E.C. Bali Hai Restaurant Tikis?

Does anyone recognize these tiki, 5 to 7 foot and carved wood?

I know we have some very educated urban archaeologists in the house...any clue or carver?
Supposedly these recovered from a Bali Hai restaurant on the east coast; NY,NJ,PA,DE,MD area? The photos are from an auction list, but I'm curious if they are truly from urban archeology or massed produced?

Mahaloz and Flip-flOp-fLipPp...

Those were discussed here:
http://www.tikicentral.com/viewtopic.php?topic=21678&forum=1

[ Edited by: TikiPhil 2007-01-02 15:13 ]

Chokest Mahaloz TikiPhil!

Your link provided all the information and more...I just wished I'd found it before posting this!

Sooo another batch fresh offda boat and inna conga line needa bar to call home???

Now back to more interesting NEWer topics....flip-flop-flip :D

This sucks. Obviously this auction house knows that they can bait Tikiphiles by proclaiming that these supposedly are from an old mainland restaurant. Somebody should shut that operation down, or up at least, or something!

Hi, these tikis are made on the East Coast a couple of times a year. We bought a set and had them shipped to us in California. They are made of a hard dense wood the one with the thumbs up weighs around 80 pounds. We think they are really cool and were happy to put a set of six into Dan's jungle room. When we bought ours they were direct from the guy who carved them and they were never misrepresented. There is one that looks like the Trader Vic's salt and pepper and Trader Vic's is carved into the back so if some jerk wanted to try and pass it off they could try. Wendy

On 2007-01-07 17:56, danlovestikis wrote:
Hi, these tikis are made on the East Coast a couple of times a year..... When we bought ours they were direct from the guy who carved them...

Wendy, sweetie, are you sure about that? What's his name and where does he carve? Is he American or Asian? I still strongly believe they are Poly-Asian import Tikis, you just don't get that kind of hardwood in this size on these shores...

On 2007-01-07 19:23, bigbrotiki wrote:

Wendy, sweetie, are you sure about that? What's his name and where does he carve? Is he American or Asian? I still strongly believe they are Poly-Asian import Tikis, you just don't get that kind of hardwood in this size on these shores...

I live on the East Coast as do some other's here. I can honestly state that we've got plenty of tree's big enough to make these guys look pretty tiny. There are numerous chain saw carvers in Maine, for instance who make huge bears and full size totem poles. Sure they are copies but that doesn't mean that they can't be "real carvings"

Tikisgrl

Just a quick edit carvers website borrowed from GMAN - Carver's forum

[ Edited by: Tikisgrl 2007-01-07 20:37 ]

Good point Tikisgrl! There's 5 oak trees in my yard, 2 in front, 3 in back, big enough to carve the guys in question. Easily.

And not sure what kind of wood...probably a softwood...but my guess is the guys in this photo aren't imported either.

TT

On 2007-01-07 20:21, Tikisgrl wrote:

On 2007-01-07 19:23, bigbrotiki wrote:

Wendy, sweetie, are you sure about that? What's his name and where does he carve? Is he American or Asian? I still strongly believe they are Poly-Asian import Tikis, you just don't get that kind of hardwood in this size on these shores...

I live on the East Coast as do some other's here. I can honestly state that we've got plenty of tree's big enough to make these guys look pretty tiny. There are numerous chain saw carvers in Maine, for instance who make huge bears and full size totem poles. Sure they are copies but that doesn't mean that they can't be "real carvings"

Tikisgrl

[ Edited by: tekoteko 2007-01-07 21:35 ]

I was not suggesting that these Tikis are not "real carvings", and I was referring to TROPICAL hardwoods, of which the Poly-Asian Tikis are usually carved from.

Until someone finds proof that these are actually carved here, I will hold on to my theory that these are Asian imports. If the seller falsely claims they are from old restaurants, I am sure he will have no compunctions about telling a story about some local carver. The use of organic elements like human-looking hands, and legs folded in Buddha position are tell-tale signs. :) Please convince me otherwise, though.

Heres another "ancient Tiki", in kona wood??, no less, :lol: http://cgi.ebay.com/60-Tall-Solid-Kona-Wood-Hawaiian-Tiki-Money-God_W0QQitemZ260071949911QQihZ016QQcategoryZ29460QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem At least someone (hope TC'er) is grilling the lister for details... Aloha, Freddie PS Funny how they replicate new, madeup designs...looks to be a KC Co. knockoff...

