Tiki Music Defined

floggin' a dead horse

[ Edited by: komohana 2011-10-15 20:34 ]

so, emspace - you seem pretty defensive here (perhaps passionate is better!). :wink: I didn't set out , nor am I claiming to be doing something unique except from my own perspective: so, yes, I am claiming that there are aspects in the Orchestrotica's music that don't reflect things I have heard before. I think the takeaway here is that you have a pretty firm definition of what is it, and what it isn't. The old "nothing is really new" argument could come alive here - knowing whether something is unique takes a lot of perspective and history.

btw, the last track I was referring to is Autumn Digging Dance. I will definitely confirm that our latest album has cover tunes and tunes that try to be simpler melodies, harmonies, rhythms, less complexity etc. (MAIKA is beautifully simple and a favorite).

the shakuhachi granite tiki refers to is something Geni our WW player performs live, often on Phoenix Goodbye (which was recorded with flute). This is a bit of an inside joke as the drone sound in the bass and the flute duet is a reference to Albanian iso-polyphonic folk singing (Geni is Albanian which led me to explore his heritage a bit since I knew nothing about it a few years ago).

Instrumentation wise, yes, the core of my quartet is not unique as i said earlier - that baseline instrumentation is very much rooted in denny/lyman's lineup sans piano - that was a launch point for us. However, there are other groups out there using that lineup too - playing swing, latin music, etc - so are they exotica by definition because of that? Again, comes back to your definition of the genre - I think your fence is smaller and more defined than mine, and some others, so it's not about right/wrong as much as perspective I think (and there are no rules as to where you can put your fence up!).

IN terms of combining styles; i always felt that the classic exotica was more about grabbing cultural "cliches" and occasionally adding "asian" and latin instruments to that...(trad jazz being the exception - a core competency). I don't think that this alone defines a genre for me (orchestral composers did this for years).

In the 50s/60s, I don't really know if there were conscious choices to avoid traditional performance practices on these instruments in favor of "making something new" or whether it was more like "hey, this gamelan sound is cool - i don't know much about that tradition but i will try to add it to our set list." And, leave it at that. I can definitely say most of the percussion approach I've heard falls into this category (and I am not saying that it's bad here).

So, without insulting the music, to me, much of the older material is a bit more surface ("wallpaper" according to Denny) than it was about combining more specific, conscious musical elements together with rigor (rhythms, modes, styles, cultural references, composer references, etc). I tend to prefer the latter as a composer (even if it ends up being delivered as just "exotic" sounding to regular listeners which is fine). I like the multiple levels of depth - you can (I hope my listeners can, I should say) enjoy its output without having to worry about "Getting it" from the composer/performer perspective...but if you want, there is more under the covers. I think the world is more connected; it's easier for curious musicians to pay respect to other traditions at a deeper level now thanks to technology, youtube, etc. So maybe that's partially why the older music has more of a specific sound.

i don't usually talk about this stuff because most audiences don't care and just want to enjoy some music! I'm blabbering, enough!

b

On 2011-10-11 20:34, emspace wrote:
Kaiwaza, I take very strong exception to the idea that the general public should be trusted to define what Tiki is. VERY...strong...exception.

But if everyone insists it's true, then so be it: trilobites and cart racing are Tiki, and so is Hank Williams.

Mr. Ho, your stuff is pure exotica, completely influenced by the old school, so whatever influences you may have, my 30+ years as a muso tell me this is not exactly some shatteringly new approach. That's intended as compliment BTW. Very nice pure-drop exotica.

So, whether or not you know it or are happy about it: you have internalized and made use of something that does seem after all to be codifiable.

Well, I don't "trust" the general public in much of anything, but that doesn't change reality. Who defines what's "disco" and what isn't? Who can argue that reggae (God forbid) is "Hawaiian" when it's what most Hawaiians listen to, play & often perform? Next time you grab a kleenex, ask yourself why you call it that and not a "tissue." trust me, when the Kleenex brand name copyright expires, "facial tissue" as a name will cease to exist and all brands will be _______ kleenex. Use determine correctness ultimately whether we like it or not. That's how language works. So, in OUR minds, "tiki music" may be something very specific (although, HELLO, we can't even agreee amongst OURSELVES), whatever the general public considers "tiki" is what will be "tiki"...even if it's a reggae version of "Sittin' on The Dock Of The Bay.."...perish the thought.

You guys are funny, I know this is going to ruffle a few feathers
There is no "Tiki Music" the topic of this thread should be "Exotica Defined"
If you are talking the classic 1950s-60s Tiki Bars/Supperclubs you heard
the popular music of the day and Hawaiian music, no Exotica

(Art Snyder did mention of a rare exception
of Denny & Lyman playing once or twice at the Hollywood "Don the Beachcomber")

Now if you talking "Tiki Revival" well we got all kinds of music that really sounds great
in a Tiki Lounge and you can label it "Tiki Music" if you like (Which I am a big fan of boys & girls)

There is a lot of revisionism going on here in TC, I prefer the actual history as apposed to idealized versions of it and those are the facts.

[ Edited by: Chuck Tatum is Tiki 2011-10-12 12:53 ]

There is no such thing as Tiki Music!

On 2011-10-12 10:53, Kaiwaza wrote:
Well, I don't "trust" the general public in much of anything, but that doesn't change reality. Who defines what's "disco" and what isn't? Who can argue that reggae (God forbid) is "Hawaiian" when it's what most Hawaiians listen to, play & often perform? Next time you grab a kleenex, ask yourself why you call it that and not a "tissue." trust me, when the Kleenex brand name copyright expires, "facial tissue" as a name will cease to exist and all brands will be _______ kleenex. Use determine correctness ultimately whether we like it or not. That's how language works. So, in OUR minds, "tiki music" may be something very specific (although, HELLO, we can't even agreee amongst OURSELVES), whatever the general public considers "tiki" is what will be "tiki"...even if it's a reggae version of "Sittin' on The Dock Of The Bay.."...perish the thought.

I have to disagree with you Kaiwaza (with respect)
it is an individual or small group (and sadly sometimes an Ad firm) that usually defines an Art-form, Music-form or even a popular term or label and not the masses.

it is the public that ether buys it or makes it popular.

