Discuss: Does Witco go right over people's heads?

The above is a quote from a recent e-mail from my friend and fellow Witco collector Bosko, and it got me thinking. Not that I expected to see TIKI MODERN have an INSTANT price-raising effect on the Witco market, but I am surprised that it almost seems like the opposite! :) Here are four recent auctions of Witco furniture on e-bay that all did not sell:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Witco-Decor-4-piece-sofa-head-foot-boards-coffee-ta_W0QQitemZ220165150602QQihZ012QQcategoryZ12512QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com/Witco-Marco-Polo-Living-Room-Elvis-Jungle-Room-Set_W0QQitemZ190167354518QQihZ009QQcategoryZ38210QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com/HUGE-WITCO-Sofa-Dragon-TIKI-Chair-SET-Elvis-Jungle-Room_W0QQitemZ110186141480QQihZ001QQcategoryZ156311QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com/Polynesian-Hawaiian-Huge-Oak-Vintage-63-Tiki-Bar-Set_W0QQitemZ190169039759QQihZ009QQcategoryZ29460QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Granted, e-bay selling is bad in general these days, the economy is down, and people shy away from having to transport these giant pieces, AND people might not have the space (or the guts) to put them in their house.

But I am beginning to feel that my magic that worked in the Book of Tiki, namely turning something mundane, or even considered ugly by some, into something cool, even into art, did not work with TIKI MODERN. I thought by revealing the obvious talent and the prolific productivity of the man behind Witco, I would create a different understanding and appreciation of the Witco oeuvre.

But some people clearly don't get it, as this Amazon write-up shows:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/R11DBDKMJWYOVY/103-5979447-6613407?ie=UTF8&ref%5F=cm%5Fcr%5Fpr%5Fviewpnt&newContentID=Tx1POU06RT8JEGL#CustomerDiscussions

Like I say, I totally accept it when people find Witco UGLY,and I respect that, but here we have a failure to comprehend.
I am really just curious of what the opinion here on this board is. I myself am kind of proud that I have not delivered pure sameness with TIKI MODERN, but have moved on beyond the now easily accepted, known Tiki world. :D

I always thought Witco as the boring part of tiki and tiki collecting. Big brown hunks of cut up wood or unrelated topics but that's not to say it was all this way. I think the best part about tiki carving are where people draw their ideas and how that translates. More about the carver and why they have the need to make objects, verses the objects.

But I like what you did with Tiki Modern. Its almost like a full on tiki book (like BOT) aside from Witco and it all relates all back into Witco. I like the connections made. It gives importance to it all on both sides. I consider myself a philosopher of ideas and I think you Bro are the main tiki philosopher. And that is needed. I really like your connection of collecting tiki mugs to head collecting. Helps to understand ourselfs and the head collecters.

I think you made a loving book to the life on one man who gave and took of tiki. The behind the senses work is the best part. All great art book shouldn't do without. Tiki Modern - an art history book.

But I am beginning to feel that my magic that worked in the Book of Tiki, namely turning something mundane, or even considered ugly by some, into something cool, even into art, did not work with TIKI MODERN. I thought by revealing the obvious talent and the prolific productivity of the man behind Witco, I would create a different understanding and appreciation of the Witco oeuvre.

The book hasn't been out that long! Time will be good to Tiki Modern, THAT I'm sure of. I believe Tiki Modern is initially only reaching the BOT audience, but as time goes on word will spread, and Witco pieces will become harder to get your hands on.

I think the economy is keeping people from spending the big bucks, plus selling the larger pieces on Ebay is almost certainly going to mean "pickup only" which eliminates most of the country from bidding.

AND people might not have the space (or the guts) to put them in their house.

These days people seem to be downsizing more than the opposite. They might see a piece of Witco furniture they like but will pass because they don't want to spend a chunk of change on something they have absolutely no room for.

...which is what happened to me yesterday. I found a Witco bar in an antique store for $180.00. I knew it was a good price and the dealer had no idea what he had. I passed because I have absolutely no room for it anywhere in my house.

...then I went back this morning and bought it. Screw it...I'll MAKE room.

witco only goes over peoples heads if it's light enough, and if you throw it fast and high enough....otherwise, you may hit the other person and that would make them sad.....