[ Edited by: HOUSE OF KU 2007-01-08 11:16 ]

On 2007-01-08 11:13, HOUSE OF KU wrote:
...looks to be a KC Co. knockoff...

I will verify that for you:

Now go find some cool cocojoes stuff to post!

Buzzy

On 2007-01-08 11:49, Bay Park Buzzy wrote:

Now go find some cool cocojoes stuff to post!

Aloha BP Buzzy, Any preferences? :) You can PM me and I'll post on Coco Joe thread. Mahalo

[ Edited by: HOUSE OF KU 2007-01-08 12:17 ]

And again, this guy's rounded off, organic limbs and belly, all "off" in their proportions to each other (meaning not Tiki style proportions), just cry out Asian carver to me! These guys just don't get it.

Can I hear some opinions from carvers on this question?

And it is not a question of these being "carved well". Of course they are! Those Balinese (or whatever) carvers have been carving beautifully for generations. That is their very problem. They do not understand the "primitive" aesthetic, their craftsmanship is too smooth. They copy from small samples, but don't understand the style: For instance: The head of the Tiki is supposed to be much larger than the rest of the body--because it is the seat of mana (and ancestors had lots of that) These guys' bodies are too long and voluminous!

And looking at the steep price of that last one, it seems that the importer sells his statues cheap to other vendors, who then turn around and try to make a profit on e-bay with them (the "Money God"...yeah right, for the seller), so it will be hard to establish their origin. That's why I really want to know who this supposed East Coast carver is. I believe it is really the importer, who tells prospective buyers whatever they seem to want to hear!

[ Edited by: bigbrotiki 2007-01-08 22:37 ]

Well for my half-cents worth I totally agree with BigBro. The bellys and straight chests do not look
like anything I have seen in the area of "vintage" tikis. I have poured through hundreds and hundreds
of images and there is just something not right with these...the crossed legs for one thing..although
the first time I saw that carving I liked it. I know there are a lot of big logs in the USA but
I doubt whether the carver of these figures ever really studied "tikis" per se. So what am I trying
to say anyway...I dunno.

Sven I could not agree more, if they are from the East it’s the Far East.
Most all carvings from overseas leave little to be desired, they tend to emphasize the wrong elements and play down the important aspects of a Tiki, and they always look wrong or off.
In this case I suspect they are trying (hard) to be exact but for whatever reason these carvers have a very bad (small?) 2-D piece of reference, they are interpreting and adding what they feel are exotic elements and carving styles. If you look at the piece on E-bay obviously it’s supposed to be a Hawaiian God but look at what they did or did not include. First the carving proportions are backwards and it looks like it was worked upside down and they ran out of wood at the squished head, the legs are way to long, the belly is too fat, it looks like it has breasts as apposed to a jutting chest, everything is rounded unlike the originals which could have passed for modern cubist sculpture, the head dress looks like ropes which get continually smaller until they become the eyes which are totally undefined as if the carver had no understanding of what it was he was supposed to be making, again this tells me the person doing this had no way to relate to what they were viewing, you can also see he “got” the teeth as teeth and these were carved with a certain confidence but unfortunately not the correct figure 8 symmetry. Having said this (and I could go on) it is the best one of these things I’ve seen, where ever these things come from.

The first batch of “Bali Hai” carvings is the saddest group of (Tiki) carvings ever, all I can think is what a waste of wood, the poor tree probably had to grow for hundreds of years in an exciting jungle before it was chopped down and had this curse put upon it. I realize I am opinionated but for the life of me can not understand how anyone thinks these things even remotely look interesting or Tiki. Another thing that gives away the foreign origin of these is their price, you couldn’t buy the wood commercially (let alone pay and adult in the U.S. for the time to carve this) and yet the same ones come up a few times a year. It looks like the E-bay one might mark a change in the old version. Also think how Westerners (Americans) interpret Tiki, even when poorly done, they totally focus on different weird aspects of the “God”, giant teeth, or a crazy scariness, for instance.
I could go on and on…

My very best Alohas

Bosko

What got me the most were the hands, specially the one on the shorter guy. It just didn't seem right. I agree with Bosko and Sven.