On 2011-10-12 12:42, Jeff Central wrote:
There is no such thing as Tiki Music!

Ha, ha...

Yup, one can argue that "Tiki music" and "Tiki drinks" taken literally are both Tiki Revival wishful thinking.

After all, Exotica music and Tropical cocktails would still exist even if some smart businessman (Steve Crane?, Bob Bryant?) had never thought to use a tiki as a restaurant mascot.

But if the Tiki Revival is indeed a true culture or lifestyle then we do need our own OFFICIAL drinks and music. Thus Exotica = Tiki Music and Tropical Cocktails = Tiki Drinks. Now excuse me while I change into my Tiki shirt.

:D :D :D

EDIT - Ooops, I see that Chuck Tatum (and obviously Jeff Central) beat me to the punch with this thought. Great Tiki minds think alike. Anyways this is a fun discussion (not argument !!).

Double EDIT - Also Chucky I would disagree with your assertion that Exotica wasn't played in the Tiki bar. This offering by Jeff Central is proof that it was...

[ Edited by: JOHN-O 2011-10-12 14:41 ]

Eh, none of this is blabbering Mr. Ho! Like me, you are passionate - that shows in your music. Hell, if you weren't passionate you'd be trying for a radio hit by making execrable noise that would make a vulture fall off a $hitwagon. No offense to people who love radio hits of course! >:P

I'm fascinated that not one single person has addressed my challenge vis-a-vis "If I say it's Tiki, it's Tiki, so Hank Williams and trilobites are Tiki". That's okay though - it's inarguable and you do me great honor by your continued silence. :)

I think it's been a pretty accepted thing on TC that you can 'define' classic tiki music as one thing and define the modern tiki revival music as tiki music as well... I think (and hope) that people with discerning palettes can see where the tiki label works and doesn't work though.

And I do agree that it's dumb to say "it's tiki because I say it's tiki". And unless you've heard on TC that Hank Williams and cart racing is tiki (maybe you have) I think you're conflating.

komohana and Chuck Tatum, I wasn't trying to drag this thread OT simply by addressing Mr. Ho's description of his music as an evolved form of exotica. I don't need to; Tiki music was well-defined over half a century ago. It is Polynesian pop and exotica, period. Hapa-haole music of the kind played in Hawaiian hotels (although it should also be made clear that a lot of that is not hapa-haole but traditional Hawaiian songs given mid-century treatment - electric steel, loungey crooning vocals etc).

You guys all need to go listen to some of the Hawaii Calls shows, some Alfred Apaka. It's out there, just go use Google. I am appalled to think the Creepy Creeps or Ding Dong Devils are regarded as Tiki - once again, why? Because they said so? Because they put "Tiki" words in their titles? Balls; cf. my previous posts. Not good enough. Egotism, coattail riding, 21st century ME-ism. And not to put too fine a point on it - they sound like adolescent garage bands, their musicianship is nothing to write home about. The truth hurts, don't it?

You wonder why so many long-time members, the real rediscoverers of Tiki, have fallen off? Are we "old and in the way", no longer relevant? Think about that, boys and girls. Tiki is ABOUT old, it is NOT a new thing but a nostalgic trip into the past. If the past isn't good enough, maybe find a different lifestyle niche to try on. Once you've trashed that out of recognition, you can try another.

See, now I really AM pissed. And I regret rejoining if this is what has become of what even so-called Tiki people have made of the Tiki scene. Aloha, y'all. And this time it means goodbye.

On 2011-10-13 09:20, emspace wrote:
I'm fascinated that not one single person has addressed my challenge vis-a-vis "If I say it's Tiki, it's Tiki, so Hank Williams and trilobites are Tiki". That's okay though - it's inarguable and you do me great honor by your continued silence. :)

emspace, don't get mad...

And you wouldn't consider the following mid-century tunes "Tiki music" ??....

Honky Tonk / Rockabilly...

1. Honolulu Rock-A Roll-A by Moon Mullican
2. Everybody Does It In Hawaii by Jimmie Rodgers
3. Hula-Rock by Bill Browning
4. Bop-A-Hula by Jimmy Newman

Surf music...

5. Tum-Tiki by the The Enchanters
6. Bali Hai' by the Irridescents

I do. :)

Also we all pitched in and got you this for Christmas. :D

On 2011-10-13 11:15, JOHN-O wrote:

Surf music...

5. Tum-Tiki by the The Enchanters

I do. :)

and if that isn't enough proof, Here is the Tiki Tones doin' it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiptR-RCUqE&feature=related

and there is a guy in the band on Guitar maybe you might have heard of him,
Josh Agle, oh wait, maybe you know him better as SHAG.
tell him, he didn't play Tiki Music.
:roll:

Jeff(btd)

I'm going to be packing up my DJ gear, and heading out to Mojave for the Goin' Primitive event.
I'm DJ'ing all weekend.

during the Day, I am going to be playing lots of Hapa Haole, Slack Key, Tahitian drum music,
and 50's and 60's kitchy Hawaiian music.

But then later in the day, before the bands play,
I am gonna switch over to some spooky surf, and Garage, to go with the Primitive, and Halloween theme for this event.

I could do 1 or the other all weekend.
but to me, it gets old if I were to play 3 days 10 hours a day,
of just traditional and vintage music.

Jeff(btd)

If I eat Spam Mussubi, then fart thru a Didgeridoo
Is that Tiki Music?

Jeff(btd)

No need for anyone to get angry here, it is a good topic to rattle around over drinks!
did someone say drinks!

my point was simply we have a dichotomy of influences, the Classic Tiki Scene from the good old days
and today's "Tiki Revival"
The Classic scene is set in stone, the music, food, drinks & mode of dress all are documented and you can't change that.

But the modern Tiki Revival is a living, mutating, still growing movement, which I hope honors its roots
but has become so much more.

Now if I had a time machine, I would be at Don the Beachcomber in Hollywood 1955 right now with a suit and tie on
having a time of it, oh! look its Lana Turner.

