Tiki's Fair Market Value?

Recently, Benzart asked a question in another thread which is a topic that's never been talked about -- which was something similar to, what would you consider a fair price for this carving?

This got me thinking.

There is somewhat of a standard that a lot of carvers apply to logs, which is $100 per foot. I don't know how this rule came about but that seems to be the norm whether it be a fully detailed Maori or Marquesan masterpiece or a Roadside Jimmy Carter chainsaw piece of crap. They all seem to be priced at about $100 per foot.

I don't get it. If I had the choice (which I do), I would choose the fully detailed masterpiece. Unless of course, the tiki in question held some form of history or is carved by a reputable name, like an old Bumatay or Crissman. In this case, detail or not, I believe the higher cost is justified - even if the tiki shows visible signs of rot.

What makes sense to me is that carvers should sell their tikis for what they think is fair for their time & effort they put into creating it - relative to the type of work being produced. I understand that not counting the cost of materials (wood, varnish/lacquer, stain & tools used), there is significant time and effort put into their carvings. As such, if a carver spent only 5 hours carving a 5-foot Jimmy Carter with a chainsaw, they effectively make about $100 per hour. But if a different carver took that same 5-foot log and spent 20 hours carving scroll detail into the tiki then his effective rate drops to $40 per hour.

In other words, we the buyer end up paying more for a carving of less quality!

What I'm getting at is the spring season is coming up which means more tiki events. Last year, I attended quite a few events where a bunch of chainsawed crap was being produced on-site. These pieces sold for the same price (and in some cases, more) as some of the highly detailed, hand carved masterpieces by some of the great artists on this board -- and I couldn't figure out why.

Is there something happening here that I'm just not seeing?

**Poly-Pop ***

He who dies with the most broken mugs WINS!

[ Edited by: PolynesianPop on 2004-02-12 19:26 ]

In reality the price should be determined by the buyer. If you like it...buy it. If not, walk away. 100 a foot is just a benchmark. I just sold a 6'-6" Bosko for 500, because they wanted it bad and I don't like to haggle too much. That would be about 75 per foot. They're happy, I'm happy and now I can buy more, and they will spread the word.

Now back to my crow.

[ Edited by: jungletrader on 2004-02-12 20:35 ]

I always felt the same way. Some of Mai Tiki's stuff is 8 feet tall, but only the top 4 feet is carved, yet the price is higher than if it was 4 feet tall. Not charging by the foot, but still, taller is more.

OA gets $300+ per foot. But well worth it I think.

And vintage tikis often go for less than $100 a foot.

Part of it is a certain ignorance of buyers I think.

Another carver here was harpin' on me about selling my carvings for 50 a foot (under 100), but I don't care, my stuff isn't that great and I'm happy makin' deals. Each one of mine I sell gives me more encouragement to do better the next time. I'm just happy somebody even wants it.

Pop... name the event and I'll haul my tikis down there... $25-$50 a foot... I can barely get that in Wisconsin...! people haven't a clue here what I'm selling anyhow... "A what?" Which is why I only deal with those in the know or someone with an open mind. On the average I spend between 8-30 hours on anything ranging from 14 inches to 6 feet. And I would feel guilty not putting my all into a carving and trying to sell it... sort of cheating myself just to make a buck. Which is not why I carve them anyhow... I want to share the aloha with people through my work and I feel that once this creation comes out of the wood it is something spiritual... sometimes I feel guilty selling them at all... I would just like to recoop my materials cost...

Most of the time I can't part with my creations either... you spend that much time and effort on something you hate to let it go...

This is a good question. To charge or not to charge. y carvings were always sold one of 2 ways: I carved a Piece and set a price I felt was fair and that I could get and not lose money. Second were the commissions where a client wanted a piece they saw in my bookand were hagglers,They wanted a 600 dollar Pelican for 3oo dollars.I explained I could carve a 300 dollar Pelican and showed them the 300 dollar pelican picture. They would STILL try to get the 600 dollar bird for 300 dollars. I have been out of the loop,no carving for 10 years and coming back I'm going to do things differently.
I finish a piece and set a price for it and it sticks.I'm not going to get sucked into the "Ceap' art for no money. My time is too valubal and my carving time is limited,. I want every piece to be as good as I can possibly make it. Hope it works.

