So I recently visited Trader Vics...

Hi All,

I recently visited Trader Vics on a trip to Atlanta with my wife. We had some Mai Tai's while we stayed at the Hilton there.. and ever since I have been going crazy trying to reproduce this. The main drag for me is that in my area orange curacao is not an option - for some reason it is not sold in this state. I have tried to substitute with cointreau and blue curacao but neither taste right. I am using the following recipe

2 oz jamaican rum (I currently have appleton estate v/x, but I have also tried Myer's)
1/2 oz orange liquor (have tried both bols blue curacao and cointreau, orange is not available)
Half a fresh lime, squeezed and shell placed in glass
1/2 oz orgeat syrup (I have torani.. is this where this is going wrong?)
1/2-1/4 oz simple syrup (I have used both 1/2 and 1/4 oz)
Shake well over ice.

Where is this going wrong? I read all over that taste wise - blue is the same as orange curacao. I have also read that simple syrup is a ready substitute for rock candy syrup. I have easily sank over $150 in this pursuit already. Any help would be greatly appreciated. I wanted to do a whole tiki christmas thing this year.. but alas I fail at the Mai Tai.

Could be that the Mai Tais you were having used Trader Vic's "Enterprise" mix. Most, if not all the Trader Vic's make their Mai Tais with what is called "Enterprise Mix." They make it special for Vic's restaurants and bars and it not sold anywhere. The TV's in my area (LA) have started offering what they call "Scratch Mai Tai" where they use all the usual ingredients; curcao, rock syrup, etc and do not use the Enterprise Mix--this in addition to the usual Mai Tai that uses the enterprise mix. This could be the secret ingredient that you're tasting...or not tasting.

You're pretty close. & even without the TVs restaurant mix, you can get your MaiTais very very close.

The Standard we use:
1 oz. gold Jamaican Rum (usually Appleton Estate)
1 oz. dark Jamaican Rum (Coruba is our go-to Rum for this one)
1/2 oz. Orange Curacao
1/2 oz. Orgeat
.25 oz. Simple Syrup
Juice of 1/2 to 1 lime - depending on the tartness, juciness & size of your limes which varies tremendously

It is important to use a good Orange Curacao (not Triple Sec), not too much Simple Syrup & adjust the amount of lime accordingly.

Good Luck!

P.S......the Blue Curacao is definitely messing-up the flavors in the MaiTai. The flavor is not at all the same as the Orange variety. Find a way to get the Orange, balance your dark & gold rums & you'll be 90% of the way there.

Also make sure you'e using lime juice from a lime - not from a bottle.

Probably an obvious point (and given what you have spent, probably not an issue), but quality of ingredients varies by brand/price. The $6 bottle Orange Curacao is more likely to be sugar water with some orange flavor added (and, yes, probably closer to the Blue variety....), but a $20 bottle will have excellent real orange notes & make a big difference in your drink. Senior Curacao of Curacao is my favorite, but not necessarily easy to find.

As it seems you are learning in your trials, MaiTais are a subtle mix of flavors & getting the flavor balance just right for the beginner can be a challenge. But once you get it, you'll know how to do it from now on :D

Have FUN with it & learning what the adjustments in ingredients do to the overall flavor!!

(edited to add more detail :) )

[ Edited by: croe67 2010-12-25 16:02 ]

Hey Guys,

Thanks for all the pointers. I have found a few spots online that I can order orange curacao. I also found after some searching on this forum that because of the Orgeat I was using I might want to just dump the simple syrup altogether - this was a huge step in getting closer. Its now at least drinkable. I'll be looking at these suggestions. Thank you!

It's been awhile since I've actually watched a bartender make a mai tai, but don't they use a specific Trader Vic's Rum that's a blend of something or another? That may be the difference.

Hey jardoin, after looking at your recipe I would have said either dump the simple syrup altogether or cut back on both that and the orgeat as well. My personal recipe for a Mai Tai, after making quite a few and adjusting to taste is;

60ml rum. (That is generally what I have on hand at the time and can be just one rum or 30ml each of a combination of two, never white though).

15ml Cointreau. (It is nearly impossible to find a good quality curacao here in Aus. Those you might find can be really expensive. The only ones we can buy easily are those from Baitz and Continental which taste very synthetic. I've yet to see Bols in a liquor store and Marie Brizard can be found occasionally but for some reason I never see curacao from that brand. Never ever seen Senior Curacao of Curacao).

15ml orgeat. (Monin can be found but is about $20 a bottle so I just whatever brand I find at european deli's. Usually about $6 and I can't taste the difference. I dont use any simple syrup at all as I find the orgeat adds enough sweetness and I love the taste of almond anyway).

