Post #508487 by TikiHardBop on Tue, Feb 2, 2010 7:33 AM

ATP: Thanks for the synopsis on hard-boiled pre-dating noir. For once, I refrained from going there. Being an engineer with a scientific background, I have a bad habit of wanting to put everything in its full context. If you ask me if the sun is shining, I tend to say "Well, we're going to have to go all the way back to the Civil War..."

John-O has a good point with the tiki analogy. Just because a bar has tiki torches and bamboo doesn't mean it's a classic tiki bar. I tend to look at films the same way -- just because it has noir elements doesn't mean that it's true noir. Most films people mention as "neo-noir" have elements of noir, mostly in visual style, but they don't fit the classic definition. For example, a common theme of Hitchcock's was the average, innocent man getting involved in the machinations of amoral characters. Although certainly a characteristic of noir, his films don't follow the classic noir pattern and are known as thrillers or psychological thrillers rather than noir.

Combining those two thoughts, film noir and Hitchcock have become so part of the "language" of film that it's probably impossible to even tell a morally dark story without referencing either one.

And I said "most" films with a PI or detective don't fit classic noir, not all. John-O's mention of the classic "Out of the Past" is a perfect example of a true film noir that features a PI.

And I have a hard time imagining "The Matrix" being noir. Actually, it's probably anti-noir. Neo (Greek for "new") is a classic savior character bringing order and morality back to a chaotic and immoral universe.

In the end, it (hard-)boils down to a case of battling definitions. Some people have a more strict definition than others. If Busby Berkley or "The Wizard of Oz" fits your definition of noir, go crazy.