Or I suppose I could carve the head on a 5 foot walkingstick for 500 dollars right?

I hear you, Polypop. I have no answer.

I'm still kicking myself for passing up a set of 6 old style tikis that went up on eBay, I think in December. Priced at $500 opening and provided their shipper's number. I was quoted $300. They were well over two feet high each, not elaborate but quite beautiful if the pictures did them justice. They only got one bidder! I hope they went to a TC'er but still seemed like there should have been a bidding war.

Does someone remember that auction? Was there anything about them that made them worth so little? Certainly the timing of the auction wasn't the best.

Great post Pop!

It all comes down to what the market will bear. It would seem that the consumer public is willing to pay $400-$500 for a 5 foot pole. I think the math went backwards (the carver is thinking...5 foot pole sells for $500 so I guess people are willing to pay $100 per foot.).

I think its also a mental thing. " I am receiving a big and heavy object and therefore it is worth a several hundred dollars".

If you put the same amount of detail or time into a statue that was only 1 foot tall, it is unlikely that you would be able to charge $500 for it to someone who wasn't a passionate art collector.

Additionally, it depends on how well informed the buyer is. For Example, I know that if I wanted a top of the line Crazy Al peice vs. Swap Meet Larry, I would anticipate that it would cost substantially more. Would the uniformed consumer pay the extra for a Crazy Al piece? Im not so sure. They just see a cool pole for their backyard.

Possibly the most difficult thing about normalized pricing is the fact that everyone considers there time to have different value and carve at different speeds.

I am dog slow and still somewhat of a rookie. I cannot use the number of hours I spend as a calculator for cost. I price the piece at what I think is fair for the quality.

As I get better , my prices will increase as long as people are willing to pay a little more.

I price my frames at around $2.00 per inch. A 24"x24" frame would cost about $190. I justified that price by comparing what a frame shop would charge for a custom frame made from machined stock. Luckily frame shops are ridiculously overpriced or my prices would have to be lower. As it stands now, I work on these frames for an average of $6 - $10 per hour. It is clearly a labor of love at that hourly rate.

Hope this helps.

Monkeyman

I'm back! Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!

On 2004-02-12 22:15, Lake Surfer wrote:
Pop... name the event and I'll haul my tikis down there... $25-$50 a foot...

LS, come on out. We'd love to have you! The big one out here is Tiki Oasis in May at the Caliente Tropics. Everybody who's anybody in the world of tiki sets up shop there and just about every big name tiki performer performs at one time or another on stage throughout the whole weekend. Its one HUGE weekend long party.

You gotta go. I'm sure you'll do well with sales. The only challenge will be getting all those logs out here.

When pricing something I ask myself "could I go out and buy the same thing of the same quality from somebody else for this much", I.E. could I buy it back for what I sold it for. Generally that lands me at about 100 a foot. Anything less and I'd almost rather keep the thing and throw it in the bar. Diameter is another question, because when we go over 12 inches there is a lot more surface area that needs to be carved. Never cheat yourself; your time, skill, and effort is worth it's hire. Just don't go too extravagant pricewise and you'll be fine.

P.S. on the question of $200-400 a foot for Oceanic Arts..That's called 49 years of experience, knowhow, and trusted brand security. That's why Maytag washers, Michelin Tires, Curtis-Mathes T.V.'s, and Carhart work clothes cost more than the other stuff..You KNOW you're getting among the best you can get.

Yeah, for that matter, OA should have a plaque or something. Owning an OA tiki, even new, is like owning a part of history.