Bosko and Sven (side note to the venerable Sven: I'm not worthy!!!), I share your visceral reactions to these tikis (if you will). But why is that? (< philosophical question alert)

What would really be helpful/instructive (not to mention a lot of fun) -- probably to a broad TC audience -- would be a really incisive discussion about the categories of tiki. The topic might even be worth its own thread. From the highest altitude, I think I can identify three broad categories of tiki: traditional tiki and its replicas (historically correct Polynesian art), midcentury Polynesian pop and its replicas (Enchanted Tiki Room and Mai Kai "artifacts," eg), and modern hypercommercialized sacrilege (such as the tikis imaged on the last page). There may be another category or two that I'm not hip to, and there will be many subcategories.

Ideas?

Venerably,
Bahookahuna

Hmmm. Right of the bat I would say you forgot the fourth category, to be found in Creating Tiki: The Tiki Revival Tikis, inspired by mid-century Polynesian pop, and then to some degree by authentic, ancient Tikis. It ranges all the way from highly stylized creations like Bosko's to the very-close-to-the-old-original carvings of Basement Kahuna, and truly is as noteworthy and commendable as any of the two positive categories (ancient carvings and Poly pop).

But the borders between good and bad style are very subjective and dependent on: Personal taste, a good eye based on experience, and on commitment to the matter at hand. The human need to categorize is inborn, I am prone to it myself, but until I write the Big Book of the Tiki revival to show what I deem worthy of being called Tiki (let's see..that'll take maybe ten years?), I will only occasionally voice critique, as in the case of the Poly-Asian carvings. I tried to reveal the "hypercommercialized sacrilege" style in my Un-Tiki thread, and it turned into mud slinging fest. And though I am bored by the un-differentiated, unconstructive back-patting that is very prevalent nowadays, I respect every Tiki enthusiast's right to personal likes and dislikes, and will only voice dismay in extreme, non-personal cases, where purely commercial motives and blatant ignorance of the style are apparent.

But let us one more time remind ourselves what Tikis originally are inspired by: Ancestor worship!
When a Tiki carving, a painting, or mug bears no trace of the mana of either ancient Tiki styles, OR the work of the mid-century Polynesian pop ancestors, it simply is not Tiki anymore. It's pop, it's art, it's kitsch, or what ever, but Tiki it's not. Respect the ancestors! That's your mana-mantra for today! :wink:

[ Edited by: bigbrotiki 2007-04-12 10:06 ]

Sven,

Thanks for the response. After hitting "Submit" on my comment last night, three things occurred to me: (1) I'd used "venerably" incorrectly (I'm a professional editor so this one kept me up late); (2) this topic has probably been covered in spades, both in these forums and elsewhere (I'm new to these forums!); and (3) "modern hypercommercialized sacrilege" isn't the best way of wording what I had in mind.

Regarding the word "modern," look at the decor at the new Mister Tiki's Mai Tai Lounge in San Diego. You find a very modern spin on tiki there -- their giant moai sports a neon nose-ring, the pufferfish lights are made of handblown glass and wear sunglasses...the place even includes some great Bosko stuff! So modern isn't what I meant by "modern." Instead what I had in mind is...let me see...soulless, corporate, or -- as you might put it -- forgetful of the ancestors (both the traditional stuff and its midcentury Poly pop interpretations; by the way, in my earlier comment I used the word "replicas" to include in the good categories all the recent Tiki Revival stuff that ISN'T forgetful of the ancestors).

Maybe the words "hypercommercialized sacrilege" are all right. The Poly-Asian tikis, for example -- to my own personal tastes -- "feel" commercial. That is, I imagine the commissioner of the pieces, and/or the artists, saying to themselves "Let's make some money" (in part dishonestly, it sounds like, by misrepresenting the statues' origins, both actual and stylistic), rather than the more pure "Let's make some money, but let's also generate some mystery, romance, adventure, nostalgia, and a potent and atmospheric sense of place." Commercial stuff -- I'm thinking, for another instance, of these new surfboard-shaped tikis, though I could be way off the mark by including those (anyone: feel free to correct me) -- would look at home in any equally corporate, soulless, and wannabe setting, like your beachtown neighborhood Friday's, perhaps. Commercial tikis are to noncommercial tikis as Jimmy Buffett is to exotica.