So emspace get back here, have your say and a drink :drink:

My mind likes to categorize things. It calms me. So I find less discordance and disagreement when I re-frame the question into What is "Classic Tiki Music" and What is "Tiki Revival Music". Of course, as Jeff Central pointed out, there is no such thing as Tiki Music. At least there wasn't (history is messy and flexible and not rigid). Tiki Music is a modern definition by us based on past trends and current trends, and it's still being defined today. Heck, this thread is probably helping to define it.

Tiki Revival Music has embraced a bunch of retro or nostalgic music genres of the same era (50s/60s) and has created some new hybrids as well. I dig it all, and I think it all has a place here in Tiki Music because it's part of Tiki Revival. I think that Jimmy Buffett's music is like the guy in shorts and flip-flops that tries to get a seat at Trader Vic's during the suit-and-tie era and is swiftly and politely refused service. He and his friends might be offended because they thought that Trader Vic's was the same thing as the Rusty Pelican Fish Shack because they both had an anchor and fish floats out front, but they aren't. Similarly there's still a majority of Tiki-Revival folks who like their music to taste of "Mid-Century" and have a bit of the sophisticated, the urbane, or the exotic in it, (heck, even the surf bands wore suits!)

This isn't new. Back in the mid-sixties, there was a culture clash at a beach-side tiki bar in Long Beach, California because guys in swimsuits and shorts were walking over from the beach to catch the lunch-time bikini fashion show that was supposed to draw the businessmen in. There were angry editorials in the local papers, citing this as a prime example of the decay of culture as it applied to dinner-dress that was occurring at other restaurants and bars in Los Angeles as well. For better or worse, that change happened in the end. Who knows? In 10 or 20 years the same change may eventually occur with Tiki Revival music, and Jimmy Buffett might be lumped in with it whether we like it or not.

Now, when we talk of Classic Tiki Music, (a term we've made up, because we like to categorize history), I'm content with confining it to those types of music that were "unique" to tiki restaurants of the mid-century - namely Hawaiian and Exotica. That's not to say that tiki restaurants ONLY played those two genres, because they played a fair amount of dance music as well. But so did every restaurant.

When we get down to the smaller tiki bars, it gets messier. I'd say, (based on newspaper research), that a slight majority of them had a Hawaiian combo playing hapa-haole music or a girl in the corner playing the ukulele - but not a large majority. You were just as likely to find a Jazz combo or a Greek combo or a polka band or a torch-singer. The Chinese restaurants that converted to Tiki often only added the decor and drinks but booked a staggering array of music and performers, including country-music, magicians, comedians and psychics to entertain the guests.

In the late 60's, most places, (if they could afford it), added a room in the back or the basement for the Go-Go dancing and Rock bands the younger crowd wanted. Later, in the 1970s, the majority of tiki restaurants converted completely to Rock and Disco, because the musical tastes of society changed faster than their taste for ribs and won-tons and rum drinks, which lasted much longer.

[ Edited by: Sabu The Coconut Boy 2011-10-13 17:27 ]

Ah, yesss...Sabu the voice of reason, good to hear from you. I've been pondering it all day - because that's how long it takes to get to and from my doc's for my annual probing session. Plenty of time to watch the world go by on public transit and ponder. And I have had a request to stay from a longtime member as well.

I have no trouble seeing threads of continuity along the lines of "South Seas, headhunting, shrunken heads, The Cramps, creepy rockabilly...Tiki!" I get it. And no culture, so they tell me, can live in a vacuum. That's why Hawaiians play reggae (gag!).

What bothers me here is that, though this looks cool on the surface, it is about homogeneity, the blending of things that, no matter how jarringly disparate, are forced into marriage simply because people don't care about preserving what's worth preserving. That's why Hawaiian music has had to die and be revived by people who care about it, again and again. It's why most Jamaicans have dumped reggae and listen to dancehall - four-on-the-floor global electronic HOMOGENEITY.

Catch that idea: WORTH PRESERVING. Or was it also cool that all those restaurants - the Kahiki, folks - got homogenized straight into America's landfills? Because let's face it - very few people thought they were worth preserving. Are you seriously telling me that if you put a "Tiki" buzzword in a song title that's enough to make it Tiki music? Maybe you are, and you're certainly entitled to your opinion.

Tiki is part of the past, and I cherish what it was because I respect that past. No, I don't call the Tiki Tones Tiki music, and I couldn't care less if God Almighty was in the band. They're a surf band, and surf is part of an adolescent culture specific to 1960s California. Tiki is something actual adults were into; and folks, when it becomes all about roping in the kiddies to make a buck, it is sure as hell going to become unrecognizably homogenized before you can catch your breath. Tiki is NOT rebellion and freakiness - you're getting it confused with rock culture again, you're mixing your rum with Olde English 800. Honky-tonk: nope, though yes, some country guys played Hawaiian songs though that isn't what I'd call Tiki - they were either letting their steel players pay tribute to their roots, as I've mentioned earlier, or just plain cashing in like Hank Snow did when he recorded an entire album of Hawaiian songs.

That said, bigtikidude, thanks for the link to the lovely fez. But no, didgeridoos are the anti-Tiki, mainly because hippies play them. :)

Now I really do need a drink. It's always scary seeing the noobs and the wannabes piling onto something you really love and callously reshaping it to meet their own tastes, but I guess that's our culture in a nutshell. And I am not referring to the people here who've responded so decently and thoughtfully - but SOMEONE is behind this, and I'm gonna find out who, and I'm gonna pull a Clockwork Orange on their asses: strapped into a chair with the headphones on and my entire collection of vintage Hawaiian pumped into their skulls. Again: you are all entitled to listen to and love to pieces anything you like - I remember a post here from years ago where a guy was all verklmept because I dissed "A Horse With No Name" - but I still say it ain't Tiki.

On 2011-10-13 16:44, Sabu The Coconut Boy wrote:
My mind likes to categorize things. It calms me.

It's called OCD Sabu.

and Emspace.
I didn't post the link to the Fez, not a Fan of the Fez.
and I know that a Didgeridoo, isn't tiki, I was trying to be funny,
and I thought Aborigines played them, not hippies.
I am not a Hippie, Though people think I am one, because I have long hair.
But I don't like Patchouli oil and I like to bathe.

as for Surf not being tiki.
I admit that most of the 60's surf was heavy rock, and or R & B.
But there are exceptions to the rule, and I think that some(the 2 that John O posted)]
are good examples of a surf band bringing the Tiki/Hawaiian/tropical vibe that they caught from their parents music, or backyard parties and incorporated it into what they were doing.