15-20ml lime juice. ( I originally used 30ml but slowly cut it back to where I am now. I say 15-20 because I use a citrus squeezer and just add whatever I get out of a half a lime).

I also don't shake my Mai Tais, I just pour it into a glass with ice, I prefer not to dilute it too much beforehand as I believe it will do enough of that in the glass. I've been hanging out with a friend lately I hadn't seen in a while and he is really getting into Tiki culture. I made him his very first ever Mai Tai a while ago and since then he's tried a few at various bars i've taken him to but he still says the ones I make are the best.

Someone posted this link on another Mai Tai thread. This is how I do it now. I've only used Appleton Estates 12 yr aged rum. I'll try a mix with El Dorado soon. This is Martin Cate from Smugglers Cove in San Francisco. This tastes great to me and definitely can't buy something close to this at any regular bar. Hope it helps. Don't skip the mint!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZUYP1gn-fY

[ Edited by: cvcgolf 2010-12-29 11:11 ]

First, the Atlanta TV does not make a Mai Tai by the recipe unless you seek out Joel and ask him for an Old Fashioned Mai Tai.

What they serve is a very sour (read "tart" if you are one of those sour likers) drink, vaguely resembling a Mai Tai.

If you go to their website, you can order a powdered Mai Tai mix. If you want what you just had at Vic's, get that powder and 2 ounces of dark rum, mint and the juice of half a lime. There you go.

Secondly, you'll need to build a Trader Vic's in your house and fill it with people. Seriously. Place can greatly affect your perception.

But, to your recipe... Blue Curacao is exactly the same as Orange curacao, except blue. I know you end up with a freakin green Mai Tai, but, close your eyes. It's the same flavor.

Personally, I find the recipe both too sour and too sweet. Imagine that! As some bright fellow pointed out here, the limes used when Vic invented this drink were Key Limes. A half a Key Lime is a lot less lime! ANd I think having two syrups in there is also overkill. I want to taste the rums and think a great Mai Tai should feature them. I mean, you pour 17 YO Wray & Nephew into what Vic's serves, or even what the recipe says, and you will lose that incredible rum! As another person here said, drop the Simple Syrup maybe. But 1/4 oz Orgeat, and see how that is. If you can get Clement Amber, use an ounc eof that to hit the nail right on the head along with your Appleton.

And fresh MINT! No straws. You want to force your face in there and smell the mint as you drink.

Your key to Beachbum Berry's books. Login and start concocting!

[ Edited by: Swanky 2010-12-29 12:11 ]

But, to your recipe... Blue Curacao is exactly the same as Orange curacao, except blue. I know you end up with a freakin green Mai Tai, but, close your eyes. It's the same flavor.

I'm not disagreeing with you, but are you sure? I can often taste artificial colors, particularly some blues (I know this primarily from eating blue icing on a birthday cake—sugar does NOT taste like that). Is it possible the coloring is affecting the flavor?

People experience taste quite differently, especially people referred to as "super tasters." It could possibly be that jardoin may be tasting something different.

Once again, I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just positing. Can anyone with direct taste experience comment on this?

On 2010-12-29 15:21, TikiTacky wrote:

But, to your recipe... Blue Curacao is exactly the same as Orange curacao, except blue. I know you end up with a freakin green Mai Tai, but, close your eyes. It's the same flavor.

I'm not disagreeing with you, but are you sure? I can often taste artificial colors, particularly some blues (I know this primarily from eating blue icing on a birthday cake—sugar does NOT taste like that). Is it possible the coloring is affecting the flavor?

People experience taste quite differently, especially people referred to as "super tasters." It could possibly be that jardoin may be tasting something different.

Once again, I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just positing. Can anyone with direct taste experience comment on this?

I haven't done a taste test within the same brand but I do trust whatever Beachbum Berry might have to say about it.

On page 11 of The Grog Log you will find this:
"There's no difference between CURACAO and BLUE CURACAO except their color..."

I have to say that i've never done a comparison on different coloured curacao's within the same brand, but to me it seems completely feasible that there might/will be a difference in flavour, however slight. Any colouring added is generally artificial so it stands to reason that there would be a more synthetic taste, especially with the blue for example. Like when you read the back of food packaging and it says "Natural colour". What the hell is "Natural colour?". After all there is no natural blue coloured food in nature. And before anyone says blueberries, they're actually purple.

I tried to look up some info on artificial colorings and if taste is affected by them. In general, natural colorings are far more likely to impart a taste as opposed to artificial colorings.

