Where's the beef?

Don't pull your thang out
Unless you came to bang.
Don't even bang
Unless you came to get your thang.

[ Edited by: purple jade 2006-03-20 21:35 ]

"Don't even bang unless you plan to hit something
Bombs over Bagdad"

What the hell is THIS thread about?

DawnTiki, I appreciate your effort at explaining/clarifying, but I really have no idea what Thor him/herself was trying to say!
(Kinda like the "volcano" bowl post, Thor, you gotta think these things out better before you post 'em...)

"Can You Hear Me Now?" god damn cell phones! What this all about Z?

Nothing like sitting around singing OutKast songs on the eve of War! Goodtimes.

I don't believe 'Thor', as an actual human exists. She/He/it is really something like a random number generator. But instead of generating numbers, she/he/it generates random English-like strings of words.

Example:

Thor's Thread name: "I think that the pan is limping"
Thor's Post to said thread: "But not without the deduction".

Talkie-Tiki, is that you?
I feel like this has all happened before.

On 2003-03-20 09:07, Tiki_Bong wrote:
I don't believe 'Thor', as an actual human exists. She/He/it is really something like a random number generator. But instead of generating numbers, she/he/it generates random English-like strings of words.

Example:

Thor's Thread name: "I think that the pan is limping"
Thor's Post to said thread: "But not without the deduction".

Bong, this is a very reasonable theory. If you look into the 3rd page of the "is it cool 2 be real" thread, you'll see he/she/it has suddenly become "Galbee Thor". I just Googled "galbee" and got some references to a Korean restaurant in LA and a French word meaning "curved". I give up...

em

Dude, what's galbee?!?

Thor, I think it's time for you to leave the bar. As they say in nightclubs in the North East of England, "You're a bit young. You've had too much to drink. Now f*ck off."

Trader Woody

Well, I would like to apologize for the harshness of my comments in the other thread, but it was in response to the harsh comments that proceeded it. I honestly dread any harm that the war causes to any persons, Iraqi, American, British, or from any other place - locals or Republican Guards.

Any lives lost are too many. My mistake was sinking to the level of the thread, and for that I am sorry. I have learned my lesson.

I am going to let down my condescendingly witty wall of defense for a second and comment on my behavior on this forum. Although I enjoy the subculture and all of its historical, cultural, and entertainment value, but when the subject comes to politics, there are some comments that I feel to passionately to let slide.

There is a difference between being patriotic and loving the freedom that living in a democratic society provides and being jingoistically gung ho and blind to the negative affects that the government that represents us can create world-wide. I honestly believe that it is the imperialistic capitalist system, mainly developed in the United States, that has directly and indirectly caused much of the world's economic inequality, human suffering, and political injustice.

Yes, there are groups of people around the world that would love to see the United States destroyed, and in order to protect this country and in effect democracy, this country will take aggressive, pre-emptive actions (which many people may disagree with) to prevent any future domestic harm. As patriotic citizens, many people feel that wholeharted support of these actions is the best stance to take.

But we have to take into consideration the fact that this American freedom is due to the victimization of millions of people in the past few centuries, from Native Americans to the factory workers in maquiladoras and sweatshops in Saipan. From African slaves to the civilian casualties of the U.S. sanctions against Iraq.

As an American citizen I am torn between the bacchanalian celebration of life that my citizenship bestows on me and a sense of guilt for not doing everything I can to give back whatever was given to me unfairly. How can I justify driving a car and using oil? How can I justify being employed by the University of California, a major player in the defense industry? Yes, this is liberal guilt, but liberal guilt is better than apathy or greed, which is what I see in many supporters of the war.

At a recent anti-war rally in downtown San Diego, many people drove by, giving the protesters the finger, faces red with anger(One man called us homosexuals). The majority of these people were white, and drove expensive cars. Maybe the poorer, non-white war supporters were keeping their mouths shut. But I don't think so.

