Are Tikis not Pagan?

Monolithic Poloytheism.

NOT a discussion. just a question as to what you think Tikis Are.

I know What the Hawaiians did with them.

They worshiped them.
@

[ Edited by: AlienTiki 2005-07-09 16:14 ]

Tikis by and large are seen as works of art much as statues of Greek or Egyptian gods are no longer worshiped but seen as objects of beauty and a connection to what is considered a high point in world civilization. Tikis also represent modern America's desire for relief from the presures of the modern world and an escape into a fantasy past.
Just my opinion.

On 2005-07-09 16:13, AlienTiki wrote:
Monolithic Poloytheism.

NOT a discussion. just a question as to what you think Tikis Are.

I know What the Hawaiians did with them.

They worshiped them.
@

---

[ Edited by: AlienTiki 2005-07-09 16:14 ]

What the ---- exactly is your question? (please note all Hanford whiners, that "----" more than likely means "heck")

Hell yeah they're Pagan. That's what I love about them.

[ Edited by: saxotica 2005-07-09 18:36 ]

And?

well some may say when you spend hours setting up your altar to false idols (aka tiki bar). Then sit at it and drink habitualy.

It's a form of worship. Just like the ancient Hawaiians.

We are no more civilized than them. If you think different, Imagine if the grocery stores run out of food.

We are one step away from barbarism.

You savages.

On 2005-07-09 19:42, AlienTiki wrote:

We are no more civilized than them. If you think different, Imagine if the grocery stores run out of food.

haY ALEINTIKI IF YOU'RE GROCRDY STORE RUN OUT OF FOOD YOU ARE WELCOME TO EAT ME YOU SALVAGE
;p

The Tiki culture revival is also a form of ancestor worship, which was the core of Polynesian religion, inspiring the creation of Tikis.

Honoring a lifestyle that was ignored before, through cultist re-enactment we show respect for our elders, whose attempts at escapism were derided and forgotten by previous generations.

Healing these wounds of disrespect is an important step to growing up, not unlike realizing in mid-age that one is really not so different than one's old man.

This however should not mean that we all run to daddy once we get a little scared. Those who do not remember the mistakes of the past are condemned to repeat them.

On 2005-07-09 16:13, AlienTiki wrote:
NOT a discussion. just a question as to what you think Tikis Are.

Um, why arent we allowed to discuss this? I beleive the meaningful discussions on TC add a lot of depth for understanding tiki culture, and the nuts (us) that dig it. It is especially useful for newer tiki-philes (I still consider myself to be in this category) to understand and what tiki is, and the different ways in which it is manifested.

As far as the original question, the original island idols were pagan. TC is more focused on the pop culture usage of these figures and "polynesia" in general, as a form of romanticism. This enjoyed its heyday in the 50s, and is now enjoying a revival.

Additionally, perhaps you should post what I beleive is the question you really want to answer, which is "why aren't religous discussions/art/whatever allowed on TC, when the "tiki" figure (or insert other island idol/god) is apparently drawn from a pagan idol which indeed could be viewed as a religion/religous figure?"

This is a fair enough question, and i can understand why you would ask it. It does appear to contradict itself I agree.

The answer to this is that religous and political discussions often result in users in heated discussions due to the sensitive nature of the topic. This is not the aim or purpose of TC. As I said earlier, TC is focused on the pop culture of tiki/polynesia, and discussing it in a constructive manner.

I am trying to give a constructive response to your question, and my personal intrepretation of the underlying questions behind it. If I am way off, I apologise.

Wow you guys are good.
Big bro Tiki I wasn’t even thinking of the whole Amakua thing. Or Amakua Kaai . most families kept a statue of Lono along with their various amakuas. Almost never a statue of Ku. at least not for the commoners. The Alii would keep figures of Ku whose rituals are far too extensive to be performed by non Alii. These rituals would include human sacrifice, and they even went as far as to keep the people of the island silent during such rituals as not to upset the ritual or the Gods.

And Hewey you really hit the nail on the head. In a rather poignant way. I don’t want to cause any problems. After I posted this supposed question I realized the err of my ways. However I relish the chance to point out lifes little or big contradictions.
Thanks for being such good sports and playing along.

And Buffetiki, if my grocery store runs out of food , you might get your wish.

Savages.

On 2005-07-10 05:07, AlienTiki wrote:

Savages.

SOPHISTICATED Savages, please!

Weren't the first tikis just the Polynesians' representation of man ?

