Post #796164 by EnchantedTikiGoth on Tue, Jul 9, 2019 7:52 AM

On 2019-07-08 19:38, tikiskip wrote:
In many areas people are seen as authoritative figures or maybe experts on a subject and the way you get this title is to study that subject, maybe write a book or even teach the subject, Sven has done all three so he’s one of the authoritative figures that often define tiki.

As someone who has himself done all that stuff on different subjects (including the two you dredged up), I speak from experience that it really doesn't give you the right to be a gatekeeper. It can make someone an authority on the history of the subject sure, and knowledgeable about the styles and aesthetics and so on, but it doesn't give you ownership over them. That's not even how cultures work. Ownership implies control over its use, and nobody has control over Tiki. You can raise an almighty stink over how something or other isn't Tiki and you can shove the pie-chart in their face, and someone will still make it and someone else will still buy it. If you try to gatekeep, people will just step around you. And then, apparently, you'll complain that your gated community is in decline and somehow the problem is that you haven't been gatekeeping enough.

One of my problems with the pie-chart is that it transgresses from being objectively descriptive as befits a proper historian to being prescriptive. Instead of just trying to document what people are doing, its trying to place limits on what they should do. That's wrong. Somewhere along the line, monkeys in fezzes and pin-up girls and South Seas pirates became part of Tiki. Document it and deal with it.

Also I have not talked to Sven, I do not say this with any other motives other than I believe Sven to be a authoritative figure and a reliable source to set guidelines for what tiki style or a tiki bar is.

This isn't really about Sven. I have a huge amount of respect for his work but I've never met him personally, so I have no opinions about him personally. I'm sure he's a really nice guy and I would enjoy sitting with him and chatting about stuff. We'd probably disagree about some things, like the pie chart, and that's fine. I'm sure he's not responsible for this cult-like appeal to authority.

Best I can tell is your tiki drinks are....
"My wife likes two parts 7-Up or Sprite, one part orange juice, and a splash of peach schnapps. For pina coladas, we use a mix, with "I'm Bananas Over You" Original Bartenders Cocktail in place of rum, and a splash of Amarula."

Yes indeed. I clearly don't care very much about drink quality. What else is finding this quote supposed to prove?

So you get to label judge and Be the fun police when it's Goth?

Alright... If you're going to try and dig up dirt on me from 15 years ago, at least post a link to the entire post so we can all see the context: http://www.tikicentral.com/viewtopic.php?topic=2615&forum=1&vpost=73516

TLDR: The thread was people complaining about Tiki going mainstream and my reply was to chill out about it. The quotes you pulled out is me saying I don't own Goth or Steampunk and I'm not entitled to say that Hot Topic isn't "real Goth" or the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen movie isn't "real Steampunk", but I can say they're not good, high quality examples... The same way that someone might acknowledge that technically Party City stuff is Tiki but it's not good Tiki.

So thank you for going back to before you were even a member of the forum to dredge up a post that reinforces what I've been saying and shows I've been pretty consistent in my attitudes over 15 years. I hate gatekeeping and I always have.

WRONG!

I'm afraid not. This thread began with you asking people to share what they look for in a Tiki bar, and then you telling them they're wrong when they answer. Then eventually Hamo posted the pie-chart as a kind of official outline that every new Tiki bar should adhere to. This was never about Tiki Central's rules. And if Tiki Central's rules are such a fantastic, objective, all-encompassing outline for what every Tiki bar should be, then why did you bother asking your question to begin with?

I do have to say that I like the fact that you have your opinions and make them known and hopefully you me or others can come up with our own ideas of what tiki is or is not.

It's a lot better than sitting back and not saying a damn thing.

My moral crusade against gatekeeping overshadows my good sense quite often, because I'm reasonably sure you're enjoying this far more than I am. If we're already at the point of you trying to dig up dirt from 15 years ago to prove I'm some kind of hypocrite, then that's too much Tiki drama for me. I'll opt for the chill Facebook pages where 99% of the time there isn't drama or gatekeeping or fun policing, just people sharing what they love. Maybe I started it with getting personal and if so I apologize, but either way... You win.

[ Edited by: EnchantedTikiGoth 2019-07-09 07:56 ]