My response to these people who feel obliged to yell at peaceful protesters: hate the game, not the player. We are not protesting war-supporters. We are protesting the use of force for peaceful purposes. Yes some people say "Drop Bush, not Bombs," but we can put them in the same category as the guy who called protesters homosexuals. Most protesters are doing what they can to make sure that the oppositional voice is heard, since it isn't getting expressed on the media or by the government. We agree with the majority of the world that force is not the best option in destroying WMDs in Iraq, or removing Hussein from power, or killing terrorists, or whatever the United States government is exactly trying to accomplish in the Middle-East.

In December I was working with fifth-graders in an underpriveledged school district. One boy told me that his brother worked in the defense industry, and that he was going on vacation in April because we would be going to war. A fifth grader told me that in December.

What I really want, so that I can sleep at night knowing everything is OK, is for someone in the government to provide an honest, reasonable explanation for why dropping bombs in a large city and sending troops into another country without the support of most of the world is the best option.

With all of the evidence that I have seen and read, I honestly believe that the people in charge of the United States are removing Saddam Hussein from power so that we can have access to the oil, create huge contracts for businesses that the government representatives and appointees are heavily invested in, and to correct a situation that was created the last time the United States was involved in Iraq. The war on terror provides a magnificent cover-up for the invasion. So Saddam Hussein has weapons of mass destruction. Half the countries in the world do, but this is the only one that we must invade as soon as possible. This hasn't been justified yet. If you have the answer, please feel free to explain it to me.

I have family in the military. Fortunately, they weren't deployed to the middle east. I cringe at the thought of another 19 year old with great potential being killed in the logistic maelstrom of U.S. military movement. But we can't honor the American soldiers and simultaneously perceive the Iraqis as a faceless enemy, doing all wrong.

I don't have the answers, but I am working through things. So no more snide comments of one-upmanship. If I disagree with your politics, I will say so outright.

Enough politics. Let's get back to the "fun."

I am not going to explain past posts. If you don't understand them, then ignore them. Don't blame me for writing stupid, obscure things. I don't get 90% of the references on these posts, but I don't criticize the authors.

Seriously.

[ Edited by: Thor on 2003-03-21 23:44 ]

Thor,

Thanks very much for the explanation. That was a crude thread unworthy of Tiki Central from the very start, but it was your joke made explicity at the expense of 12 recently dead men which was particularly shocking.

I understand your motives, though, and absolutely agree that a life is a life, no matter what nationality they are. Personally, I'd have been very very happy if the intial strikes had got Saddam, and no more action needed to be taken. Unfortunately that's not been the case, but am gratified that every effort seems to have been made to get Iraqis to surrender rather than die in the 'turkey shoots' of the last Gulf War, and that the bombs really do seem to be hitting non-residential buildings.

Anyway, thanks again for your thoughts and no hard feelings, eh?

Trader Woody

I try to stay away from the political threads, people just end up getting pissed off and insulting, no one ever gets any resolve from them. Anyway, Thanks Thor for taking the time to write such a long heart felt honest post, no matter how unpopular your beliefs might be here. You wrote about issues that I feel very strongly about but can't seem to verbalize them as well as you did. I am glad that Hanford locked that thread, it was an insulting topic. I found your post no more out of line than any of the other posts in that stupid thread. Peace Out! - Dawn

On 2003-03-21 14:35, Thor wrote:
Dude, what's galbee?!?

Hi Thor, here it is:

On 2003-03-19 19:07, Thor wrote:
I once ran across a webpage advertising a Minnesota summer camp for sexually-active Christian teens.

I am not making this up! (Seriously.)

-Galbee Thor

Hey, would I lie to you?

emski.

I can tell that the vast majority of those responding to this thread were either not alive yet, or infants during the Vietnam war.

I do not condone the killing of innocents, but until you wear the uniform, you have no understanding of what the soldier is thinking when he/she sees his fellow Americans demonstrating against what he/she is ordered to undertake.