One semi-scientific test done at Slate.com regarding artificial coloring found the following:

*"I blindfolded seven Slate staffers and conducted a repeat-trial, forced-choice discrimination test. For each trial, the subjects compared the taste of pure, filtered water from the office cooler with that of a test liquid, which may or may not have contained eight drops from a vial of McCormick's NEON! food dye. (Test liquids were either unadulterated or colored pink, green, or blue.) I asked subjects to state whether they believed the test liquid to be colored or uncolored and then to rate how confident they were on a scale of one to five.

Given the results from 84 total trials, subjects were able to identify the presence or absence of artificial color 56 percent of the time. Correct answers were associated with average confidence ratings of 2.7; incorrect answers corresponded to an average confidence of 2.3. Subjects detected the presence of color in 79 percent of the cups containing artificial pink color, as opposed 57 percent each for green and blue.

The results of the taste test suggest that there may be a very slight but detectable difference in taste or mouth-feel between pure and artificially colored water. It's also possible that this difference is more pronounced for the pink dye. Would the subtle "taste" of artificial color be detectable in a slice of rich, chocolate cake? I'm guessing no.*
http://www.slate.com/id/2161806/sidebar/2161809/

While you search for OC or a suitable substitute, you might want to make yourself a batch of orange zest tincture, which you can in turn make into various things, including orange curaçao.

Get some fresh oranges that have pungent oils in the skin. Zest them all, trying to avoid digging into the white pithy part of the skin. Use the juice for something else.

Put the zest in a container and cover completely in overproof rum (or vodka if need be). Just let that sit forever, or as long as you can stand to wait (days, weeks, months..) so that the orange peel flavor is drawn out into the alcohol.

When making OC or a reasonable substitute (the flavor of OC is from the orange peel, not the juice), take some or all of your tincture and add RCS or simple syrup, or just sugar to taste and use that instead.

Some of the recipes/formulae for homemade stuff you can find on TC are way better than any similar product you can buy of the shelf. When you cannot find something on any shelf is a good time to try making your own.

I buy Bols OC all the time, but I still like my own better. It's a matter of going to the trouble of making it. In the case of orangepeel tincture, it's pretty easy.

Hey Gnomon, I might have a crack at this myself. Just a few pointers though please. How many oranges are you talking about to what amount of spirit? 4-5 oranges to a cup of rum? When you say zest do you mean grating it on a zester to get the fine bits of skin or is peeling it enough (without the pith)? Also, the only OP rum I can get here is aged so i'd have to use vodka. Does that have to be OP or would 40% abv do the job?
Cheers
swizzle

I'm curious about this as well. I've been using cointreau, but it makes the mai tai a bit off. When we are talking overproof rum, are we discussing stuff like 151 or milder over-proofs? Perhaps an example of a brand you've used. Also, if using TC infused rum instead of curacao do you use the same recipe for the mai tai but substitute for the curacao, or do you omit the curacao and use TC infused rum altogether?

I make a few liqueurs and syrups but never tried to make Orange curacao (probably because the Bols dry orange is so good, and so is the Santa Teresa orange rhum liqueur - fortunately both easily found here in the UK) - but anyway back to the point: I have a recipe for orange curacao at home from a book that has excellent recipes so i'll try to remember to transcribe it onto TC when i'm home... might need a reminder though - it is the silly season after all...

Go with your recipe but try to use 1/2 oz Trader Vic's orgeat or Fee Brothers orgeat and triple sec for the orange curacao. Also make sure to use fresh squeezed lime juice.

Though I doubt the sugar syrup is the single culprit, there is a difference between simple syrup and rock candy syrup. RCS has at least twice the sugar in solution than the average simple syrup.

Until Trader Vic's switched over to pre-mixes, the original and the first adjusted recipes called for 1/4 oz Rock Candy Syrup. Such a small amount might seem trivial, but I figure that if Vic put it in, it ought to be in there.

There are 2 areas I think may fix your Mai Tai. The amount of lime juice and/or your ice/shaker techique.

For your next round of tweaking squeeze several limes at once to give you several ounce of fresh juice at the ready and to get some (or make) some rock candy syrup (as opposed to the simple syrup). Save adding the lime juice for the very last. Start with 1/2 oz of lime juice. Take a bar straw sample and see where you are. Not quite right, add another 1/4 oz of lime and see where you are. (Myself, I like 3/4 to 1 oz of fresh lime in my Mai Tai, but I do use RCS and I give my drinks a good shake for proper dilution and blending of ingredients)

Ice. Imo, crushed ice is best. If you just use cubes out of the bag or refrigerator, they don't melt enough.

Trader Vic's uses a 15 oz double old fashioned glass which is 25% bigger than the standard double old fashioned. I think it holds the optimum amount of crushed ice when you are making a Mai Tai. Fill one of these to the brim with crushed ice and add your ingredients to the glass. Now give it a good shake. Not one of those quick 1,2,3 shakes and done, but a good proper shake. You should feel the shaker getting super cold in your hand before you stop. In any drink which calls for shaking with ice, water is an unstated ingredient in the drink. Not enough ice or a lazy shake will not give you the proper dilution to you drink.

