughout most of this thread. Alot of people take this tiki crap too seriously.
I actually laughed my ass off when I read all that hippie stuff. I agree that "tiki spirit" is a newly coined phrase.
I've heard of "aloha spirit" & things "made with aloha", but tiki spirit? It sounds weird & newage-ish when people are talking about "tiki spirit" & the spirit of giving & sharing. I'm pretty sure there was never a "god of benevolent collectors"
I give stuff away all the time & always have. I also sell stuff all the time & usually find that when people know too much of your business: where you got it, how much, ect, the more they try to work you on the price & you end up being a dirty capitalist.

I think it was entirely fair to offer copies of the cd's for sale & the price wasnt astronomical, but people went & bitched about it.....ALOT. I would've been annoyed too.
I'm pretty sure there are more copies of that record to be found & not neccesarily on ebay. As if ebay is the only place to find anything? I guarantee more will turn up, there is always more shtuff out there, so no big whoop.

Hey somebody agrees with me! :lol:

Of course there are other copies of that record out there- ebay is definitely not the only place to find something- I just use it as a time:rarity reference since so many items pass through ebay in a given year.

I'm glad at least one guy found that hippie stuff funny! Thats why I was writing it anyway, I was laughing as I came up with it hahaha

Thank you for your support.

(whatever happened to that ad campaign?)

News Development: Regarding legalities of digitizing the LP- I just talked to the person who now owns the federal trademark to Tiki Gardens. He has "no problem whatsoever with it" in fact- he was bidder.

[ Edited by: fatuhiva on 2002-09-19 13:14 ]

Well, I offered before to just buy one. Interested now? I'll pay $20 (shipping included) for a copy of the CD if you're interested in selling one.

Tiki Central Rules! I love you guys! I love everyone!

I agree that "tiki spirit" is a newly coined phrase.
I've heard of "aloha spirit" & things "made with aloha", but tiki spirit?

Funnily enough 'Tiki Spirit' was a phrase coined by fatuhiva, the sensitive soul that he is. I mentioned the 'spirit of Tiki Central', which is really quite a different kettle of fish. Hope the wiser TC members can spot the difference!

Trader Woody

I don't check in here too often. sorry if I am not following protocol but I feel compelled to chime in on this topic

Brian
I can't believe you are such an idiot to publicly post all this crap you have been saying. Assuming that you actually believe it and are not just trying to be funny and take the piss out of everyone here I'd have to say that you must lead a VERY unhappy life.

If there is no Tiki community then why the hell do I have to answer a dozen emails a week disseminating information for free? (want me to forward them to you in case you don't believe me?) I'll tell ya why, out of the goodness of my heart, and what goes around comes around - a lot of people give me free information in return. If there is no Tiki community who are these hundreds of people who attend all my shows and who are the thousands of people who buy my magazine? Just because you have not seen it and are not part of it does not mean that it is not real.

It is a shame that you could not make it out to the Tiki Oasis in Palm Springs or the Hukilau in Atlanta, I think you would have seen the Tiki community in action. In Palm Springs all you had to do was ask for a Mai Tai and one would have appeared in your hand for FREE during the 48 hours of the event. I threw that event for free (ie I did not make one dime off it), I got the artwork for free, the entertainment was free, and of course it was one hell of a fun party. You can't buy friendships and true generosity like what was flowing that whole weekend.

Your comments about Tiki collectors not GIVING away mugs is simply untrue! I have given Tiki mugs to people and also sold them for a buck or two more than what I paid for them ($3-$4). I also have received mugs FREE from friends, in fact nearly one third of my collection is from gifts or trades!

Maybe you should unsubscribe from this list and stick to all your FRIENDS that you have from your activities on ebay. Friends that only like you and know you because you have something to buy and sell.

Your defensiveness and comments about Tiki fans being hippies and wanting you to give them your CDr for free is extreme

[ Edited by: Otto 2015-09-06 00:29 ]

Otto to the rescue!!!!

Wow, Otto! Those still waters be running deep, eh?

Rich