Flounder - Someone's ripping you off

[ Edited by: filslash 2008-09-13 11:48 ]

Pottery thread section.
The problem I would see with trying to claim a copyright violation on pottery is how does one prove it is a copy?

With a Mickey Mouse drawing it is fairly obvious that a drawing of it is a copy.

But with a piece of pottery that with just a few changes makes it no longer a copy would be tough to claim is a unauthorized copy. (Such as make the back different.)
And do you have the funds to hire an expensive lawyer in case you need to?

(Plus it does not help to have a photo on your website of the copyrighted and trademarked "Hello Kitty" character that you copied....) I can see the other guy's lawyer saying, "She´s claiming a copyright violation, but she does it, too.")

If you have bad vibes about a project don´t get involved.

This print on eBay kind of reminds me of the pop artist, Jeff Koons, copyright lawsuit:
The Jeff Koons sculpture "String of Puppies," based on a photograph Koons saw on a greeting card. The photographer sued for copyright infringement. A Federal court agreed with the photographer.

If I understand the eBay print thing correctly in this thread, it appears that Artist A, Artist B, and Printer C are involved.
Artist A creates the ceramic mug, Artist B creates a painting of Artist A´s ceramic mug and Printer C buys the painting by Artist B of of Artist A´s ceramic mug and then makes prints of it to sell on eBay and who knows where else.
So who is doing what to whom?
Or???

On 2005-01-26 00:45, ToonToonz wrote:
This print on eBay kind of reminds me of the pop artist, Jeff Koons, copyright lawsuit:
The Jeff Koons sculpture "String of Puppies," based on a photograph Koons saw on a greeting card. The photographer sued for copyright infringement. A Federal court agreed with the photographer.

If I understand the eBay print thing correctly in this thread, it appears that Artist A, Artist B, and Printer C are involved.
Artist A creates the ceramic mug, Artist B creates a painting of Artist A´s ceramic mug and Printer C buys the painting by Artist B of of Artist A´s ceramic mug and then makes prints of it to sell on eBay and who knows where else.
So who is doing what to whom?
Or???

I have no idea myself, but you forgot to put in "Photographer B", which is me. I used my 20 years of film lighting experience to light and photograph the Tiki mugs for the Book of Tiki so they look like pieces of art, glowing from the inside, to show them like they were never seen before. My aim was to elevate mundane restaurant ware to museum pieces. (Compare my photo of the SCA Ku mug from page 104 with the vintage menu photo from page 159, and you will see that by creating a "Sheen" in the glaze he appears more three-dimensional, "yummy" looking.)

But for my part, I feel flattered that Flounder was inspired by some of my photos to paint the mugs. A.) He basically continued my concept and DID make them into pieces of art, which B.) was achieved with a hell of a lot of work by him (painting), which C.) probably nobody else would have done as well as he did.

So: I elevated Florian Gabriel's original work by photographing it like a star, and Flounder elevated that again by painting it so well.
Now for the guy who sells these prints, HE is the only true Rip Off artist in the chain, not adding, just copying the result! He should be stopped.

On 2005-01-26 15:56, bigbrotiki wrote:
So: I elevated Florian Gabriel's original work by photographing it like a star, and Flounder elevated that again by painting it so well.
Now for the guy who sells these prints, HE is the only true Rip Off artist in the chain, not adding, just copying the result! He should be stopped.

Absolutely. Everyone along the chain has added something very significant to the original mug. This repro of Flounder's work adds no value. In fact, it devalues the original painting (as well as the very similar painting I have) to some extent.
He should, at the very least, be reported to eBay as I know they take a swift line on bootlegging.

On a slightly different subject, the seller is currently trying to sell this:

It looks like one of those grim facial reconstructions that occer when a body has been discovered in woods after 6 months.......Poor Shaq!

Trader Woody

Look at him! The man has no ears, for crying out loud...

http://www.samgambino.com

If the original artist who created the mug had never created his work of art, no one else in the chain of reproduction could have followed after him.

Who is the original creator of the ceramic mug? He never seems to get credit anywhere.

Regarding the guy selling the print on eBay, all he has to say is that he bought the print from someone and is reselling it. eBay would not touch him.

On 2005-01-26 16:10, Trader Woody wrote:
On a slightly different subject, the seller is currently trying to sell this:

It looks like one of those grim facial reconstructions that occer when a body has been discovered in woods after 6 months.......Poor Shaq!

Trader Woody

He didn't even get the lazy eye right...

On 2005-01-27 03:14, ToonToonz wrote:

Who is the original creator of the ceramic mug? He never seems to get credit anywhere.