If you think these items can't make enough difference, I challenge you to try before you doubt.

[ Edited by: jwtiki 2011-01-13 15:57 ]

On the contrary, I am finding anything makes a drastic difference. I actually have started measuring out the lime juice, and I had a relatiive ship me in some curacao - senior curacao of curacao orange curacao. This new curacao threw me for a total loop. I'm thinking at this point I'm going to order some orgeat and rcs from trader vics online store. I've also decided the next round of drinks will be made with key limes (yellow as I hear it) so I'm sure those measurements are about to change as well. I guess from here on the aim is to use all quality ingredients. What I would really like to get my hands on is some sort of list that compares rums specifically for use in mai tais. Also - does anybody here use martinique rums? I hear its a whole new ballgame with that. Unfortunately being where I am I can't just run out and get some... I think what I'm going to end up doing is getting the list of available rums here in this state and submitting it here for critique. Anybody know their rums well?

On 2011-01-13 13:14, jardoin wrote:
What I would really like to get my hands on is some sort of list that compares rums specifically for use in mai tais. Also - does anybody here use martinique rums? I hear its a whole new ballgame with that. Anybody know their rums well?

All cocktails come down to what YOU like and what is available/on hand at the time. Going back about 18-24 months ago, I had about 30 different rums in my collection and made Mai Tai's using all of them in all sorts of different combinations. Unfortunately I didn't keep a record of what I thought were the best (English Harbour and a Havana Club I know were a great mix) but I have to say that I prefer my Mai Tai's using a Martinique rum with any other aged rum I have in the bar. I personally think that using a Martinique just gives it a lot more balls.

As for your question about a list, try this. Means nothing to me as I cant get my hands on most of those rums, but it is an interesting reference. As I said before though, you could go out and buy every rum in the list and find you only like one or two of the combinations, or even a combination of two of those rums not mentioned together. It all comes down to personal taste.

I'm thinking at this point I'm going to order some orgeat and rcs from trader vics online store

Noooooooooooooo!!! Order from Trader Tiki instead: http://www.tradertiki.com/. His products are amazing and the real deal (and I'm not just saying that because he's a friend). You won't regret it.

Your friend needs to renew his ssl certificate.

Valid through 8/6/2015 gosh darnit!

Actually the SSL issues have to do with foreign javascript, which are a bit due to the nature of wordpress, and the fact that I make better syrups than websites.

I'd love to get it fixed, but uhh... buy more Trader Tiki's syrups!

I can say for certain that Bols and DeKyuper brands of blue curacao have a distinct metallic taste, and both have a more flat sweetness than the orange of those brands. I don't know why this is true, but it seems to be. Get out a bit of these and taste them neat. You'll see what I mean.

On 2010-12-30 14:13, swizzle wrote:
Hey Gnomon, I might have a crack at this myself. Just a few pointers though please. How many oranges are you talking about to what amount of spirit? 4-5 oranges to a cup of rum? When you say zest do you mean grating it on a zester to get the fine bits of skin or is peeling it enough (without the pith)? Also, the only OP rum I can get here is aged so i'd have to use vodka. Does that have to be OP or would 40% abv do the job?
Cheers
swizzle

There are flavors in citrus peel that are alcohol soluble, but not water soluble, so lower proof steeping could have less orange flavor in it than over proof steeping. I have no idea if you'd actually reach the saturation point (preventing further dissolving) with the lower proof vodka or not though.

You should use Grand Marnier or one of the Marnier substitutes, such as Stock's GranGala or Torres Gran Orange. All three brands are in full national distribution. After much experimenting, I have settled on using Stock’s GranGala as my go-to Curaçao in a Mai Tai. GranGala is similar in style to Grand Marnier in that it’s made on an brandy base, but it's less expensive and still high quality. Curaçaos come in two styles, those that are made with a brandy base (such as Grand Marnier, Marie Brizard Orange Curaçao, Torres Grand Orange and Stock’s GranGala), and those that are made with a neutral grain spirit base (such as Senior, Bols, Hiram Walker & DeKuyper). in fact Grand Marnier was originally called “Curaçao Marnier” on it’s label for many years, it's the original Curaçao. I like a brandy based Curaçao in my Mai Tai as the brandy base adds richness, viscosity and complexity to the final drink. I’m able to get GranGala for $16.00/750ml bottle here in the Cincinnati area, which is far less expensive than Grand Marnier, and I find GranGala to be drier and less ‘syrupy’ than Marnier as well. The Torres Orange is excellent as well.