Music swap at Hukilau

Hi all,

With "The Man" coming down hard on recent sites that do music sharing, I'm wondering if it might be worthwhile to return to the good old days of tape swaping -- though in this case CD swaping. I imagine a lot of folks will be going to Hukilau, and it crossed my mind that there might be a way to coordinate some music swaps.

Just an idea at the moment. What do others think?

I, Zombie

I'll trade you an Aquarium Rescue Unit for a Sparks compilation.

Oh... TIKI music.

Cooll idea. I've been compiling collections of older Hawaiian stuff lately.

Just picked up a Kalama's quartet and "Legends of Hawaiian Steel" or something like that with about 35 songs on it.

Great idea! I'd definitely be willing to share lots of what I have.

Sounds good, but the RIAA may shut down Hukilau. And they may shut down TC for our conspiring to share music here. This is serious Peer 2 Peer file swapping!

Dear Swanky,

Are you serious or kidding about there being a problem with swapping CDs at Hukilau? If serious, I'll let the idea go.
I know you've been through hell with the RIAA, and I respect your opinion.

I, Zombie

Nah, sarcastic. They aren't going that far yet!

I,Zombie,

Maybe you should start your suggestions on selections?

I'll bring a batch of Hawaiian CDs with songs both old and new. No MP3s on this one. Just stuff from my collection. I'll throw an original or two on there too.

I'll try to make it a great mix for a luau or tiki time.

I'm into vinyl, but I've rigged up a pretty good system to burn stuff to CD, though I kinda like the bigger files, not MP3s.

I have A LOT of the usual suspects: Baxter, Denny, Lyman, Sumac. Loads of Esquivel, Mancini and a big collection of Hawaiian LPs. Some Chaino, Raskin, Frontiere, Drasnin, Garcia, Maxwell. So anyone in need of a some of this classic stuff, I can put something together for trade.

I'm looking for a copy of Portrait of Leda, or perhaps Garcia's Fantastica or Adventures in Sound. Plus weird stuff with a space theme is welcome.

There's lots more that I'm forgetting, but perhaps this will get the discussion going.

But if it's too complicated or "serious" to work out trades, I think making favorite compilations as Pablus suggests and just trading with folks just to see what they're listening too, would be fine with me, and maybe more fun. I could do an "I, Zombie" compilation, and others could do the same, and we could just see what we get.

I, Zombie

[ Edited by: I, Zombie on 2005-06-09 13:02 ]

[ Edited by: I, Zombie on 2005-06-09 13:05 ]

Christie and I were talking about this thread last night, and we decided that we want to officially sanction a Hukilau collector's swap meet on Saturday afternoon (October 8) from NOON until 'whenever' in the Bahia Mar ballroom.

This is the same room that the vendors are in, there will also be a DJ spinning music all afternoon, and Haole Kats are going to jump up onto the stage as well.

Of course there will be an array of tables all throughout the middle of the room, and we encourage Hukilau particiants to use these tables, and to bring LPs, CDs, postcards, matchbooks, menus, tiki mugs, wives, or anything else they care to swap.

Two rules: first, no sales. If you want to sell stuff, you'll have to get a vendors' table.

Second, if you're going to bring homemade copies of music that you don't own the copyright to, Christie and I don't want to know about it!

...unless you cut us in on free copies!
:wink:

Have fun!

[ Edited by: tikibars 2005-09-12 17:40 ]

I have made a couple of CDs of everything I have in the Island realm. I have lots of wav files, but I convert to MP3 and burn a few hundred songs on CD. Like 400+. Then I let you sift through it and see what you like.

That could be done with my lounge collection as well.

With a print out of the songs, it could be good. Or maybe copy everything over to a directory structure. Hmm. That gets to be work. I prefer to just dump it all on a CD and let you have at it.

Will trade my 400 song CD for yours. It's some online downloads and lots of my LP recordings.

Sounds like a plan!

Perhaps we should come up with the most popularly accepted format for which to trade. One vintage album burned to a single CD seems like such a waste of space but might be the easiest way for people to choose what they want. I tend to be like Swanky in that I like to pile as many MP3s onto a disc as will fit. Even at the high bitrate that I tend to save things that can equal 10 to 12 albums per compact disc.
Of course, it might be best for everyone to simply show up with whatever they want to bring and leave the trading up to the traders. Either way... I'm In!

TV,

Agreed. People do what they want and we can sort it out down there.

For me, although I can appreciate the cramming concept (getting as many MP3s onto a disc), I'm actually more interested in the home made compilation as art in itself. Taking into account song selection, how well songs move from one to the next, the overall mood evoked, even a nice Jewel case design, with comments from the compiler. I think it would be great to get a compilation from another tiki-file of the tracks that he/she plays when BBQing and making Mai Tai's on a Saturday night. Not just a catch all, but a select group of the songs that really move the person.

That's the route I'll be taking anyway. And if I can get my act together, I might make a few different comps.

