Why Destroy Tiki Palaces? - General Tiki

C Cammo Member San Diego Joined: May 18, 2006 Posts: 2041	C Cammo Posted posted on Tue, Mar 8, 2011 5:35 PM A lot of issues came up during the main run of this thread. I really didn’t expect it to get much notice, it was really designed as a tiny thread to just joke back and forth with MadDogMike, but man the TCers are quite a cerebral bunch and you folks should really be proud of yourselves. Here’s the thing - what has happened to Tiki Palaces is scary, and according to the quotes below the direction our society is going in is even scarier. Comparing 1955 to 2011 is bound to be both divisive and illuminating no matter what the subject… Anyway, here are the Hall of Fame Ultimate Quotes. All of these are to me essentially correct, and interesting as hell. JeffBigTikiDude: (maybe the ultimate winner) “I think that the answer is the Owners/Managers Have their heads up their collective asses.” “…and the More I think about it. the General Public has their heads up their asses, and doesn't get Poly Pop/Tiki.” BigBrotiki: (right on) “Many folks equate anything vintage with 'dirty'. Not desirable for restaurants OR apartment buildings.” Chip & Andy: (Great run-on stream of consciousness sentence, and anything with the words ‘Cranberry Accents’ is a winner) “You have marketing and design departments full of ideas presenting their ideas to some middle level of management who put their two cents into the design before they give it to the next higher level of management who add their two cents and by the time it reaches the people who can say yes the idea has been flattened and homogenized so much as there is no character left but the top level management thinks its a good idea because they pay their marketing and design departments big bucks so they must know what they are doing when presenting this bland beige and dusty rose with cranberry accents plan.” ” …but, what is missing in most of today's 'Management' is Love.” ” Become cheerleaders for your local tiki bars and get people to go to them, show them how cool they are so they in turn bring others, and so on.” “The bigger a company gets, the closer it gets to becoming a Corporation. The more Corporate it becomes the more it needs to make money to maintain its growth and eventually reaches a point where making money is the only goal.” Mongoloid (interesting point, and interesting that the primary rule here on TC is that we cannot discuss religion, when we are talking about Tikis. I’ve always found it ridiculous and screamingly ethno-centric) “The first thing that came to mind is that people can confuse tiki and consider and interperate it as a religious symbol and that by removing all tikis the hotel feels they will not be conflicting with someones beliefs and religion.” Hakalugi: “From a hotel restaurant perspective, and one that is somewhat isolated from other walking distance restaurants, the potential clientele is the people lodging at the hotel. The bean counter thinks he has a captive audience. Ideally the restaurant will move as many customers through the restaurant as fast as possible to maximize income. Any fancy decor or relaxing atmosphere only causes the diners to take their time, thus reducing the turnaround. Get rid of the great atmosphere and your diners per hour goes up! Flawed in almost every respect...” Aquarj: “However, today's cultural landscape is far more eclectic, and it's possible to see a Forbidden Island or Smuggler's Cove thriving without being in the mainstream.” “My neighbor wanted to paint his house, re-do his driveway, and change a bathroom. The city not only vetoed specific color choices on the exterior AND interior, but even dictated the colors he could choose from. They're essentially thinking about the lowest common denominator for all planning decisions, where the least offensive always trumps all else.” “So imagine an owner facing massive impending renovation costs and dwindling attendance coupled with their own fatigue running the day to day enterprise. They're stuck.” “The regulatory barriers to entry in most forms of the hospitality business have made it very difficult or almost impossible for the "lone visionary" to create a destination, or even take over and preserve the spirit in an existing place. It's not only the financing, but also the willingness to operate under all the modern constraints of safety, liability, staffing, etc. Only a rare individual has the capacity for all that, PLUS the execution of the day to day things that attract visitors, like good food and drinks. (Another reason to laud modern proprietors of Smuggler's Cove, Forbidden Island, Tonga Hut, Tiki Ti, the Mai Kai) All combined, this is a big reason why "Mom & Pops" are disappearing, and being replaced by much larger corporate entities with the consolidated capital to handle facilities costs, the teams of lawyers to handle and internally oversee all the modern legal and regulatory crap, and the economies of scale for