The Film Noir Thread - Beyond Tiki

J JOHN-O Tiki Socialite Dogtown, USA Joined: May 16, 2008 Posts: 2721	J JOHN-O Posted posted on Sun, Jan 31, 2010 3:38 PM On 2010-01-29 21:54, khan_tiki_mon wrote: Can you have a noir character in a non noir film? The film "The Sand Pebbles" is not film noir but the Steve McQueen character is just so tragic and no matter what he does he's doomed. To me that's kind of a noirish character. It's interesting, just as classic Film Noir followed the decades of the Great Depression and WWII, we got a whole slew of "unhappy ending" movies with their own doomed protagonists during the time of the Vietnam War and Watergate. Not Film Noir per se in terms of visual style but definitely sharing the same cynical attitude. Here's some examples: Sand Pebbles - Even though the film is about a U.S. Navy gunboat patrolling the rivers of 1920's China, it was seen as a statement of U.S. involvement in Vietnam. It was pretty prophetic for 1966. Steve McQueen's last dying words are "I was home... What happened? What the hell happened?!" (On a side note, my uncle was an extra in the film. He played a kitchen coolie.) Bonnie and Clyde - The 1960's version of "They Live by Night" with doomed lovers meeting their final fate. Easy Rider - Wyatt and Billy's search for America (financed by a coke score for Phil Spector !!) ends with them getting blown away by 2 rednecks in a pick-up truck. Mean Streets - Forget "Goodfellas","Casino", and "The Gangs of New York", this was Martin Scorsese's true mob masterpiece. The Conversation - As previously noted by TikiHardBop. On 2010-01-29 22:41, Atomic Tiki Punk wrote: Since you reference the movie "Sin City" and refer back to Frank Miller's original comic series Miller himself refers to it being a Hard-boiled influenced fiction along the lines of Dashiell Hammett with graphic violence & sex. Dashiell Hammett ?? !! In Frank Miller's dreams. I'd say it was closer to the writing of Mickey Spillane. Frank Miller was at the top of his game in the 1980's but lately I think he's turned into a hack. He single-handedly destroyed the reputation of Will Eisner's "Spirit" character with that shitty movie. On 2010-01-30 08:19, TikiHardBop wrote: ....I think many people put films in the Noir genre that more properly belong in the Hard-boiled category. ....Which is why I usually put most films featuring any kind of detective or PI in the hard-boiled category rather than noir. Interesting point. I'll bet you're more of a fan of late 1940's Noir vs. 1950's Noir. I'll wager that "Detour","Scarlet Street","Nightmare Alley","Out of the Past", and "Criss Cross" are high on your list. They all feature doomed characters led astray by femme fatales (although "Nightmare Alley copped out with a semi-happy ending.) Actually I consider Hard-boiled as more of a sub-genre of Noir rather than as a separate category. I follow your point but I can't see films based on Raymond Chandler's writings (i.e. P.I. Phillip Marlowe) falling outside of Noir.

On 2010-01-29 21:54, khan_tiki_mon wrote:

Can you have a noir character in a non noir film? The film "The Sand Pebbles" is not film noir but the Steve McQueen character is just so tragic and no matter what he does he's doomed. To me that's kind of a noirish character.

It's interesting, just as classic Film Noir followed the decades of the Great Depression and WWII, we got a whole slew of "unhappy ending" movies with their own doomed protagonists during the time of the Vietnam War and Watergate. Not Film Noir per se in terms of visual style but definitely sharing the same cynical attitude.

Here's some examples:

Sand Pebbles - Even though the film is about a U.S. Navy gunboat patrolling the rivers of 1920's China, it was seen as a statement of U.S. involvement in Vietnam. It was pretty prophetic for 1966. Steve McQueen's last dying words are "I was home... What happened? What the hell happened?!" (On a side note, my uncle was an extra in the film. He played a kitchen coolie.)
Bonnie and Clyde - The 1960's version of "They Live by Night" with doomed lovers meeting their final fate.
Easy Rider - Wyatt and Billy's search for America (financed by a coke score for Phil Spector !!) ends with them getting blown away by 2 rednecks in a pick-up truck.
Mean Streets - Forget "Goodfellas","Casino", and "The Gangs of New York", this was Martin Scorsese's true mob masterpiece.
The Conversation - As previously noted by TikiHardBop.

On 2010-01-29 22:41, Atomic Tiki Punk wrote:

Since you reference the movie "Sin City" and refer back to Frank Miller's original comic series
Miller himself refers to it being a Hard-boiled influenced fiction along the lines of Dashiell Hammett
with graphic violence & sex.

Dashiell Hammett ?? !! In Frank Miller's dreams. I'd say it was closer to the writing of Mickey Spillane.

Frank Miller was at the top of his game in the 1980's but lately I think he's turned into a hack. He single-handedly destroyed the reputation of Will Eisner's "Spirit" character with that shitty movie.

On 2010-01-30 08:19, TikiHardBop wrote:

....I think many people put films in the Noir genre that more properly belong in the Hard-boiled category.

....Which is why I usually put most films featuring any kind of detective or PI in the hard-boiled category rather than noir.

Interesting point. I'll bet you're more of a fan of late 1940's Noir vs. 1950's Noir. I'll wager that "Detour","Scarlet Street","Nightmare Alley","Out of the Past", and "Criss Cross" are high on your list. They all feature doomed characters led astray by femme fatales (although "Nightmare Alley copped out with a semi-happy ending.)

Actually I consider Hard-boiled as more of a sub-genre of Noir rather than as a separate category. I follow your point but I can't see films based on Raymond Chandler's writings (i.e. P.I. Phillip Marlowe) falling outside of Noir.

Post #508182 by JOHN-O on Sun, Jan 31, 2010 3:38 PM