$hag Tiki Room Original on eBay

I'm finding it very difficult to restrain myself from voicing what I really think about this auction. :x Anyone else care to comment...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3554157767&category=20135

$ame $eller who resold the "D - Devil" original right after the $hag: A-Z exhibit.

I'm trying hard to bite my tongue here, but I think it is just rotten! It hasn't even been 1 week since the "big event" and it's already listed? Come on! I'm sure there are many other people who would have loved to have the opportunity to buy these originals and made them the focal point of their Shag collection. (I know I would have) Obviously these "sellers" aren't true Shag collectors but instead are in it solely for the money. What a pity! Remember karma

[ Edited by: tikichic on 2003-09-24 01:20 ]

duh

The seller is our very own Jax Tiki, or his brother anyway. They also got the original painting from which the prints were made, and prints 1-4.

Oh, I note that the auction violates Ebay policy in so much as it states that Paypal fees are partly to be paid by the buyer.

From the Ebay Policy: Sellers may not charge eBay buyers an additional fee for their use of ordinary forms of payment, including acceptance of checks, money orders, electronic transfers or credit cards. Such costs should be built into the price of the item-this policy reduces the potential for confusion among bidders about the true cost of an item. Further, some forms of payment surcharges, such as credit card surcharges, are forbidden under the laws of many states, including California.

http://pages.ebay.com/help/index_popup.html?policies=listing-ov.html

[ Edited by: Suburban Hipster on 2003-09-24 05:50 ]

You guys are absurd you know that right :wink:

There is nothing morally wrong about selling any object that's not going to harm people. It's an object. Matter. Inanimate even.

Rational people? In MY town? Get out!
http://universist.meetup.com

On 2003-09-24 05:49, kahukini wrote:

There is nothing morally wrong about selling any object that's not going to harm people.

When you talk of morality here, are you speaking from a belief in a universal moral principle applicable to this situation?

[ Edited by: Suburban Hipster on 2003-09-24 05:59 ]

I heard several people commenting about the conduct of the people who arrived late, pushed their way to the front, then ran the fastest to get in line first. It appears that the only motivation was to buy the original and flip it to make some cash. Blame Disney for horrible organization of this event. Hoprfully no TC members will bid on this, but i'm sure someone will. May all the birds from the Tiki Room swoop down and poop all over his painting!

On 2003-09-24 05:49, kahukini wrote:
You guys are absurd you know that right :wink:

There is nothing morally wrong about selling any object that's not going to harm people. It's an object. Matter. Inanimate even.

---

Rational people? In MY town? Get out!
http://universist.meetup.com

Ditto!

(you all do know that you got 'Shagged' don't you?)

Jax Tiki
Tiki Centralite

Joined: Dec 21, 2002
Posts: 12 Posted: 2003-09-22 14:46

My brother and me scoped out the arrangements on Friday and parked at the Disney Californian Resort at 5:30...made it to the gates by 5:45 where a crowd of 12-15 were there already. As fortune would have it...I was one of those idiots who ran as the gates opened and scored the Original Tiki room painting. My brother followed with the "Waking Jose" painting. I guess at least a TC'er has it instead of someone in Japan.
Regards to Hal...a fellow TC'er from Tampa whom I met while Shag signed items. We both travelled from Florida just for the event.

Ahh, good old capitalism...nothing like it to get the blood stirring....seriously, yeah it sucks that the event was organized to allow people to "race" to the goodies, but what can you do....on the other hand, maybe he's thrown some insane reserve on it just to see how high a bid he'll get

So it sounds like these guys bought paintings with the hope of making a profit by reselling them later. And this is bad, right? Isn't that exactly what Disneyland itself did? Why would it be worse for anyone, denizens of TC or not, to support one kind of profit (for private individuals), but not wrong to support the other kind (for D-land the organization)?