the tasks of running the business.” and . . . “It could be that the Hanalei management wants to attract different kinds of conferences by having more of a blank canvas in their own decor. If you'd like to host conferences for any group, ranging from the National Seed & Fertilizer Society, to the Hermit Crab Lovers of North America, and the Fraternal Order of Glacial Ice Climbers, perhaps you want to de-emphasize your own theming so that visitors can transform the place into a seed, crab, or ice mecca for the duration of their conference.” Gabbahey: (…and home is boring) "DoubleTree has embarked on a multi-million dollar product enhancement initiative to reinvigorate the hotel experience and provide today's travelers with more of the residential feeling they enjoy at home." Babalu: Quote: “Fueling the growth, says Americas brand chief Gina LaBarre, is a combination of the chain’s refurbishing program, its mix of targeted amenities and services and its emphasis on what she calls “value over excess.” Lucas Vigor: “Actually, WE are all to blame.” “Those cats had style, and a sense of whimsy....plus an exploratory spirit of adventure...who knows?” Tiki Lee’s “When you make your establishment look like everyone else's with a bland, neutral tone to the color, decor, style, etc., it's makes it easier to sell to other corperations who might be interested in buying the place if the present owners want to dump the property. If a potential buyer can buy a property that looks really similar to their other properties, the cost to make it "their own" is minimal, and thusly, very attractive.” TikiG: “Another snoop/scoop reveals that the property was audited by the parent company...recommended changes included consolidation of the restaurant into a full-service one with larger seating capacity, upgrades to the rooms into a higher class to stay competitive with surrounding hotel competition and to set it apart from Motel 6 - a neighbor, addition of conference rooms etc. because the Hanalei is a business conference hotel first and foremost, not a "book-by-the-night" motel." MadDogMike: “Just to add a little fuel to the fire and play devil's advocate - we look at the wonton destruction of Tiki Palaces and cringe in horror but we need to put the shoe on the other foot. Consider the fictitious "Fred's Fish Shack"; built in the 50s, it holds a dear spot in someone's heart because they went there on their first date. So they embark on a quest to save the place as a historical landmark. But the damned place is an eyesore and the food never was any good anyway. The only reason it stayed open was because Fred's wife had a day job that supported Fred's dream of owning a fish shack. It's located on prime real estate stands in the way of progress, it needs to be torn down to build - yes - ugly condos or another Walgreen's. So a few determined people and a good lawyer will stand in the way of progress for years, much to the dismay of 99% of the surrounding population.” John-O (RIGHT ON Johnny!!!!) “Why all the hate for "the corporations" ?? From a historic standpoint, Tiki was always by "The Man" and for "The Man". “It amazes me how "anti-business" so many people here are. Let's say someone owns a struggling (yet profitable) mid-century Tiki business and then a large corporation offers to buy the land or location. If the owner takes up that offer to ensure the financial security of their family, is that "selling out" and being greedy or just being smart in our capitalist society ? What would you do in a similar situation ? Places like the Mai Kai and Tiki-Ti are anomolies and we should cherish them for as long as they exist, but we shouldn't expect others to "finance" our Tiki fix at a detriment to their cash flow.” “It's all our own fault anyway. We spend all our time drinking in bars when we should be forming Political Action Committees and having representation in Washington D.C. !” Tiki Trav (CORRECT!) “…but for the record, I thought it was just to fit more seats where those pesky bridges/waterfalls were...” Tom Slick “ALL of the big casino/hotels are rethinking, replanning, rebranding, and leading to eventual remodeling, and losing All theme. ALL of the new resorts that have been built in the last 4 years are plain jane/brass & glass painted in white, with marble floors. There is no more "theming" in Vegas, on the Corporate level, unless that theme is representative of Wealthy or Rich.” Limbo Lizard “Beige is business, and doesn't attract criticism of expenditures like dense tiki decor and drinks named, e.g., "Vicious Virgin" would.” “As we defend the prudence of our management judgment, and how the problems could not have been foreseen,… the LAST thing we need is someone whipping out a 2-year-old picture of our executives gathered around a table, with a roasted pig in the middle, and one of them being served a big flaming bowl of alcohol by a scantily attired maiden (or cocktails by Playboy bunnies).” And . . . Thanks to all the players!