Would the general public of 25 and over tiki bar goer want to hear it back then?
Probably not, but it doesn't discount the fact that the kids felt the cool vibe,
and wanted to play it.

Now in the 90's thru current.
There are way more surf bands incorporating the Tiki Vibe into their repertoire,
weather you like it or not.

I like it,
applaud it,
and want more of it.

I have said before, and will say again.
I like Traditional Hawaiian, Hapa Haole, and Slack Key, and Classic Exotica.
but it can get kinda sleepy, and needs some picking up sometimes.

This is why I love Tikiyaki so much,
they take the best elements of Hawaiian, Lounge and Exotica,
and put a fresh new twist on it, and bring it to the modern scene.

I say if you live life in mothballs,
you get a sour taste in your mouth.

Jeff(btd)

Here is a great thread regarding what is and is not tiki music. Emspace, thanks for staying and keeping your ground, we need more of this kind of discussions on TC.

http://www.tikicentral.com/viewtopic.php?topic=34417&forum=11&hilite=sven

On 2011-10-13 18:33, bigtikidude wrote:

I say if you live life in mothballs,
you get a sour taste in your mouth.

Jeff(btd)

"Mothballs" - Jeff, I am trying to be as diplomatic as I can...maybe not worth the effort though. You're saying the scene MUST change and pile influence upon influence until it's no longer in any way recognizable? Fine, you work on that. It's called neophilia, the disease that makes our culture a grotesque laughingstock - the desperate endless search for the new. Because new MUST be better - right? When you say "needs picking up", I hear "pummelled with adolescent noise". There is a lot - A LOT - of classic Hawaiian lounge music out there that is uptempo and big fun. Maybe your collection is kinda small though?

In that other thread (thanks hiltiki), Lucas provides solid proof that he GETS it, with a clear statement of hapa-haole as the real deal central to the Tiki scene and slack key not being part of it. Absolutely spot on; slack key is folk music and was never, ever associated with the Tiki scene. It's what native Hawaiian families played at their backyard parties. Most haoles outside Hawaii never even heard of it until George Winston founded Dancing Cat Records, although some bands like the Sons of Hawaii forged a whole new sound by combining slack key with 'ukulele and steel. Oh hey, and there's Sabu bringing up the label too - I'm reading the thread as I type...

And I think people are mistaking "hapa-haole" as being only the old Tin Pan Alley influenced 78s, the way they go on about it being "pre-Tiki". Hapa-haole SONGS are what matters here, and they are all STILL being played by real Hawaiian musicians and their admirers today. Blah, blah...don't think I can make it through 12 more pages of this...it has been so done to death to, plainly, no effect.

Basically I think the scene was bound from the get-go to be turned into crap by the self-centeredness of your modern kiddie hipster with his/her need to expand the definition of a scene until it encompasses everything THEY think is cool. When I rejoined TC I was stunned to not only notice a lot of familiar longtime members gone, but to immediately find a thread suggesting Hawaiiana doesn't belong in the Tiki scene. As for me, today I bought digital downloads of Alfred Apaka and Atta Isaacs (not Tiki, just beautiful is all) from Cord International - music I'll be listening to until I die. I wouldn't walk across the street to see the Creepy Creeps play for free - in fact I'd call in a noise complaint - but YMMV. Enjoy. And nuff said. I've been asked to stay but we'll have to see. Got to practice steel, too, in the hope that one day I'll form a band that aspires to what the Smokin' Menehunes have been doing for years. Everything takes time, and time is precious - it needs to be spent wisely.

[ Edited by: emspace 2011-10-13 21:16 ]

floggin' the dead horse again.

[ Edited by: komohana 2011-10-15 20:36 ]

On 2011-10-13 21:13, emspace wrote:
"Mothballs" - Jeff, I am trying to be as diplomatic as I can...maybe not worth the effort though. You're saying the scene MUST change and pile influence upon influence until it's no longer in any way recognizable? Fine, you work on that. It's called neophilia, the disease that makes our culture a grotesque laughingstock - the desperate endless search for the new. Because new MUST be better - right?...

emspace, I'm not sure what you mean by "scene". It's the same scene here in So Ca that inspired The Hula Girls and the Ding Dong Devils (two bands that probably don't fit into your definition of Tiki music) that also gave birth to the Smokin' Menenunes and Tikyaki Orchestra. In fact we've had events that have featured all of these bands on the same bill. We've had the renovation of historic Tiki establishments and the opening of new ones. We have art shows, fund raisers, and several multi-day events that draw hundreds of Tikiphiles. This isn't a historical reenactment of mid-century Tiki but rather a natural evolution that I would argue is still true to the original spirit of Tiki-style.

Do you really consider this neophilia ?? And if so then what's the Tiki scene in Vancouver like ??

emspace I think you forgot the "Tiki Prime Directive" it is the very reason Tiki was created
and that is having "Fun" it is the base of all we spend our time here on.

You take the fun out it and its not "Tiki" classic or Revival.
soooooooo........:P :P :P

Actually Tiki was created as a gimmick to get people to drink in bars, eat in restaurants, and stay in hotels. There was no purist scene as much as we'd like to imagine it. (But out of commerce sprouted art.)

The true "scene" is the Tiki Revival of today. :)

[ Edited by: JOHN-O 2011-10-13 23:14 ]

Yes John-o, but people went because it was a good time.

There IS no Tiki scene in Vancouver, just as in the rest of North America. The Tiki scene is in my head and heart, exactly as it ought to be for everyone; when those of us have it in their heads and hearts come together and celebrate, that's a Tiki party. Creating posters and advertising a Tiki "event" with rockabilly bands isn't a Tiki party - it's a coattail-riding cash grab. I am not a club-joiner, that's not what drew me to Tiki; I am not gonna Tweet about Tiki or post about how I'm going to a "Tiki" event in my Facebook page.