Personally, I find it a little strange for someone to be interested in this particular method of profit-making, but I don't see what's wrong with it. For every buyer there's gotta be a seller, and lord knows I'm a buyer way too often when it comes to this ridiculous tiki habit. So I'm often glad these seller types are out there - if everyone did it just "for the love of the object" and kept things for themselves, then it'd be a lot harder for a kook like me to find the stuff.

-Randy

Me, I'm just sick to puking of eBay, period. Nuff said.

em.

What do you think Shag's motivation was in creating these designs??????? Or any for that matter?

To preserve what is sacred?

Love and respect of that which is tiki?

NO and NO.

Perhaps P Diddy said it best:

It's All About The Benjamin's

[ Edited by: Monkeyman on 2003-10-27 11:03 ]

Yeah, it's a little disappointing to see the print turn around that fast, but whoever gets it at that price must really want it and will give it a good home.

Someone will always get somewhere first and someone else will be too late, but that was part of the fun of the Disney event wasn't it? (Did you see the mugs are going for upwards of $300?)

It's pretty clear that this kind of selling practice is always going to be controversial. Seems like people on this board are split on their opinions...and I can understand both points of view. For me the issue has nothing to do with selling something on eBay (no problem)...or with making money (everybody is entitled)...or with anything you might classify as "moral" behavior (who am I to judge?). It's the fact that this seller obviously goes so far out of their way to get these paintings (screwing over many TC people in the process), then brags about the paintings on TC, only to immediately turn around and try and resell them to the same TC people that he just screwed over for what will likely be a rediculous profit. It just feels like a slap in the face to me. Have a little respect, please.

OK, I'm done ranting about this. Time to move on. Good luck selling your paintings and I hope you really enjoy your money.

On 2003-09-24 09:22, Tiki_Bong wrote:
(you all do know that you got 'Shagged' don't you?)

I agree, royally Shagged.

On 2003-09-24 15:54, suzywong wrote:
What do you think Shag's motivation was in creating these designs??????? Or any for that matter?

To preserve what is sacred?

Love and respect of that which is tiki?

NO and NO.

I understand where you're coming from, and I love the Enchanted Tiki Room as much as the next girl, but it sure as hell ain't "sacred." Plus, Shag has been inspired by all things midcentury, very much including tiki, for many years now. More than a few folks have been introduced to Polynesian Pop through Shag. The boy is no johnny-come-lately. And hey, GOD FORBID an artist actually be able to make a nice living off of creating something. People make a ton of money doing all sorts of crappy and mundane and even hurtful things, I'm sure as hell not going to get my panties in a bunch over someone making money off of creating something.

I have a friend who is an architect, and he's not a big fan of Frank Gehry. However, he says he still likes having Gehry buildings in the world more than not having them. I guess that's how I feel about a lot of Shag stuff. It's not my bag, but I like a world with Shag in it better than a world without.

Back to the issue of folks snapping this stuff up only to turn around and sell it on eBay: they're entitled. They put in the effort to get there early and wait in line. There really isn't anything truly wrong with it. However, I was close enough to the front of the line that I could have bought two of everything and turned a tidy profit, but doing that at the expense of the guy behind me who actually wants to buy them to have because he likes them and was willing to stand in line for hours & hours because he got to Disneyland 30 minutes later than me... jeez, that's just kinda gross to me.

The best tiki bar is the one that's within stumbling distance of your bed
The Humuhumu Room

[ Edited by: Humuhumu on 2003-09-24 16:22 ]

On a lighter note, but still related to this thread. Did anyone notice that this painting "changed" from the preview image first shown before the event?

Left: Preview image from Shag's website
Right: photo that I took of the actual painting

Look...the guy's footware changed from tennis shoes to flip flops. Other details changed too, like the colors in his lei. And, the green background texture is vertical on the left image, but horizontal on the right image. Did Shag paint more than one of these?

