The "Just Because It's From Hawaii, Doesn't Mean It's Tiki" Thread

Case in point...

In the mid-1970's the local band Kalapana had an R&B Lite hit "The Hurt".

Good easy listening BUT NOT TIKI.

Also around that time, this piece of attire replaced the classic Aloha Shirt as a popular Hawaiian memento... NOT TIKI !!

To be continued...

[ Edited by: JOHN-O 2011-09-14 01:43 ]

Oh this is gonna be horrible, and great at the same time,
and possibly might not end well.
bring em on....

Jeff(btd)

Are you implying that cats are not tiki? Disrespectful.

On 2011-09-14 10:14, bigtikidude wrote:
Oh this is gonna be horrible, and great at the same time,
and possibly might not end well.
bring em on....
Jeff(btd)

Ya, they're gonna take off the gloves on this one.
I'm gonna go pop some popcorn.

I tend to agree that any “hawaiiana” from the mid 70’s on, has little if anything to do with tiki.
But I feel that anything before that, would be tiki.
For me, “tiki” has always meant the Hawaiian and Polynesian aspect. That’s why, although I like exotica, I prefer Hapa Haole.
My first exposure to “tiki” was of course, Disneyland and the Tahitian terrace restaurant. Though this occurred in the 70’s, rock music was huge at the time…and NOT featured in the Tahitian terrace at all. No surf bands. No garage rock bands. Nothing like that.

It was indeed, the Polynesian “floor show” that I first associated with Tiki, and still do.
And of course, the Polynesian floor show is not authentic at all. It’s for entertaining haoles on the mainland or in Waikiki. Therefore, how much more tiki can it possibly be?

In my corner of the tiki universe, it is hawaiiana and polynesiana that comes first, followed by exotica and lounge culture/space age/jet age culture.
Sorry Jeff, but in my opinion, surf and garage are not even close! Neither is low-brow art or hot-rod/kustom car culture. To me, those are all part of something else: Rock and roll.

I would agree that most modern Hawaiian stuff is not tiki. Cecelio and Kapono pretty much helped destroy true tiki over there. 70’s soft rock and yacht rock is not tiki. I don’t even consider slack key to be tiki. For me, it HAS to be Hapa haole music. Whatever was playing in the background of the classic brady bunch goes to Hawaii episode is to me, Tiki.

Even exotica was not featured in fake Polynesian restaurants of the 50’s and 60’s as much as Hapa Haole was. That much, even Sven agrees on.

Flame on.

Seems more like a political statement to me, Boris?

Nope, just a guy from Hawaii who isn't Tiki.

It would be cool if he put some "Tikis" in the "Oval Office"

I've also noticed that some people here tend to lump "local" Hawaiian food into Tiki. I'm talking about items like Spam Musubi; Loco Moco; and the one scoop macaroni, one scoop rice plate lunch. This to me is Tiki Revisionism. Tiki food is rooted in mid-century menus which would have included only faux Chinese food and anything that might have been served at a tourist luau in the 1950's or 1960's.

Spam Musubi... NOT TIKI !!

Since Hawaiian cuisine did not show up on Tiki Bar/Restaurant menus til the 1970's John-O is correct
but I will put it firmly in the Tiki Revival category, also since "Don the Beachcomber" has a real tasty Spam roll
I will force myself to tolerate it at least once a week!

Why do people waste soooo much time trying to define what is NOT Tiki?
If the research into what IS Tiki is good enough, won't that be all the explanation necessary?
There's something inherently wrong with beginning a discussion with a negative--it just screams out for everyone to get into a fight.
John, is this just intended as a "stirring the pot" thread?
Is it based in a fun, tongue-in-cheek kind of attitude, or are you really being serious? And if so, why?
Is there really any validity or any kind of scholarly depth in re-opening that Tiki vs. Tiki Style vs. Hawaiiana etc., etc., etc. discussion?
Wasn't that dead horse beaten enough HERE???
Defining lines in the proverbial sand is fine, but why does every tiny little thing have to fit into some category?
Wouldn't time be better spent actually digging up some lost or buried information on something that's already been clearly established as Polynesian Pop?

