Post #287814 by tiki mick on Fri, Feb 23, 2007 9:11 PM

Hodahank, I think your fake links were equally as funny and insightful as were mine, and I salute you! (especially the Vespa VS lambretta)

BUT, I must respectfully disagree with you, while also letting you know that I DO respect you and your opinions. You present a good argument, with well- thought out examples and references. I feel you believe what you are saying, and that your opinion is educated.

In my humble opinion, I feel that Jerry Garcia and musicians like him do an awful lot of mindless noodling around on thier guitars. They lack the full understanding of chromaticism, modalism and advanced harmonic and chord theory. Ornette Coleman and John Coltrane are in a class far, far ahead of deadheads. I am sorry, but that is a plain fact. Musicians like Trane and ornette coleman were professionals, that honed thier talent starting in big bands, reading charts, playing standards and learning theory. Then, they took what they learned to a higher level, and developed bop, post bop, free jazz and other offshoots of basic trad jazz.

There just is no comparison. And the fact that they have played with people like Zakir Hussein means not too much. Listen to Zakir Hussien with John mclaughlin and Shakti. This is music that is not derivative, or influenced, but actually IS!

I happen to feel that whenever these hippy musicians land on the albums of true musicians, there is always that patronizing, "only a white man can rescue this music" element. it's like Bwana has to lead the natives, because without them, they are nothing. I happen to like Ry cooder and David Byrne a lot, but they are equally guilty of this. You may call it collaboration, I call it medling. And please don't say that martin Denny did this too. He didn;t. His stuff was obviously kitsch, and not meant to be taken all that seriously, though he was a serious jazz musician himself.

Hippies should stick to what they know, which is: Dirty, tie-died shirts, amatuer musicality influenced by extensive drug use and trust funds from thier rich grandparents.

Are there exceptions, in my opinion? of course there are. But I am not as uneducated as you may think. I have listened to enough grateful dead to know thier style well. I listened, because people always tried to convince me how great the deadheads were, usually by citing people of the jazz and world music scene that played with them. I tried to keep an open mind, but in the end remain unconvinced.

There is no comparison between David Grisman and Garcia. David Grisman is a jazz and newgrass musician, Jerry Garcia is a folk musician and rock musician, with a lot of pretensions. Is he an ok guitar player? Sure he is. Obviously better then the average punk guitarist, but I would rather listen to the dead kennedys then the grateful dead, phish, or any other jam band.

I laugh when I read that Jourma Karkomen was a jazz guitarist. I listen to surreal Pillow, and just don't hear it. I don't hear that musicality that real musicians have, deep in thier souls.

I hear music that I can only appreciate if I was high as a kite. But when I come down, I would rather hear Neal Hefti or Cole Porter tunes. Stuff with strong melodies, real musicianship.

These are my opinions. I am sure there are other musicians that feel the same way. Perhaps many that don't. It all boils down to whether you like a song, or not. I respect your opinion, but have to agree to disagree with you on this one.

PS, Garcia played on one track on the ornette coleman album you showed a picture of, and his parts seem to clash with what the rest of the band is doing. I know, I have it.

[ Edited by: lucas vigor 2007-02-23 21:16 ]