Yet lines get blurred, don't they? I notice that both Robertiki and Queen Kamehameha have purchased these guys, so that fifty years from now, during the next great Tiki Revival, the urban archeaologists of that day will unearth one of these things in some authentically-tiki-backyard-Bali-Hai known to have been erected by one of these respected tikiphiles made immortal on Tiki Central, and -- bam! -- today's Poly-Asian sacrilege will have become a genuine tiki-culture artifact to be prized and emulated by tiki purists wearing antenna space helmets and driving flying Mini Coopers.

[ Edited by: Bahookahuna 2007-04-12 16:53 ]

[ Edited by: Bahookahuna 2007-04-12 16:54 ]

"Respect the ancestors" Sounds good to me!

Sven,

If you have the time, would you do me the great favor of glancing at the tikis offered on this site: http://www.tropicaltikis.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=22, and telling me your impressions of them?

I know they're carved in Indonesia, but the designs look solidly American (modern) in origin. Are they Poly-Asian, or does the designer (if not the actual carver in Indonesia) seem to have had firsthand reference to at least the modern interpretation of Poly Pop?

To your experienced eye, are these good or not so good? I ask mainly because, as you might have guessed by this juncture, I've purchased one, and -- now that it's far too late -- want to know if a better-versed tikiphile would furl his brow, gnash his teeth, or nod in assent at them.

If you'd like to plead the fifth so as not to offend a local purveyor, that will make perfect sense to me and I won't pursue further.

Cheers.

I am not impartial, and it is obvious that I am heavily in favor of true vintage mid-century Tiki style. My appreciation for Tiki grew out of my encounter with Oceanic Arts, and the subsequent research fueled by it. But nowadays there are so many Tiki manufacturers out there, and even though this whole industry was (often unbeknownest) spurred by my book, the field is so convoluted that I cannot expect everyone to walk the line all the time, especially Tikiphiles that have to rely on mail order "brides" :) So here's my personal, subjective opinion of this specific product line:

They are not as bad as others, but not as good a some of the eminent carvers here on TC.
I find some of their designs acceptable, though not very creative. And I do not like glossy Tikis in general (there are exceptions) and certainly not painted ones, (especially with a pineapple on the forehead, or a bright red tongue), and those big teeth have become a tiresome cliche.

Again, I see a genericness in the pieces, caused no doubt by the cultural disattachment of the carvers being from Asia. I know this might sound ridiculous considering we are talking about a second hand pop culture to begin with, but to me it makes sense.

[ Edited by: bigbrotiki 2007-04-20 10:39 ]

Sven,

Thanks for the feedback. If it helps with your urban archaeological research for the next book, I can tell you that these (from Culbertson Imports) were indeed carved in Asia, specifically in Indonesia. You might even consider contacting Culbertson to see if they happen to know where TravelingJones's tikis come from. All things are possible. This might all end up in your "What To Avoid" chapter, of course.

That being said, I'm not sure the designs themselves are from Indonesia -- I think it's imaginable that a couple of Southern California guys, influenced by the same "new tiki idiom" that's all over the place and that you partly defined in your post, came up with the designs and then commissioned some Indonesian carvers to produce the goods. TravelingJones's tikis strike me as probably having been designed in Asia, while Culbertson's seem strongly influenced by the new directions in American tiki.

Look at some of the stuff coming out of Florida; PalmTreeCharlie, for example (http://www.tikis4u.com/). There, you have the same giant teeth, the pineapples on the foreheads, what Bosko called "crazy scariness" and ascribed to current American tiki interpretation, and a feature of the "new tiki idiom" you didn't mention but that I think belongs to the same genre -- what I call "the baboon look," of which my new tiki, by the way, is itself guilty. But PalmTreeCharlie is from Florida, and his tiki touchstones are, presumably, DisneyWorld's Enchanted Tiki Room, the Mai Kai, and other undefiled mid-century Poly Pop sites. So all those characteristics are, I would think, American in origin. Conversely, the pot bellies, wrong proportions, and too-humanlike trunks and limbs of TravelingJones' tikis are -- I would guess, as you guys did -- Asian. As someone else mentioned, you can see a probable influence from Buddhist statuary.

Oh, my tiki is also guilty of the giant tongue, which had to -- I think -- have sneaked into the idiom via exposure to images of Maori carvings. The Maori being from New Zealand, that feature is not completely un-South Pacific, though it may be un-mid-century Poly Pop (I'm not sure).

