tiki trader trickery - General Tiki

S Sneakytiki Tiki Socialite Boise, Idaho Joined: Mar 31, 2003 Posts: 1795	S Sneakytiki Posted posted on Sat, Mar 24, 2007 9:24 PM On 2006-08-21 13:32, tikibars wrote: On 2006-07-19 00:52, Sneakytiki wrote: Rattiki, "tiki" IS a word of Polynesian origins and is used among the Marquesans and New Zealanders among others, Hawaii is a more recently settled island and though Hawaiians speak a Polynesian tongue related to the others, they lost the "t" consonant, often replacing it with a "k" sound, thus Tapa in Fiji and Polynesia became "kapa" in Hawaii and Tiki became "ki'i", which is close to kiki, which is what you'd expect it to be with the k replaces t rule, whew! Hope that clears up something for somebody, even if that something is only that I am a nerd! My understanding has always been: The glottal stop (written as an apostrophe) in Hawaiian, is a 'k' sound in Tahitian / Maori / RapaNui. The 'k' sound in Hawaiian, is a 't' sound Tahitian / Maori / RapaNui. Tiki in Tahitian / Maori / RapaNui therefore becomes Ki'i in Hawaiian. 'Tahiti' in Tahitian / Maori / RapaNui becomes 'Kahiki' in Hawaiian! Here is a confirmation that my assertion of Ki'i being the Hawaiian name for Tiki is correct: Ki'i From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia In Hawaiian mythology, Ki'i is a creator god. In some other Polynesian languages, the name appears as Tiki. In M?ori mythology, Tiki is the first man. In traditions from the East Coast of the North Island, the first human is a woman created by T?ne, god of forests. Usually her name is Hine-ahu-one. In other legends, T?ne makes the first man Tiki, and then makes a wife for him. In some West Coast versions, Tiki himself, as a son of Rangi and Papa, creates the first human by mixing his own blood with clay, and T?ne then makes the first woman. Sometimes T?matauenga, the war god, creates Tiki.[1] In another story the first woman is M?rikoriko. Tiki marries her and their daughter is Hine-kau-ataata (White 1887-1891, I:151-152). [2] In some traditions, Tiki is the penis of T?ne (Orbell 1998:178, Tregear 1891:510-511). In fact, Tiki is strongly associated with the origin of the procreative act.[3] Here is one story of Tiki among the many variants: Tiki was lonely and craved company. One day, seeing his reflection in a pool, he thought he had found a companion, and dived into the pool to seize it. The image shattered and Tiki was disappointed. He fell asleep and when he awoke he saw the reflection again . He covered the pool with earth and it gave birth to a woman. Tiki lived with her in innocence, until one day the woman was excited by an eel. Her excitement passed to Tiki and the first procreative act resulted (Reed 1963:52). In M?ori usage, the word 'tiki' is also the name given to large wooden carvings in roughly human shape. -The term tiki bars has quoted "Kahiki", follows the same "k" replaces "t" rule, Kahiki is the Hawaiian name for a place called Tahiti, from which the second wave of Hawaiian migration came from. You can see that K replaces T, just as I said. The same proves true with Kapa replacing the T in tapa. As far as glottal stops go, they are never pronounced with a k sound or any other consonant type sound in any language, that is why it's a glottal "stop". They are usually very subtle vowel-ish pauses in mid-word. The Tahitian glottal stop is NOT a "K" sound but a very subtle, easily missed uh-uh type sound. A word in Tahitian with a glottal stop does not mean the same word in Hawaiian will have one. Here is the Tahitian alphabet with proof that their glottal stop is not pronounced as a K sound but as a subtle uh-uh: Tahitian Alphabet Typologically, Tahitian word order is VSO (Verb-Subject-Object), which is typical of Polynesian languages. It also features a very small number of phonemes, as further evidence of its linguistic heritage: five vowels and eight consonants not counting the lengthened vowels, diphthongs and the glottal stop. letter name pronunciation notes IPA English approximation French approximation a ’? [a], [??] a: butter, ?: father a: patte, ?: pâte e ’? [e], [e?] e: late, ?: same but longer e: été, ?: il bée f f? [f] friend as in French becomes bilabial [?] after o and u h h? [h] house - becomes [?] of shoe after i and before o or u i ’? [i], [i?] as in machine either shorter i or longer ? i: vite, ?: cîme may become diphthong ai in some words like rahi m m? [m] mouse as in