I would never pass up on that in the rare case where I actually knew the mug designer. Florian "Gabe" Gabriel gets credited in the captions to the very photo in question on page 105 of the BOT.

also here:

"....Stephen (Crane) was drawing strongly from the “Beachcomber” and “Trader” traditions. So strongly that art director Florian Gabriel remembers that as a requirement for job as designer for Stephen Crane and Associates he was asked to go to Trader Vic’s at the Beverly Hilton (which once boasted five fifteen foot high exterior Tikis) and sketch a corner of the restaurant. He did so successfully and from then on formed a design team together with George Nakashima, who had previously worked for Welton Becket, architect of the Beverly Hilton. They went on to help construct the satellite islands SCA began to install in other American cities at the end of the 50s..."

and here:

"...Bob Thornton always chose professional Polynesian pop artists to expand on his realm, hiring George Nakashima and Florian Gabriel of Stephen Crane and Associates as art directors and using decor by Oceanic Arts in Whittier to give the Mai Kai that much claimed “authentic” touch..."

I'm now selling burned CD's with the image of the "mug print" I stold off the guys ebay auction of the "mug painting" I did of the "mug photo" Bigbro did of the Florian "Gabe" Gabriel "actual mug". Did any of that make since?

Yeah take that.

On 2005-01-27 18:54, FLOUNDERart wrote:
I'm now selling burned CD's with the image of the "mug print" I stold off the guys ebay auction of the "mug painting" I did of the "mug photo" Bigbro did of the Florian "Gabe" Gabriel "actual mug". Did any of that make since?

Yeah take that.

flounder, please send me a CD so i can make copies to sell.

This is all real interesting!
I found this tidbit of information below about the tiki mug artist Florian Gabriel on of the forums here.
Is he still alive? Has he done any other Tiki type art?
Is he(or his family) getting any royalties off the reproductions of his mug he created?

http://www.tikicentral.com/viewtopic.php?topic=4786&forum=2&7
Article from The Bay City Times, Sunday August 20 1967

BAY CITIAN WAS ART DIRECTOR-DECORATOR - PHOTO
An artist's sketch above shows Detroit's new Mauna Loa restaurant, one of the most expensive of it's kind ever built in the Midwest. Circled areas show the hand-carved bird heads, some of hundreds of authentic artifacts imported from the Pacific Archipelago under the art direction of Florian E. Gabriel, 39, a native Bay Citian who was art director and decorator for the building.

BAY CITIAN HELPS DESIGN 'MAUNA LOA' - ARTICLE

A former Bay Citian can confirm the authenticity of the elaborate Polynesian décor of Detroit's newest, luxurious restaurant, the Mauna Loa.
Florian E. Gabriel, 39, son of Mrs. Rose Gabriel, 1701 S. Chilson ave, was art director and decorator for the $2.25 million restaurant nestled on a man-made lagoon at West Grand Boulevard and Cass Avenue.
Gabriel, who now resides in Los Angeles, and George Nakashima, chief designer of the Mauna Loa, also have designed lavish restaurants in Montreal, Portland, Dallas, Chicago, Cleveland and Beverly Hills.
Their latest accomplishment provides patrons with a make-believe trip through the Pacific Archipelago and India. On the site a waterfall rushed down a hill of volcanic lava into a lagoon surrounded by flaming tiki poles and seven palm trees.
The interior design, said the 1945 graduate of Bay City Central High School, "is a fusion of many exotic locales," all authenticated since the plans were begun two and one half years ago.
Gabriel, who attended St. Hedwig school, spent three years in Special Services of the Air Force after high school graduation. Later he studied four years at the Art Center School, Los Angeles.
Ten years ago Gabriel, whose sister, Mrs. Clarence Meier, and a brother Robert still live in Bay City, became art director for Stephen Crane Associates in Beverly Hills. (Crane owns the Luau Restaurant in Los Angeles). Gabriel and Nakashima have been advisors for the Crane firm the last four years, but are no longer in its fulltime employ.
The Mauna Loa's foyer is a ceremonial hut with a red box hanging from the roof. In the islands, when a Polynesian swain takes his maiden into this hut, it indicates they will be married, said Gabriel.
The heroic island figures and the tiki poles with carvings are authentic, as are the glowing blowfish and an enormous war canoe from Samoa.
The bar, imbedded with 1,250 Chinese coins, has four-bladed fans from a Hong Kong saloon, Bar tables are brass bound hatch covers from trading schooners.
The Bombay Room, formal dining area, has 3,000 zircons imbedded in the filigreed teakwood panels that surround a sacred elephant shrine. Turbaned waiters serve diners there, while in the Papeete Room, the Tonga Room, the Lanai Room or the Maui Room, the Oriental waiters are Mandarin-jacketed.
The upstairs banquet area is of a Mediterranean décor with hand rubbed woods, burnished bronze statues, three interior pools with tropical plantings and waterfalls and a bar-b-que pit.
Mauna Loa has both American and Oriental kitchens, plus a third one to serve the banquet room. Visitors are welcomed there, but not in the service bars where island drinks are mixed with secret formulas.
Gabriel and Nakashima will revise and add to the Mai Kai restaurant in Fort Lauderdale and work on another Mauna Loa, this one in Pittsburgh that will be headed by the Detroit project's 40 local stockholders.