A lot of issues came up during the main run of this thread.

I really didn’t expect it to get much notice, it was really designed as a tiny thread to just joke back and forth with MadDogMike, but man the TCers are quite a cerebral bunch and you folks should really be proud of yourselves.

Here’s the thing - what has happened to Tiki Palaces is scary, and according to the quotes below the direction our society is going in is even scarier. Comparing 1955 to 2011 is bound to be both divisive and illuminating no matter what the subject…

Anyway, here are the Hall of Fame Ultimate Quotes. All of these are to me essentially correct, and interesting as hell.

JeffBigTikiDude: (maybe the ultimate winner)
“I think that the answer is the Owners/Managers Have their heads up their collective asses.”

“…and the More I think about it.
the General Public has their heads up their asses,
and doesn't get Poly Pop/Tiki.”

BigBrotiki: (right on)
“Many folks equate anything vintage with 'dirty'. Not desirable for restaurants OR apartment buildings.”

Chip & Andy: (Great run-on stream of consciousness sentence, and anything with the words ‘Cranberry Accents’ is a winner)
“You have marketing and design departments full of ideas presenting their ideas to some middle level of management who put their two cents into the design before they give it to the next higher level of management who add their two cents and by the time it reaches the people who can say yes the idea has been flattened and homogenized so much as there is no character left but the top level management thinks its a good idea because they pay their marketing and design departments big bucks so they must know what they are doing when presenting this bland beige and dusty rose with cranberry accents plan.”

” …but, what is missing in most of today's 'Management' is Love.”
” Become cheerleaders for your local tiki bars and get people to go to them, show them how cool they are so they in turn bring others, and so on.”

“The bigger a company gets, the closer it gets to becoming a Corporation. The more Corporate it becomes the more it needs to make money to maintain its growth and eventually reaches a point where making money is the only goal.”

Mongoloid (interesting point, and interesting that the primary rule here on TC is that we cannot discuss religion, when we are talking about Tikis. I’ve always found it ridiculous and screamingly ethno-centric)
“The first thing that came to mind is that people can confuse tiki and consider and interperate it as a religious symbol and that by removing all tikis the hotel feels they will not be conflicting with someones beliefs and religion.”

Hakalugi:
“From a hotel restaurant perspective, and one that is somewhat isolated from other walking distance restaurants, the potential clientele is the people lodging at the hotel. The bean counter thinks he has a captive audience. Ideally the restaurant will move as many customers through the restaurant as fast as possible to maximize income. Any fancy decor or relaxing atmosphere only causes the diners to take their time, thus reducing the turnaround. Get rid of the great atmosphere and your diners per hour goes up!

Flawed in almost every respect...”

Aquarj:
“However, today's cultural landscape is far more eclectic, and it's possible to see a Forbidden Island or Smuggler's Cove thriving without being in the mainstream.”

“My neighbor wanted to paint his house, re-do his driveway, and change a bathroom. The city not only vetoed specific color choices on the exterior AND interior, but even dictated the colors he could choose from. They're essentially thinking about the lowest common denominator for all planning decisions, where the least offensive always trumps all else.”

“So imagine an owner facing massive impending renovation costs and dwindling attendance coupled with their own fatigue running the day to day enterprise. They're stuck.”

“The regulatory barriers to entry in most forms of the hospitality business have made it very difficult or almost impossible for the "lone visionary" to create a destination, or even take over and preserve the spirit in an existing place. It's not only the financing, but also the willingness to operate under all the modern constraints of safety, liability, staffing, etc. Only a rare individual has the capacity for all that, PLUS the execution of the day to day things that attract visitors, like good food and drinks. (Another reason to laud modern proprietors of Smuggler's Cove, Forbidden Island, Tonga Hut, Tiki Ti, the Mai Kai) All combined, this is a big reason why "Mom & Pops" are disappearing, and being replaced by much larger corporate entities with the consolidated capital to handle facilities costs, the teams of lawyers to handle and internally oversee all the modern legal and regulatory crap, and the economies of scale for the tasks of running the business.”

and . . .