Didn't someone around here say that in the original version presented to Disney, the man in Waking Jose was Walt, but that they said that was a no-no, so he changed it? Maybe I heard it in line. I would think that at that point he was probably just showing them concept sketches, but it would be interesting to see his take on Walt himself.

Hey, Sharp eyes ModMana! Which version is on the note cards? (I'm at work and can't check)

Very good ModMana. Very perceptive. I like the flip flops better.....

That's a real interesting observation regarding the original. That's the best part for me concerning Shag's work is knowing the history of his pieces or "story". Personally it means so much more to me if I know how Shag got the idea to paint his pieces or what inspired him.

I've been curious since I even heard that Disneyland was going to be selling the 4 originals WHY Disney didn't keep them to display themselves? Did Shag make other additional paintings that are owned by Disney that are hung in the park?

The "painting" on the preview site was probably a digital version that the painting was created from. Good catch!

Hey you guys, don't forget that Shag is an orange county boy! and that anything he did for D-land had heart in it.

I would just love to hear the stories of the ideas he came up with that disney nixed. You know there was some mischievious skullduggary or some little evil twist (that usually appear in his work) in the original concepts. That's one of the reasons we decided not to go for the print (that and the fact we were back in Vegas with a bit of a balance on the credit cards). When I saw the previews, to me they didn't represent the naughty 'Wives with Knives' Shag we all know and love. I could feel the heavy hand of Corporate holding the artist's inspired wrist.

And about the art re-sellers. We live in a free capitalist society (sorry Hanford) and that's just the way the ball bounces sometimes. Plus, duh... it's the nature of the fine art market. Hey, it's a living. We all should be doing what we love (whether carving tikis, painting, being royally shagged, or wheeling and dealing if thats what floats your boat). AND we all should be financially rewarded for it. Otherwise move to siberia :)

Lastly, when you hear of prints and paintings go for huge amounts of money, a huge system is being supported. Don't forget that galleries and printers, etc. All make a large percentage off of them as well. Full color postcards cost money and don't even get me started about the postage and mail list expenses. And oh, the artist really should eat, too.

Live and let live.

They actually have pictures of both versions on the auction. Must have snagged one from the Shag site.

On 2003-09-24 16:18, Humuhumu wrote:

Back to the issue of folks snapping this stuff up only to turn around and sell it on eBay: they're entitled. They put in the effort to get there early and wait in line. There really isn't anything truly wrong with it. However, I was close enough to the front of the line that I could have bought two of everything and turned a tidy profit, but doing that at the expense of the guy behind me who actually wants to buy them to have because he likes them and was willing to stand in line for hours & hours because he got to Disneyland 30 minutes later than me... jeez, that's just kinda gross to me.

I have to agree with Humuhumu. There is nothing wrong with making a profit, what these "shaggers" are doing isn't immoral (or is it amoral?). Selling stuff is a capitalistic right.

But what they are doing strikes at me personally. Those of you who know me, know how much I love Shag's work, ever since I saw one of his illustration in a book. I've gone though great lengths to aquire some his stuff, and every thing I've ever gotten, I still have. Knowing it's not easy to come by, it just irk me so that what I wanted so badly ended up in the hands of someone who could care less if it was a Shag mug, painting, beanie baby, or a share of webvan.com, as long as the yields are good.

While these shaggers are partially responsible for raising the commodity value of Shag's stuff, I think they are also responsible for cheapening their value as artwork, as you can see in the disgust in some of the posts.

Otto must be loving this.

Besides you all know that "collectibles" created to be "collectable" are never really all that "collectable" ...right(?)

These are NOTE CARDS!!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2193710592&category=144

Well, considering that "Walking Jose" was one of the two paintings I would have gladly purchased that day if fate would have had it my way, I'm not particularly thrilled about the auction, but as the french say, such is life.

This would be the reason other galleries use the lottery system. I tried to explain this to the "lead" who runs the Disneyanna Shop, but she didn't get it. Actually, Disney probably doesn't even care. They sold the paintings and got their money, so that's all that matters.