Wow. Two interesting Tiki revalations this week...

The first, the BigBro reads Surf Music event threads.

The second, JonPaul tracks Bilge.

:)

And because the definition of Bilge is "For drunken, waaaay off-topic, time killer or non-informative posts. And Lamprey discussion."...

it should be apparent that I'm killing time (all 15 minutes of it, so far) with a "fun, tongue-in-cheek kind of attitude."

Alright, alright. I can't argue with that. :wink:
I think I'll go change my feminine hygiene product now.
Incidentally, Bigbro reads EVERYTHING!
And, I wonder if anyone's ever had Lamprey Musubi?

I always compare the discussion about what is or what is not tiki, to the types of discussions found in other forums. What you find in those forums is the same you find here: A mixture of newbies, “purists” (Like me) and “big Tent” types who want to include everything in the discussion.
For example, on the train geek’s forums, there are only two topics of discussion: Diesel Electric or Steam Powered. But occasionally, people figure that since a train rides on tracks, EVERYTHING that moves on a track is fair game: Monorails, ore carts, rollercoasters….but the purists shut those threads down fast. Want to talk about rollercoasters? Go to the rollercoaster forums.
In the martial arts forums, they do discuss all kinds of aspects of martial arts: Self-Defense, sports, reality-based, boxing, wrestling as well as all asian fighting forms….but one thing you don’t find is people constantly bringing up pro wrestling, which is scripted entertainment. Those threads get shut down real quick!
Similar to here, the people who put those threads up are quick to say: Pro Wrestling uses real moves, takes place in a ring, and is a sport….so why can’t we talk about it here?
In my opinion, you cannot. They are two different things!

So I don’t feel so bad when I say in public that I don’t consider surf or garage rock to be real tiki music. Just because there are some similarities, the whole intent is different.

And threads like this one are merely a reaction to the vast amount of non-tiki stuff that creeps in here every week! Whether it be some Ska/Reggae musician who has the balls to call himself “tiki joe” (never mind the fact that there already IS an established artists here with that name) Jimmy Buffett, Party City, or “burning man” type attempts to link tiki with the very hippy culture that contributed to it’s demise (That’s the one that always gets me).

At the risk of starting a fight, of all the mid-century Polynesian and exotica records I have, I will not buy Don Ho, because his music just doesn't feel tiki.
And, I disagree on the food. I think modern Polynesian is just as tiki as the wacky, space-age stuff. Tonight I am opening my tiki bar up and serving poisson cru, spam misubi, spam and pineapple fried rice, edamame salad and taro chips. There are newer, better tiki drinks, so why not newer, better tiki food?

Now, now, just because something is not tiki does not make it bad, it is just not tiki.

Take a look at Yvonne Elliman. She is a lovely talented Hawaiian lady but she is not tiki.

She was a backup singer in Eric Clapton's band which give her lots of credibility to many people but she is not tiki. Well, OK, she was in the band when Mr. Clapton was not at the height of his artistic output but that still was a great job to have but she is still not tiki.

She was Mary in Jesus Christ Superstar, a very tacky musical which I enjoyed in a contradictory ironic way but she is still not tiki.

She came from Hawaii, she is not tiki but we can still like and respect her.

Well, maybe the phase of her career where she was working with tbe Bee Gees...don't know.

I'm with Lucas on the Hapa Haole music. I've always enjoyed it, and although I love exotica, I prefer the decidedly Polynesian/Oceanic music and drums that point to the South Pacific Islands rather than Exotica's more scattered Oceania/Orient/Africa/Middle East/Latin America sounds.

