Is it wrong to not want kids...?

Well, can I show you my pet dog? It appears that this topic is getting a little overheated.
So I myself have no kids. Didnt really want any.
I have a Welch Corgi. Her name is Midge. This is her in my sister's convertable. Shes got a wonderful personality and acts human sometimes. Alot of the local people know of her being the $5,000. dog. Thats how much it cost for surgery so she can still be with us. Car got in her way. :(
Midge seems to know this stardom, hence the shades she's wearing. :lol:

Pride and patience makes work an ART.

[ Edited by: RenTiki on 2004-07-17 06:46 ]

Hey, Rentiki!

Totally awesome and stylish dog with a GREAT name!

The seat covers are tres chic, too!

Minor flames aside, this has been a very interesting topic.

I'd like to thank the childless members for not using the term "breeder" in a derisive manner thus far. :lol:

Since we're pulling out the cute ticket, here's one I took of a friend's pup.

Trader Woody
(Our little cat Chief died last year. Damn.)

On 2004-07-16 20:09, kha_o wrote:
75% of the world's population would eat your pets if they had the chance.

On a polynesian related side note....

This "Hula Ankle Rattle" at the Bishop Museum on Oahu was worn in pairs by male dancers, dog tooth anklets produced sharp, rattling sounds. An average pair might contain the canines of up to 500 dogs.

I love children and TC parents are the best.
But this is why I can't reproduce (as cute as they are).
Meet my "second cousins".

On 2004-07-17 08:16, Geeky Tiki wrote:
I'd like to thank the childless members for not using the term "breeder" in a derisive manner thus far. :lol:

We only use that term for parents who are truly worthy of it. :roll:

Sorry if I might have come off as a jerk in my last post.
I just don't think there is a difference in the love you give/get from a child or a pet. whatever makes you happy, and the other being happy and well cared for.

And Miss Cyn is right, I don't use the term "breeder" unless called for.

Everyone's critters are soooooo dang sweet. I still havent gotten a new one yet. just waiting for the right one to find me.

Hmm, we are getting into politics here, better get back to the cute puppies!

Bad moderator. no cookie.

[ Edited by: tikifish on 2004-07-18 09:24 ]

[ Edited by: tikifish on 2004-07-18 16:55 ]

sweetpea --

there is a HUGE difference in the love one feels for a pet and the love one feels for a child. It is, quite simply, off the charts.

That being said, I've felt more strongly toward some animals than I have for people -- family included. But the love for my own children? Compared to my cat and dog? Not even in the same universe. When my dog or cat dies, I will cry sincere tears. If one of kids die, I will kill myself.

And as for the love an animal feels for you -- well, are we talking about cats or dogs?

seriously, once you have children, you are constantly in a state of horor, hoping no harm shall come to your kids, and it never goes away. Is this the same for pets? I dont have any pets.

When I said a licence to reproduce that is what I meant. I did not say that the government choose who can have kids and who can not. People drive without licences all the time and what happens? They are not banned from driving, they just get a fine and are sent on their way. Like I said before, (I guess a few of you were not paying attention), recommending someone to take a class to become a better parent, how is that a bad thing? Oh wait, stop right there, don't even answer, because then we will get into, "My rights as an American are..."

Thank you TNT. I agree with you 100%

That was a kick-ass post, TNT.

Thanks, TNT. I think that was the most wonderful post I've ever read.

[ Edited by: TNTiki on 2004-11-06 15:03 ]

Great post, TNT.

Much of the Polynesian tiki scene was created with the need to build a fantasy escape from the real world, and many of the posts on Tiki Central are written with that sense of escape from reality. Thanks for sharing a bit of your real world, in such a well constructed, thoughtful message.

All of us have our own private stories of past hardships, or of paths that for some reason we chose not to or were unable to pursue. Sometimes we are able to choose the direction of our future, and at other times our fate is dependent on the whims of the wind.

All in all, I think it is best not to dwell on what could have been, but instead to treasure what is there for you now. (This even works for us single folks like myself, who don't even have any pets.)

Vern

"But friendship is precious, not only in the shade, but in the sunshine of life, and thanks to a benevolent arrangement the greater part of life is sunshine. "

-- Thomas Jefferson

[ Edited by: TNTiki on 2004-11-06 15:04 ]

Fantastic post TNTiki, thank you.

[ Edited by: TNTiki on 2004-11-06 15:04 ]

I really appreciated the post TNTiki. Thanks for making the effort to write your feelings down.

Tntiki-lovely post-well thought out and coming from a perspective that few of can imagine making such decisions.Thanks for being someone who has done a job that must been done,but for the majority would be impossible to do.Hoping you many wonderful things come your way.

I'm still a kid at 38, best I not try to raise one, here are my "kids"

Samson who turned 17 this year relaxing with his favorite Tiki

Alley raising hell, what she does best

Betsy who recentely passed on, God Bless Her

Better shot of the old man

[ Edited by: McDougall on 2004-07-19 10:19 ]

Mahalo TNTiki for sharing, and it is good to know that Bosko (a very cute Wisconsin native I might add) is very lucky to have you two caring for him as his parents.