On 2007-11-08 13:58, Tipsy McStagger wrote:
witco only goes over peoples heads if it's light enough, and if you throw it fast and high enough....otherwise, you may hit the other person and that would make them sad.....

lol, tipsy wins teh intarnet :D

Bigbro, I kept a very open mind about Witco, mostly because its fans are so passionate about it. I read your book, I looked through the Witco threads here on Tiki Central, and I concluded I just don't like the stuff. Some of the wall hangings are very nice and covetable - the world globe being the foremost example - but the furniture and carved items look to me like wood shop projects my schoolmates and I were making in the 7th Grade. It just seems so brutish - I guess I prefer my tiki with more charm.

That being said, I certainly don't disparage those who find Witco to their liking. In fact, it gives me a little window into the minds of those people who walk into my office and tell me all my tiki mugs look exactly the same.

On 2007-11-08 18:53, Koolau wrote:
It just seems so brutish - I guess I prefer my tiki with more charm.

Now this has me thinking about Witco in architectural terms. If Tiki was the primitive alter-ego of atomic modern architecture, maybe these polar opposites melded in Witco and brutalism?

Personally, I like Witco and I "get it." But I don't like it because I think it's pretty; just the opposite. I think it's a great example of what happens when a trend/fad goes too far for the general sensibilities. Like platform shoes and then KISS platform shoes!

On 2007-11-08 20:39, SilverLine wrote:
Now this has me thinking about Witco in architectural terms. If Tiki was the primitive alter-ego of atomic modern architecture, maybe these polar opposites melded in Witco and brutalism?

Absolutely! That is why I quote Le Corbusier at the beginning of the William Westenhaver chapter:

“…I have decided to make beauty by contrast. I will find its complement and establish a play between crudity and finesse, between the dull and the intense, between precision and accident.”

And that is why I wrote in the PR text for TIKI MODERN:

"....Decor deities and ersatz ancestors outrageously merged in the modern brutalist furniture from the house of Witco..."

And like Witco, brutalist architecture was considered ugly by many, and remained unpopular, as Wikipedia states"

"The failure of positive communities to form early on in some Brutalist structures, possibly due to the larger processes of urban decay that set in after World War II (especially in the United Kingdom), led to the combined unpopularity of both the ideology and the architectural style."

One pro-Witco argument I have is that the "unsophisticated" way of leaving materials looking rough and unfinished was more "honest" and closer to native primitive art and abilities than smoother, well executed carvings. In theory, at least.

I am not a Witco fan...but have an appreciation of it due to all you share about it Sven, especially in your TM. I try to read threads about it on the board and look at it in various settings (my favorite would be the map in a modern decor office setting) but it is not the art style that draws my eye. I prefer the cheap imitation stuff..JOKING!!! I am more attracted to the modern tiki art, however I would enjoy visiting the Elvis Witco room...maybe in time I will grow fond of it. I don't think it is for everyone and maybe the market leveling off will be kind to those folks that collect Witco and preserve it for people like me to gawk at. :)

I think Koolau used the right term to describe the Witco furniture - much of it is quite brutish. It doesn't have a crisp, clean, thin metal, open air, Neutra-ish look. Instead it is bulky, heavy, stable, earth-bound, and tends to invoke memories of matadors and the Spanish Inquisition, which nobody really expects when thinking about tiki.

When I think of the late 50's/early 60's core era of Polynesian Pop, I tend to think of the earlier, floor-to-ceiling glass walls and Googie inspired architecture, influnced by Sputnik and the space-age. When I look at Witco furniture, I tend to think of the 1970's, when the prime era of tiki was beginning to fade away. Although Graceland may have Witco in the Jungle Room, it brings to me association of the Fat Elvis and personal comfort era, rather than the earlier era when Elvis was more refreshing/revolutionary.

When I think of Witco in a tiki bar, like the Hala Kahiki, I think of dark spaces, where the wooden Witco carvings are somewhat in the background - a warm protective presence, but yet perhaps a little bit dangerous - you must give it your respect in order to feel safe and enjoy the comfort of the place. Bring it forward into the light, and into the center of your attention, and it might frighten too many people away.

There are Witco pieces that transcend the above stereotypes, and Chapter 13 of Tiki Modern, titled 'Witco Modern', is an example of this (and also the color pictures on pages 175, 189, and 204). When I turned through those pages, I saw Witco in a different light. It is these pieces of Witco that I like the most - they are light, not heavy, and the grain of the wood adds an element of earthy texture to what may have otherwise been a too cold and sterile piece of art.