I, Zombie

assuming I make it to the event, I'll bring my laptop loaded with tiki and lounge (I have some great italian lounge too). The laptop has a built in CD burner.

Sounds like a plan! I'll bring a pile of stuff. Some playable in the average CD player. Some piled full of MP3s. Some compilations I've made for parties and such. Is it possible to have ownership of too many Tiki, Exotica or Tropical songs? I, personally, think not.

We are going to have DJs playing Exotica and Hapa Haole tunes in the vendors hall on Friday and Saturday afternoon.

Tentatively (subject to change) they will be Miami's DJ LeSpam on Saturday.

This should set the mood nicely for the swap meet in the vendor's hall at NOON on Saturday.

[ Edited by: tikibars 2005-09-12 17:41 ]

AArrghh! This pirate offers a comp from his treasure chest o' tunes... An eclectic mix of exotica, lounge, rock/surfabilly- modern day hi-fi hi-jinx. :)

Thought I'd revive this thread, cuz I'll be there, and I'm wondering how many discs I'll be needing to fire up for exchanging?

[ Edited by: Selector Lopaka 2005-09-08 20:00 ]

[ Edited by: Chip and Andy 2009-06-05 16:58 ]

Glad you're all so stoked up about the swap meet.

Remember, it's not just for music - so bring your postcards, menues, matchbooks, mugs, spouses, or commemorative statuettes of liberty.

But let me retierate that you guys really should refrain from trading digital copies (as opposed to original pressings) of material still under copyright. Having a CD burning facility set up right out in the open is probably not the best idea in the world.

I am not sure how Robert Drasnin, Yma Sumac, Haole Kats, Tongo Hiti, King Kukulele, or Waitiki will feel about people copying their music right there in front of the stage they will be playing on... and if you're not going to copy these people's music out of respect for them being present that weekend, then how is that really different from copying the music of I Belli, Don Tiki, Los Straightjackets, Don Ho, Mai Kai Gents, Britney Spears, or any other living artist? It isn't. And just becasue Misters Denny, Baxter, Colon, and Lyman aren't with us, that doesn't mean that someone doesn't legitimately own their material.

Let's swap legit stuff until our little hearts are content, but if you guys insist on swapping illegal digital copies of material still under copyright (stuff for which copyright has expired is OK, of course)... well, let it be said that this is strongly discouraged.

I'm confused, this thread is inconsistent as to what exactly this swap meet actually is. I'm gathering at this point that tikibars last post is what is happening now, and the rest of the thread should be ignored?

"Christie and I were talking about this thread last night, and we decided that we want to officially sanction a Hukilau collector's swap meet on Saturday afternoon from NOON until 'whenever' in the Bahia Mar ballroom."

'nuff said.

[ Edited by: tikibars 2005-09-12 17:43 ]

I'm going to be buying a spindle of 100 blank CDs and copying all kinds of old crap onto them. It'll be mostly Hapa Haole, some Exotica and a little traditional Hawaiian and Tahitian music. I'll probably do a couple of "Mix" compilation CDs and a few containing entire albums that I've gotten at thrift stores, flea markets and trash piles over the years.
Although I can't be completely sure of the copyright status on all of it, I do know that it was all recorded from out-of-print records that are not readily available and are impossible to play in any CD player. Most of it will be stuff I've burned myself, but I'm sure some will be stuff that I've downloaded from Sharity sites that adhere to the same "out of print only" principle. That being the case, there may be copies of songs by Denny or Baxter, but they will be burned from the original vinyl and not the remastered Ultra-Lounge CDs.

If that is a standard that is not acceptable I'd appreciate being told what, specifically, is. I think we can put together a pretty huge pile of great music without breaking any laws.

[ Edited by: Traitor Vic 2005-09-11 20:09 ]

Nobody is making any money here, we are swaping, so, who cares? It falls outside any laws. And, only if Hukilau gets involved they libel for anything, so, maybe it would be best if it was a grassroots thing, and not "sanctioned" if there are any worries.

I have a new compilation I have put together, but I am not sure how all out to go on the swap. That is, I have designed a cover and label and all that and it takes a lot of time and money to put that whole thing together. Maybe just the CD, or CD with a label is a better option for a trade. I can burn 30 of those in no time and little cost. I am debating. It'll be a regular CD mix, not an MP3 data CD.

How much is everyone else putting into their swaps? Labels; covers; track list; CD with a sharpie title written on it?

Sorry to hop in here - wish I could join in!

Swanky, maybe you could just offer the labels online or in an e-mail? Those that swap for them could download and print the bits and pieces off. That might save quite a bit of time, effort and money on your behalf.

On 2005-09-12 11:15, Tikiwahine wrote:
Sorry to hop in here - wish I could join in!

Swanky, maybe you could just offer the labels online or in an e-mail? Those that swap for them could download and print the bits and pieces off. That might save quite a bit of time, effort and money on your behalf.