I think every carver struggles with pricing, and I'm kind of glad the $100/foot mark was set, because I could gauge what to charge. That said, I have a few of my older tikis still lying around, and I could never charge $100 per foot, because I know I'd never pay that much. I kind of think like Basement Kahuna, would I buy it for this price? I'm one cheap bastard too, so I tend to set my price at $80/foot as a generic price, but often lower or raise depending on complexity of the design or log. Sometimes logs weigh so darn much that you have to figure in handling as a price. Also, the time it took to husk off all the frawns/ or bark. When it comes down to it, we're not making that much per hour, like Monkeyman said. If you want to buy tikis for the cheapest possible price, hit me up when its coldest out, since nobody buys tikis when it rains. Supply in demand. I was giving them away at the Rose Bowl in December. I think most carvers will work with you too, especially when they're not busy with orders.

Interesting old discussion... Personally I've always hated that "X dollars per foot" idea.

I think its a good dicussion aswell. I have to wonder, are MMs prices, still that low and now that TikitOny has been selling the mugs and paintings, what does he feel has changed.

I know that there is a Tikishack on the way to Fort Myers beach. Long pole all the way up with a chainsaw cut tiki face at just the top. The guy's assistant, even told me that its just a few simple cuts and that he could learn in a sec. if he wanted to pay attention for a couple of minutes. $350-450 for something like that and I know that they have been there for a couple of years.

But this discussion is good for not just the carvers but appeals to everyone who is selling something. I'm trying to think what I would sell me mug for. I don't even have anything to compare it with. But I could seriously put as much time into a tiny mug then twenty Tikishack $450 tikis.

I'm not a big fan of the per foot rule either. I do think that cost is a real struggle for almost all sellers. I sometimes would rather give my stuff away to people I know and like, but I think my marriage would end pretty fast. I almost always feel a certain amount of guilt when charging people for stuff. I just remind myself to think about the time invested and what that time is really worth. Time spent doing a craft is often time spent away from family. I also think that people who are uninformed sometimes think if it costs more it must be worth more. I have always been treated more than fair with any TCer I've bought stuff from. I just hope they are making what they need to in order to keep going (mentally as well as financially).
Cheers.

I agree; a very interesting discussion & one relevant to anyone making & selling anything, from T-shirts to carvings to ceramics...

A 'fair' price is always something that should be aimed for - fair to both maker & buyer obviously.
(I am speaking in regards to those who create for a living, whether part or fulltime. Hobbiests or beginners can really name their price, cheap or expensive as Im assuming their income/livelihood isnt dependant on sales). Also I am talking about art/craft where there is a degree of handmade-ness/uniqueness/one-off-ness to the craft as opposed to mass production method.

When creating for a living, of course you must build into the price your own expenses: materials/tools/time being the main ones. If these arent covered, you're going to go broke!
An hourly rate is fair enough, but doesnt always reflect in a finished piece. Sometimes a very sucessful piece is made in a short time; sometimes a complete failure is produced that took forever... Obviously if priced under a ridged structure, the former is going to sell quickly/cheaply & the maker feel ripped-off; while the latter is going to sit unsold forever with a huge pricetag attached...

I have found over time that most works will fall into a price 'range' which takes into account the expences mentioned earlier, but then 'adjusted' according to overall success... A particularly successful piece will charged at a higher price than an unsuccessful one, despite which took longer or which is bigger, etc.

There is also the knotty problem of quality or skill; we all know an exceptional work when we see one, one made by the hand of a learned pro. That X-factor hasnt come overnight. The Master of his craft has become that through time and committment & sooner or later became recognised as such. This committment to learning/improving & becoming Great at what they do deserves the right to command greater prices. Often years of sacrifice or study has been the price paid.

How do you judge/quantify your skill? How 'good' are you at what you do? These are the real questions to ask if wanting to set a fair price for creative work & often the pivotal dilemma for an artist.

I have no real answer to this other than 'listen to your gut'! If a finished piece really makes you proud, then that is the one to either keep or stick a big price on. If a piece ultimately disappoints the maker then I believe it better to sell it off cheaply; (covering costs) chalk it up to experience & get on with the next piece. There is nothing worse than having unsold/overpriced 'failures' sitting around to taunt you. Give someone a break; they will be happy at getting a good price; you will be happy at selling a less-than-perfect piece & a 'fair' deal is still struck.