Lastly, my tiki is guilty of having been glossy. Really, really glossy. But you'll be relieved to know, when imagining all those glossy tikis gleaming away in backyards all over America, that the gloss almost completely weathers off with the first good rain.

You mentioned cutting your tiki teeth (if I may paraphrase) on Oceanic Arts. I cut my own starting in 1970 hunting for the Hidden Tiki in the shadow of the Goof at the Bali Hai, listening to the birds sing words and the flowers croon at Disneyland, sneeking guilty peeks at Les Baxter's "Soul of the Drums" album cover in various tiki living rooms around San Diego, overhearing "Le Sacre du Sauvage" on LP (played by the LP's original buyer), and with my siblings begging my parents to pull into the Hanalei Hotel parking lot so we could glimpse the lava rock waterfalls. And in the end, the goofiness, humor, and even painted features of our new tiki from Culbertson seemed to fit seamlessly into my own tiki story. Goofiness, humor, and paint, could all, after all, also describe any tiki from the Bali Hai or from that most iconic of all mid-century Poly Pop sites, Disneyland's Enchanted Tiki Room. Our new tiki even gets along well with the two PNG-style masks and pufferfish light from Oceanic Arts, and with the moai carved by Leroy Schmaltz's own two hands.

Come to think of it, even TravelingJones' tikis don't look half bad in Queen Kamehameha's spot-on backyard (which includes one of the finest backyard tiki bars I've ever seen; Bosko, are those a couple of yours on the wall?): http://www.tikicentral.com/viewtopic.php?topic=20143&forum=18&hilite=queen%20kamehameha%20backyard and http://www.tikicentral.com/viewtopic.php?topic=21678&forum=1

...so who knows?

Bahookahuna

Look not into the eyes of the idol...

[ Edited by: Bahookahuna 2007-04-23 20:15 ]

EYE know! :) ...what I like, and I put it in my book, and enough people liked it to get this Tiki thing on a roll. What can I say, I know that this is all fun and games, I am certainly not out to spoil any-body's fun. I am more into the art, others more into the drinking and partying, one would be boring without the other.
I choose to expound on my views here because I care, for obvious reasons, but what more can I say about this...

There is good tongue and there is bad tongue ( :D ), there is good teeth and there is bad teeth, and there is so-so bad and there is extremely bad, everyone has to decide for themselves. I cannot give absolution for what I don't like, but I still hope I am able to function as the benevolent big brother to the guidance seekers here.

Sven,

You're doing a great job!! Indeed, your book is at the top of my Christmas wish list. What an excellent resource you are, I'm sure to everyone here.

Thanks for the great banter.

Despite my newer-style backyard tiki (settled on also in part because it resonated with our 10- and 3-year-old), I'm also more into the traditional roots of tiki -- I appreciate more what inspired the first Poly Pop generation than how they, in turn, have inspired us -- so I still track with you.

Best,
Bahookahuna

A lot of these have the source for their style in Wayne Coombs at Mai Tiki. His style has been copied by a lot of Florida carvers. The teeth, the pineapple on the forehead, that's Wayne's. It may not be to your taste, but, it has spawned a lot of copies, and in the not so distant past, his carvings were the only ones out there. He shipped tikis everywhere and covered Florida. He was selling. He spawned a lot of imitators. When I see those on that site, and PalmTreeCharlie, I see Wayne Coombs. He would say rip off and he is pretty pissed off about it.

I really like Wayne, he is a great guy, and he has always stated that he was making the style that people were buying most. And there is a simple reason why I did not mention him. or the talented Benzart in the BOT. I aimed at describing the HEYDAY of Tiki, which was from the late 50s to the late 60s, and both of these guys are 70s carvers. And I can see that in their style, it just did not fit into the BOT.
This is NOT a critique of their work, just my way of being precise about the aesthetic period characterized in my book.

I have to say the only reason I bought the Book of Tiki 5 years ago of all places in a nei ghborhood swap meet is because of it's true charaterization of mid-century tiki style. I have tried to stay close to this understanding whenever I have purchased anything related to tiki. I think knowledge and education can only help us make wiser decisions in collecting.