You're a genius! I can easily make a page with all my details for the swap CD. I could host other people's too if they want to send them. I do my stuff in Nero though, so I'll see if there is a way to export it into a Word doc instead. Genius!

On 2005-09-11 20:07, Traitor Vic wrote:
That being the case, there may be copies of songs by Denny or Baxter, but they will be burned from the original vinyl and not the remastered Ultra-Lounge CDs.

Hey guys.

We've bumped the swap meet up to noon from 1:00 PM to give you all some more time to do your thing before the ballroom closes down for the day.

Haole Kats and DJ LeSpam will be there to entertain you all.

To address Traitor Vic's confusion (quoted above), just because you make a CD from an original vinyl copy of a record doesn't mean it's legit. It is the music that is under copyright, not the medium.

In order to end this confusion once and for all, I'll make the following ruling. It isn't nescesarily a strict reading of copyright law, it's more of a rule-of-thumb approximation, but it will suffice for our purposes.

Selling digital copies of any music that is available for purchase, anywhere in the world, from a legit copyright holder, even if you made the vinyl-to-digital transfer yourself, is kapu.
Trading of copies (as opposed to originals) of this same music (or video) is frowned upon.
Trading original copies of anything, from any era, is always OK.
Trading of digital copies any music that is NOT available in any format anywhere in the world is OK.
Selling of digital copies of music (even at vendor's tables) that is NOT available in any format anywhere in the world is touchy but will be allowed.

Examples:
Downloading all three gigabytes of those MP3s of Hapa Haole 78's that were on the UseNet a few months ago and trading DVD-Rs of them is OK.
Selling this same DVD-R is OK, but frowned upon.

Making a CD of your vinyl or CD copy of Forbidden Island by Martin Denny and trading or selling it (or MP3s of it) is NOT OK.

Making a CD of your vinyl or CD copy of The Forbidden Sounds of Don Tiki and trading or selling it (or MP3s of it) is NOT OK.

Making a CD of your vinyl copies of records in the so-called "Luke Leilani Sessions" series and trading them is OK. Selling them is frowned upon.

Making a DVD of the Kon Tiki movie trading or selling it is kapu. Making a DVD of some movie that is completely unavailable on video and trading it is OK, selling it is frowned upon. Selling or trading an original VHS copy of the Rapa Nui movie is OK... but who the hell would want it?

And since Christie and I will be over at the Mai Kai getting things ready for most of the swap meet, you can all probably just do what you want, but I have said my piece and covered the Hukilau's ass, so trade away, people, and have fun.

Okay. That certainly clears things up a bit. I'm wondering, though... Is there a site online where we can check to see which songs are still held in copyright and which aren't? Most of the albums that I have, which have not been available since the 70s (much less on CD), include songs such as "Blue Hawaii" and "Beyond the Reef." I'm sure these Songs are still held in copyright by someone (Michael Jackson, perhaps?) even though the individual performances are out of print and unavailable.

I'm not trying to be a pain in the ass or a spoilsport about this. I just hope there's some way we can all figure out a way to share what we have that is, pretty much, impossible for others to get.

Also, (and this is the Edited portion of this post) I don't recall anyone ever mentioning selling anything in this thread. I think everyone involved in this thread has been aware from the get-go that we're talking about Sharing - Not making a profit. It's a fellowship thing.

If I had a friend who loved the Fog Cutter, I would give him a copy of the recipe and suggest that he buy the "Grog Log." I would not photocopy the entire book and give it to him. I hope Jeff Berry would be alright with that.

I really don't want to stomp on anyone's toes with this, but I hope we can TRADE music in much the way that, in the 80s, we traded Mix Tapes.

[ Edited by: Traitor Vic 2005-09-12 22:39 ]

Let me digress away from the Hukilau swap rules for a bit and into a general explaination of why things are the way they are, so that some of you may have a more clear understanding of why the music biz is in such a fuss these days.

The difference between 1980s mix tapes and modern music trading is signifigant:

Making a mix tape, you had a 90 minute cassette that had to be copied in real time, relatively expensively, and with a loss of sound quality. So if your buddy or girlfriend wanted a copy of your mix, you had to spend $3 on a cassette, sit there for an hour and a half while it copied, and the copy would have a loss of sound quality. If you wanted to make another copy, it was another investment of 90 minutes, $3, and a loss of quality. And if your friend wanted to make a copy of his copy, the quaity would further deteriorate.

Now, with CD burners as fast as they are, and with perfect bit-for-bit reproduction, and with blank CDs easily well under a buck, we have a new scenario. Now if your buddy or girlfriend wants a copy of your new 80-minute mix CD, you can pop in blank CD, and make a perfect clone of it for under a buck, in under five minutes. If your friend wants to pass the mix on to someone else, he can also make a pefect copy of his copy with no loss of quality in under five minutes for under a buck.