Just as any era becomes vogue and turns to make believe dress up (ie rock-a-billy, swing dance, cowboys and indians), I believe a majority of the demonstrators against the war, are only attempting to recreate scenes they've seen pictures of or read about during the Vietnam war.

Enjoy your freedom - someone else died to give it to you...

Bong,
Well said. I will leave it @ that.

I will agree that many of the protesters are there because they are inspired by the imagery from the late 60s, and wish to be a part of or continue that tradition. There are also people serving in the military today, who were inspired by the imagery in movies, or by the tales of their fathers and grandfathers who served, or perhaps even by the tales of James Michener, and they wish to continue those traditions also.

That is how our culture evolves, by being inspired about the past stories and traditions that surround you, and deciding to do your bit to continue those that mean the most to you. Most of us are inspired by the tiki design and imagery from 50 years ago, and have chosen to try to continue those traditions.

I live in the DC area, and I love reading the various news stories about the various groups - whether conservative or liberal- who come to the Mall area with their buses and signs, to make their voices heard. I do attend some of these events, sometimes because I support the cause, and sometimes out of curiosity even though I have no real business being there (best example: the Million Man March that Farrakhan organized.) I love listening to the speakers, and doing my own judgement of which ones have reasonable and sound opinions, and which ones are the angry ranters. I can always find examples of each, no matter what the cause/protest is.

I do think there is one big difference between the war protesters of today versus those of the late 60s. Back then, it was common for those against the war to show pure hatred and hurl words such as "Baby Killers" to anybody who was wearing a military uniform. That attitude is now almost vanished, and I hope it stays that way. Most of the speakers I heard last week made sure to say that it was not the soldiers they were against, but were either against the policies of the current administration, or just simply voicing their concerns. I do still think that a few of the speakers were angry ranters, but at least that anger was not directed at the soldiers.

I could have gone to the Mall this weekend, and sat and listened to either the pro-Bush gathering or the anti-Bush gathering, and possibly a few other groups who were in town. Instead I went bowling, ate sushi, visited the Honolulu and Poli-Tiki, read Bust magazine, and watched the Bristol race on tv. Traditions and freedoms, some old, some new, and I'm thankful for all of them.

Vern

[ Edited by: ikitnrev on 2003-03-24 01:57 ]

Tiki_Bong,

I will readily admit that, having never been employed by the United States armed forces, I have no idea what our soldiers feel when they see protesters. I hope that they understand that the majority of the protests are targeted at the policies of the government, not the support of troops.

Peace protesters do not cheer the demise of soldiers. They criticize the reasons for putting soldiers in harm's way. Unfortunately, critics of protesters often collude these two ideas. I hope that you, and our soldiers abroad, can see the difference.

I will also readily admit that protesters, myself included, are influenced by the actions of past protesters, not just limited to the Vietnam war. This is not saying much. Everyone is influenced by the past, including soldiers, war supporters, and the president. Where I disagree with you is your assumption that people around the world are voicing dissent in order to be "in vogue." Have you asked them why they are protesting? Does the possibility exist that they are as adamant in their opinions as the people who decide to support and join the military?

To assume that those who oppose the invasion of Iraq are any less serious than those who support it is insulting to all who desire a truly democratic process.

Enjoy your freedom - someone else died to give it to you...

Yes, many people have fought to further the pursuit of freedom. The horrible fear of many protestors is that any deaths caused by Operation Iraqi Imperialism, be they of soldiers or civilians, are not in the name of freedom but in the name of plutocratic capitalist oppression.

The list of people who fought for my freedom, by the way, does include many more than just soldiers who were sent into battle. It includes victims of prejudice like Balbir Singh Sodhi, Medgar Evers, and Matthew Shepard. It includes activists for workers' rights like Eugene Debs, Elizabeth Gurley Flynn and Cesar Chavez. It includes Elizabeth Cady Stanton, Martin Luther King, Jr., Eleanor Roosevelt and Sojourner Truth. It includes victims of a corrupt U.S. justice system like Nicola Sacco, Bartolomeo Vanzetti, Kevin Nigel Stanford and Roger Corman.