So Witco falls tangently into the tiki scene for me. Yes, much of the work reminds me of other well-carved pieces of tiki art. Yes, I can easily picture Witco in a dark, window-less, atmospheric tiki room. And these are reasons to appreciate Witco in the tiki community with welcome arms.

But when I think of a scale/spectrum that has on one end the tall, skinny 1950's influenced figures of a Shag painting, and thick, 1970's Shag carpeting on the other end, I tend to associate Witco with being on the latter end.

Another analogy might be your aunt (or for the younger ones here, your grandmother) who was a very beautiful, stylish woman in her late teens/twenties during the 1950's, but 20-30 years later has gained some weight, has a few wrinkles, and wears leopard prints like Mrs Robinson did in order to feel exciting, exotic, and capture male eyes. Both versions are worthy of attention, but our culture tends to focus on the younger and what is new ... but only those who are more enlightened can fully understand the seductive charms of both Mrs Robinson and Witco.

As to the sale of Witco on e-bay, I think U.S. culture might be still in its retro, 1950's, clean looks and crisp lines phase. It may take a while for the pendulem of taste to swing the other way.

Vern

Ha ha Vern, I dig that aunt comparison! And the fat Elvis one too :)
Which shall remind us: Witco is FUNNY, it was for the rumpus room, never meant to be taken seriously! When I see those catalog serving suggestions, I laugh. It might be considered ugly by some, but how can it possibly be called boring?

And I should remind myself that I always meant TIKI MODERN to be also for those folks who like to look at outrageous kitsch, but shy away from actually putting it in their living rooms, offering a sort of safe way of consuming it. That's why I call it "design porn" in the PR text.

Please forgive me for being "brutal" but here it is: I think Witco IS the "tacky" in tiki. Everything else about tiki style I like, just not Witco.

That said, I asked my wife to buy me Tiki Modern for Christmas and I look forward to reading it.

The Amazon book reviewer seemed to gripe mostly about the number of pages devoted to Witco. There's not a lot of Witco I want to own, but I really enjoyed your research on it. If there wasn't new horizons to explore in the world of tiki I for one would be much less attracted to it. I don't care for hobbies that don't allow me to keep learning.

Oh, and there are tiki carvings and tiki mugs that are butt ugly too. Some of them I like, some I don't... and rum drinks... well, actually I like ALL rum drinks!

The world of diversity...where would we be without it. I like all things , but not everything of all things. A good piece is one we look at and enjoy. A great piece is one we look at and talk about. Be it furniture , books , mugs , or other art if we all enjoyed the same thing , perhaps a stump would still just be a stump. There are so many out there with talent, but very few with remarkable talent.. I am from the wanttabe group , whose talent is appreciation of great efforts. The Biltmore estate would be too small to hold all of the things I've seen and wanted but didn't have the room for. Each log on here brings new enlightenment for me, from other perspectives my horizons are expanded. Thanks to all , good , and indifferent , and thanks for those who make more of a stump , and those who talk about it.

As to the sale of Witco on e-bay, I think U.S. culture might be still in its retro, 1950's, clean looks and crisp lines phase. It may take a while for the pendulem of taste to swing the other way.

I completely agree. I think I once made a loose comparison here between Witco and Paul Evans furniture from the same period (1970s):

That buffet sold for $86,000 last year. A few collectors of avant garde 70s design are spending big money on "important" furniture from that period, much as they started doing on Modern 15 years ago, Arts and Crafts 15 years before that, Art Nouveau before that, Herter Brothers before that, etc etc.

It's only a matter of time before Witco could be viewed as poor man's 1970s art furniture. But the next generation of collectors needs to "get it" first. Like I said once before, all it will really take is a dealer/gallery to do a "Witco Jungle Room Art Furniture" installation at a major NYC show to get the younger design fans interested. Note, my 12 year old nephew LOVES Witco furniture -- I think mostly because he has no first hand cultural references to taint his impressions.

PS -- Sven -- but did you see what the 2 mask sets sold for!!!!

[ Edited by: Tiki Kollektor 2007-11-09 08:00 ]

Aloha Bigbro!

I can be impartial to Witco, sometimes I like it and sometimes I don't, but I would like to speak more about the book itself. I think TM will have a profound effect on Witco, it's just way too early yet. I agree with the one post above that most of the TM books are probably in the hands of BOT owners and people on this board, who already know Witco and have made up their minds about it. TM has yet to reach the masses, some who may not even know tiki yet. I know that the BOT is how I got into the world of tiki, and embarrassingly enough, guess were I found my hard cover edition when it first came out... a Pottery Barn in Northern Virginia!