So my answer is: Overall 'success' & your gut-feelings. What was the question again..?? :lol:

Tama

Yes, I am the one who asked that question way back when I first joined TC and began carving again after several years of inactivity. It's a Tough question to ask and equally tough to answer. Pricing is always a cat and mouse game I think and I doubt that anyone ever gets it 100% correct. The word comes back to me that peeps herebrag about how cheep they got their "Benzart", and this from some respectable members..
My thoughts on pricing have always been to sell as low priced as possible so I have nothing laying around waiting to be sold. I don't give anything away, though sometimes the prices may seem that way. For me this is a labor of love and if I were earning a living at it then I would be doing it very differently. As it is I enjoy every piece that I do and I don't worry about selling price until after the piece is done. If it is a pre-determined price, I Still don't let that influence the quality of the piece, or at least I try not to let it. What determines the quaality of a piece? Where do I draw the line to say "I'm Done"? Well, that determination comes from the piece itself. You know there are pieces that you start and you feel really good about, that are going just right and looking tight and then there are pieces that just don't seem to come together all the way. Those last ones, I will quickly finish and let go cheap, but the "Magical" ones, I will spend however much time I feel it takes to do Everything I can to the piece to make it as perfect as possible within the constraints of the material(you Still can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear).
I Still never know how to price a piece so all this does not help a bit. You just have to go with your gut feeling and set a number You can live with. I don't care for the 100$ per foot rule either as I think it is more involved than that. We're not selling Lumber or firewood here(I Hope) Of course I seem to be the wrong person to ask about pricing. However, I am learning that and will be changing my pricing structure as soon as I can figure the structure out.
Any idea what I should sell this Moai for?

Benzart "Any idea what I should sell this Moai for?" $500.00 per foot. cmon, we know he's loaded.

I have been selling my carvings and paintings for over 20 years. There is no magic formula for determining price. Any set price based on size or time should be an insult to any artist. I'm sure this type of pricing is fine for "manufacturers" of a product. Original art is different. A piece of original art is worth exactly what the buyer is willing to pay for it; nothing more, nothing less. I have sold some of my worst work for top dollar because someone "had" to have it. On the flip side, I have sold some of my best work for next to nothing because someone "had" to have it. I have also sold some of my best work for top dollar and my worst for low prices. It all depends on who is interested at the time, where you are with your art or bills, and what you are willing to settle for at that time. I can sell a fish rubbing for $500 to one client and have another who can't offer more than $50 for a similar piece. I can sell a Gman chainsaw tiki for $50 or $200 depending on the day, buyer, humidity, moon phase, or if I need parts for the rail or a new knife or saw chain. Any carver who expects to get XX dollars per hour or per foot is high unless they are doing quick carvings that they make fast and sell in quantity at an inexpensive price (quick masks etc.). On these types of carvings you will generally always come out ahead. If you spend 3 months on a masterpiece carving and sell it for $500 or more, you are likely still going to lose money compared to making a less expensive product in quatity that moves fast during that same time period. I have done both for many years with all sorts of carvings and my gyotaku. Both can be rewarding or suck.

Price/money/success for an artist will change during their artistic journey depending on what they are creating, how "good" it is, and what the market for that type of art is like. It depends on what you want to do. Most artists can't afford to always create top $$ work and sit on it until the right buyer comes along. They need to work on a few masterpieces and then round out their time with "bread and butter" work that appeals to the the masses and is affordable.

Bottom line TO ME.....Yes you can put a dollar amount on size if it is common/basic bread and butter work. Gman chainsaw tikis $50 - $150 depending on size and finish - I can make and sell them all day long. That works out to around 50 bucks an hour for me. Try to apply that same hourly rate to something you work on for 2 or 3 months.... Say you realistically have 80 plus hours in a piece, is it really worth $4,000 now? Probably not. The market will likely let you get $500 to $1,000 for it, and only if it really kicks a$$. One in a thousand artists can make a living selling only their best efforts. Most "working" artists sell bread and butter work to pay the bills and make personal best work on the side.