I just saw the rest of this thread and from my point of view, I think both Sven and Bahookahuna, both have valid points and are right in manyways

Sven, I have all your books and agree on your take on Tiki And pop. Your books set the stage and bar for the rest of us to build our tiki worlds on. But I also agree in the personal part. I have seen may yards, bars that I wouldn't have, but all in all it does keep the tiki movement alive and they are having fun with it. Maybe good, maybe bad, but not everyone can afford all the offical, realistic OC items or witco items. In my Yard, I have Lamps By Ona, Kahaka, and many all original lamps from closed restaurants, I have statues from closed restaurants I have many by BK and a few news ones I like as well. I wish I could have done all OC, but on some level, even Bob and Leroy have some of their interputation in their carvings. This one that started the thread, I actually bought because I liked it, it has size and presence, it looked old as well. I did know it was new when I bought it. And it fit great in the spot I bought it for.

I think the great thing about Tiki is the way everyone makes it their own, from decor to drinks. And I think Sven you are a huge part of that even if you can't control where it goes or how it goes, the good thing is we all carry it forward and keep it going. Maybe im wrong, but that is just my opinion.

Amy
PS- Thanks Bahookahuna, glad you like my yard and bar, I worked hard on it and am very proud of it. Thanks to all the artists that I have items from, including BambooBen.

....MUST....CONTROL....TIKI...CULTURE....!!!! :( ARRRGH!

:) You are so right, I must make piece with ....reality.
But just to make clear, I don't get mad at the people that buy these, but at the DEALERS that offer these under FALSE PRETENSES. These lying, pretending, "I-am-not-sure-but-I-FEEL-that-this-piece-of-firewood-is-WITCO!", S.o.B.s really get my goat.

And I am also pointing out why stylistically the Asian carvings seem off to me, personally. But again, I do not blame the carvers, or even question their abilities. It is understandable that they don't get the Tiki thing. Who really does...(sniff, whimper,)

On 2007-05-07 15:37, bigbrotiki wrote:
....MUST....CONTROL....TIKI...CULTURE....!!!! :( ARRRGH!

:) You are so right, I must make piece with ....reality.
But just to make clear, I don't get mad at the people that buy these, but at the DEALERS that offer these under FALSE PRETENSES. These lying, pretending, "I-am-not-sure-but-I-FEEL-that-this-piece-of-firewood-is-WITCO!", S.o.B.s really get my goat.

And I am also pointing out why stylistically the Asian carvings seem off to me, personally. But again, I do not blame the carvers, or even question their abilities. It is understandable that they don't get the Tiki thing. Who really does...(sniff, whimper,)

Sven, LOL, I agree 100% Those who lie and cheat Tiki people are bad.You Know When I bought mine it was at half what they go on ebay for and I knew it was fake and the guy I got it from was on the east coast and did import them, atleast that is what he told me. So for me, it was a nice addition to my backyard, where it is overshadowed by all the cool items from the creative and talanted tiki artists.

You know, you are such an authority, think of all the people who have your books, including me. Who read what what you say, including me, You are an expert, You help set the standard, we will all try to get as close as we can :)

Amy

ps-, I am putting a paper bag over the head of my flat bellied, short armed, hard wood, asian made tiki guy this very instant! :wink:

[ Edited by: Queen Kamehameha 2007-05-07 17:38 ]

Hmmm, that's funny...all of a sudden I have nothing to disagree with in your last post! It somehow...rings so true, simple, yet eloquent...especially the last part! :) What can I say, if only all of the TC posts would......

No, nothing more to say, perhaps just (wait, there was a smiley for this, ah, here) :blush:

For what it's worth, these "Bali-Wood" Tikis have flooded the market here in Hawaii. I see tons of them all over the place. I can instantly tell them from the many other kinds of tiki found here. I honestly can say they suck ass. The carvers are technically skilled and the wood is of fine tropical hardwood that could not be purchased for these prices UN-CARVED. The designs and proportions are way off though and that's the dead giveaway to me. But the reason I don't like them is they are imported. Many of the sellers claim they are from the islands. And where the hell is the "island of the gods"? And by "Carved in the islands" they won't tell you they mean Philippines or Indonesia where the child who carved these wooden figures receives only a slightly better wage than their friends who work at the NIKE factory down the road.

I'm not trying to say it has to be from Hawaii to be "tiki/polypop" or even from the U.S. This is just a case of an American businessman making money off of the sweat and labor of the hard indigenous workers and gullibility and wealth of the American tikiphile.

There are many excellent tiki carvers here on TC, no need to go all the way to China to find one.