French n n? [n] nap as in French o ’? [?], [o?] o: not, ?: go o: roc, ?: pôle the short o more like (French) eau if not accentuated p p? [p] spunge (not aspirated) as in French r r? [r] - - the rolled 'r' of Scottish and Spanish t t? [t] stand (not aspirated) as in French u ’? [u], [u?] u: foot, ?: moo u: cou, ?: moue strong lip rounding v v? [v] vine as in French becomes bilabial after o and u ’ ’eta [?] uh-uh ils hachent (without liaison) the GLOTTAL STOP ************************************************************************************************************************* The glottal stop or ’eta is a genuine consonant. The missing second K in the Hawai'ian Ki'i, is replaced by a glottal stop. Once again the example of Tiki turns to Ki'i, the glottal stop is not a cognate to a "K" sound in Tahitian. Actually the T sound in Tahitian is very similar to the k sound in Hawaiian, the T sound in Tahiti is very soft approaching a k already. The glottal stop ki'i (Hawaiian) is just an example of phonetic loss or deterioration. Here it is explained, I put astericks in front of the most pertinent info: Art. LXIV.—The Track of a Word. By E. Tregear, F.R.G.S. [Read before the Wellington Philosophical Society, 4th August, 1886.] In seeking to attract attention to the immense geographical district over which a word may be in use, and to the very great periods of time during which a word must necessarily have existed, I would confine myself mainly to a record of the facts concerning it collected by modern science, and leave for discussion the points arising from such record. The word I propose to examine is the Maori noun mata, which means “the eye,” or “face.” This word has been often commented upon as one which maintained itself most purely and with little phonetic variation among the dialects spoken in Polynesia; but I believe that the full significance of its very extraordinary diffusion over a large area of the world's surface has not been sufficiently observed or commented on. We will now, with the aid of a map, pass along a track where this word, sometimes in a form exceedingly pure, sometimes corrupted almost beyond recognition, may be found in the spoken languages of mankind at the present moment. Leaving New Zealand and moving to the northward, we arrive at the Fijian Group, the natives of which, although not Polynesians, retain in their language many Polynesian words, and these in great purity. Here we find it mata, as in Maori; thence journeying eastward to Samoa, it is mata; at Rarotonga and Mangaia (Cook's and Hervey Islands), it is mata; at Tahiti (Society Islands), mata; at Nukuhiva (Marquesas Islands), mata; at Easter Island, mata; at Hawaii (Sandwich Islands), mata. This course has passed through the principal Polynesian islands, and before proceeding further I must digress for a brief space to notice the dialectical change producing the variant k of the Hawaiian. The change from t to k seems at first sight to be peculiar, and to those who have not made the transference of sounds a specialty of study appears almost impossible. But it is by no means confined to the Polynesian; in many languages far more advanced this letter-change occurs: in the Latin, Basculi and Bastuli, Vectones and Vettones; in Danish, mukke, for English “to mutter,” and laktuk (Latin lactuca), for English “lettuce;” in Greek we find the Doric makes ??â for ???, ???o03C2 for ????03C2; the modern French of low-class Canadians gives mékier for métier, moikié for moitié, according to Professor Max Müller,* on whose choice of this word mata as a text I shall have much to say at a future time; but here it is only necessary- -to remark that in Polynesian the t to k transfer is exceedingly well marked, and that it is, even now, changing and spoiling the Samoan vernacular speech. The real k of the western dialects is, in Hawaiian, Tahitian, and Samoan, either lost altogether, or replaced by a kind of soft catch of the breath; the k which appears in the Hawaiian being the Maori and Tongan t. Thus, the Hawaiian kai is the Maori tai, the sea; the Maori kai, food, being represented by the Hawaiian ai. The Hawaiian kii, a carved image, is the Maori tiki, the medial k being lost, the t replaced by k. I hope this settles the manner. I wasn't giving out bogus info. to anyone. I've studied Polynesia fairly extensively. Please take no offense at my re-correction. Thanks again, ST [ Edited by: Sneakytiki 2007-03-24 21:53 ]