And what is worse is the MP3s, Once those are posted to the internet, thousands of people can have copies of the music with no time or money spent. And those thousands may each share the MP3, and so on. Granted MP3s do have a loss in quality over just cloning a bought CD, but the sound quality of an MP3 at 160 kbps or above is no worse than a cassette, and clearly people are willing to accept this loss of sound quality for the convinience that MP3 provides.

Now, the real crux of the issue is where to draw the line. Is making a mix CD such a bad thing? Probably not. I do it all the time, myself. But I can tell you this: Just yesterday I was on the phone talking to a guy from a band who are playing at Hukilau next month. He told me that the only reason they were able to make it up to Chicago to play Expotica earlier in the summer is because of CD sales at the event. If it wasn't for their CD sales, they would have run out of gas money half ay home.

Here's a real true statistic: 98% of all bands who are signed to a record label (major or indy) are NOT making a living wage from their music. Sure, you have your U2, Rolling Stones, Eminem, Madonna, and Britney. They and their ilk that other 2%. The others all have day jobs, or drop out of the music biz ("break up") in 4 to 7 years... anf get day jobs. So how about all of those indie bands who aren't even signed? There are always a few who do so well with merch and CD sales at their shows that they are making fat bank, but again, they are the vast minority.

So it is definitely NOT OK to deny potential sales from these people. If you want the music, pay the artist. For 80 years, that was a no-brainer, and now all of a sudden people are getting belligerent about the idea that they can't have music for free. Where did this idea come from, so suddenly and so completely?

So do the math: is making a mix CD for your girlfreind or buddy denying someone bread on their table? Probably not, and if anything it will turn someone on to new music that they may go buy. I can't think of anyone who would really object. But there is a line that must be drawn between what is OK, fair use, and what is theft.

OK, back to the copyright issue: Vic, there is no one-stop shop you can go to to look up every song.

Also, there is a tangled web of issues such as who owns the copyright to the actual song (imagine if it was printed on sheet music) and who owns the copyright to the sound recording (imagine the master tapes used to make the LPs or CDs, and the band playing on them). Often, this is two different people: if Throbbing Gristle do a Martin Denny cover version, then TG owns the copyright to the sound recording, and MD (or his heirs.. or his ex-record label...) own the copyright to the song itself.

When trading digital copies of older music, it does get complicated as to what is ethically and legally OK. I am as big a music fan as anyone (that's why I do it for a living, after all), and I love trading music. I may seem to have ranted on and on in this thread (and others) against trading music, but really I am just trying to explain under what circumstances it is accceptible, and under what circustances it is not.

Since the legal web is so tangled, I use the rule of thumb outlined in my previous posting, which is that it is OK to make digital copies of anything that is not offered for sale by a legit record label anywhere in the world. This STILL doesn't mean that the stuff you are trading isn't under copyright. But like I said, the concientious trader must draw a line somewhere, and after giving the matter some thought, that's where my ethical comfort zone is.

A quick internet search of an artist's name will usually let you know if his/her stuff is legitimately available out there.

Man, that was a rant and a half.

Someone hand me a mai tai.

That argument falls completely flat on it's face with one simple fact: Used record and CD sales. Loss of sound quality: Zero. Revenue to the original artist and record industry: zero.

The time and expense required to record an LP to a Cd is also far greater than the old days. Recopying may be faster, but no one ever actually sat and watched a recording happen. You turn it on and watch TV or whatever.

On the copying point, there is a lot of precident for allowing copying. Radio stations broadcast and copy music all the time. It's a fair use clause. There would be plenty of room to put this sort of sampler trading under the same "benefit equals loss" paradigm. Certianly in terms of out of print material, there is no loss at all. Zero revenue is being generated in any form of music sale, so no argument can be made of loss of revenue.

Maybe a 1PM meet by the pool would keep the legal worries away.

There are issues in all this, but not for us swapping music at Hukilau. My opinion is that the industry is just being a big bully rather than try to adapt their business model to changes in technology and society. Billy Mure was selling burned copies of his records last year, how does that fit in? All this is for big business and other people to worry about. Remeber kids, the RIAA only sues people who share a lot of music online, not those that download a lot of music online.

On 2005-09-13 09:36, Swanky wrote:
That argument falls completely flat on it's face with one simple fact: Used record and CD sales. Loss of sound quality: Zero. Revenue to the original artist and record industry: zero.
On the copying point, there is a lot of precident for allowing copying. Radio stations broadcast and copy music all the time. It's a fair use clause. There would be plenty of room to put this sort of sampler trading under the same "benefit equals loss" paradigm. Certianly in terms of out of print material, there is no loss at all. Zero revenue is being generated in any form of music sale, so no argument can be made of loss of revenue.
There are issues in all this, but not for us swapping music at Hukilau. My opinion is that the industry is just being a big bully rather than try to adapt their business model to changes in technology and society. Billy Mure was selling burned copies of his records last year, how does that fit in? All this is for big business and other people to worry about. Remeber kids, the RIAA only sues people who share a lot of music online, not those that download a lot of music online.