My "music to put me in a Tiki mood" playlist has more Hapa Haole than Exotica, more combined selections from acts like Alfred Aholo Apaka, Andy Iona, Sol Hoopi, Nat Mara, Danny Kalauawa Stewart & his Islanders, Felix Mendelssohn & His Hawaiian Serenaders, Harry Owens & his Royal Hawaiians, Poly & his Hawaiian Ensemble, All Star Hawaiian Band, etc. than I do of the Exotica trifecta of BD&L.

But I still like Surf Music, Slack Key, and even some quirky non-Hawaiiana/Tiki acts (that most folks wouldn't consider Tiki either) who did Polynesian songs too (Sons of the Pioneers' "Blue Hawaii" and Benny Carter's "Moon of Manakoora" for a couple of examples).

Add to that, not all modern Polynesian music is the same, nor should it be considered Tiki just because it's from Hawaii. Some of the acts are like a modern version of some of the soft rock groups of the 70s, not very Tiki. The one type of Hawaiian music that I just can't take much of at all is the current trend of Hawaiian Reggae, or "Jawaiian" as my cousin calls it. Yuck. Sounds just like the stuff out of the Caribbean, and we all know how hardcore tikiphiles feel about Caribbean music in their Tiki.

Hapa Haole Über Alles!

Bear

"Hapa Haole Über Alles!"

Wow!!,
I think we just found a new catch phrase for Lucas.

Jeff(btd)

Sorry, beer is not (nor will it ever be) Tiki. This is especially true if you subscribe to the belief that Tiki is part of space-age bachelor-pad cocktail culture. Sure you're allowed to tip back and enjoy a brewski inside the Tiki bar (I certainly have), but that's still no more Tiki than if you enjoying a Margarita or a Red Bull & Vodka.

And It doesn't matter if that beer is a finely crafted microbrew, a PBR, or a brand that screams "Hawaii".

Primo beer... NOT TIKI !!

:D

Puka Shells. They're from Hawaii, right ?

So should Puka Shell necklaces be considered Tiki ??

I'm going to have to say NO...

On 2011-09-17 12:08, JOHN-O wrote:
Sorry, beer is not (nor will it ever be) Tiki. This is especially true if you subscribe to the belief that Tiki is part of space-age bachelor-pad cocktail culture. Sure you're allowed to tip back and enjoy a brewski inside the Tiki bar (I certainly have), but that's still no more Tiki than if you enjoying a Margarita or a Red Bull & Vodka.

And It doesn't matter if that beer is a finely crafted microbrew, a PBR, or a brand that screams "Hawaii".

Primo beer... NOT TIKI !!

:D

I agree with you, but.....
I only have a few Aloha shirts that fit,
and one of them is a nice Blue Primo shirt.
what's yer thought on that?
ok to wear at tiki events or no?
by the way, I hate Primo beer, but I like the shirts.

Jeff(btd)

On 2011-09-17 12:08, JOHN-O wrote:
Sorry, beer is not (nor will it ever be) Tiki. This is especially true if you subscribe to the belief that Tiki is part of space-age bachelor-pad cocktail culture. Sure you're allowed to tip back and enjoy a brewski inside the Tiki bar (I certainly have), but that's still no more Tiki than if you enjoying a Margarita or a Red Bull & Vodka.

And It doesn't matter if that beer is a finely crafted microbrew, a PBR, or a brand that screams "Hawaii".

Primo beer... NOT TIKI !!

:D

Don’t be too quick to discount Primo Beer, I’ve been tempted several times to start a “Show us your Primo Beer collectibles” tread. This brew has been around forever and during the heyday of Poly pop Primo embraced the culture with some fine examples of “Primo Tiki” memorabilia that would be welcome in most tiki bars such as these

and let’s not forget the $8888.88 map of the Hawaiian chain that I would put up next to an August Holland print in a second. I hope he relists it.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/VTG-1968-PRIMO-BEER-3D-HAWAII-HAWAIIAN-RELIEF-MAP-SIGN-/220827127777?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item336a528fe1

On 2011-09-17 13:18, bigtikidude wrote:
I agree with you, but.....
I only have a few Aloha shirts that fit,
and one of them is a nice Blue Primo shirt.
what's yer thought on that?
ok to wear at tiki events or no?
by the way, I hate Primo beer, but I like the shirts.