In the overall cosmic sense, it's not right; but there's nothing wrong with it either. I'll bid on the auction, but not a penny more than what the original cost.

By the way, I only bought one of everything except the pole mug, so other people waiting in line would have a chance. I got an extra because I'm paranoid that I'll drop the thing and break it one day.

[ Edited by: Hot Lava on 2003-09-24 22:56 ]

All these Shag items on ebay make me wonder what I could get for my Shag original, which has 3 tiki's in it. Just saw a Shag painting sell for almost $8,000. Thems a lot o clams!! I wonder what the all time record is for a tiki themed painting?

That's a good question Tiki Riviera. You should start a post like that to find out, what the secondary market is for tiki themed paintings.

The "One Enchanted Evening" piece with the Tiki Room's tiki pole and fountain depicted sold for $8,500 that day, drop of a hat. I think this is going to be a rare exception though.

Normally I would also think that there wouldn't be any headroom for a piece that valuable to increase to, but since it's both Disney & Shag there are two camps of collectors to clamour for it.

I've never seen this issue addressed: the short lifespan of acrylic paints.

When I was a kid and took painting lessons, both oil and acrylic, I was told that oil lasts, while acrylic starts to break down at around 50 years. Can any current artists out there tell me if the nature of acrylic paints has significantly changed since my childhood?

It seems to me that people are paying HUGE sums of money ($8,500!?) for things that they won't even be able to pass onto their kids, nor re-sell when they get old and want to retire to a mobilehome park in Florida (everyone's dream, right :wink:).

I discussed this once with a fellow TC-er, who proposed that maybe as Shag's work tips the hat towards our past mid-century, with its glorification of consumerism, why not make the art disposable too? Maybe that Josh himself might not see his work as High Art, and therefore it doesn't need to stick around in museums (or homes) after its glory days.

Any thoughts?

Looks like I have stirred up something devisive.

Here goes...

-Since when has being a Tiki Fanatic and an entrepreneur been mutually exclusive items?

Let's look at some hard facts:
Disney commissioned a hip artist Shag to paint four originals of a great Tiki icon.
I was very surprised that they were then marked up and placed for sale by Disney at all. I feel they should have been on permanent display somewhere in the park, but they marked the price up and placed them for sale. Profit first. But this is OK with most of you...nothing immoral/improper here.

Next they make everyone who has in interest in the event pay the $49 for entry instead of an off-site convention room at one of the hotels for free. We all wait in line for hours for the opportunity to purchase "limited edition" products at high prices. $35 for a mug that probably cost $1.35 to produce (no offense to Holden) and limited edition serigraphs.

How many of you would have shown up at 4:00AM and waited for hours if they had only offered a cool open edition poster for $5 and that $10 coffee mug? Limited Supply of some very cool merchandise creates demand. Simple economics. Remember the images of the old Soviet Union grocery stores with the lines of people fighting over the four heads of cabbage brought out each day?

Despite all that I loved every bit of memorabilia available.

If someone is going to be outraged that an object is bought with the intention of resale...you should also indict everyone who has ever bought or sold anything on Ebay. The supply and demand feed upon each other to fuel the prices. No different that the relationship between a drug seller and drug buyer. One cannot exist without the other. To condemn only one party is rediculous.

Don't forget about anyone who waited in line
to have Shag sign their objects. We all know this increases their value. Should these people be thrown under the bus also? What wrong with just waiting to say hello to him only?

Let's have a look at the how fair the system set up for that day really was. You had to be in Anaheim on a specific day...be the first in line at the gates...then be the first in line at the Disneyana store when it opens at 8:00. Shame on me! For the record..we arrived at 5:15 and there were already about 10-12 people there. We quietly sat in front of one of the empty gates and read the paper. There were over 30 turnstiles! You do the math...this does not mean we had to push and shove people out of the way to get up front. I ran when it opened...no pushing or shoving...that is my crime.