Vancouver has one famous Tiki bar, and the DJ plays, among other things, The Carpenters and Andy Williams. Why not? That's Tiki, isn't it?

Yes, it's neophilia when you call punk with "Tiki" song titles Tiki, just as it is if you form a band like Afro-Celt Sound System. And no, the Ding Dong Devils and Hula Girls aren't Tiki - sorry Bong, if you're reading this. But as I've always known, working musicians want paying gigs, and as many as possible. I know a great funk-jazz bassist who has said he would play for Madonna in a heartbeat, simply because it would pay buckets of cash, and never mind that her music would make a vulture retch.

Chuck Tatum, yes, fun is the thing of course - but as I've tried hard to explain, we don't all need to have EXACTLY THE SAME KIND OF DUFUS ADOLESCENT FUN. Cultural homogeneity SUCKS, and it needs to get called out and mocked at every turn.

JOHN-O, your points are well taken - if the scene really is the Tiki Revival - including the Creepy Creeps - then I'm not part of the scene at all and don't want to be.

komohana, your turn. When I said didgeridoo is played by hippies, I meant here in North America of course. And the reason I won't e.g. take up hula or Hawaiian chant no matter how cool I think they are is precisely the reason you've described: not the fear of getting beaten obviously, but respect. Next: Tiki music was well-defined by the people who played it and the people who listened to it and partied to it - because Tiki is over half a century old - so your suggesting that Hawaiian and exotica defines it is exactly on point, as I've been saying. Finally on the subject of steel: I took it up in June of THIS YEAR. I have played percussion, drums, guitar, bass, and voice for over 30 years. Been collecting and listening to Hawaiian music seriously for about 15 years. Hopefully that explains why I haven't formed a Hawaiian band yet?

You know, there are Hawaiians who say that the word "haole" means "no soul". Whether or not it's actually linguistically true makes no difference - it's being said. Think about that.

Well, you've just proven yourself to be self aggrandizing and elitist. To say that Bong is playing in The Hula Girls simply because of 'a steady paycheck' is ridiculous. Especially when there is little to no money in what we do. He and I started The Smokin Menehunes together and he helped to put a lot of our songs together too.

And to say that The Hula Girls or the Tiki Tones arent tiki (albeit Modern tiki) shows your bitterness and alienation from what's going on in the hub of the tiki scene down here in southern California.

NOBODY is linking the Carpenters to tiki. You're conflating again.

Since you mentioned my band the Ding Dong Devils emspace (and that you were "appalled" that we would be thought of as "Tiki"--which proves you are far more passionate about the subject of establishing strict boundaries than I am, since I'm not too concerned about what musical genre or label we fit under really), I figured I should respond to this.

The idea of "Tiki" as a musical genre and lifestyle and everything we now think of only exists now, and for the past 15-20 years. It was a unique creation by a group of historians, collectors, artists and others, many of whom came from punk rock, rockabilly, mod, hot rod, lowbrow, post-beatnik, etc. backgrounds.

The original "Tiki" and "Tiki Music" was purely a commercial medium created to sell drinks, food and music. There was no actual lifestyle associated with it in the way we think of it now, nor the passion for it there is now. I know because I lived through the original era, and my mother was the archetypal "customer." She got into Hawaiian and polynesian motifs, but in a casual diversionary way that most people did in those days(other than folks like Don the Beachcomber or the Oceanic Arts guys). She took us to the Outrigger in South Laguna regularly for Sunday brunches (and sometimes Royal Hawaiian and other Polynesian palaces). She had Martin Denny and Arthur Lyman records (and I might add when she took my brother and I to see Lyman--kicking and screaming at the time, I totally admit--in Corona del Mar, CA, it was at a nondescript non-"Tiki" restaurant, not the CDM Don the Beachcomber which wasn't very far away, or the Laguna places I mentioned). The original customers for the exotic restaurants and exotic music bands were (with a minority of exceptions) not into it as a "lifestyle" as we think of it today, more of a temporary diversion from their suit and tie world. For instance, few people in the early 1960's would have put forth such a passionate definition of what is or isn't Tiki or exotica music as you have emspace, nobody really thought about it as such, and whoever did everyone understood it was strictly a commercial musical medium and, more importantly, a diversion in their lives, not a focus.

Much brilliant music came out of this original commercial medium (in the 1950's and 1960's, some of the best music came out of purely commercial forms, and even commercial jingles themselves) but it should always be recognized that. My dad, who actually served in World War II, like Duke Ellington and Benny Goodman and thought my mom's taste in music (including and maybe particularly Denny and Lyman), and needless to say rock and roll was never spoke of (except the time my dad laughed about how his friends mocked the song Earth Angel when it came out--see two paragraphs later for further details on this mindset).

Many feel that Robert Drasnin's Voodoo is the best exotica album--it' brilliant. But Drasnin himself has admitted he was not enthusiastic about the project at first, since he was a jazz artist and would rather have continued his energies in that direction. He certainly wasn't think "I'm a Tiki musician." Arthur Lyman was no doubt proud of his considerable achievements, but would have probably just as soon have been invited to play jazz festivals doing jazz vibes a la Red Norvo and Cal Tjader wearing a suit and not an Aloha shirt. I'll bet none of these people ever used the phrase "Tiki music." So really, the bands today making what some may call "Tiki Music" are the first musical groups to be identified as such.

The most important thing about the original Polynesian restaurants of the 1950's and 1960's (and "Polynesian" was the phrase I heard my mother and other adults say most frequently to describe these restaurants back then, never "Tiki"--they didn't place Tikis as a particularly important thing, just one of the many decor embellishments), which any TC folks too young to have lived through the 60's youth revolution (and I was extremely young, but remember seeing the hippies on the streets of Laguna Beach when driving by) is...

THE GENERATION GAP WAS STILL IN PLACE!!