It also includes victims of oppression at the hands of the United States Government, from the Hawai'ian Kingdom to WWII Japanese-American internees to the 600 prisoners who are being refused access to lawyers in Guantanamo Bay.

Recent actions of the United States government, including a withdrawal from the International Criminal Court, the threat to civil liberties posed by the passing of the Patriot Act, and the blatant disregard of the opinions of the United Nations (read: rest of the world) refute any claim that the state has for protecting the freedom of its citizens.

I said to myself, here are a people who have suffered for three centuries. We can make them as free as ourselves, give them a government and country of their own, put a miniature of the American constitution afloat in the Pacific, start a brand new republic to take its place among the free nations of the world. It seemed to me a great task to which we had addressed ourselves.

But I have thought some more, since then, and I have read carefully the treaty of Paris, and I have seen that we do not intend to free, but to subjugate the people of the Philippines. We have gone there to conquer, not to redeem.

We have also pledged the power of this country to maintain and protect the abominable system established in the Philippines by the Friars.

It should, it seems to me, be our pleasure and duty to make those people free, and let them deal with their own domestic questions in their own way. And so I am an anti-imperialist. I am opposed to having the eagle put its talons on any other land.

             -Mark Twain  

[ Edited by: Thor on 2003-03-24 04:27 ]

On 2003-03-24 02:17, Thor wrote:
Tiki_Bong,

Where I disagree with you is your assumption that people around the world are voicing dissent in order to be "in vogue."

To assume that those who oppose the invasion of Iraq are any less serious than those who support it is insulting to all who desire a truly democratic process.

The list of people who fought for my freedom, by the way, does include many more than just soldiers who were sent into battle. It includes victims of prejudice like Balbir Singh Sodhi, Medgar Evers, and Matthew Shepard. It includes activists for workers' rights like Eugene Debs, Elizabeth Gurley Flynn and Cesar Chavez. It includes Elizabeth Cady Stanton, Martin Luther King, Jr., Eleanor Roosevelt and Sojourner Truth. It includes victims of a corrupt U.S. justice system like Nicola Sacco, Bartolomeo Vanzetti, Kevin Nigel Stanford and Roger Corman.

It also includes victims of oppression at the hands of the United States Government, from the Hawai'ian Kingdom to WWII Japanese-American internees to the 600 prisoners who are being refused access to lawyers in Guantanamo Bay.

Thor,

I would like to make a couple of points regarding your reply. First, I never stated an "assumption that people around the world...", any assumptions you made about my assumptions were incorrect. My implication would be U.S. citizens.

Second, your statement "To assume that those who oppose the invasion of Iraq are any less serious than those who support it is insulting to all who desire a truly democratic process" is a bit odd.

Let me see if I get your line of thought. You can exercise your right to free speech, but I cannot. Is this what your saying?

And lastly, you list a number of people you say have fought for "your freedom", such as Balbir Singh Sodhi, Medgar Evers, and Cesar Chavez. When I met you at Baxdog's party, you were as white as George Bush.

This statement is typical of the liberal guilt trip. It goes something like this "man, I'm white but I really want to be something else, because then I can get some sort of sympathy. I feel so guilty for not being of color".

And before you drag out liberal offensive measure number 2, let me cut you off at the pass, I'm not a racist, my wife is Asian.

Isn't TIKI vogue? (now)

On 2003-03-24 02:17, Thor wrote:
Peace protesters do not cheer the demise of soldiers. [ Edited by: Thor on 2003-03-24 04:27 ]

Gee Thor, you should visit Canada! Then you can not only hear peace protesters cheering the demise of British and American soldiers, you can hear them cheering the demise of the victims of 9-11! It's a wunnerful place I live in, a place where every imaginable degree of virulent hatred towards your country, from people who to all other appearances are rational, can be witnessed on a daily basis.