My 2 cents,

-Gman

*Funny how the more prolific/experienced amongst us agree that there is no magic formula! Even Ben says he probably isnt the man to ask & admits that he's still learning...

Ben: Pricing is one of the toughest aspects of carving for a living, eh? -Sucks when you hear of customers lauding it over a humble deal! It is the same when you see a piece sold on for a whopping profit! Damn.
I dont think people realise that when you are producing everyday, youve also got to look at selling everyday simply in order to recoup some time/money & to stop yourself from drowning under a tiki-tidalwave (or Moai mountain)... The pricing 'adjustment' at the end often falls in the favour of the buyer because no matter how long a piece takes, it can be let down by flaws in the materials or the smallest of 'mistakes'. Those cheaper pieces often take just as long or longer to produce than a perfect piece that has behaved itself throughout the process - where's the hourly rate/$per foot then??
As for pricing the Moai: Im glad Im not in your shoes; thats a toughy!! Perhaps it should go on the amount/quality of feedback/'props' given by those watching..?? Ooh, this one's gonna cost ya Gman!!! :lol:

Gman: Ill give you a dollar for your 2 cents; some good points raised.
Yes, price most definately fluctuates depending on the wieght of bills that need to be paid. Its your work, they're your bills & as an artist you/we have every right to raise or lower prices as we need/want to. There's also nothing wrong with accepting a lower price from the poor-but-deserving. Im sure we've all had that experience before. I have had the odd really nice piece that has been given away; the person it ends up with being more important to me than any amount of cash from a stranger...
You're also right to point out that not many artists really get to produce their very best work on a regular basis. Most have those B&B lines to pay the bills which are 'aimed' at a buying public & only get to 'indulge' their art for rich patrons or at the expence of heat, food etc...

*I raise a glass to those who aim to be one of the 1-in-1000 who make it to Super-Stardom! ching

T3 :)

Some of us are hobbyists, others are augmenting their salaries, even a few are full time, making a living off tikis. Obviously, I'm in the former category, and can only daydream about the latter category one day when I retire.

You just can't quantify carvings on a $$/foot basis. But it's interesting to apply "The Rule" to your sales after the fact:

As an example, I recently sold TWO 16" x 9" dia. tikis to a TC'er as a set for $250 (about $96/foot) - pretty close to "The Rule".

Just prior to that I sold ONE 16" x 9" dia tiki to a stranger (not a tikiphile, just someone looking for some "tropical" art) for $250 - so, double the price ($192/foot). Double "The Rule", what a rip-off!!!.

"The Rule" just doesn't work because every carving is different, and you gotta price it based on how much you put into it and what seems reasonable to ask for it.

I guess one could say, "What's it worth? Whatever you can get.. the Marketplace will dictate." Truth be told, I'll always feel better placing a tiki with some one who really appreciates it, will put it in his/her home or tiki bar, and admire it with friends over rum drinks. That's another factor...

Hell, my wife's just thrilled the hobby pays for itself.

i think the price should always be set by the artist. i've never tried to haggle for art. i've only declined buying something a couple of times because i thought the artist was asking too much, but i think it's an insult to say i'll pay you this much. the artist knows how much time, effort, and materials go into each piece. artists know if they're making great stuff and should charge accordingly. new artists know they can't get top dollar. as an artist's skill increases he can charge more. ben, to me, anything you charge is cheap, cuz your pieces are priceless in the enjoyment they bring. (i guess i'll be paying through the nose when i can score another benzart!) :D

A 'Tiki Carver' at 50:

As a son of a son of carver........