This is the single most important thing in understanding what kind of music was actually played at Polynesian restaurants in those days. Quite simply, before the very late 60's/early 70's, adults and teenagers did not mingle at the same establishments. Polynesian restaurants were for adults only, or children and teens dining with them and behaving like adults. However, the bars and showrooms only featured music that adults listened to then, and adults did not listen to rock and roll. With only occasional exceptions, surf bands did not play at Polynesian restaurants (until after things started to change in the early 70's). Surf bands were almost strictly at teen canteens and auditoriums where the under 21/under 18 crowd could go. Polynesian restaurants were more likely to have adult pop standards singers or jazz when not featuring Hawaiian music and exotica, but never rock and roll. If rock and roll bands were playing at a Polynesian restaurant, it meant it was on it's last legs and about to go (see Kono Hawaii in Santa Ana in the 1980's, when it started booking people like David Crosby right before folding).

But the generation gap doesn't matter that much now--you can see 55-year-olds and 18-year-olds enjoying the same tiki event (or at the same punk rock show for that matter), and now surf music is intrinsically wrapped in Tiki/exotica in the current Tiki scene (as is rockabilly and other forms) and it is Tiki.

In short, enspace, you are upholding the sanctity of something that never really existed, but I admire your passion!

Caltiki Brent

I notice you ain't in the Menehunes any more, lucky - the ONE band I know of that really got it. Son las cosas de la vida, eh? Yeah, this alienation from CRAP - really painful and bitter for me, not being a club-joiner and all...and I think Bong has the fortitude to stand up to my criticism. And yeah, I'm elitist, if by that you mean I hate shit and am content to point it out when shit is shit. Better an elitist than an open storm drain accepting every bit of shit the current washes into it, I always say. Elitist is a badge of honor for me - it's just you saying "Hey, this guys isn't full of shit! He actually is passionate enough about something to learn it and know it and give a damn about it - the bastard!"

And to say SoCal is the "hub" of Tiki is just more shit. Heart and head, lucky, wherever you are, or it just isn't worth a damn.

So here we find just one of numerous examples of threads about Hawaiiana not being Tiki: http://www.tikicentral.com/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic=41170&forum=13&start=0

You know what? Poi WAS served at tourist luaus - I have a nice Hilton Hawaiian Village "King Kamehameha Luau" menu that was tucked into my signed copy of "The Folk Music of Hawaii in Book and Record" by the Sons of Hawaii, and poi is listed there - not that I needed that to prove it, as I have eaten poi at tourist luaus myself.

And here's the definitive current position statement on Tiki it seems: "Just because something was traditionally associated with tiki does not mean we need to continue that tradition."

That's right - you can in fact take a dump on EVERYTHING that was traditionally associated with Tiki and remake it in your own image - just as you ARE doing. And Sven: I mean you too. You're just scrambling to keep up with the changes imposed by the kiddie noobs, and it's pathetically obvious, although your first book was still brilliant - no mention of surf music or suggestion of Hawaiiana not being part of Tiki to be found, anywhere. How ABOUT that, eh?

If Hawaii isn't Tiki and the Creepy Creeps are - I'm out. Here for your enlightenment is an email from a great friend, a non-member, who is also a musician who incidentally plays in a punk band and has no investment whatever in the Tiki (insert sound of my spit hitting the floor) scene:

"I think this is what Vincent Bugliosi would call a ‘mental poverty’ issue. Tiki is not and never was a FORM OF MUSIC, though there may have been music associated with it in its day, and it would be possible to play in that style today. Sure as heck wouldn’t be punk or rockabilly though. I’m thinking more maybe Martin Denny, or of course actual Polynesian music.

What a buncha wankers. I think you nail it when you say anything THEY like is now officially Tiki. It’s so illiterate, that kind of worldview. Trying to impose yourself on stuff that’s already happened, and had nothing to do with you. Read your fcking history, shtsticks!"

And with those wise words - aloha!

congawa, thanks for the reasoned reply. All your points are well taken - which is why I'm out. I loathe a bastardized "scene", no joiner I. So goodbye and good luck. I've made some amazing connections here at TC during my return that I can now take offline - I've mined the little gold there was to mine so to speak. Scenes blow, relationships rule. Nuff said.

[ Edited by: lucas vigor 2016-09-23 13:05 ]

emspace, I can really picture the horror on your face if you walked into a mid century Polynesian
supper club and you hear Sinatra singing the "Girl from Ipanema"

One thing I do agree with you on is "Hawaiiana" was a part of classic Tiki from day one, so I say it is "Tiki"
but I have to fight for that one also.

Your attitude that any music you do not like, particularly Punk, Rockabilly ,Tiki Revival etc. is juvenile crap is so completely closed minded, that its making me want to mainline a weeks supply of "Metamucil"

You don't have to like other styles of music (even if you don't get them) but it doesn't make it crap just because you say so, Hence the"Closed Mind" remark.

Brent & Spike (Members of the very two bands you are attacking) are very much old school Tiki aficionados
And Brents "Music" knowledge would kick your musical knowledge's ass, and he would do it in a such a way,
you would thank him, then buy him a drink.

Your remark about the Hula Girls & Ding Dong Devils doing it just for the money is just plain ignorant
They are lucky if they get a cocktail out of it, the only reason they do what they do, is because they love it
no one is getting rich from these bands, that was just a stupid remark.

And if your constant threat of leaving TC again & again wasn't juvenile, then I don't know what is?

So are you back Lucas?

[ Edited by: lucas vigor 2016-09-23 13:06 ]

Its good to hear from you Lucas, I very much like the music you & emspace advocate for
I also find it a bit funny that you are in the very bands, emspace is both pissing on and praising
now that's a dichotomy!

But I also come from the first generation Punk scene and completely get what the "Tiki Revival" bands are doing.
I know you do to & I respect your "Purist" taste in classic "Tiki" music.

There is room for both & you are right in saying not enough people are supporting it,
you and I both see that a much smaller group of TCers are really involved in supporting the Tiki Bars,Bands & Artists and many here just talk on & on with out getting physically involved in the scene.

On 2011-10-14 12:04, emspace wrote:

That's right - you can in fact take a dump on EVERYTHING that was traditionally associated with Tiki and remake it in your own image - just as you ARE doing. And Sven: I mean you too. You're just scrambling to keep up with the changes imposed by the kiddie noobs, and it's pathetically obvious, although your first book was still brilliant - no mention of surf music or suggestion of Hawaiiana not being part of Tiki to be found, anywhere. How ABOUT that, eh?