Peace protesters come in every shape and size, including the kind of bastard that makes you want to go home and take a shower after hearing them. Make no mistake.

aloha,
em.

Um, cheering for the death of americans? Are you sure? What kind of freaky behaviour altering mushrooms are those Vancouver protesters eating?

Anyway, I don't really want to contribute any more to this thread - Tiki Central is becoming Politics Central - But I don't want our American friends to think we're all insane Anti-american freaks, which your post kinda made it sound like. I assume you were exaggerating to make a point.

Now, I gracefully bow out of this conversation. I can't help but read these threads, but more and more they are making my Tiki Central experience less, uh, Tiki.

I come here to escape, not to argue.

[ Edited by: purple jade 2006-03-20 21:36 ]

On 2003-03-24 02:17, Thor wrote:
Peace protesters do not cheer the demise of soldiers.

[ Edited by: Thor on 2003-03-24 04:27 ]

Thor, you scare me. I thought your disgusting Anti-American comment in the locked thread was made through ignorance or confusion but from your looooong explanations, I can see you know better. Now, that comment scares me even more.

I'll not talk politics too much here because, first, I'm not a politician, second, we don't have all the facts, and third, I don't expect everyone to think as I do. All these reasons are why my pet peve is stars speaking their beliefs, at say, award shows.

It was nice, however, to hear my thoughts on this war echoed in my priest's sermon last Sunday. There is such a thing a being over passive and evil knows where to be. War is a necessary evil and you can't have peace if your neighbor is trying to kill you. Standing back and watching injustice happen is just as bad as participating.

Please, everyone pray for our troops. They are fighting a dirty fight in which the enemy dosen't care for even his own people. We don't use innocents as human shields or even cheer and laugh over our enemies bodies. Again, please pray.

[ Edited by: laney on 2003-03-24 14:24 ]

On 2003-03-24 12:49, tikifish wrote:
Um, cheering for the death of americans? Are you sure?...I assume you were exaggerating to make a point.

Not at all Tikifish. LONG before Iraq, I was hearing these sentiments expressed by many people here. I dumped two friendships over this, and was told only last night that the death of US and UK soldiers was a happy event. I bit my tongue - she was a friend of my wife's and our guest for the evening. "Commonplace" is the only word for this kind of thing out here.

I am sorry to be revealing it in this forum, and am going to take your excellent advice and shut up about all things political. Really. I'm fed up with it too, and try only to respond when I see or hear patent crapola expressed about how everyone on the Left are angels and everyone conservative is some kinda Nazi trailer trash. I get enough of it right on the streets of Vancouver.

love, devotion, surrender,
emspace.

I have many fond memories of visiting British Columbia as a small boy in the early 60's. Bushart (sp) gardens was a favorite place to go for me - and I'm not even gay...

This discussion went way off topic. I think it started as a quest for meat, so let's get back to the subject... http://www.hatsofmeat.com

Unfortunately, ManBeef.com no longer exists and has been debunked:
http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/hoaxes/manbeef.htm

Nothing beats meat!

On 2003-03-24 16:11, Tiki_Bong wrote:
I have many fond memories of visiting British Columbia as a small boy in the early 60's.

Hey Bong,

BC is still beautiful, and has many beautiful people. Unfortunately, it has also become in many ways quite the collection of freaks since the early 60s. Everyone in Canada who wants to preach to the choir of the Left (and be preached to) ends up here; a most welcoming atmosphere exists for whiners of every stripe, e.g. an activist organization set up specifically to agitate for the payment of hourly union wages to addicts when the movie industry sets up shots in neighborhoods frequented by addicts. They have promised to sue the production houses that use Vancouver if they don't come through (good idea, let's drive another industry away!).

Picture it: "'Scuse me sir, are you an addict? Because if you are I have a nice fat paycheck here..." I s**t you not...but I promised to shuddup about politics or folly-tricks as the Rastaman sez.