Well having been a Floridian that 'designed' and commissioned Asian carvers to make Tikis that I sold in the USA I'll jump in on this one. :D

Firstly I mostly agree with Sven on this one and will go so far as to say that these are from Indonesia (BaliWood I love that! :lol: ) and even though I have traveled extensively in ASEAN (and India) I've never been to Indonesia. But my folks have several times for long periods and hence our garden is filled with classic and modern Javanese and Balinese stone carvings. Centuries and generations of Indian religious and cultural influence on these carvers is hard to erase from the style they cultivated, and it is all too evident in their work which just doesn't work for Tiki. Though lest we forget that some parts of ASEAN are very close to -culturally and artistically- to Oceania. PNG, Borneo and even the Ifugao of Luzon, Philippines were not influenced by the Asian subcontinental style. So I have found that the carvers in Banaue generally get it right especially since their traditional local style is based on ancestor worship and mana (as they are descendants of headhunters). Hence I have many 'real' local pieces that look quite PNG......which of course is one of the styles that was utilized in the original Enchanted Tiki Room at Disney. :wink:

Meanwhile to be angry at utilizing these folk's artisan skills is a bit foolhardy as this is a traditional art-form and livelihood for them, with teenage boys being utilized solely as apprentices in this age old craft that is well affixed in their local cultures. Sports shoe making on the other hand is just capitalist exploitation :P

On 2007-05-09 05:04, AlienTiki wrote:

I'm not trying to say it has to be from Hawaii to be "tiki/polypop" or even from the U.S. This is just a case of an American businessman making money off of the sweat and labor of the hard indigenous workers and gullibility and wealth of the American tikiphile.

I hope that wasn't directed to Me AT, My yard is 90% product from people from this site, BK, Bosko, Ben, Ona, Kahaka, Many many others. I am sorry that they have been importing them to Hawaii but How do you know it's an american businessman?

People will buy what they like for whatever reason they want, it doesn't make them any less a fan or tikiphile. Its their individual right to do so, you can disagree, but calling me or anyone gullible is an insult and you asumed we didn't know what we bought, I certainly did. You can state an opinion without insulting anyone. What you said above is wrong.

Amy

[ Edited by: Queen Kamehameha 2007-05-09 13:22 ]

On 2007-05-08 14:39, bigbrotiki wrote:
Hmmm, that's funny...all of a sudden I have nothing to disagree with in your last post! It somehow...rings so true, simple, yet eloquent...especially the last part! :) What can I say, if only all of the TC posts would......

No, nothing more to say, perhaps just (wait, there was a smiley for this, ah, here) :blush:

Thanks Sven :D

I was affraid I might bait the Unscrupulous importer.:wink:

On 2007-05-09 13:15, Rattiki wrote:

Meanwhile to be angry at utilizing these folk's artisan skills is a bit foolhardy as this is a traditional art-form and livelihood for them, with teenage boys being utilized solely as apprentices in this age old craft that is well affixed in their local cultures. Sports shoe making on the other hand is just capitalist exploitation :P

You can try and defend your actions all you want. The reason any person would look outside of the U.S for skilled artisans is MONEY, PROFIT and GREED. So the question is did you pay these carvers a living wage? Did you give them nearly what they were worth? 500% profit for the importer isn't exactly fare to the artist and then to pass that work off as being "made in the islands" is just insulting. Give the artists credit for what they have done. Ah yes "capitalist exploitation".:P

Now I'm not saying this is your situation. I'm saying I don't agree with these business practices. So call me foolhardy all you like, if it will make you feel better. :lol:

On 2007-05-09 13:18, Queen Kamehameha wrote:

I am sorry that they have been importing them to Hawaii but How do you know it's an american businessman?

You can state an opinion without insulting anyone. What you said above is wrong.

Amy

[ Edited by: Queen Kamehameha 2007-05-09 13:22 ]

Amy my words were not directed at you, but the fact that you took them to heart speaks volumes.

I KNOW American businessmen are importing them because I have spoken to them personally and asked them where they got the carvings. They said they get several containers full every couple of months. The guy even told me he makes a killing. They said they fly to Bali pick out the carvings (all Hawaiian themed stuff turtles, whales and tikis) and the hard working carvers even help pack the crates.

So I never assumed anything, just stated an opinion and a very valid one. And I'm glad you boast your backyard is 90% filled with TC stuff. That’s fantastic, you are a true patron.