Well... Based on naugatiki's above post, I'll give you a Tiki pass on it this one time. :)

Tom Lopaka vs. Steve Mcgarrett vs. Magnum PI…

Que es mas Tiki ??

"Hawaiian Eye" of course.

You got it Chuckster, if any TV show could claim to be Tiki it was "Hawaiian Eye".

Look there's even a Tiki…

:)

It's interesting that the show's run paralleled the peak Tiki years of 1958-1963. Also the fact that it was filmed primarily on Hollywood sets made it as authentically inauthentic as mainland Tiki-style.

But… since this is a thread that points out that being from Hawaii doesn't automatically make you Tiki, let's consider Hawaii Five-0. That series was filmed entirely on location there.

OK, I know I'm probably in the minority here but IMHO, Hawaii Five-O is NOT "Tiki". Its plot lines of communist spies, crime syndicates, and urban crime more typical to cities like Chicago, runs completely contrary to Tiki's idealized vision of exotic paradise. And a "square John" like Steve McGarrett, you'd never catch him inside a Tiki bar unless he was shutting it down due to liquor license violations.

Actually in many ways, I think Magnum P.I. is much closer in spirit to Tiki's sense of fun, but it did run during the bad old devolution days of the 1980's (in other words, NOTHING from the 80's can be considered Tiki, Ha Ha).

Sorry Steve McGarrett and Thomas Magnum, the closest you guys ever got to being Tiki was to (inappropriately) be turned into Tiki mugs…

[ Edited by: JOHN-O 2011-09-18 09:16 ]

OK, here's another controversial one…

Should Don Ho be considered Tiki ?? Personally, I do because to me, he reinforces the Lounge culture aspect of Tiki (even if he bookends its final days). He's our very own Poly-Pop Frank Sinatra (well, Dean Martin anyway).

I however get the impression that people here discount him solely because they dislike his schmaltzy style of singing.

So what do others think about Don Ho. ..

Tiki or not Tiki ??

Primo Beer = Not Tiki
Primo Beer Shirt = Tiki

Just depends.

Ah fuck it ... Beer is not Tiki.

Newbee's need to grab a clue and I for one am sick of all goofballing around on TC (unless on Bilge) And I know I used to mess around waay too much back in the good ole days of TC. I am and was here for the info and the great vintage eye candy. Goofing around is for events, Bilge and Facebook!!

Pot stirring is really lame!! (unless in Bilge)

JOHN-O,

I'm not here to make the case that Don Ho was or was not tiki, but Pat and I did have an opportunity to listen to him a decade or so ago in an intimate dinner club setting in Waikiki. At the time, we both thought his vocal qualities shared much in common with Sinatra, deep and romantic. That was especially so when he sang Kui Lee's "I'll Remember You."

It was a great evening, and, after the show, Don Ho individually engaged every attendee in greeting and thanks, and to make a bit of small talk. He was fun to be with, a charming and consummate entertainer. The man was much more than the "Tiny Bubbles" that was his signature tune.

-Tom

[ Edited by: TikiTomD 2011-09-18 09:21 ]

On 2011-09-18 09:16, The Sperm Whale wrote:
Primo Beer = Not Tiki
Primo Beer Shirt = Tiki

Just depends.

Ah fuck it ... Beer is not Tiki.

Newbee's need to grab a clue and I for one am sick of all goofballing around on TC (unless on Bilge) And I know I used to mess around waay too much back in the good ole days of TC. I am and was here for the info and the great vintage eye candy. Goofing around is for events, Bilge and Facebook!!

Pot stirring is really lame!! (unless in Bilge)

Hey Spermy, Its OK to have fun, That was the number one reason people went to a Tiki Bar/Supper club
in the old days and nothing else, No Urban Archeology, no delineating or cataloging what was Tiki, they went
just to have fun! many people here forget that.