The post made by me on this thread prior to this one was for educational purposes only, and as I mentioned a the beginning of the post, it was not intended to detract from (or really have anything further to do with, except in the most abstract sense) people swapping music at Hukilau.

I didn't think I'd need to respond at length again on the admittedly not-very-Tiki subject. But Tim, as much as I like and respect you, I have to say that all of your various points above are completely misguided.

Let me address them one by one.

Used CD/LP sales. Artists and labels HATE this practice, but there is nothing they can do about it. The important point is that the music is not being copied or mechanically or digitally reproduced. If you buy a CD and then sell it to someone else, it is your property and you have the right to sell it off as used goods. It is true that the artists and labels make no money off of the sale, and in the 1980s there was a big push to get used record stores closed. That push failed, of course. But the point here is that the original CD/LP is not being copied. That makes it legal.

Radio.
Radio does not fall under 'fair use'. That is something completely different. Again, radio is not copying the material and selling it. As you listen to the radio, you do not have a hard copy of what you are listening to. Record labels and bands LOVE radio because it gives them mass exposure to many many thousands of people at one time, at little cost to the artist or record label. It is like free advertising for the CD/LP not to mention concerts and other band merchandise. Again: no permenent copy of the music is being made or sold. And, the radio stations pay fees to ASCAP and BMI (as do nightclub owners, any place that has a jukebox, and other people who play records or CDs in public) so that the artists get a bit of cash from these spins. Even the Bahia Mar hotel (home of the Hukilau) pays an annual fee to ASCAP and BMI to cover royalties for all music performed or played on the premesis.

ASCAP and BMI are artist-owned organizations that exist soley to champion the rights of recording artists. They are not the RIAA, which exists to champion record companies.

Billy Mure: Tim, your argument REALLY falls apart here. Billy was selling copies of his own music for his own profit. Just becasue they were on cassettes or CDRs instead of pressed CDs makes no difference. The money was going to the artist, he wins, everyone is happy. End of story.

RIAA: whether or not they are suing YOU makes no difference - they would go after everyone, if it was feasible to do so.

The music industry IS adapting their business model to the changes in technology and society, by launching sites like iTunes where you can legally buy MP3s. People like you who insist that trading or giving away music that is available to buy legally is an acceptible thing to do, and who refuse to see how radically different it is to give away thousands of copies of an MP3 versus one or two or even five copies of a mix tape are literally killing the chances of new artists making a living from their work.

The official swap meet for all Tiki stuff is still at noon in the ballroom. The rules for acceptable music swapping are posted several posts above this one. The rules, from a legal standpoint are quite lenient, actually. I am a music fan myself, of course, and have traded MP3s, mix CDs and other stuff actively in the past (and present).

The question you have to ask yourself, honestly and ethically, is: "am I taking bread off of someone's table by giving away this music?". If you can honestly answer 'no', then proceed.

Again, this is a pretty vague and lenient reading of the law, but we rabid music fans can usually get by with using it as a rule of thumb.

If you disagree with the law, then just do yourself a favor and ask Robert Drasnin, the Haole Kats, the Intoxicators, Tongo Hiti, King Kukulele, or Waitiki how they feel about you copying their CDs, and they will all, I am sure, let you know their opinion on the subject. And it won't be pretty.

For the last time: selling or trading of digital copies of material for which active copyright can be clearly demonstrated (i.e. for sale currently by a legit source) is not acceptible, at Hukilau, or anywhere else.

This means that about 15% of all classic Exotica and 10% of all classic Hapa Haole is off limits.

Is this too restrictive for you, Tim?

I find this whole area of discussion so interesting and yet don't quite know what to make of it. In the end, it's the legal system trying to keep up with technology and, of course, in the end technology will win..I mean, what's the purpose of mankind creating all these accessible technologies if we don't use them?
I don't know exactly how this will work, but I can imagine a future where musicians aren't making their money from sales, because there won't be any. I understand the legal/moral concerns...but you can not stop technological progress and many of your "average every day people" have music & video duplicating ability now. It will be interesting to see how this all unfolds in the years to come.
Having said that, I agree with some earlier posts that it seems like it certainly OUGHT to be ok to trade and sell CDrs of LPs that are not commercially available...damn the folks who are holding the copyright and not UTILIZING the material!

Clearly we all are saying 'no'. For the most part, there is no bread to be put on the table. Out of release music has no money to make. We are not robbing anyone of sales since there is nothing in existense for them to sell.

What you are really getting at is more about if I was burning a CD from a CD or perhaps even an LP which is in release now. However, that's not what we are doing here.

The way I look at it is that, just as radio is promoting artists and leading to sales and interest, so am I and everyone else sharing a mix CD of their favorites. If I was trading a complete copy of the Haole Kats CD, they should take me in the corner and pummel me. If I had a song of theirs on my mix, and the person hears it for the first time and now knows they love it and need to get over to their site and buy the whole CD, that's promotion. "Fair Use." (Purely an example. Everything I have is off 20-40 year old records.) Regardless of whether the record companies fought radio, they lost. The promotional value of radio was said to offset the usage fees for the same music.