On 2006-08-21 13:32, tikibars wrote:

On 2006-07-19 00:52, Sneakytiki wrote:
Rattiki, "tiki" IS a word of Polynesian origins and is used among the Marquesans and New Zealanders among others, Hawaii is a more recently settled island and though Hawaiians speak a Polynesian tongue related to the others, they lost the "t" consonant, often replacing it with a "k" sound, thus Tapa in Fiji and Polynesia became "kapa" in Hawaii and Tiki became "ki'i", which is close to kiki, which is what you'd expect it to be with the k replaces t rule, whew! Hope that clears up something for somebody, even if that something is only that I am a nerd!

My understanding has always been:

The glottal stop (written as an apostrophe) in Hawaiian, is a 'k' sound in Tahitian / Maori / RapaNui.

The 'k' sound in Hawaiian, is a 't' sound Tahitian / Maori / RapaNui.

Tiki in Tahitian / Maori / RapaNui therefore becomes Ki'i in Hawaiian.

'Tahiti' in Tahitian / Maori / RapaNui becomes 'Kahiki' in Hawaiian!

Here is a confirmation that my assertion of Ki'i being the Hawaiian name for Tiki is correct:

Ki'i
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
In Hawaiian mythology, Ki'i is a creator god. In some other Polynesian languages, the name appears as Tiki.
In M?ori mythology, Tiki is the first man. In traditions from the East Coast of the North Island, the first human is a woman created by T?ne, god of forests. Usually her name is Hine-ahu-one. In other legends, T?ne makes the first man Tiki, and then makes a wife for him. In some West Coast versions, Tiki himself, as a son of Rangi and Papa, creates the first human by mixing his own blood with clay, and T?ne then makes the first woman. Sometimes T?matauenga, the war god, creates Tiki.[1] In another story the first woman is M?rikoriko. Tiki marries her and their daughter is Hine-kau-ataata (White 1887-1891, I:151-152). [2] In some traditions, Tiki is the penis of T?ne (Orbell 1998:178, Tregear 1891:510-511). In fact, Tiki is strongly associated with the origin of the procreative act.[3]
Here is one story of Tiki among the many variants:
Tiki was lonely and craved company. One day, seeing his reflection in a pool, he thought he had found a companion, and dived into the pool to seize it. The image shattered and Tiki was disappointed. He fell asleep and when he awoke he saw the reflection again . He covered the pool with earth and it gave birth to a woman. Tiki lived with her in innocence, until one day the woman was excited by an eel. Her excitement passed to Tiki and the first procreative act resulted (Reed 1963:52).
In M?ori usage, the word 'tiki' is also the name given to large wooden carvings in roughly human shape.

-The term tiki bars has quoted "Kahiki", follows the same "k" replaces "t" rule, Kahiki is the Hawaiian name for a place called Tahiti, from which the second wave of Hawaiian migration came from. You can see that K replaces T, just as I said. The same proves true with Kapa replacing the T in tapa.

As far as glottal stops go, they are never pronounced with a k sound or any other consonant type sound in any language, that is why it's a glottal "stop". They are usually very subtle vowel-ish pauses in mid-word. The Tahitian glottal stop is NOT a "K" sound but a very subtle, easily missed uh-uh type sound. A word in Tahitian with a glottal stop does not mean the same word in Hawaiian will have one. Here is the Tahitian alphabet with proof that their glottal stop is not pronounced as a K sound but as a subtle uh-uh:

Tahitian Alphabet

Typologically, Tahitian word order is VSO (Verb-Subject-Object), which is typical of Polynesian languages. It also features a very small number of phonemes, as further evidence of its linguistic heritage: five vowels and eight consonants not counting the lengthened vowels, diphthongs and the glottal stop.
letter name pronunciation notes
IPA English
approximation French
approximation
a ’? [a], [??] a: butter, ?: father a: patte, ?: pâte
e ’? [e], [e?] e: late, ?: same but longer e: été, ?: il bée
f f? [f] friend as in French becomes bilabial [?] after o and u
h h? [h] house - becomes [?] of shoe after i and before o or u
i ’? [i], [i?] as in machine
either shorter i or longer ? i: vite, ?: cîme may become diphthong ai in some words like rahi
m m? [m] mouse as in French
n n? [n] nap as in French
o ’? [?], [o?] o: not, ?: go o: roc, ?: pôle the short o more like (French) eau if not accentuated
p p? [p] spunge (not aspirated) as in French
r r? [r] - - the rolled 'r' of Scottish and Spanish
t t? [t] stand (not aspirated) as in French
u ’? [u], [u?] u: foot, ?: moo u: cou, ?: moue strong lip rounding
v v? [v] vine as in French becomes bilabial after o and u
’ ’eta [?] uh-uh ils hachent (without liaison) the GLOTTAL STOP *************************************************************************************************************************
The glottal stop or ’eta is a genuine consonant.