As a retailer, we get dozens of people everyday who walk into the Thor Stor and ask, "what is tiki?" Most then leave with half a dozen tiki mugs or more. I even met a young girl recently who just bought her first chainsaw to teach herself how to carve a tiki, and she had never heard of Tiki Central, Book of Tiki, or even Trader Vic's and Don the Beachcomber. TM just needs more circulation time.

However, on a similar note, your books, along with most other tiki books, are very hard, as a retailer, to find. I have always tried to carry the BOT, TM, and even the Icons Tiki Style, and the only reliable wholesaler I could find is Last Gasp, and they are usually out of stock 95% of the time. I have contacted Taschen a couple times, but never got a response.

Anyway, I think the "magic" you created with Book of Tiki is present and alive in Tiki Modern, and it will be grasped by the public eventually.

Mahalo!

I find it odd that some people are surprised at the significant amount of Witco information in the book. Let's see....'Tiki Modern...And The Wild World of Witco' - what a shock! The book recognizes the significant role Witco played. I am not trying to buy every Witco item either. Regardless, Sven has chronicled an area of Tiki that should not be ignored. Again, he has done a superb job at documenting a part of Tiki culture and style. When we limit ourselves to appreciate only things that we might furnish our home with, we are embracing mediocrity. I'm going to make myself a Zombie and relax.

Thanks, folks, I appreciate the kindred spirit.
I think it's great that the Book of Tiki could be found at Pottery Barn, that is exactly where books reach the unknowing masses other then us who are already in the know...and hopefully Tiki Modern will do so, too.

The fact that the reviewer at Amazon suggested "Why not devote half the book to Shag?" speaks volumes about what I view as a sheeple mentality. Shag is well known and WAS interesting at first, he does a grand job of reflecting and even defining the look (or look back) of the early Sixties "Space Age Modern" or Rat Pack era.....over and over and over again.... Witco is something mostly unknown and unexplored by many retro Tiki fans such as myself. I knew what Witco was but had not had much interest in it until I saw your book. Now I see loads of potential and have many ideas of what I would like to do (the carving family I dealt with in the Philippines specialized in heavy wooden furniture with anthro & zoomorphic themes). It may take some time to catch on (if ever), the current popular trend (especially in Bars & Restaurant) decor and lighting seems to be 30s-40s deco, (a long way from the clunky funky 70s) so it may take awhile. BUT you certainly got my attention! :D Meanwhile it might be nice if Witco stayed unpopular at least long enough for us to afford some! :wink:

[ Edited by: Rattiki 2007-11-11 07:09 ]

On 2007-11-09 16:21, Mo-Eye wrote:

I can be impartial to Witco, sometimes I like it and sometimes I don't, but I would like to speak more about the book itself. I think TM will have a profound effect on Witco, it's just way too early yet. I agree with the one post above that most of the TM books are probably in the hands of BOT owners and people on this board, who already know Witco and have made up their minds about it. TM has yet to reach the masses, some who may not even know tiki yet. I know that the BOT is how I got into the world of tiki, and embarrassingly enough, guess were I found my hard cover edition when it first came out... a Pottery Barn in Northern Virginia!

Interesting how your books get around and the influence they have. I too bought my first BOT at a Pottery Barn store. They have great coffee table books and I thought BOT was just fabulous as I flipped through it in the store. I was not even into the tiki scene back then, but it was meant to be as I had an inherent interest that I wasn't even aware of. Mostly I buy reference books that have pictures that jog my memory of childhood (Bali Hai, Kona Kai in San Diego). I had BOT for years before I found this board. Although I am not attracted to Witco, I agree with Thor that exposure through TM will have a great influence over time. Some day I might even find an obscure Witco item in a junk store and it will end up in my lounge...but that would only be possible through the education you provide in your books. :)

Someone else already mentioned the size of Witco items being a factor as far as the problem of having space for things . . . I think it's also a factor in the speculation/price-inflation question. I wouldn't buy Witco items I find at a thrift shop or yard sale to trade away or sell---they'd be a pain to store and to mail (or arrange for someone to pick up). In contrast, I have picked up duplicate tiki mugs to trade before.

Im hit or miss on Whitco, I like some and dont like some.

But I'm also that way with mugs, old or new,
carved tikis old or new.
and art.
some SHAG I think it brilliant, and some I hate.

it all depends on how a piece hits me.

Jeff(bigtikidude)