And though Billy Mure was selling his own music, I bet the RIAA did not get their cut and would take him to court rather quickly if they thought there was any money in it.

None of us is going to research if our CDs are "legal". It turns a fun trade of obscure music into a police raid.

Don't get me wrong though. I am not in favor of screwing over artists. My main argument is that there are a lot of uses of music that are being attacked because they assume it hurts sales with no proof, and that there is just as good an argument, if not better that says it works as a promotion and leads to more sales. And I think the industry has been rather much Ludites about it all and could have chosen to adapt, but instead has chosen to sue their customers and campaign for laws that stifle creativity and technology before it's even born.

To get way off topic, suing a P2P provider for music swapping is like suing the phone company when someone plans a bank robbery over the phone.

So, James, are you gonna swap CDs with us or not? I wanna hear the crisp sounds you get through your LP to CD system I have read about.

We'll see how this works. I could not figure out a way to convert my Nero file to a Word or other file. I can copy and paste the data elsewhere, but that'll take a little time later.

Right click and "Save Target As..." or the appropriate Mac option.

I print my covers in Word, and 2 fit to a page, so:
http://www.hukilau.org/TCimages/2%20covers.doc

An insert:
http://www.hukilau.org/TCimages/Hapa%20Haole.doc

The Nero file for the liner notes and CD label:
http://www.hukilau.org/TCimages/hapa%20haole.ncd

If you'd like me to put your files on my server to share for this, send them to me. I'll fix the links and email them back to you for you to post.

Maybe James and I should have the first annual Hukilau debates. But I'd rather debate sweet drinks vs. sour than music industry and copyrights.

Hi all,

I've been away from tiki-central for awhile, and thought I'd check in.

As the one who started this thread, I'm now concerned that I shouldn't be burning ANY CDs for trading. I have no idea if someone owns the rights to the old exotica music I listen to. Nor do I know how to find out (or have the time to find out).

Given the rules layed out by the Hukilau, I won't be bringing CDs to swap. I respect Hukilau's position -- especially as a first time attendee -- so I hope people understand and don't hold it against me.

Looking forward to the event.

Aloha,

I, Zombie

Creepers!

Sounds as if all the fun has been taken right out of this one, boy howdy. Too bad I won't be getting that check for $7 million that I hoped would magically appear in my mailbox because I traded a cd containing a few tracks from the "Ports of Paradise" album, by Alfred Newman and Ken Darby, to someone for something else just as interesting and valuable. I suppose that anyone who would have liked to have heard the version of "Now is the Hour" from that album will have to go to their local Tower Records, order a CD copy from Capitol, sit down, and wait for it to be remastered, produced, packaged, released and shipped. Perhaps, if they don't leave the store, they'll be the first in line to get a copy and won't lose out to the rabid hordes of 16 year old girls who rush in to buy it the second it arrives.

It almost takes all the fun out of my being able to personally starve to death the children of Al, Ken, vocalist Mavis Rivers, a ton of talented musicians, the stockholders, staff and management of Capital Records, the staff of some Litho shop someplace and, since it was released as a cooperative effort, the staff and management of the Matson Navigation Company.

I guess that, if I don't do that one dastardly deed, the mysterious check for $7 million will be multiplied by thousands, go to them instead, and they will feed their families.

[ Edited by: Traitor Vic 2005-09-13 23:37 ]

this doesn't have anything to do with music but it's in the same ballpark. being a fellow artist (visual) I have seen my work being sold and bought and traded at conventions,and hang in tattoo shops that were reproductions of the original print run. now I got paid for the originals and the original run of prints,but not for these copys,bootlegs what have ya. I've come to the relization that this will always happen and there's really not much I can do about it. and I really don't feel like anybody's taking bread off my table, but it sure pisses you off regardless. being an artist it would be nice to have someone say don't sell,trade,swap this guys work at least not here at this convention (which people almost always do secretly and out in the open!).I know it doesn't sound like much,but it would make me happy. so all technicalities about the music industry and who owns what,when or how someone gets paid aside what I think james is trying to say here is simple: PLEASE don't trade,sell,swap etc.etc.etc. non-original copys of other peoples work at the hukilau.if you want to out in the parkinglot in the trunk of your car,thats your business but not at the offical function.Quite simple. sorry to rant on and see ya at the hukilau.

[ Edited by: theARTFINK 2005-09-13 23:51 ]

I think that the Hukilau organizers' request can be pretty much summarized as "please don't trade duplicates of songs that people can buy." That seems like a pretty simple and reasonable request to make.

Ah, Humu, if only I had your gift for simplicity and brevity.

On 2005-09-14 08:18, tikibars wrote:
Ah, Humu, if only I had your gift for simplicity and brevity.