Now I place an original up for sale on EBay and everyone in the country who is a Tiki fan has the opportunity to own the same object. Whether you live in New Jersey or Paris...you now have a fair chance to own this. Not be at a specific place at a certain time and hope you get lucky. Seems a lot fairer to me...but I'm the bad guy.

Perhaps if I owned an art gallery and sold it that way...things would be less explosive.

Sorry for my ranting and raving, but I must give my side of the story. Everybody is making a profit on our passions for Tiki. I'm not some coldhearted person. I spend many a Sundays eating at the Kahiki during college...have driven three hours each way to just walk around the Disney Polynesian for a few hours...and scour the thrift store during lunch for tiki finds.

I have no intentions of selling the "Enchanted Tikiroom" original. This is the "holy grail" of Tiki-Shag for myself. (unless an extrememly obscene number is offered.) What the harm in selling Jose to pay for a great weekend and another original?

In regards to the differences in the Original Jose and the online image...the online images are slightly altered for security/tracking of illegal copies.

Peace

This will be my last post concerning this topic! It's nice that Jaxtiki can be a "man" and defend himself with a reply but I still don't buy his tactics. Immediately after the A-Z show you list the D and now you list Jose. You state that "everyone can now have an opportunity to own this same object" however if you truly stand behind what you said then you would offer the original for what you paid!

I'm sure you have received numerous emails regarding this sale but you really didn't help yourself much by advertising on TC your Shag scores. Your prior remark back on August 18th "hold your snickering...they bring good moolah" only reinforces the fact that you buy Shag items only to pad your bank account. Not for the love of the artist.....

Good luck with your auction and I'm sure everyone will see more Shag originals from you on eBay in the future!

[ Edited by: tikichic on 2003-09-25 12:57 ]

When you think it couldn’t get any more pathetic.
Check out this "suspect" copy I found on Ebay. They want a $5000 reserve.
(At least this guy is better lookin than the other.) :)

http://www.audioautographs.com/tiki/Waking_Hanford.htm

A Tiki Cheers To You!

[ Edited by: Unga Bunga on 2003-09-25 14:46 ]

On 2003-09-25 10:18, Jax Tiki wrote:

How many of you would have shown up at 4:00AM and waited for hours if they had only offered a cool open edition poster for $5 and that $10 coffee mug? Limited Supply of some very cool merchandise creates demand. Simple economics.

I wouldn't HAVE to show up at 4:00AM and wait in line for hours if the editions were open. I could go any time, or mail order them or whatever. I still want to buy mugs from the Farm and Munktiki regardless of whether their limited. The deciding factor is whether or not I think it's cool, and what my budget will allow, not if it's limited.

(without restarting the whole "what is cool" thread...please.)

These guys absoutely offend me. They almost seem to gloat about their 'score' at the Disney event. How many old women did they have to push and shove to get to the front of the line?? I'm guessing many.

These two guys were in front of me in the line to get thing signed. I wondered why they were there. It seemed to me that they missed the exit for the golf course. One guy looked like a walking J Crew ad and the other was was wearing a sleeveless argyle sweater. It looked to me like they miss the whole theme of the event. Prep and tiki don't mesh too well. oh well

hey - he said he was keeping the one painting and selling the other one to help pay for it. i think that is reasonable and quite smart.
i wish i had thought of it myself. go man go.

i knew this was going to happen - that some paintings and prints would be sold immediately - why is everyone so shocked and outraged - it's the nature of the art market period.

and please let's not start dissing folks for the clothes they wear - that doesn't serve any of us. you don't know what someone has been through (or what else is in their closet) until you walked a mile in their shoes.

On 2003-09-25 16:06, tikifetish wrote:
How many old women did they have to push and shove to get to the front of the line?? I'm guessing many.