“It could be that the Hanalei management wants to attract different kinds of conferences by having more of a blank canvas in their own decor. If you'd like to host conferences for any group, ranging from the National Seed & Fertilizer Society, to the Hermit Crab Lovers of North America, and the Fraternal Order of Glacial Ice Climbers, perhaps you want to de-emphasize your own theming so that visitors can transform the place into a seed, crab, or ice mecca for the duration of their conference.”

Gabbahey: (…and home is boring)
"DoubleTree has embarked on a multi-million dollar product enhancement initiative to reinvigorate the hotel experience and provide today's travelers with more of the residential feeling they enjoy at home."

Babalu:
Quote: “Fueling the growth, says Americas brand chief Gina LaBarre, is a combination of the chain’s refurbishing program, its mix of targeted amenities and services and its emphasis on what she calls “value over excess.”

Lucas Vigor:
“Actually, WE are all to blame.”

“Those cats had style, and a sense of whimsy....plus an exploratory spirit of adventure...who knows?”

Tiki Lee’s
“When you make your establishment look like everyone else's with a bland, neutral tone to the color, decor, style, etc., it's makes it easier to sell to other corperations who might be interested in buying the place if the present owners want to dump the property. If a potential buyer can buy a property that looks really similar to their other properties, the cost to make it "their own" is minimal, and thusly, very attractive.”

TikiG:
“Another snoop/scoop reveals that the property was audited by the parent company...recommended changes included consolidation of the restaurant into a full-service one with larger seating capacity, upgrades to the rooms into a higher class to stay competitive with surrounding hotel competition and to set it apart from Motel 6 - a neighbor, addition of conference rooms etc. because the Hanalei is a business conference hotel first and foremost, not a "book-by-the-night" motel."

MadDogMike:
“Just to add a little fuel to the fire and play devil's advocate - we look at the wonton destruction of Tiki Palaces and cringe in horror but we need to put the shoe on the other foot. Consider the fictitious "Fred's Fish Shack"; built in the 50s, it holds a dear spot in someone's heart because they went there on their first date. So they embark on a quest to save the place as a historical landmark. But the damned place is an eyesore and the food never was any good anyway. The only reason it stayed open was because Fred's wife had a day job that supported Fred's dream of owning a fish shack. It's located on prime real estate stands in the way of progress, it needs to be torn down to build - yes - ugly condos or another Walgreen's. So a few determined people and a good lawyer will stand in the way of progress for years, much to the dismay of 99% of the surrounding population.”

John-O (RIGHT ON Johnny!!!!)
“Why all the hate for "the corporations" ?? From a historic standpoint, Tiki was always by "The Man" and for "The Man".

“It amazes me how "anti-business" so many people here are. Let's say someone owns a struggling (yet profitable) mid-century Tiki business and then a large corporation offers to buy the land or location. If the owner takes up that offer to ensure the financial security of their family, is that "selling out" and being greedy or just being smart in our capitalist society ?

What would you do in a similar situation ?

Places like the Mai Kai and Tiki-Ti are anomolies and we should cherish them for as long as they exist, but we shouldn't expect others to "finance" our Tiki fix at a detriment to their cash flow.”

“It's all our own fault anyway. We spend all our time drinking in bars when we should be forming Political Action Committees and having representation in Washington D.C. !”

Tiki Trav (CORRECT!)
“…but for the record, I thought it was just to fit more seats where those pesky bridges/waterfalls were...”

Tom Slick
“ALL of the big casino/hotels are rethinking, replanning, rebranding, and leading to eventual remodeling, and losing All theme. ALL of the new resorts that have been built in the last 4 years are plain jane/brass & glass painted in white, with marble floors. There is no more "theming" in Vegas, on the Corporate level, unless that theme is representative of Wealthy or Rich.”

Limbo Lizard
“Beige is business, and doesn't attract criticism of expenditures like dense tiki decor and drinks named, e.g., "Vicious Virgin" would.”

“As we defend the prudence of our management judgment, and how the problems could not have been foreseen,… the LAST thing we need is someone whipping out a 2-year-old picture of our executives gathered around a table, with a roasted pig in the middle, and one of them being served a big flaming bowl of alcohol by a scantily attired maiden (or cocktails by Playboy bunnies).”

And . . .

Thanks to all the players!

Post #579450 by Cammo on Tue, Mar 8, 2011 5:35 PM