And if we all had her good taste in clothes, and her shopping skills, and her boundless energy, and her sharp mind, and her scientific ability, and her Bird of Paradise mug, and her programming skills, and her generocity, and her ability to get along well with others...

Rev. Dr. Frederick J. Freelance, Ph.D., D.F.S

[ Edited by: freddiefreelance 2005-09-14 14:15 ]

On 2005-09-13 20:24, Traitor Vic wrote:
I suppose that anyone who would have liked to have heard the version of "Now is the Hour" from that album will have to go to their local Tower Records, order a CD copy from Capitol, sit down, and wait for it to be remastered, produced, packaged, released and shipped.

How many times have you traded a not-currently-released Capitol recording?

For every time you did, how many times did you email, write, or phone Capitol and ask them to release it (on CD, or just a download)?

Great question, Hanford! Of course, I would expect nothing less from you. As a matter of fact, I've never traded any entire unreleased album. I have, however, downloaded a few for myself and made copies of several that I have copied from albums I own for interested friends (absolutely no Trading of any type involved here).

As far as contacting Capital Records is concerned I must admit that I have not done that. I have, however, contacted representatives from Warner Brothers, A&M and Philips Records (both A&M and Philips are now owned by the Universal Music Group which is owned by the French water company Vivendi). In each case I was interested in procuring (paying for!) copies of music that I had previously owned (already paid for once!) but lost (had stolen from me, lost in a fire, dropped a speaker on, etc...) that had never been re-released on CD and, in most cases, were pretty ancient and hard-to-find to begin with. In each case I was told that the music to which I was referring did not hold enough mass-market appeal to warrant it's availability. In other words... This Is WORTHLESS MUSIC!!! It's not worth their time to make it available. It's not worth their time to hire flunkies to convert it to a digital format at minimum wage. It's not worth their time to post it, thereby taking up valuable server space that could be being used by Ashley Simpson. Hell! In the case of Philips Records, it's not even worth their time to look it up in a catalog (or database) to see if it has ever been released at all! Or if the Swingle Singers ("the Swinger Singles?") actually existed, for that matter. At least the Warner Bros. representative assured me that some small amount of what I was asking about would, eventually, become available online. It did, however, only as a result of it's eventually being released on CD, at which point I simply went to the store and bought the CDs.

The message that they gave me was clear. They own it. I don't. If they want me to have it, they'll sell it to me and I'll buy it. If they don't want me to have it, I'm not supposed to be able to get it. Nuff sed. Shut up. Go away.

So here's the deal... If you're sitting around waiting for the CD reissue of the entire Reparata and the Delron's album "Whenever a Teenager Cries" to come out, you better get awfully comfortable. If you get a hankerin', anytime soon, to listen to The Premiers' "Farmer John" album and shake that thang like you used to, you might as well just go ahead and sit that thang down. If you find yourself wanting to hear the first Rank and File album (you know... the one with Alejandro Escovedo on guitar) again for the first time since you got your CD player in 1985 and immediately tossed your turntable into the trash, you might want to, instead, go find a supply of Chill Pills and wash the lot of them down with a big ol' bottle of Chateau de Disappointemente.

Don't get me wrong. I love Capitalism! I'm a Huge Fan! I dream of a day when every single piece of recorded music ever assembled is available (at a reasonable fee directed toward the writers, artists and producers responsible) for download at a single site (probably originally developed by Apple Computer, sold to Microsoft and finally owned - along with Apple and Microsoft - by the French water company Vivendi).

That hasn't happened yet. That's probably not going to happen in my lifetime.

I think Humuhumu had an idea that hit the nail on the head. At the same time, when I asked once before...

On 2005-09-11 20:07, Traitor Vic wrote:
Although I can't be completely sure of the copyright status on all of it, I do know that it was all recorded from out-of-print records that are not readily available and are impossible to play in any CD player. Most of it will be stuff I've burned myself, but I'm sure some will be stuff that I've downloaded from Sharity sites that adhere to the same "out of print only" principle. That being the case, there may be copies of songs by Denny or Baxter, but they will be burned from the original vinyl and not the remastered Ultra-Lounge CDs.

If that is a standard that is not acceptable I'd appreciate being told what, specifically, is. I think we can put together a pretty huge pile of great music without breaking any laws.

I was told...

On 2005-09-12 18:05, tikibars wrote:
To address Traitor Vic's confusion (quoted above), just because you make a CD from an original vinyl copy of a record doesn't mean it's legit. It is the music that is under copyright, not the medium.

If that was meant to clear my confusion (and I don't mean any disrespect to Tikibars by this) it did so by telling me that, because I am unaware of the specifics of arcane copyright laws, I am not allowed to trade music at Hukilau. I'm not trying to make this any more complicated than it needs to be, but we probably need a specific standard set, at this point, for what is and what is not acceptable. I can guarantee that I was only ever planning on bringing copies of songs that I, myself, have spent hours and hours copying from albums that I have bought at local thrift stores and the one decent Vinyl Shop about and hour from our home. I have even spent hours replacing songs by Don Tiki, Combustible Edison, Seks Bomba, Twisty and the like, with songs from old records on CDs that I had made to be played at parties and gatherings around the ol' house here, just so I could feel good about taking them to Hukilau to trade.