Tiki is FUN!

Tiki or Not Tiki ??...

Fundraisers aside, is this Hawaiian cultural concept responsible for the "it's all good" malaise we've been experiencing on TC.

The ancient Hawaiians were all about Ohana (and Aloha) and look where it got them. :D

I'm going to disagree and here's one of my favorite posts to prove my point. Just ask Captain Cook.

Ha !! That will be the next T-shirt I'll have HB Tiki make for me.

I LIKE IT!

On 2011-09-14 11:58, JOHN-O wrote:
I'm talking about items like Spam Musubi; Loco Moco; and the one scoop macaroni, one scoop rice plate lunch.
Spam Musubi... NOT TIKI !!

Ahem, I am not here to call any of you haoles, but I do have to make a correction. Its "one scoop macaroni" and "TWO scoop rice" (with the s dropped from the word scoop intentionally according to proper Hawaiian Pidgin). Stay local my bruddahs!

This is bringing back not so fond memories of an early, innocent question I had that turned into a shit storm fight I had nothing to do with. I don't remember another thread being locked down by Hanford since then.

Ah, remember when we were young and so passionate in our beliefs?

http://www.tikicentral.com/viewtopic.php?topic=31087&forum=1

A lot of these things may not be "tiki" as they apply to the old school tiki style, but work in the new tiki revival. Example---Primo beer, sold at the Tonga Hut The oldest Tiki bar in LA ( it's probably sold at purple Orchid, too). Primo beer=Tiki.

Yes, John-O is just trouble maker and is stirring the pot. Is John-O tiki? Open for discussion...

Grog,
John O has more tiki in his little finger than you have in your whole body.
and he isn't even a tiki artist.

oh, now who's stirrin' the pot?
:o

p.s. This if for Lucas,
If you don't like Happa Haole Music, and yer a tiki geek.
you got yer head up yer ass.

It's true. Caveman predate Tiki, so John-O is more Tiki than GROG. But, GROG probably own more Tiki mugs and Tiki crap than John-O.

And for Lucas, GROG have more Hapahaole music than Surf music in GROG' tiki room, but GROG have more Exotica than Hapahaole.

But this not about GROG, this about that trouble-making John-O. :D

You are kidding Ernie, Right? :P
just having a laugh? don't make me put you in the corner :P

put the dunce hat on him too.

WTF is your problem?

[ Edited by: GROG 2011-09-20 23:45 ]

It's a joke buddy, maybe a bad one, and not funny.
But I'm joking around, and not serious.
Lighten up Francis.
Jeff btd

Now kids we all like each other now, who wants pudding!

Pudding? I want pudding, I'll take chocolate... But only if it's real pudding, and not a Type 6.5 on the BSC.

Bear

Is Hawaiian Pudding Tiki?

Bear, We only got the homemade kind around here.

See what happens when you stir the pot! Now Grog pissed. Don't piss off Grog because Grog working on Monkeyfez mugs (say that 10 times fast). Grog need good artist vibe to complete mugs. I don't know why I'm talking like a caveman??

I can only say what is tiki to me. Having grown up in Hawaii in the 60's and 70's, my memories guide my tiki tastes. As John-O knows, I'm not a purist. Hell, I don't even live in a trailerpark.

Reggae/Hawaiian=Hell no not Tiki.
Primo=Tiki because it used the symbollism of tikis and the Hawaiian islands pre-1970's.
Hawaii 5-0=Not tiki because McGarret would have gotten his ass kicked if he went downtown.
Don Ho=Tiki because he was the quintessential lounge/tiki bar entertainer pre 1970's.
Surf Guitar=Not tiki but it is at my trailer er house because we surfers relate to it.
Punk/Garage rock=Not tiki.
Spam/Rice/Macaroni salad=Not tiki but a damn good grind for me.
John-O=Tiki because he likes to get the purists all riled up.
Grog=Tiki because he made the coolest moai salt & pepper shakers and now I want a Monkeyfez mug!