"scrambling to keep up with the changes imposed by the kiddie noobs" What an absolutely ridiculous statement!

I see no imposition on my point of view (as in change of mind) enacted on me from anywhere:

Tiki style being defined as MAINLAND USA's twisted take on Hawaiian and Polynesian culture, thus being simply more interesting than anything from Hawaii itself.

Surf music and Hawaiiana were not mentioned in the Book of Tiki consciously because in my view they are not part of the genre.

[ Edited by: lucas vigor 2016-09-23 13:07 ]

Lucas I did not know you are out of the Hula Girls, I am sad about that.

please note I love all the music from 40's 50s & 60s, Motown & Jazz too, but I still like the now "classic" music
of the "Punk", PostPunk, Art Punk & Rockabilly Revival era's also.

I want it all!

when are we going to see you again?

I understand where Lucas and emspace are coming from to a certain degree. I think they react to Surf music (as one example) being allowed in this forum in the same way I would react if I saw an Swiss Chalet-themed apartment allowed in the Locating Tiki forum.

One radical way to fix this would be to have Hanford divide this forum into "Traditional Tiki Music" and "Music of the Modern Tiki Scene". Over in the Traditional Tiki Music forum, all you would find would be discussions on Hawaiian and Exotica music. That would solve the problem, although one forum would get a lot more traffic than the other.

So why isn't this an issue in the other forums? Why don't we need a "Traditional Tiki Architecture" and "Modern Tiki Architecture"? Why don't we need a "Traditional Tiki Carving" and "Tiki Revival Carving" forum? Why the huge schism in Tiki Music?

Because there's a difference in the aspect of the forums. General Tiki, Locating Tiki, and Creating Tiki are all about the artistic and historical aspects of the Poly-pop movement. Tiki Food & Drink, and Tiki Events tend to be more about the social aspects of the movement. Tiki Music is a hybrid. It's got its artistic and historical aspect (which I think is the primary appeal to users like emspace and Lucas) and then it has a social aspect which is key to the DJs and Bands playing at restaurants and modern Tiki Revival events.

Poly-Pop architecture, decor, and the carved Tiki himself are more foundational to the Poly-Pop movement, because they provide the physical environment under which the social aspects can be enjoyed. The physical environments of the Tiki Movement in the 50s & 60s were SO compelling in fact, that they have become the umbrella that a bunch of other mid-century nostalgia groups have congregated under. In the 60s, you could have seen Hawaiian, Burlesque, Jazz, Swing or Samba music at a Tiki venue. At today's Tiki Revival events it's become even more of a fusion, with surf, rockabilly, etc. thrown in.

I'm trying to think of another themed-movement of the 60s that can even compare. Maybe vintage Las Vegas and the way it has attracted other nostalgia groups besides Rat-Pack aficionados.

Now suppose, for an instant, that the Poly-pop movement had died in the 40s with Don The Beachcomber and a few South Seas bars. Suppose instead, another mid-century movement, the Viking Smorgasbord Restaurant was the one that flowered and grew. There was already one of these restaurants in every major city, and like the Polynesian restaurants, they were a mongrel hybrid containing Scandinavian, Alpine, and Bavarian elements. Suppose giant Viking Longhouse restaurants sprung up in every city with outrigger beams carved like dragon or dog heads, lavish wooden interiors with intricately carved surfaces and Viking longboats hanging from the ceilings and a stylized funeral pyre out front to light the entrance. They would serve a wonderful array of Smorgasbord foods and fine-crafted German beers and ales. Suppose that was the most compelling restaurant and apartment theme of the 60s?

I can guarantee that in this forum, folks would be saying, "How did Surf and Burlesque become Smorgasbord? We should only be discussing Yodeling and Polka music, since that's what they played in those restaurants." And other folks would be saying, "Yodeling and Polka music is fine in limited amounts, but when I'm at Valhalla VI, I want to have my Viking soul stirred by dark Nordic Surf and I want to watch a hot valkyrie in a winged helmet strip down to pasties and a chastity belt to a bump-and-grind band."

But instead of the Viking Smorgasbord, it was the Polynesian Restaurant that went full mutant and evolved to such a cultural freak, and now it is the compelling venue that all these other mid-century subcultures are getting together at.

I'm all for purity in the history of Tiki and foundations of the movement. However, for the current Tiki Scene, I want it to be a bastard. As long as the new elements ENHANCE instead of DILUTE the experience. I think emspace sees these new elements as diluting the history of the movement, where I see the best of them as enhancing the current social aspect of the movement. If over in Tiki Drinks, we can embrace a new cocktail recipe that complexly adds new ingredients to the classic rum base, why can't we in Tiki Music embrace a band that melds Hawaiian and Rockabilly music together and creates something that is eminently danceable in the bar after I've eaten my dinner listening to Exotica in the dining room?

The hub of the modern tiki resurgance isn't California?? How many events are centered here? How many restaurants and bars (new and old) are here??

Yes, the Smokin Menehunes are much better without me. I'd concede that in a heartbeat. Way to 'get' me (especially by doing it in Spanish. Wow.)
I set out to put together something new and high energy. Don't call it 'tiki', I'm fine with that. But to come on Tiki Central and denegrate me, my friends, or the people you are responding to is immature, arrogant, and rude, not passionate.

Our song structure is based on hapa haole music and layered with tiki themes - AND Lucas Vigor was in the band. So, call it whatever... This conversation has already wasted too much of my time. We dont even refer to it as tiki music anyway. You dragged me into this by bringing my band up.

The Hula Girls will be playing something that remotely has ties to tiki, tonight, at Don the Beachcomber at 9.
I'm done with this thread.

I just read what you wrote, Sabu. Well said.
Sabu has always been the most well thought out and diplomatic guy on TC. I applaud you.

And you should see Sabu dance!

On 2011-10-14 14:32, Chuck Tatum is Tiki wrote:

Brent & Spike (Members of the very two bands you are attacking) are very much old school Tiki aficionados
And Brents "Music" knowledge would kick your musical knowledge's ass, and he would do it in a such a way,
you would thank him, then buy him a drink.

And if your constant threat of leaving TC again & again wasn't juvenile, then I don't know what is?