One simple, straight-to-the-point, overall statement from the Hukilau organizers that gives us a frame in which to work, and which would help to absolve them from any responsibility (in case the President of Capital shows up and raises hell about my CD with Alfred Newman and Ken Darby's version of "Now Is the Hour") would be, not only sufficient, but wonderful at this point.

[ Edited by: Traitor Vic 2005-09-14 22:53 ]

The trouble of the modern age! It seems this is an issue simply because we are trading CDs. If we all trade cassettes, I am gathering, there is no issue. Let's get old school then. If we lower the quality and trade a tape, no one will care. A tape isn't uploadable on your PC, so it's all cool. IMO, that's a little bogus in these relative terms. In grander terms, there are issues. But we are not trading music that the industry cares about. If they did, we would all have access to it and then we wouldn't swap, we'd recommend and buy. "Eden's Island" is out there on CD, but you can't find it in any stores any more. It seems to too obscure even as a CD!

So, let's have the Hukilau tape swap! No rules about that. Or better yet, an "unofficial" event to completely stop the worrying. But, it's not official. It's not on the website. Maybe it's gonna be in the program? No liabilty if it's no "sanctioned."

On 2005-09-15 10:27, Swanky wrote:
Let's get old school then.

8 Track anyone? Reel-to-Reel maybe? :wink:

On 2005-09-15 10:27, Swanky wrote:
Let's get old school then.

One simple, straight-to-the-point, overall statement from the Hukilau organizers that gives us a frame in which to work, and which would help to absolve them from any responsibility (in case the President of Capital shows up and raises hell about my CD with Alfred Newman and Ken Darby's version of "Now Is the Hour") would be, not only sufficient, but wonderful at this point.

It appears to me that some of us are making a big deal out of nothing. Did you even read this post by tikibars?:

Two rules: first, no sales. If you want to sell stuff, you'll have to get a vendors' table.

Second, if you're going to bring homemade copies of music that you don't own the copyright to, Christie and I don't want to know about it!

...unless you cut us in on free copies!

It sounds simple and straightforward to me. Trade all you want but don't sell, and don't advertise that some of it may be copyrighted. And tikibars' earlier post, as he stated, was intended to "cover his ass" legally while not denying people the freedom to trade.

No worries!

Man, this thread is becoming really convoluted and confusing.

Perhaps it is my fault for making such verbose and lengthy posts in the past, and perhaps the point of the issue got lost.

Here it is one last time - it is REALLY SIMPLE.

I wrote:

"...it is OK to make digital copies of anything that is not offered for sale by a legit record label anywhere in the world.

A quick internet search of an artist's name will usually let you know if his/her stuff is legitimately available out there. "

...and if you WANT more clarification, I also wrote...

"Selling digital copies of any music that is available for purchase, anywhere in the world, from a legit copyright holder, even if you made the vinyl-to-digital transfer yourself, is kapu.
Trading of copies (as opposed to originals) of this same music (or video) is frowned upon.
Trading original (pressings) of anything, from any era, is always OK.
Trading of digital copies any music that is NOT available in any format anywhere in the world is OK.
Selling of digital copies of music (even at vendor's tables) that is NOT available in any format anywhere in the world is touchy but will be allowed. "

and then Michelle summed it all up as:

"I think that the Hukilau organizers' request can be pretty much summarized as "please don't trade duplicates of songs that people can buy." That seems like a pretty simple and reasonable request to make. "

Come on guys, we are not being complete Nazis about this, and the fact that this thread has gotten so tangled is a real drag.

It is very, very simple.

I'll be there a-tradin' with the rest of you, and I have a little gift from one Mr. Chin in Detroit for the first ten or so people who show up to swap (think: Sabu territory), so let us stop this bickering and have some fun!

We can debate the law over a Zombie, but for now, let us follow it.

On 2005-09-15 12:15, tikibars wrote:
Man, this thread is becoming really convoluted and confusing.

Perhaps it is my fault for making such verbose and lengthy posts in the past, and perhaps the point of the issue got lost.

Here it is one last time - it is REALLY SIMPLE.

I wrote:

"...it is OK to make digital copies of anything that is not offered for sale by a legit record label anywhere in the world.

A quick internet search of an artist's name will usually let you know if his/her stuff is legitimately available out there. "

...and if you WANT more clarification, I also wrote...

Sheesh, why didn't you say so in the first place! :wink: But I don't debate over Zombies. I don't dare do anything over Zombies... I'll be in line to swap music with ya. I wanna hear what it's supposed to sound like when you dub LP to CD!

For the record (no pun), my mix is mostly my own recordings of old records, but I have put a couple that I got off shares by people like Belly Bongo. Other people's old records... No CD or modern music at all.