What I said was 100% right and for you to think American businessmen never take advantage of indigenous peoples or of the gullibility of the buyer is just naive.

I meant no offence to you Amy, and I'm sorry you took insult from my words.

Aloha and caveat emptor
E

Thanks AT, I appreciate it.

I bought mine from a guy in MD, who runs an import warehouse. I met him thru a friend in NY who knew I loved Tiki. He told me he imports them from Bali and Indonesia. He was Asian, from Malaysia. That is why I said "american businessman". I can see why some Businessman would buy these at this price and resell on ebay or other places. They are obviously doing well with these and its obvious that you don't have to be American to import and sell these.

I did take offense to the terms "gullibility of the American Tikiphile". I got exactly what I thought.I got a statue for 300.00. I thought it was a good deal and it was a nice item for the money, wood, heavy. sorta real looking. I happen to like it, its an impressive piece. I knew it was fake, but real wood. I didn't buy it to resell, and if I never sell it, I think I got a good deal for the $$. I do have many pieces from bosko, OC, Ona, many Statues from BK, Witco fountain real, Keigs witco carvings, A whole Bar by Bamboo Ben. and I can't even tell you how many statues, lamps, masks, etc from closed restaurants and bars.

I can tell you are passionate about this, as is the rest of us. but still you don't have to be insulting, someone might think its directed to them and it isn't and see what happens.... :)

Thanks for the clarification.

Amy

[ Edited by: Queen Kamehameha 2007-05-09 17:11 ]

[ Edited by: Queen Kamehameha 2007-05-10 15:31 ]

On 2007-05-09 15:26, AlienTiki wrote:
I was affraid I might bait the Unscrupulous importer. :wink:
You can try and defend your actions all you want. The reason any person would look outside of the U.S for skilled artisans is MONEY, PROFIT and GREED. So the question is did you pay these carvers a living wage? Did you give them nearly what they were worth? 500% profit for the importer isn't exactly fare to the artist and then to pass that work off as being "made in the islands" is just insulting. Give the artists credit for what they have done. Ah yes "capitalist exploitation".:P

Now I'm not saying this is your situation. I'm saying I don't agree with these business practices. So call me foolhardy all you like, if it will make you feel better. :lol:

My business practices are above board, and I deal with a family that I like and yes I paid them what they were worth, actually 50%-100% more than the local going rate.....you know it is easy to make your kind of statements when you probably have no idea what it's like to live in, or do biz in the 3rd world....did you know if you pay them too much they just think you're a fool, go and hire someone else to do the work and then pawn it off as their own! :roll: A 500% mark up above what I paid for them is not a 500% profit for me. If I pay $4-$5 for a piece in Banuae it means I must go there, order it directly because you must always make sure they REALLY understand what you want. Then I must return later to pick the work up otherwise they may never actually get it finished or they may screw up the work (I find this is always a problem, whether in Mexico with silver jewelery, or Honduras for cigars or...) Then there is the shipping cost which is around the same cost as the piece itself costs. So by the time I sell it for $25 it has cost me EASILY $12.50 for each one. Now I could have gotten the costs down if I had chosen to have them crank out the same things over and over again (though you must still always stay on top of quality or it will go down!) but then you must maintain a business address etc. which is also added costs.....just living in the West is many times more expensive, there are no new homes for $5000 (like there are in Banuae) in my neighborhood!

Now why doesn't a buyer just get American carvers to make Tikis? Because the market won't bear the price it would cost to do that. Granted if an artist makes a name for themselves like Bosco with his unique stylized work they can get good bucks -say $75-$200 or more per piece- but just to recreate classic works it's just not cost effective because it is very difficult to get $50-100+ for an 18" mask unless it is in a high end retail outlet .....and then of course there are extra cost with that as well.

So in the end it is about money and profit but not greed, at least not for me.....the truth be told, if you want to make big bucks in carvings it is the Indonesian hard stone Buddhas and Hindu Gods that garner the big profits with them selling for $1000s when they cost less than $100 from the carvers!

BTW the Hawaiian Islands are not the only islands in the Pacific Ocean or the only ones that traditionally make wood 'Tiki' carvings! I'm sure I could get quality, low cost work done in PNG and Vanuatu as well and carving is also a part of their long traditional culture which I would then be supporting. :roll: AND I think their Traditional Tikis are more bitchin than Hawaiian (or FLA) Tikis! :P