:) em.

Laney,
I read your post before you edited it, and it was very well said. I agree with you 100%.

I don't think people realize it is a contradiction, to support the troops, and turn around and condemn the war. It belittle's the very thing they are trying to do, protect and defend.

"The Teamsters are helping Mr. Moore into the trunk of his limo." Steve Martin

[ Edited by: suzywong on 2003-03-25 10:20 ]

Thor, are you a college student?

It is NOT a contradiction to support the troops and then go demonstrate against a war. It is the essence of a functioning democracy.

Each soldier has made a personal commitment to follow orders regardless of their personal beliefs. No military can function properly without that commitment and we've now seen the tragic consequences for us when a soldier betrays that commitment. Furthermore, the military does not decide to take action on it's own. That decision is made by the President, aka the Commander in Chief.

The beautiful thing we have in this country is that our President cannot just decide to go to war. He has to make the case and answers to us, the citizens of the US. We are ultimately responsible to be the check against abusive use of our military. Democracy won't work if we don't do our part.

Any demonstration against war in our democracy is useless if it's directed at our military, it's not their decision, it was the President's!

Iraq does not have that balance, their citizens are not allowed to disagree with Saddam. That is why we feel justified to ask their soldiers to betray that commitment.

I admire the commitment that fellow citizens have made to serve in our military and support them wholeheartedly. I also recognize my part in this is to be aware and demand my leader makes the case for this war and any other military action to insure our soldiers are not put in harms way needlessly or without good cause. If he fails to do so, it's not just my right to express my disagreement, it's my responsibility to the troops who have surrendered their right to pick and choose what they will do for us.

I'm hearing reports all over now that it looks like thousands of pissed off Iraqis may end up taking Basra before any of us can....the "Fedayeen Saddam" had been firing mortars on them (their own people!) to try to squash the uprising. British popped those Baathist mortar positions for the citizens with triangulating radar sights on their 155's (these can actually hone the exact trajectory of an enemy artillery round back to the position it was fired from and turn that data into an algorithm which sets the azimuth of your artillery automatically to hit that other position with 3-yard accuracy...amazing technology) . Good for the Brits...and good for the common Iraqi people. The jig is up.

I dumped two friendships over this, and was told only last night that the death of US and UK soldiers was a happy event.

Wow, emspace, you need some new friends. You're welcome to come to Toronto and visit us anytime. I promise that me and my AMERICAN husband won't be cheering anything but more Mai Tai's for everyone.

I hear the French and Germans are boycotting American goods. Well, see if I buy any guillotines or gas chambers from them!

Trader Woody

[ Edited by: DaneTiki 2009-08-30 19:23 ]

On 2003-03-25 14:01, tikifish wrote:

I dumped two friendships over this, and was told only last night that the death of US and UK soldiers was a happy event.

Wow, emspace, you need some new friends. You're welcome to come to Toronto and visit us anytime. I promise that me and my AMERICAN husband won't be cheering anything but more Mai Tai's for everyone.

Tikifish, I'll say it again: you're the best. My American-born wife and I would be happy to join you for a drink some day (things are a bit nuts right now, move and baby coming). In-laws live in London, so we'll be to Toronto in the next year or so for sure.

aloha and mahalo,
emspace.

You got arrested, Dane? Groovy, man. That'll show that "plutocratic military-industrial complex" who's boss. :)

On 2003-03-25 15:21, DaneTiki wrote:
Finally, I'm getting pretty sick and tired of this old "protestors called soldiers 'baby-killers'" lie. Look at footage of anti-war demonstrations in the U.S. during Vietnam: All the big ones had combat veterans in them

Oh, well if you "saw the footage" of the Vietname anti-war demonstrations you must be an authority.

Sorry Sonny, but as a teenager I was there then. Now do your homework before your parents stop funding your liberal arts education.

