Hawaii Artifact dispute question? NEW UPDATE Page 5

On 2004-06-02 16:21, Tiki_Bong wrote:
Alright, now let's not have any more of this argumentive discussion.

....but I came here for an arguement!

No, you didn't!

lanikai - don't let these mainlanders get to you. We from da islands know more of our islands history - they only get it from what they read. We were nutured with this information from birth.

I think christiki295 is way wrong on the statement about the British. It might be a good idea to take some courses in this area before making this type of statement. I not holdin up for da British - but read on - don't stop at that page.

Na'auao is mea waiwai'ole if not used properly.

http://starbulletin.com/2004/08/11/news/story1.html

http://starbulletin.com/2004/08/11/news/story2.html

[ Edited by: filslash 2008-09-05 13:26 ]

Et tu, Hui Malama I Na Kupuna O Hawaii Nei?

If the allegations are true that this native Hawaiian group is selling these artifacts on the black market, this is yet another native entity that cannot resist the lucrative lure of selling of one's artifacts, Egyptians, Mayans, poachers across all boundaries, and now this, allegedly.

It may be that the Bishop Museum can now skip its sham that it is a native Hawaiian entity and rest upon the following argument:

"DeSoto Brown, a Hawaiian, scholar and collection manager of the museum's archives, was more blunt: "This is why we have museums: to preserve, safeguard, and keep valuable artifacts. Additionally, when artifacts are in museums, others can see them and have access to appropriate levels and learn."

http://starbulletin.com/2004/08/26/news/story2.html

[ Edited by: filslash 2008-09-05 13:26 ]

On 2004-04-15 17:34, Geeky Tiki wrote:

In 1,000 years, if they find some unmarked and forsaken white man graveyard near LA, if I were around then, I'd say, "Fine, let's check it out."

What if the grave is only 200 years old?
Being an atheist myself I rather think about the land that was taken by the missionaries, than about spiritual artifacts. I see those for their cultural aspects, and in this respect they should be displayed in european museums as Picasso paintings in hawaiian ones.

But I haven’t taken the time to read the article yet…
So, I might add more here.

KK

On 2004-08-27 03:49, Kawentzmann wrote:
What if the grave is only 200 years old?

Not to make light of your comment, but perpetual care had better last more than 200 years, particularly at the cost of cemetary real estate.

Have you seen these artifacts?

I have a feeling they have been sold to private collectors.

This Tuesday the judge will rule to open the cave.

We shall see if the items are even there.

Very interesting thread...

As an archaeologist, somewhat specializing in NAGPRA (Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act), it's obvious this is a very complex issue. Some of the questions...

1. Were or are the Forbes Caves on public land?
2. Does the Bishop Museum receive any kind of federal funding?

The law is pretty clear that any human remains, burial goods, sacred items or items of cultural patrimony must be inventoried and offered to the descendant people (if they are a federally recognized tribe, which the Hawai'ian Islanders are) for their discretionary disposition. This law applies to institutions of any kind that receive federal monies.

It seems to me that if the questions above can be answered yes, then any artifacts that fall into the categories above must be returned to the Hawai'ians who claim them. It really doesn't matter how much us scientists and art lovers want to see them stay on display or be available for study.

If the questions can be answered no, then it's a sticky situation for everybody involved. My personal opinion is that the right thing to do is to return the stuff to the people who have a legitimate claim to it - the natives.

By the way, Lanikai - your posts are very well said - thank you!

[ Edited by: amiotiki 2005-12-03 19:44 ]

Yeah thats a good solution give it to the natives.

Considering some 13 groups all claiming the items belong to them and all are native groups, Even Bishop Museum.

First thing that needs to be done is retrieve the items and put them in a safe climate controled environment.

Then let the groups go to court and fight over whats actually left. I have a feeling these items will never be seen again in public. With collectors paying into the 100s of thousands even more for such items on the black market.

Read the whole story here.

[ Edited by: filslash 2008-09-05 13:27 ]

I only wish the items could be displayed at the Bishop Museum, pending the litigants' claims being resolved. It seems a shame to "loan" them to a museum, but not put them on display (even if additional security is required).

Mahalo for the update, Filslash.

After reviewing the article, I agree with the Court, who seems to have taken a practical stance.

Relics will never stay buried. It seems the Court was justifiably concerned about grave robbers taking the arifacts. Tomb/Cave raiding has been going on since ancient Egypt, continues today in Italy and other places and I doubt it would stop now.

Also, the group does not have clean hands and is not a very sympathetic group. It seems their latest ploy is to threaten the tikis themselves, by boobytrapping the cave, so as to risk its collapse by opening it.

However, the most important reason is that after seeing the Akua and other tikis at issue, I want to see them for myself!

(I could care less about the public good - although I do think it would do the public good to see them).

Here.

[ Edited by: filslash 2008-09-05 13:27 ]

There is also an interesting twist. They group that buried the tikis is merely one particular group of 13 claimants.

Other claimants object to this group as suggesting that they speak for all Hawaiians and strongly disapprove of the buring of the tikis.

Read more Here

[ Edited by: filslash 2008-09-17 17:32 ]

I hope the items are displayed at the Bishop Museum, even pending final disposition.

However, I am sympathetic to the perspective of some that the items were initially buried and should be returned to being buried.

Can one bury a replica, or bury the original and display a replica?

However, if the items are reburied, I hope the cave is concurrently sealed, so they stay buried, as opposed to being dug up and sold.

Read the resolution here

[ Edited by: filslash 2008-09-05 13:28 ]

Excellent news.