I just picked up my very first issue of Tiki News, #17.
I know, I know..what took me so long? Anyway, I am absolutely astounded by the amount of information stuffed into this little zine.
90ish pages filled to the brim and overflowing with more Tiki than you can take.
Page 30 has a wonderful article about the mug makers. Beginning with the man of which you speak.
But in the Tiki News article when Otto interviewed him in person he has his name as Gabe Florian not Florian Gabriel, so it would seem someone might be confused about his name.

The article says
"One of Gabe's interior illustrations can be seen on page 66 of the Book of Tiki and his designs are sprinkled throughout the Steven Crane chapter page 96. Over the next 12 years Gabe was the art director who helped erect a Tiki empire that rivaled Don the Beachcomber's and Trader Vic's if not in quantity at least in it's plushness, density and design."

The article also has an interesting sketch Gabe did for a mug that never made it to fruition called "The Virgin's Revenge".
The article states that the 73 year old Florian was at that point still an active painter and had works under the pseudonym Kemush. The only date I found in the issue, was in the editorial written by Otto and Sven that was dated March 2001.
What a great read...I can't sing the praises of this magazine enough...a few months back I was looking for info on Trader Luke from San Pedro, BAM! there it was in black and white all my questions answered. Hmmmph, waddya know, my 1000th post, I hope it wasn't to terribly dull.
Thanks Otto & Sven!
More Tiki News please!

[ Edited by: DawnTiki on 2005-01-28 01:53 ]

Gabe Florian or Florian Gabriel...
Anybody have a website about him and his art?

I would sure like to see more of his art work.

He probably has a book´s worth of art and photos of mugs and other Tiki stuff he has done waiting to be published....

Sorry about hi-jacking this thread Trader Woody.
The info I found on the internet says sadly that Florian "Gabe" Gabriel a.k.a. Kemush, passed away on May 4th, 2003 after suffering from a painful battle with cancer.

back to the previous scheduled thread...

[ Edited by: DawnTiki on 2005-01-28 12:08 ]

DawnTiki - Good research you did.
Did you happen to run across any of his art or a website to it?

Yes, a private email to the webmaster yielded artwork Gabe had contributed before his death. The webmaster was more than happy to share Gabe's work with us. Here are the links to see the images. To bad though, not a tiki to be found :(
"Warning Homoerotic Images"
http://www.chiron-rising.com/tempkemush1.html
http://www.chiron-rising.com/tempkemush2.html
http://www.chiron-rising.com/tempkemush3.html

[ Edited by: DawnTiki on 2005-01-31 22:43 ]

flounder's art looks great.
folk who rip other people off are obviously arses.
however i can't see a problem with a guy printing postcards of an image he likes to send his friends if he's not making anything from it.
would be polite to ask though.
artists have traditionally been ripped off becuase we (i earn a living from my art) are not usually business people, we are artists. we should learn to be defensive and protective and guard against this sort of thing.
flounder's idea of putting it in writing on the back of his work is sound.
if folk ask permission to reprint work, are refused and then go ahead, take legal action.
these people are vermin.

Auction closed with starting bid of $5:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=2001&item=3954479026&rd=1

Good news and Bad news I guess.
The good news is nobody bought the print, the bad news is...hmmmm...nobody bought the print...

Here we go again! *"No longer on the retail market ~this sold in souvenir shops and stores in waikiki back in the 1990s."*http://cgi.ebay.com/l-TIKI-MUG-steve-crane-art-royal-old-hawaiian-vintage_W0QQitemZ4401816954QQcategoryZ10034QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

its got flounders name on it alright. Flounder, you have been around for a good amount of time and well travelled.

Unbelieveable.

What the hell is going through their heads!?!?