The missing second K in the Hawai'ian Ki'i, is replaced by a glottal stop. Once again the example of Tiki turns to Ki'i, the glottal stop is not a cognate to a "K" sound in Tahitian. Actually the T sound in Tahitian is very similar to the k sound in Hawaiian, the T sound in Tahiti is very soft approaching a k already. The glottal stop ki'i (Hawaiian) is just an example of phonetic loss or deterioration. Here it is explained, I put astericks in front of the most pertinent info:

Art. LXIV.—The Track of a Word.
By E. Tregear, F.R.G.S.

[Read before the Wellington Philosophical Society, 4th August, 1886.]

In seeking to attract attention to the immense geographical district over which a word may be in use, and to the very great periods of time during which a word must necessarily have existed, I would confine myself mainly to a record of the facts concerning it collected by modern science, and leave for discussion the points arising from such record. The word I propose to examine is the Maori noun mata, which means “the eye,” or “face.” This word has been often commented upon as one which maintained itself most purely and with little phonetic variation among the dialects spoken in Polynesia; but I believe that the full significance of its very extraordinary diffusion over a large area of the world's surface has not been sufficiently observed or commented on. We will now, with the aid of a map, pass along a track where this word, sometimes in a form exceedingly pure, sometimes corrupted almost beyond recognition, may be found in the spoken languages of mankind at the present moment.

Leaving New Zealand and moving to the northward, we arrive at the Fijian Group, the natives of which, although not Polynesians, retain in their language many Polynesian words, and these in great purity. Here we find it mata, as in Maori; thence journeying eastward to Samoa, it is mata; at Rarotonga and Mangaia (Cook's and Hervey Islands), it is mata; at Tahiti (Society Islands), mata; at Nukuhiva (Marquesas Islands), mata; at Easter Island, mata; at Hawaii (Sandwich Islands), mata. This course has passed through the principal Polynesian islands, and before proceeding further I must digress for a brief space to notice the dialectical change producing the variant k of the Hawaiian. The change from t to k seems at first sight to be peculiar, and to those who have not made the transference of sounds a specialty of study appears almost impossible. But it is by no means confined to the Polynesian; in many languages far more advanced this letter-change occurs: in the Latin, Basculi and Bastuli, Vectones and Vettones; in Danish, mukke, for English “to mutter,” and laktuk (Latin lactuca), for English “lettuce;” in Greek we find the Doric makes ??â for ???, ???o03C2 for ????03C2; the modern French of low-class Canadians gives mékier for métier, moikié for moitié, according to Professor Max Müller,* on whose choice of this word mata as a text I shall have much to say at a future time; but here it is only necessary-

-to remark that in Polynesian the t to k transfer is exceedingly well marked, and that it is, even now, changing and spoiling the Samoan vernacular speech. The real k of the western dialects is, in Hawaiian, Tahitian, and Samoan, either lost altogether, or replaced by a kind of soft catch of the breath; the k which appears in the Hawaiian being the Maori and Tongan t. Thus, the Hawaiian kai is the Maori tai, the sea; the Maori kai, food, being represented by the Hawaiian ai. The Hawaiian kii, a carved image, is the Maori tiki, the medial k being lost, the t replaced by k.

I hope this settles the manner. I wasn't giving out bogus info. to anyone. I've studied Polynesia fairly extensively. Please take no offense at my re-correction.
Thanks again,
ST

[ Edited by: Sneakytiki 2007-03-24 21:53 ]

Post #294356 by Sneakytiki on Sat, Mar 24, 2007 9:24 PM