On 2005-07-10 05:07, AlienTiki wrote:

And Buffetiki, if my grocery store runs out of food , you might get your wish.

far out dude :wink:

The Polynesians are some of the most Christianized people on earth.
Are tikis pagan? Yes, but so is the Cupid on your Valentine's Day card,, the tree on your Christmas card and the eggs on your Easter card. All are commercialized references to a pagan past in a Christianized present. Perhaps that is the signifigance. Tikis represent a rebellion aganst the present culture. Even the reverence for the Polynesian Pop of the fifties represents a rejection of the present.

Every full moon I strip naked and cover my face with fresh lamb's blood and approach Melvin, my Primary Tiki, with a dubloon in my right hand and Holy Rum in my left, while my wife and girlfriends beat their drums and whip themselves into a frenzy of ecstasy until we all join Melvin in the Spirit World and there consecrate the things that are eternal and meaningful, but other than that I do not take tikis seriously at all.

But then wouldn't x-tianity be "pagan" so to speak to the early polynesians.

I'm an atheist, so pagan doesn't bother me one bit. I'm always interested in seeing how people tried to explain what they couldn't understand.

Your mileage will vary greatly.

Besides which, tikis look damn cool, and look even better when you've plied yourself with rum.

I always thought it would be fun to open a bar with cartoony religious icons all over...Pope-alope mugs with antler handles, Stuffed Mormons on 10 speeds on the mantle, Turbans, Yamikas and Fezes with certain cocktails...(Your name embriodered on the back for a few dollars extra)

It certainly would pave my road to hell...but (like Jungle Trader) I have been informed I'm on my way anyhow...and like the idea of having a party there too.

Everybody is a Pagen (or infidel) to each other...which makes taking any bit of it serious a bit perplexing.

To me anyway.

On 2005-07-10 15:48, Gigantalope wrote:

Everybody is a Pagen (or infidel) to each other...which makes taking any bit of it serious a bit perplexing.

To me anyway.

Gigantalope,

That is one of the truest statements to be uttered on this board since I've been here.

the slip n' slide is fantastic, ain't it!

cancil post

On 2005-07-10 19:04, Tiki_Bong wrote:

On 2005-07-10 15:48, Gigantalope wrote:

Everybody is a Pagen (or infidel) to each other...which makes taking any bit of it serious a bit perplexing.

To me anyway.

Gigantalope,

That is one of the truest statements to be uttered on this board since I've been here.

Wow I never really thought of pagans as infidels.
I thought infidels were non Muslims. I guess pagans would fall into that boat.

On 2005-07-10 11:39, Satan's Sin wrote:
Every full moon I strip naked and cover my face with fresh lamb's blood and approach Melvin, my Primary Tiki, with a dubloon in my right hand and Holy Rum in my left, while my wife and girlfriends beat their drums and whip themselves into a frenzy of ecstasy until we all join Melvin in the Spirit World and there consecrate the things that are eternal and meaningful, but other than that I do not take tikis seriously at all.

I do A simular ritual but it involves chicken's blood and my Alpha tikis name isn't melvin, but vary simular

The ancient Hebrews as described in the Bible were in a constant battle between monotheism and polytheism. Archaeologists are always finding little statues of 'other gods' where they lived, and the Old Testament is full of references to them. Kinda like the middle eastern version of tikis.

I know what awaits all of you in hell (because I watched the last South Park movie).

Satan has huge luaus, everyone sings Hukilau and drinks too much.

That does not sound all that bad does it.

[ Edited by: captnkirk 2005-07-11 16:54 ]

This whole 'thing' damn well better be pagan otherwise I'm selling my chisels and burning all my bamboo.

Like so many things in this world, it's all in the eye of the beholder. Me personally, I don't think of or consider
tiki's pagan. Just great art that thankfully is not completely understood or appreciated by the mainstream. I think the automobile is much more pagan in our society than a tiki could ever be.

Pagans and heretics and infidels.

I think Pagans are the folks who are still practicing their old religion after they've been conqured.

Heretics are the folks coming up with a new religion that threatens the status quo.

Infidels are the folks who didn't come along after you created your new religion and it became the status quo.

SPLITTERS!!!!!

On 2005-07-09 16:43, nuimaleko wrote:
Tikis by and large are seen as works of art much as statues of Greek or Egyptian gods are no longer worshiped but seen as objects of beauty and a connection to what is considered a high point in world civilization. Tikis also represent modern America's desire for relief from the presures of the modern world and an escape into a fantasy past.
Just my opinion.

This is by far the most interesting point I've seen! Ya know? I've never even thought of compairing statues of ancient Greek mythology to the Polynesian tikis. You are so correct!

And, for anyone interested...I think I need a Melvin tiki. I will also need a wife who will whip herself into a frenzy, because mine simply wont. It's really sad.