[ Edited by: TNTiki on 2004-11-06 15:05 ]

[ Edited by: TNTiki on 2004-11-06 15:05 ]

[ Edited by: TNTiki on 2004-11-06 15:05 ]

TNT, I commend you for your work.
I work at a cancer center, and have seen kids going thru chemo and medical proceedures. I could never do it. I'm glad there are folks like you that can! AND DO!!!

I think I figured out where I mucked up in trying to explain myself -note- when I type on weekends, I'm usually a bit on the well, tipsy side... hehehehehehe
Anyhow, I think that I need to not compare the loss of a child to an animal. As I will NOT have children, I will not know what it is like to loose one. SOOOOO therefore at this point in my life, (unmarried, no kids, no significant other,) the worst pain from a loss I felt was my cat, and I think that is quite a pain to suffer, so I think those of us who don't have kids and have animals for aLong time ( I think I spent more time with my cat than most parents spend with their kids, hahahaha) shouldn't be made to feel like we would be ovverreacting in calling our critters our babies. Because for some of us, they are as close as we will ever get.

I'm still not sure if this thread is about pets or childlessness. Either way...

My dog is cuter than your dog/cat/son/gerbil/parrot/daughter/ferret/grandkid/elf/etc

Hansel the UberSchnauzer

And he likes tikis

-Z

[ Edited by: TNTiki on 2004-11-06 15:06 ]

This is my companion until I can afford a Boston Terrier..
Her name is Hula, notice her fine markings, and excellent posture..

And this is the savvy loungester in the making that I am totally in love with and privileged enough to nanny..

I completely agree with the sentiments already shared, I can't wait to have children, but I won't until I am stable enough to give them the upbringing they deserve.. pets too! (And I totally agree that there really is no comparison between the two..) I don't want a dog until I know I have a place they can run around outside, and won't go nuts from being alone inside all day by themselves..
Being able to afford food and the vet bills is also another consideration..
until then, I practice not killing my houseplants..

TNTiki-thank YOU!Sweetpea,it's a perspective thing-of course you're going to be devestated if a beloved pet dies-I remember when my pet parakeet Linus flew out the window,I was inconsolable for weeks.It's a tough thing to have to go through.

Pets aint kids, but don't tell that to my dog Scooter:

Pets can certainly give you unconditional love (well at least dogs can), but can they take care of you in your old age? Pets are like children that never grow up as they will always be dependent upon you as the owner for their well being. I don't have any kids yet, but I can imagine the reward of being a parent is successfully raising a healthy independent child into an adult.

Here are our pups Bean and Frankie. We also have a "human" kid, but I don't want to touch this whole discussion, just post a pic of my puppies.

-vw

TNT - that was beautifully put!

On 2004-07-17 01:42, Atomicchick wrote:
Johntiki, like I said it was food for thought. To compare a positive idea that could possibly help people be better prepared for parenthood to Hitler? You must be a complete loon! Geez, you should really watch what you say, for all you know (or in your case don't know) I could be Jewish, married to a Jew or have Jewish relatives.

What you may consider to be a positive tool to help people prepare for parenthood sounds awfully fascist to me! I'm sure our parents didn't need classes or even books to "teach" them to be parents - parenting for a good portion of society is instinctual and natural. To require people to do things that some people perceive as "helping society" is insulting! A policy like this could potentially lay the groundwork for further policies restricting people's ability to live their lives without governmental involvement!

As for the reference to Hitler...if a tongue in cheek comment equating an idea I feel is fascist to history's most reviled fascist dictator insults you, then it obviously went over your head. I believe any reasonable person (Jewish or Gentile!) would understand my comparison.

Finally as for you referring to me as a "Loon" - that's a title I will wear with pride - just check out my new signature! :)

JohnTiki

Aloha from the enchanted Pi Yi Grotto the Looniest Tiki Bar in Bel Air Maryland!

[ Edited by: johntiki on 2004-07-20 13:11 ]

I enjoyed taking some classes with my wife before baby number one.

We took a class on breast feeding because my wife's mom was from an era of bottle feeding and we really didn't know what to expect for the best way to pump, freeze, do proper nipple care, etc.

It sounds dopey, but we enjoyed the time together and learned about feeding intervals and nutrition for her, safe vitamins, all sorts of things. It made the actual arrival less stressful.

We also took a "get ready to deliver class" that was reassuring to her.

I'm chuckling as I type this 'cause it sounds so dumb-yuppy-guy, but I bet if enough people were offered the chance or had their OB's make it part of the process, we'd have alot fewer people showing up for care for the first time as they are delivering.

I'm not saying we should force anybody, but creating an expectation of preparedness on the part of society may go a long way to helping people cope and do a better job.

I don't know if there is one, but an organization that helps parents organize their home and get their shit together the first week a baby comes home would help many people. Maybe there are some already, but I'd vote to make it higher profile. I think much of the baby abuse/ child abuse in this world comes from not knowing how to cope with these rather stressful creatures.

Rocky and Lily, Mothra's favorite barflies

[ Edited by: TNTiki on 2004-11-06 15:06 ]

[ Edited by: TNTiki on 2004-11-06 15:06 ]

People should think of preparing for childbirth like training for a marathon. You can never be too prepared. (Start getting in shape and learn everything you can about nutrition even before you get pregnant.)