Two things are wrong here: one, the idea that anyone who plays the crap you're talking about could "kick my ass" is nonsense, and this is obviously the observation of a non-musician. In what way? They can immediately play the Mixolydian of E-flat on any instrument? Or they have a wider view of the musical world - despite my having been completely devoted to music and musical research from all over the planet for over 4 decades, and played multiple instruments in multiple styles for over 3? Which one, Chuck?

As to constantly threatening to leave again and again - you're clearly mistaking me for someone else. And who the hell thought I was mocking the Menehunes? I can't even be arsed to read back to find out...I said THEY GOT IT. Please READ before posting.

Most of you guys are actually pretty nice people, no question - pity you have to get so personal when I call out the fact that you have shat on the definition of Tiki music, because to me (and obviously to many other people) I simply stated a fact. If I say punk or surf are crap, I'm stating an opinion - I don't avoid them like the bubonic plague because I think they're cool but "don't get it" - if you hate something, you ought to have the courage and forthrightness to say you think it's crap. This weak-ass Zen hippie "it's all good" crap is one of the most irritating things I'm seeing here. I have fantastic ears and taste nurtured by decades of seeking and finding the good stuff, and I also know I'm going to croak one day and that - here's a direct quote I made in a music thread that must surely be 8 years old: I know I have limited time to hear music and don't want to waste that time on dreck. Why would I? That's crazy by any definition! Whatsammata guys, you AFRAID of beauty? Does beauty make you itchy, make you feel like your postmodern ironic stance is getting queered in some indefinable way? Cowards!

But in point of fact, I never said they were crap - did I? Again: read first. I just said they don't belong in Tiki. Nor did I say, maybe my writing style needs improvement, that the Ding Dongs or anyone else were in it just for the money. They are in it to be part of a scene. And like Lucas I have been there with punk and 'billy too - when I was a KID, folks. And I would NEVER in my wildest dreams have conflated (good word Spike) them with Tiki.

Lucas, thanks. You get it, Hakalugi gets it, Sabu gets it and I know damn well Bong does even if he sometimes plays music he isn't actually passionate about. Musos do that sometimes. You wanna rock out Tiki style, get to it, boys and girls. Flash those tats and those ironic little goatees and that dyed hair, you silly buggahs. You found a new post-punky hipster way to get shitfaced in public and think yourselves cool - enjoy.

Oh, yeah - we have a LOT to thank SoCal for culturally. The whole world does, doesn't it? The cultural primacy, the global cultural hegemony of SoCal is undisputed to be sure. Thank GOD you are there to teach the rest of us what Tiki really is! :D

And to my friends - and family - in SoCal, you know I don't mean you personally. :)

If I stay, I stay, and I'll stay out of musical discussions. Coming to a fistfight with a gun is no fun anyway. But I don't think I'll stay, and I very much doubt I'll be missed. Go comb your goatees, boys, I hear a quart of rum calling your name.

See: anyone can get personal. Anyone can be reactive. I hate being that way myself, so that really is enough.

[ Edited by: emspace 2011-10-14 20:43 ]

Oh, and just a passing observation: has anyone else noticed Tiki Joe's Ocean seems to be pretty much all samples and loops? I mean, just sayin' - that's not really making music, except maybe in the eyes of some starry-eyed noob on his first session with GarageBand.

But hey - maybe you don't care. Maybe that's good enough. And good enough seems to rule these days.

Well I guess being in bands as far back as 1973 doesn't count as being a musician
then I guess I am not?

emspace, I could argue about much of what you said, but I would just be wasting my time
you are a very closed minded person, you only like what you like and everything else is shit.

I feel sort of bad for you really, funny thing is I don't disagree with some of your points
you just present them is such a rude & vile way, I don't want to hear anything else you are selling.

I guess the Mid-Century mindset of manners & etiquette
did not make the trek to the perfect "Tiki Bar" in your mind.

Some people who like tiki stuff like some other things too.

Is there really more to it than that?

It is possible for so-called tiki people at a so-called tiki event to enjoy a band that is tangentially related to tiki, without triggering a redefinition of the essence of tiki.

Although I could do without the overblown venting, I agree with the impulse to protect the essential definition of an artform from the kind of genre creep that can sometimes come from "fusion". But genre creep is mostly a perception problem affecting analytical activity, and has nothing to do with any particular individual enjoying any particular music in any particular setting. In other words, debating over whether the Ding Dong Devils are tiki music really has nothing to do with whether some people who like TIKI STYLE also enjoy Devils shows.

I think for some people, "tiki music" is more like a shorthand for any music that they see as compatible with how they feel when they're in a tiki mood, be it at an event or their home bar or whatever. For other people, it's more of a specific concept tied to an objective artform, or at least one that they like to think about in objective terms. I'm more in the second category myself. Maybe the parameters of the TC "Tiki Music" forum are more like the first category. I don't see the inclusive list of genres for this forum as posing any kind of threat whatsoever to the real essence. In fact, I've never even interpreted it as suggesting a DEFINITION - it's just a guideline for orderly topical discussion.

This may sound ridiculously obvious, but since TC is a forum attracting many people with shared interests, it works well to establish a music forum with an agreed set of genres that can be considered on topic. With some of the discussion here, you'd almost think that hapa haole has been banished to Beyond. But it's not. And many genres are NOT on TC's tiki music list, which is very important for keeping SOME focus here. Even in those cases, people can still talk about Jimmy Buffett in Beyond Tiki if they really want to. And the rest of us don't even have to look at those topics! If the existence of such discussion causes someone like emspace to experience various bodily functions, I would just suggest that it's the kind of thing that doesn't really need to be shared here.

Of course it would be pointless for third parties to assert that bands like the DDDevils, Hula Girls, or whoever, are in it for the money, or to be part of a scene, or any other conjured up reason. However, I did hear that the Ding Dong Devils are in it for the fame and the chicks. I heard it when I said it just now, and now it's on the web so it must be true.

To sum up my feelings, I just want to say that I have fantastic ears.

-Randy

Edited because I don't have anything nice to say. Take OFf you Hoser, eh?

[ Edited by: The Sperm Whale 2011-10-15 09:19 ]