And, can I use ketchup or BBQ sauce for lambs blood? I mean, I'll probably be cooking out during the ritual feast anyway.

that long haired white dude with holes in his hands and feet... some folks collect tons of that memorabilia which makes it kinda kitschy, though not pagan. had one the disposable income, one could collect mexican wrestling masks, but avoid praying to them. had one the mucho deluxo disposable income, one could also collect mexican wrestlers, have them stuffed and use them to display the mexican wrestling masks for a travelling exhibit. one may consider that kind kitschy with no pagan intent...

i had an acquaintance that drove around with a mannequin dressed in a nun's habit. the "nun" always sat in the back seat. the driver collected tin as articles of faith.

collecting tiki mugs is cool cause you could fill them with ice cold water and pour it on your significant other while they take a nice warm shower... not pagan

Think about it....who cares?

If you have a book on Nazism, and it has a swastika on the cover, does it make you a Nazi to own that book? No.

If you have a Bhuddah statue, does it make you a Bhuddist? No.

So if you have a Tiki statue, does it make you anything other than what you choose to be? No.

Pagan or not, it is a little wooden (Or ceramic) object and the only significance it has is what you give it.

Fun topic!

I love the point about the similarities between our obsession and images from mythology.

On the other hand, we have threads where people fall all over themselves about repatirating Tiki archeologic items to natives who still have an active faith system involving the same "mythological" Gods that we trivialize by buying charicaturized mugs and turn into chotchkies.

I wonder how Lutherans would feel if we made "Sneaky Jeezie" mugs with the image of their God on them and talked about which beverages we mix together to honor Him.

Very interesting, trying to find the line.

I guess I'll just have to live with the fact that no matter what I do or believe, I'm a heathen blasphemer to 85% or more of the world.

Now, where'd I leave my Tangaroa back scrathcer?

Now, where'd I leave my Tangaroa back scrathcer?

You see...I already have a "Moses' staff to serpent" swizzle stick, the Ronco "Let my people go" wall safe, some "Pope on a Rope" body soap and "The Baby Cheeses" fondue set.

I need one of those back scratchers.

On 2005-07-10 15:48, Gigantalope wrote:
I always thought it would be fun to open a bar with cartoony religious icons all over.

One of my favorite bars in Cologne used be called "Voijtyla"(?), after the Pope at the time, and it was completely decked out in Catholic kitsch. Red velvet wall paper, candle nooks, statuary and crosses everywhere. But the best thing was the cocktail menu. They had about twelve nouveau cocktails, all with biblical names, and my fave concept was the "Immaculate conception":
A clear cocktail in a large Martini glass, with a cherry in it, and the glass had clear cerran wrap stretched over it. One had to pierce the plastic foil with a straw to drink it.
(Sorry, don't have the recipe)

My girlfriend has a website for religious kitsch called Cheesy Jesus. To me, enjoying the pop incarnations of any religion does not mean that you feel disrespect for it. It just means you have a sense of humor. Having a sense of humor and being a spiritual person at the same time does not exclude each other, it rather prevents you from becoming dogmatic, and the religion from becoming stagnant and stale.

I feel great respect for Polynesian religion, and believe that Polynesian Pop will inspire some people to dig deeper and give it new exposure and energy.

WWCD? What would Cheesus do...I like it.

I'm sorry, that just struck me funny @;-)

Cheesy Jesus

On 2005-07-23 02:58, Mystiki wrote:
WWCD? What would Cheesus do...I like it.

WWJD...Why Waste Jack Daniels???

WWJD...Why Won't Jerry (springer) Disappear???

WWJD...Wet Willy's...Juicy Digits...

WWJD...Wrinkled Weenies are Just Disgusting...

WWJD...Warped and Weird...Johnny Depp...

WWJD...Dislexia Justify Would What???

WWJD...Were We Just Depressed???

WWJD...We Want Jelly Donuts...

Any more???

I always remind people that both the Christians and the Muslims were trying to drive the infidel out of the Holy Land during the course of the Crusades.

And never mind the ritual cannibalism involved in Christianity...

WWJD...Willy Weinstein's Jewish Deli

WWJD...Walter Washington's Jock Disinfectant

The Catholic religion has been, throughout history, the best marketing firm known to man. True, some horny priests have managed to tarnish the image some, of late. Severely lacking a sense of humor, though.

My God has a sense of humor. How else could I explain my existence?

WWJD...Washington Waste Justified Daily

[ Edited by: Tik_Nado 2005-07-26 12:59 ]

Since the umod feature doesn't appear to be working - I'll cast my vote here:
Please delete this topic.

It has degenerated into a light mocking of Christianity.
It is contributing nothing to this board except a rickety soapbox on which to point and laugh from.

I see plenty of mockery of many other things. Including my precious Jack Daniels. WWJD WE WANT JACK DANIELS!