On 2003-03-25 15:21, DaneTiki wrote:
As someone who's been to plenty of protests over the years, I can say with certainty that virtually no one in the anti-war movement or in the left in general is hoping for the demise of U.S. troops.

I'm so proud over how I bit my tongue (really my typing fingers) over this yesterday. I really am. What part of my posts did you choose to completely ignore? All of 'em I guess...

sigh,
em.

Alright Dane, then what is the answer? I'm pretty sure that walking around in the streets protesting and wasting the time of American police officers isn't it.

[ Edited by: DaneTiki 2009-08-30 19:23 ]

Boy, I can sure feel the love in here. sigh Nothing like watching people argue over politics and/or religion when no one is actually listening to anyone else. Pointless.
grumble
~poi

On 2003-03-26 15:25, PoiBoy wrote:
Pointless.

You're absolutely right because these politics/religions threads will never change the way anyone thinks about the subjects. However, it gives people a good chance to vent their frustrations in a part of Tiki Central well away from the main forums.

Perhaps we should have an extra forum for ill-thought-out-drunken ravings as well. I'll be the first to move my 'Pipe' thread over to it.

Trader Woody

On 2003-03-26 15:12, DaneTiki wrote:

It was hard to know which parts of your posts to ignore, emspace, because they're all so full of lies and distortions that it was impossible to see if you were ever actually writing in good faith about something that was truthful. As far as I could tell, you were not.

FUCK YOU!!! How dare you call me a liar? Are you referring to the descriptions of people I know personally who cheered the death of 9-11 victims as well as Coalition troops? I bit my tongue yesterday, but that was before I was called a liar...here's the full text of the reply I composed in order to vent my frustration:

On 2003-03-25 15:21, DaneTiki wrote:
As someone who's been to plenty of protests over the years, I can say with certainty that virtually no one in the anti-war movement or in the left in general is hoping for the demise of U.S. troops.

Er, what part of my posts did you not read DaneTiki? Again: the world is full of people who hate everything American, and all Americans, as a matter of course. I have personally known people I regarded as friends who cheered the deaths of the victims of 9-11. Political correctness virtually demands that any time the USA commits to a military action of any kind, the proper reaction is virulent and psychotic hate and rage. For that matter, anti-American bigotry kept simmering at a high level at all times is absolutely in vogue. I don't know what "movement" you're referring to, I'm just talking about what I know to be commonplace in my city of 3 million.

"Value freedom"? Oh Gawd, don't make me laugh! Correctness demands nothing less than our conformity and obedience at every level; to join you must attain to a vast and ever-changing catalog of beliefs and behaviours whose object is to leave you so utterly convinced of your own rectitude that you cannot possibly entertain an opposing viewpoint, or even a neutral one. I'm sorry, but the Left has become so transparently co-opted by sheep with a lot of insecurity, anger and envy; a great mass of joiners who desperately need the reassurance of the mob. If you're so freaking compassionate, what are you doing for the poor of your own community? What are you doing to fight HIV and starvation in Africa? What are you doing to promote the cause of literacy, the one thing that potentially has the power to defuse the kind of fanatical bigotry that infects the whole undeveloped world (and a good chunk of the developed world I might add)?

Well, I for one am not fooled. I have had to take a bath in the self-righteous raving of the Left for 13 years now, on every subject imaginable from "death to Yuppies" to "death to SUV drivers" (is it just me or is there a there a theme here?) since I moved to this open-air nuthouse on the West Coast, and I am trying to turn over a new leaf and ignore it, or if that proves impossible, take a stand for individuality and freedom of thought by mocking it mercilessly wherever it rears its ugly head.

I have said repeatedly that I don't want to participate in the political crap here at TC any longer, but I can't seem to help performing what I consider my duty, and I think the only way to desist is to pull the plug for a while. I have to move in a couple of weeks anyway...and by then the war will probably be over.

aloha, till we meet again,
emspace."

And having said that, goodbye. I get the feeling this thread will be locked down after this anyway.

sick of it all,
emspace.