One guy looked like a walking J Crew ad and the other was was wearing a sleeveless argyle sweater. It looked to me like they miss the whole theme of the event. Prep and tiki don't mesh too well. oh well

So that's what those chalk outlines were from...seriously what's up with bashing the way they dress. That shouldnt be an issue. Maybe their Tiki Central uniforms were at the cleaners?

I honestly don't have a problem with this. I know it sucks that the true fans should be the ones to get the work, but thats the nature of supply and demand. If you know someone will pay out there nose for something and you can get it relativley cheap, then why not pick it up and move it and make a profit for moving it. Of course I spent a couple of years selling drugs wehn I was 17-19 and I never had any moral dillema doing that either. All your doing is making a profit for moving something, picking it up here at this price, and moving it there at an inflated price. If someone is willing to give you that money then by all means go for it. What you have to realize is that some people have an addictiove personality. These people will pay anything for whatever there vise is. Honestly all people with addictive personalities are prey. If one predator doesn't prey on them another will. If this person had not bought the painting to resell someone else would have. It's the same thing that drives ticket scalpers who charge 5 to 10 times the price to people who are real fans of the band, it's the same thing that drives art dealers who buy art and resell it to collecters, real estae investors, ect, etc... It's almost a part of nature. Some people are buyers and others are suppliers.

yah s.s.

and actually in the end - a true fan will get the piece because they will be willing to pay top dollar for the item!

now about that pakalolo you said you had...

[ Edited by: Futura Girl on 2003-09-25 18:11 ]

I feel most tiki fans are ethical types, unlike the member selling the original. Considering how many paintings Shag has sold, it's amazing how few have shown up on ebay. The reason is until now true fans of the art, not opportunists, were buying for the pleasure they would derive from owning something they love. But eventually when big bucks can be made, snakes are always lurking in the grass.

And what is wrong with J Crew?????????????
Does a closet full of J Crew clothes make one unworthy of tiki?

And contrary to what someone said earlier, many people do seem to hold tiki in a bizarre and sacred manner.

Saying that someone is unethical because the y resell is kind of a joke though. The largest dealer of low brow art around is Moldy Marvin. Yet I know a few artists whose work is sold by Moldy Marvin taht love him. No matter what wierd way out thing they paint or build, Moldy Marvin can sell it and help them pay bills. He sells everything at at an inflated price and the artist gets half and he gets half. But because of him these artists are paying the bills and getting their work out there. If soimeone is willing to pay 5 grand for a 30's refridgeratoe with a pearl red paint job and a sacred herat painted on it, then that means the artist just got 2,500 for it. Where else were they going to sell somethingt like this. The true fan will pay whatever. I have payed way to much for vintage pin up art and was not pissed about the price, I was happy to get that piece of vintage pin up art. Thats the way it goes.

Besides isn't everyone over Shag yet. Man I really used to dig his work years ago but I have just seen so much of it that the novelty has kind of worn off.

I can't believe "tiki fans" are spending large money on this newly produced stuff when there is so much real, vintage tikiana that isn't "self aware" out there to be bought.. guess that leaves more for me MUUUAAAHAHAHAHA

This is a very interesting forum! I think it is fine to buy a painting from a very hot artist for $4000 and then sell it for $8000. Just remember that those paintings will now all begin to start selling for $8000. Dealers that sell Shag will want to mark up their paintings as much as the Ebayer will. So will Shag. You will also risk losing a lot of the fans since the work is now out of their price range. I buy art of the the Juxtapoz style and also comic book art( geek!) and I personally would not want to show my face to an artist that I just bought art from, sold it two hours ago and now am asking if he or she has anything else to sell. They would tell me to get lost.
Shag is a new twist in Tiki collecting. Its not something old you find at flea markets. Its new,hot and super hip and as the number of collectors grow from hearing that money can be made collecting Tiki items, this Speculating For Profit will ruin everything.

On 2003-09-26 00:31, HubbaHubbaTiki wrote:
... this Speculating For Profit will ruin everything.

not if it helps support all the great tiki carvers on this site!!!