My method of pricing is based on my time and material cost.I have sold 2 foot tikis for 200 dollars and 3 foot tikis for 125 dollars.When I make tikis for market I know what I want to charge before making it.I have sold to retailers and they have a per foot mentality, I base my time to build and costs to fit into that theory.They never get my best work because they won't pay the price.For myself a 2 foot or 4 foot tiki of the same design would take the same time and command similar price.

Interesting topic, I hope someone can answer a question for me...
I've only been carving a little over a year now and I've just started to carve bigger pieces. by bigger, I only mean between 1 and 3 feet max.
I'm getting people interested in my work but don't really know how to put a probable price to a piece. So somebody made me an offer, the offer was +/- 162$ total for five tiki's to sit on ("chairs", if you will) each one about 2 feet (60cm?) tall. Now, I didn't really know how to respond to such an offer, but eventhough I'm only a beginning carver I felt kinda offended.
(she would provide the wood)

Now I'm torn between accepting the offer, getting my work noticed more and in the process build a reputation for selling cheap pieces, or rejecting and sell nothing at all...

Money doesn't make friends

Hopefully someone in here can help me figure this one out

Yubaba: I dont know much about woodworking;ie how long they might take or what other material costs may be incurred (you say she is supplying timber), but some quick maths gives me $32 per piece!? Doesnt sound worth picking up your tools for to me... A bit of recognition is one thing; slave labour another. Your work (the little we've seen; c'mon! :wink: ) is very clean & well concieved & it is obvious that you put some time into all stages.

Give yourself a break; either turn her down or renegotiate. Drastically if necessary! It can be done nicely but be firm about it - this job could lead to other jobs, friends of hers wanting similar deals. Start as you intend to continue; 'getting known' will occur naturally as pieces are put into the world anyway.
-I wouldnt be saying this if I didnt thin your work up to par.

As previous posts on this thread attest: finding your price & market/niche are some of the hardest aspects of creating to sell. You'll get there. I believe like every other aspect of what we do, it is a matter of self-discovery/trail & error. Learning to 'say No' & learning to 'let go' (of good work/bad work, good deals/bad deals...) are vital!

Good luck! Tama :)

For those of you selling....remember to pay all your business liscence fees, 2nd social security, state sales tax, and all the other fun stuff us registered businessed have to do. Especially if you market products online (forums/ebay).

-Gman

Yubaba's dilema seems to be the one reason i've found for using 'the rule'. inexperienced, would-be buyers. ignorance of time/skill level/etc sometimes needs a starting point for negotiations. even at half (rule)price on those five tikis, you'ld be looking at a worthy option.
this is a great and timeless topic.

I haven't sold a piece yet, but hope to in the future. Most of the stuff I have done I have swapped for other tiki art and I have some awesome art in my collection. At this stage I view it as a hobby that will hopefully pay for itself. I'll give tikis to mates/family. You know the guys who always give you a hand with projects or to move or whatever. For other mates I will sell at cost of materials. For general sales I will make some profit. How much depends on the qaulity of the finished piece. Working that out to $/hour rate, well Im better off getting a weekend job packing shelves!

In Australia we can set up a "hobby business", which is perfect for stuff like what I intend to do. If you earn less than $60,000 a year its just the same as doing personal tax (businesses have to do regular tax reports on Goods & Services Tax - GST).

Bump. Some more interest into cost by TIKI DAVID.
I usually charge $80 per foot but I add $50 dollars per foot with detail. So a 2 foot tiki starts out at $160 but with detail it comes out to be $260. What would be detail is anything that isn't part of the design that doesn't make it a tiki. Plain face and headpiece would be no detail. Full torso, legs and arms = detail/per foot. Detailed headpiece would also be detail/per foot. I also add in a material cost for exotic woods. If the customer doesn't understand the difference between exotic wood and palm wood or pine the I just hang my head and sigh.... So if I have a 3ft tiki that had a full figure and fully detailed head piece that's $390. But if it's carved into a beautiful piece of exotic wood that I purchased for $120(including shipping) then it's going to be $510 and the cost of the wood is past onto the customer. Any new thoughts?