I prefer to be the eccentric aunt (in the words of my niece, "Why doesn't she go to the mall and buy some new clothes?") and Atomic enjoys being the uncle that comes to his brother's house and gets the kids really wound up and hyper, then hands them back to the parents once they are bouncing off the walls.

Atomic sounds like my Bro...makes my wife CRAZY!

[ Edited by: Bamboo Dude on 2004-07-20 22:15 ]

I'd like to bring up a simple point. Pets such as cats and dogs and children differ simply in that pets--although they are not literally a part of you, created from your own flesh as your human children are--are capable of something most people of any age find difficult if not impossible...unconditional love.

And we all need that, hm?

Therefore, I feel that it's great to have both, for your child's sake and your own.

My testimonial: I remember all too well as a little kid when my dad was mad at me I'd go hug my kitty Jeremy and tell him my troubles. He'd always listen to me and lick my fact and purr and I would feel so much better. I know too that my dad got much the same kind of comfort from Jeremy when I was being a brat and saying lovely kid things like "I hate you, Daddy!"

Jeremy enriched both our lives.

For those who are not interested in having kids, animals provide particularly important companionship and love throughout life. For those with kids, the lessons animals can teach about unconditional love and trust are invaluable for both parents and kids. (And they teach responsibility too, I might add...if you can't even care for your cat, you'd better think twice about that baby!)

This leads me to another thought: dogs ARE more like kids than cats. They need more from you, and so, as posters above have observed, dogs manifest negative/abusive/neglectful parenting in their behavior just as kids do. Hence, seeing if you can make time for a dog in your life might be a good way of working up to a kid for those who have doubts about the subject. :wink:

John, I don't think taking classes and educating yourself about childbirth and childrearing before you have kids is a bad idea! I don't know about requiring it legally, but I do think that since we as a society have seen such an erosion of the supportive family structure in recent generations, creating that kind of environment through other means is very positive indeed.

I've had several friends give birth for the first time in their thirties, and the worst thing for them was feeling so alone in it--hubby off at work, many friends childless, other friends who do have kids living far away, working themselves, whatever, no mom or aunts or sisters nearby to help and teach. Sheer loneliness a lot of the time (no matter how much you love your kids, they are not the greatest conversationalists for quite a few years!) until they learned to network with other moms in the same boat.

And, I might add, those friends of mine are all very glad they did so much research beforehand. I sure as heck will if my time ever comes.

One last thought: someone above said they'd never heard anyone with kids compare the loss of a pet to the loss of a child. That statement is meaningless to me. My friend Erica, for example, loves her animals and her child with equal intensity, but recognizes that they're just inherently different kinds of loves.

In other words, I wouldn't use the word "compare". The point is, love is love. There's no need to play "my love is better than your love." There are parents out there who hate their kids, and pet owners who would die for their animals. To each his own; but what I love equally to see is a good, responsible parent raising their child with love and attention and respect, and a good, responsible pet owner wholeheartedly returning the unconditional love and loyalty their critter gives them.

This is a fascinating and worthwhile thread. Thanks so much to everyone who's contributed.

Lisa aka tikivixen

On 2004-07-26 14:28, tikivixen wrote:

One last thought: someone above said they'd never heard anyone with kids compare the loss of a pet to the loss of a child. That statement is meaningless to me. My friend Erica, for example, loves her animals and her child with equal intensity, but recognizes that they're just inherently different kinds of loves.

In other words, I wouldn't use the word "compare". The point is, love is love. ..

                 Lisa aka tikivixen  

I think pets can be excellent, loyal, and loving companions, no doubt at all. My cats mean the world to me. I have spent over $5,000 on one cat alone with his health issues. BUT in no way compare to the love I have for my son.

I made that statement and I stand by it. As have a few others that posted.

I have yet to EVER hear ANYONE EVER say they felt worse when their dog died, than their child. This statement is always made by someone who hasn't had a child. You don't have a child, you wouldn't understand.

PS If someone here has children and sincerely would feel worse if their pet died than if their child died, please say so.

[ Edited by: suzywong on 2004-07-26 19:54 ]

"PS If someone here has children and sincerely would feel worse if their pet died than if their child died, please say so."

And if you say it is the same, PLEASE write your address so I can send child services over right away, because you don't deserve the ultimate joy of having children!!

Gee whillikers. I see why some people never post here anymore.

heading for more kind and respectful grounds,

tikivixen

Hard topic to keep frendly about. Both sides have a rooting interest in the logic of thier own choices made or not made, to reinforce thier own descison. It's of couse a very personal choice, maybe best decided in an actual bar, rather than online.

Mrs Gigantalope and I have no offspring except a leghupming used hound and two cockatiels. from her perspective, she gets more ridicule than I do...on the other hand, this allows her to perform theater when she wishes.

I always sugest part time work as a substitute teacher...it will either test your metal for children, or be the most effective birth control ever.

good luck

Moderators can't moderate what I took out.

[ Edited by: Chip and Andy 2009-02-23 10:20 ]